 Now if you can hear me, thank you for being here with us at this new event on quality in e-learning, the event is offered by Eden within the network of academics and professional proposals for professional development. I have a brief, very brief presentation just to remind all of you about what we do as network of academics and professionals within the Eden framework within our association. So as you know, every other Wednesday during the two semesters, we have the possibility to support individual members through the possibility to participate in our webinars in particular, which are so much appreciated and welcomed by the community. The network for academics of academics and professionals is of course devoted to establish a relationship with the membership is coordinated by a steering committee and actually our keynote today has been part of the network of academics and professionals steering committee for a long time. The network for academics and professionals of course provide information for members and opportunity for professional actions. It helps members to build their own portfolio. It promotes communication, as I was saying, networking, increase coherence of Eden as learning community. That's what we really want and it helps of course finding partners within the membership to develop research and research projects in particular. Here you have a picture where all of us are represented. I see that also Don Olcott is online at the moment and is part of our steering committee. Also Alfredo should be somewhere. Alfredo Soeiro, Elga Dorner, Wendy Chouni, Aspen Gorsgaard, Sorensen and Alastair Krillman. During the various sessions you will have the opportunity to meet the other members of the steering committee who will participate in hosting these events from time to time. Here you have a picture of the members area where I really suggested support you in participating, giving your information, being part of the community. And so taking part in the area, in the devoted area. There are different benefits in being part of our community, being active part in our community. Of course, as I was saying, being active and having the possibility to communicate with the other members, access the Eden database. As member institutions you can delegate up to 30 individuals in the net. You can attend conferences at reduced fees, establishing partnerships, free access to electronic versions of Eden conference proceedings, use the logo, have, you know, receiving regular updates, news flashes about what's going on within our community. Of course, Pucci's discounted rate, our publications have access to the online bulletin board. So there are so many advantages of being part of such a community that you really need to participate and be part of that. We have been working hard in the recent years, time in improving our offer to the membership. We have been trying to be active in establishing relations and listen to members' ideas and support interaction, especially through webinars as this one, but also through our Eden chats that are a good opportunity to exchange ideas, links, researches, even if in a brief space, in a limited space, but it has been proved to be very effective. I just want to remind you of the European distance learning week that, as every year, has been organized and where NAP, Network of Academics and Professionals, is of course taking part and offering a devoted space. If you go to the website, you can find the indication of the various appointments during the week, from November 11th to November 15th. Within that week, we will take part in different events, but there's one specifically devoted to and offered by NAP, Network of Academics and Professionals. I don't want to steal more time to have Bao is there, and I thank her so much because she is in Turkey, she's away from home, and actually she is at the conference, and she just ended another keynote. So thank you so much, Abba, for giving us this opportunity and for offering this webinar of yours own quality in learning. Thank you so much, and the word to you. Thank you. Thank you so much, dear Antonella, for first for your kind invitation and asking me to give this webinar on behalf of Eden NAP. Yes, I have been in Turkey for the moment, and I have just given another keynote presentation about quality and online learning, and the challenges ahead. So also all of you who are here present today will welcome to you. I think I have seen all the names already and have greeted you personally, personal person as well. So very much welcome. It's a great pleasure for me to take part in those Eden NAP webinars, and I do it with great pleasure. As Antonella said, I have been in the Eden NAP Steering Committee for some years. I'm now in the Eden EC Executive Committee, and I'm also in the Eden, sharing the Eden Special Interest Group about technology-enabled learning and quality enhancement. So we will have this webinar for approximately one hour, and I will give some time in the end, of course, to have a discussion and time for questions, but you also are very much welcome to write your questions in the chat, and I will try to keep an eye on that. First of all, is my voice good for you? I can continue like this? It's good? Okay, I continue. I would also like to remind you that later tonight we have an Eden chat, a follow-up from this webinar. So you are most welcome back in some hours, and maybe someone is coming for, yes, for the Eden chat. We Eden NAP used all these tweet chats as well, and I think it's a very good opportunity to have it directly after the webinar, because then there are more time to discuss