 This is Sophie and Bill on Vermont issues, and the program has to do with Disappearances, which showed just three or four days ago in Montpeer to a packed house. Yeah. And... They'll keep coming. We have the great fortune to have Lee and Axe, one of the members who played. We had a great discussion right afterwards, didn't we? Yeah, yeah. Right during the gallery. I enjoyed that as much as the play. Yeah. That was really nice. And the organization is the Lost Nation Theater. So maybe you'd like to say a little bit about yourself, where you grew up, and so on. Sure, yeah. I'm from Columbus, Ohio. I live in Brooklyn, New York now, but I grew up there. I went to high school there at Columbus Alternative High School. I even went to a career center where I studied theater like the first half of the day. Normally, it's like a two-year program, and I went the second year because I only found out about it during my junior year, so of course I missed out on that. But the last year, I spent the first half of the day doing theater, and the second half of the day doing normal high school stuff. But during that senior year was when we had a shadow program. Like you went to a career shadow thing, and I ended up just doing it with the director of that program. So it became a point on Wednesdays that I'd spend the entire time there just doing theater, which is really good because I didn't really know what I wanted to do for a while. So I finally, like, just delved as far into it as possible, and then ended up going after waiting a couple years after high school, ended up going to Audubon College when I first started going there, but throughout it became Audubon University because they really wanted to, well, they added a graduate program. I guess how that happened, but it was really nice. I got four years out of that, and then immediately moved to New York City. And that's where I live, and now I'm hanging out with y'all. Did you go into baseball games? Oh, yeah. We went to the Clippers when I was younger, back when they were still a farm team for the Yankees, actually, where Darryl Strawberry came from. Jack Robinson wasn't playing at that time. No, not at that time. Sad to say it would have been nice to see Jack Robinson. I think you heard a lot about him. Oh, yeah. I mean, I guess there are a lot of things that we should learn about when we're younger, but happily Jack Robinson is one of those people that his name gets spread throughout the ages, just his ability. And the beautiful film about Jack Robinson and his family. Yeah, yeah. Shelfie. Well, I would like to know what drew you into theater. I mean, that's a really sort of gutsy endeavor as an adult occupation, and especially coming to Montpelier. I mean, Vermont's pretty out there, and the play that you participated in is a very sort of secluded Vermont history that's been divulged a little bit. So were you drawn to this area? Were you invited? Was there something specifically that called you to this part? Yeah, Kim Bent specifically called me to this part. And you had worked together before? Not directly necessarily. When I first moved to New York, I mean, the reason I did theater is just because I like being on stage. That was part of it. And at first I'd gotten into it by doing carpentry. Like I came up, I went to some of the theater classes, and then someone said, here, take a hammer. And it was destruction day for one of the sets before. And we just get to beat up on a set. And I was like, this is a lot of fun. I want to do this more. And so I did for a while. And then one day they were doing Little Shop of Horrors. And they were like, hey, we need someone to be, I think the character's Patrick Martin, who comes in at the very end and tries to buy the plant to then sell it all over the world. And then suddenly you'd have this like horrific plant all over the planet. And he's like, no, no, we can't do it. But I swear I messed up every single line. I swear I didn't say it loud enough, or I shouted everything. Like everything was wrong. I was sweating bullets the entire time. But I loved it. And that's kind of when I started going on stage rather than just backstage. But I do both. I mean, I still work as a carpenter now. Almost specifically for theater. But anyway, fast forward to this. And when I first moved to New York, the first professional gig I got, was for Gus Kye Conan in the Peterborough Players of Peterborough, New Hampshire. And I've worked with them for about six seasons now. And I'm actually about to work with them again for their winter season. They're doing, it's a wonderful life radio play. And I'm going to do that in December. I don't know if I'm supposed to mention that, but here I am. And last year, they needed someone to come in for sense and sensibility. And Gus and Kim know each other from working together many times here. And I think also there, but I know here. And they asked if I would have done it. There was also another intern that they had asked at the time. And both he and I auditioned for Kim and got in. And then this year, and that was a show that Kathleen directed. And then this year, Kim hit me up with an email, because they apparently had an actor for the part. But for whatever reason, decided that he couldn't do it. And so he had to back out. And so I got into it and tried to learn all those lines as quickly as I could. You did really well. There's a lot of lines. So the disappearance is the play. And it literally has to do with the prohibition. Can you tell us the connection between disappearances, the title of the play, and prohibition? I mean, I can't say that I'm an expert on it. But, I mean, the play itself, how it's written, is not necessarily about prohibition. But it's definitely stemmed from the concept of prohibition, because I play Quebec Bill Bonhomme, who's kind of like, as Kim put it, like the engine that keeps the entire play rolling, because he just doesn't stop anything. He just keeps going the entire time. And his entire impetus is basically just transporting whiskey illegally, like whether it's moonshining or hijacking whiskey. He's ready to go. Like, let's do it. And across Lake Memphermagog. It's not just like any old place. It's like a huge desolate lake on the far side of a national boundary. Yeah. It's like really... Well, it's definitely like taking it from Canada to points all over New England. It's really like that one point in the play, like that's his like dream, as he's like, I don't want to give it away, like he's like a fever dream where he's like, I'm going to put whiskey everywhere. We're all going to drink and be happy again one day. And it definitely stems from the concept of prohibition, the idea that people aren't allowed to drink because it's forbidden. And I haven't gotten to that point in the book. Again, I was reading it at the beginning and then I found that it was kind of just mildly distracting just because then I was paying attention to like, you know, when you read all the Lord of the Rings books and you're watching the movies and you're like, wait, where's Tom Bombadil? Where's that weird guy who dances around in the hills and is kind of a deity within his own thing, started paying attention to all the little things. It's an adaptation. So it's going to have its own quirks. I was like starting to focus on the small stuff. I was like, I can't do that right now. So I'm going to read it, finish it. But prohibition definitely is, I mean, this play wouldn't be happening without that. It's definitely a response to that concept because it's, when you've got authorities in that show, it's almost in direct conflict with the concept of drinking. It's heavily thrown in the idea of drinking, but anytime you find an authority figure within the play, they're almost actively against it every single time. The prohibition was, I think, was clear to the audience that this was a prohibition period and illegal? I don't know, to be honest. You were saying that there were papers passed out. I haven't read those papers myself. The handout. The handout, the little handouts that the audience gets. But I mean, it is mentioned that it's 1932, 1933. That was the period. Which was the period, because it lasted from about the 20s to about 1933 Prohibition era. Funnily enough, where I went to college was Westerville, Ohio, which is where prohibition began. Is that a dry town? It's a dry campus. I know that. The town is not dry, but the campus is right in the heart of it. And that is dry. I mean, you know, when you get college people, it's almost built into the system here in America to drink. And so even though you've got a dry campus, you can actually find yourself smuggling alcohol into your room. Like people did it all the time. I think they're slowly moving their way to a wet campus, which I don't know if that's necessarily what they should do. There's almost something to be said about not necessarily going against the rules, but like when you do have things you're not supposed to do, you then do have to be a little more careful about how you're doing the things that you're doing and have to be a little more aware of yourself, especially in this culture that we live in right now, where I'm going on a tangent here, but we live in a society that's based on Puritan values, right? That comes from Puritan New England, where like you could only do so many things. And that concept of taboo has continued within our society. There are only so many things that you are allowed to do. It is very like controlling, one could say. And the more you tell people what not to do, the more of course they're like, I really want to go do that now. I haven't ever done that before. I'd really like to try that. And the same is true, almost more specifically true for young people because the more you say you can't do that, the more they're like, I really want you now. Whereas if it's like a controlled like allowed thing, but we can get on that topic all day long, like how they do it in Europe, how they've got different dependency programs in different European nations actually have less addictions because it's not illegal and they have a way of dealing with it. They treat it more like a disease rather than an addiction. It's something that a person's dealing with rather than something that they're not supposed to do and they should know better. Was it Ohio State where you went? I didn't go to Ohio State, but I grew up next to Ohio State, which if there are any Ohio people watching, I apologize, but those OSU fans, if you live next to them, when they lose or win a home game, I'm sorry, I don't like being around y'all. No, I didn't like football for the longest time because I grew up next to those people. They riot and now the rest of the world knows, or at least Vermont. Do you think they did a similar thing when prohibition reared its head there? I don't know if there was any smuggling of alcohol that happened. I know the Great Lakes were always a venue for that, but did it go westward that much or was it...? I feel like it kind of went everywhere. I guess I'm not a... Are there stories of it in Ohio that you heard as a child? When I was growing up, Disappearances was like a bedtime story. Oh, yeah? Yeah, my father would read it to us. Oh, cool. And so I always knew that this was part of Vermont history and that it was dangerous and that it was forbidden. People would do it anyway, but it was for money, for survival. That was the standard excuse. And I wonder, do you feel that the play dealt with that in a realistic way from a Vermont perspective? Yes, your farm is struggling. Oh, yeah. Maybe there isn't enough business education in the community so people can sell their potatoes instead of feeding them to their cows. You know what I mean? Make their own gin. Sure. You know what I mean? There's some interesting questions that the story sort of outlines. Oh, no. It's definitely one of those things that they do because of money. Like even the character who, when he was younger, did do a lot of moonshining and a lot of drinking. What is moonshining? Distilling, right? Distilling illegally and then also transporting it from point A to point B. I believe the moonshine itself is more from the carrying perspective. Get under the light of the moon. I'm pretty sure is where that term came from rather than the actual distilling of it. But of course, because it's illegal, they're making it stronger because you're only going to get so much. So you get more bang for your buck if you get one shot that knocks you on your butt. Right. Did you ever read The Education of Little Tree? No. That has fabulous indigenous moonshine story in it. Oh, wow. And it's older as well. It's probably from that era of the 1920s to the 1930s and being poor and smuggling and trying to do these things very secretly in the woods at night. It's very interesting. I think it's a lot more widespread than history tells us. Did you ever find other examples, Bill, that talked about prohibition or about the struggles of getting alcohol around? Well, I know. It was a major battle and it was prohibition, but then there was a heated argument as to whether it should be repealed or not. So the prohibition is one part and then the repeal of prohibition was another story. Yeah. And was that something that you were able to follow a little bit? Well, I wasn't around at that time to show that, but I'm sure it was very much part of the culture in the United States. So what about the audiences in sports? Were they more unruly? What do you think about the audience of sports audiences in Ohio? The only audience for sports that I can speak to is definitely OSU. And I understand there's a lot of, because it has a lot to do with pride and a lot of like hometown pride, because it really only happened when it was home games, when they played in the OSU stadium. And it did not matter. We nor lose. Flip a car, set something on fire. I'm sure that in their eyes they were looking at it as a celebration. Unfortunately, more often than not, it gets out of hand to a violent degree. Because of the alcohol, right? Because of the alcohol, yeah. But also, but like not just the alcohol. Like if it were just the alcohol, it's also just, there's something to be said about that young alcohol-fueled, adrenaline-inspired like energy of just seeing like, Martin Martin, and at the exact same time, because that's winning, but then losing, it's like, I'm so mad, we just lost. And I have gotten like for some reason, maybe because I grew up next to this and I wasn't a big fan of football or one could say sports, like I just didn't necessarily understand how sports happened and where it came from, like why someone could get so invested in a team that heavily, I kind of like stepped back. But I've seen it with my friends. I've seen it with other sports teams. Who really loves the Detroit Tigers. And I've got another friend who really likes the Detroit Lions. Like I like sports and I get it now, having been able to step away from it. I can see why a person enjoys it. I haven't quite understood how a person can get that fanatically invested. But yeah, I don't know why necessarily, other than it's a cultural thing, but then it's also a cultural thing to drink to excess at a young age. Like we have gotten to a point where in college that's kind of what you do. And that leads to a whole other host of different things. And that goes back to the whole taboo thing, like you don't drink until you're of age. And because a lot of people do end up going to college while they're underage, end up doing it. And because it's considered an acceptable thing in college, that's where all these things kind of come to a head. So, I don't know, there's a lot of, the prohibition has part to do with it, but I think part of it is just our ability as a society to deal with alcohol and be able to say what's enough and be able to say what's a good time to learn it. Because the more you tell a child, no. And some people just say, yeah, okay, no. But I would say more often than not, you're going to get someone who's going to be like, they're keeping something from me and I got to know what it is. Well, it was interesting in the Bonhomme story because he had been sober since the day his child was born. And so his son was now helping him with this specific task and the way that you played the character was really beautiful because you would just amp up that energy, just a hair, just every scene, just a little bit. And so then by the end, even though you were drinking in pain, right? I never drank in the show. You didn't? No. I guess I thought that at the end, like on the last leg, maybe you had taken. A lot of drinks were passed around in the play. A lot of people took sips from imaginary alcohol. But Bonhomme never did. Never did. That's one of the lines he has in the final scenes is like, I never took a sip, not a single sip. Well, I was just going to say, it's interesting how that alcoholic energy and thrive for adventure followed you through the story in this very, like not only were you chasing the money, but the alcohol was chasing you. Oh, totally. Kind of, you know, like perpetual symbiosis kind of thing. It was this kind of thing. Yeah. It was really, really well played, I thought. And a very good example of maybe what happens, like you're saying, when a person goes to college or gets involved in sports or something that's bigger than themselves, that they have no control within, but they have this small interest that they can pursue about it and maybe come ahead. What were you going to say, Bill? What we were talking about earlier about it, and probably most of it is in our country, but if you want to go to see some really games, go to other countries and see how really those soccer games are. Oh, yeah. That's true. I'm not saying there's much difference. We just put more importance on football, whereas they put more importance on football. Soccer. But soccer. But ours is American football versus football, you know. But yeah, I think it's just as unruly. Rugby can be the exact same way. I definitely get that. You ever play the game? No. I played soccer back in middle school, and occasionally just for fun, but not that often. But no, I never played rugby. So can I just ask, do you feel that there's a message for today or like some part of the story that's relevant to today's shenanigans with politics or economics of sort of broad sense that carries through? I do. I'm not... It was something that it took me a minute to find relevance to. Because I mean, you know, it does have certain things that... There's a lot of things that are going on today that it kind of doesn't have, unfortunately. But it does have... It has an interesting message. It has... Because you basically watched this person... Sorry for ruining it for people who haven't seen it. You can turn off now. But it's basically one of those things. It's like you watch this guy just have the most optimism without knowing what he's doing, but wanting to go back to a time when he knew what he was doing, when things made more sense to him, and he's trying to go back to that. And as he's doing it, he slowly just destroys everything around him. He doesn't know how to run his farm. He doesn't know how to... One of the main things that every farm around him is doing is sugaring maples. And he cut his down so that he could buy hay to feed cows for the last season. And now he doesn't have maples, and he doesn't have hay for the cows for this season. So you basically start out... His entire family and farm is at a disadvantage. And they even at the very beginning of the play go into how well respected a group of people they were back when his great-grandfather and his great-great-grandfather were in charge of everything. And now they're just this slowly decrepiting farm. And he keeps trying to go back to the time as when they were making money, back when things were really good, when he understood what he was doing. And as they continue on the adventure, it is fun. Things are interesting, and he keeps a positive attitude, even as he's dying from a bullet hole wound in his leg that's festering and he can't feel anything in his leg anymore. You just see the slow decline, and I think it does have an interesting tail to it and one that is necessary. I think it's just it's also... There are other things that are also going on in today's world with minorities and women and things that it could speak to maybe a little more, but the story is also not about that. I just think that there are also other stories that can involve those things more, that part of me wishes that this also did. The female characters in it are quite strong. I mean, that part is very nice to see. The women really have no sense of loss or not sense of loss, but no sense of fear of loss. They have the fear of loss, but they're not looking at it. They are strong female characters. I feel like to exist back in that time, as well as today. But when there are even less rights for women, you have to be a strong person to exist in there and make a living on a farm. But, yeah, Christine and Lara, who are female actresses, they're very good. They're great on stage. Well, drinking was... Women in the first instance took the lead in its opposition to liquor because it had a way of breaking up the home. And so then the whole question of passing the law to outlaw it, and then the repeal of liquor as a fight in the 1930s was until the 1930s that liquor was unlawful. And in the 1930s it became legal to drink. Right. I mean, that part definitely resonates in the play because Lara, who plays my character's wife, I guess I didn't need to say her name, but the character itself is telling me not to drink anymore. Her character was the reason that he stopped drinking in the first place. She gave him the ultimatum. Do it. You've got a kid now. It's us or the whiskey. Choose it. Yeah. So it looks like our time is about up. Are there any other pieces that you guys want to add? Thoughts, details, secrets. Love each other. The only thing I would add is that drinking was a women's issue and a homebreaker. And if anyone took the lead on drinking it was the women of this country. Yeah, yeah. That's true. And part of it was because I think it just became obvious that people couldn't control themselves while drinking. It's one of those things that really does require a large amount of self-control that when you're doing it you need to know what's too much. And there are people who have fun and drink a fair amount and whatnot, but then there are people who drink too excess. That is not uncommon in a lot of places. I was looking up Finland the other day because they've got so many things that are just really, really great about that country. Their education is through the roof. They're all constantly scoring high. But one of the biggest problems they have is alcoholism. And you'd think with people who know better and also live a peaceful life that that wouldn't be, but that is not the case. So is there any control on drinking in your college since you went to? Oh, yeah. We were a dry campus. We were not supposed to be drinking. I didn't drink until I turned 21. I turned 21 right before my sophomore year of college. So that happened. Well, you're a bonhomme. So we like you sober. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Good job. Enjoy your play very much. Thank you very much. Leon Axt. Thank you. Thank you, Sophie. Thank you.