things and to share links and to share ideas, etc. Yes, I think you are ready for the feedback. I'm just seeing here what the Secretary is writing about the tweet chats, and I have prepared for that some questions. So it is like if we have some questions, we discuss, and then we discuss lively, and as it is a tweet, we don't just have those signs which are limited. Okay, by that, so I will welcome you all again, and I hope we will have a nice discussion, and I look forward to collaborate and to hear your contributions. I am from Sweden, from Lund. I have a longer experience from Lund University, but also many of the other universities in Sweden. I left five years ago, so now I am an independent researcher and consultant, both at national level, but mainly actually at the international level, and I do a lot of work for Eden, which I do with great pressure, and I also work with the ICDE, the International Council for Open and Distance Education, and I work with the EADTU, which is the European Association for Distance Teaching Universities, and my special area is about the quality related issues in open online learning and e-learning. I also do some work for ISO, and both at national level, but also on behalf of Eden actually. Yes, I think most of you who are here today, I think you know me and know what I'm doing and following me. So the agenda for today is to, first of all, set a scene. I will present something about open online learning and e-learning, about personal responsibilities, about formalities versus process-based quality assurance and enhancement. I will argue that we need to redefine the quality issues, and really strongly, really look at the questions like the elephants' five best friends, what, why, who, whom, when. And I also will give some perspectives on the different kind of levels, the nano, micro, meso and micro level, and also about the current discourse and quality and how we can work on sustainable quality and education and e-learning, open online learning. So I hope you are fine with that. And as I said, connecting to this, I have prepared some questions for the Eden chat later tonight, so it will continue. As opposed to set a scene, we're all facing those three global challenges about demography, about globalization and digitalization. And those three I mentioned, I mean, you can't go to any conference today without mentioning those ones. Demography is because we are really changing the age of the people, people are living longer, people are doing education for a longer time, people are, like I'm learning, are emphasized, and people need to go back and forth to universities or other educational sectors. And then we have globalization. People are really mobile today. First of all, you're not just working in living in your own city or village or, you're not even in country, you need to learn wherever you are. People are traveling to a very high extent and they are living in different kind of regions, continents, and still they need to continue their education. And then of course we have the digitalization, which really is a huge issue and will really change a lot of things in our societies and also when it comes to learning. And we'll come back to that more in detail. But this is the background. And also about the future. The kids today, they have grown up with all this kind of digital devices and the digital area. So they have different kind of demands that we had when we were a child and when we entered the university. And we're often talking about the future, but actually the future started from yesterday. So we have to work not just for the future, so to say, but we need to act today. And that is urgent. That is urgent because the UNESCO and the United Nations have raised the SDG goals and they have especially one dedicated for education. And that is number four. And that means that education needs to be accessible for all by 2030. And that is just 10 years ahead. And the corpillars are about access, access to education. Access not just in time and space and the path, but also to have really access by preferable open resources to get all the information which are available. And then another key issue is about the equity and inclusion to get everyone on board. Quality is one of the issues. And it's so important. So it's actually an own corpillar. And life from learning I have talked about already. That means that we really need to organize and to offer educational, educational offers and possibilities throughout life, throughout the lifespan. From early kids to, yes, until your day. So it's not just a special group who are life from learning. It is all of us. And then the last one is about the gender and equality. And education is so important. So actually it has an effect on all the other 16 SDGs. And that was the reason why they decided to have a special one on education. And I never talk about quality nowadays without mentioning this because it is so crucial and so important to bear in mind and have as a background. And then also we have the fourth industrial revolution who also will change a lot over what, how we work, how we perform, how we live, how we communicate, how we perform, how we relate to each other. But also in to highest extent, how we are learning. That is also changing a lot as there are so many new possibilities for learning. Sorry to say, but I think this area is not so much discussed as the other one. Nowadays it is, I mean, it's coming for all of us to use our mobile whenever and to whatever kind of issues we need to do. We book our hotels, we see Netflix, we book our Uber taxis and then we get food and we get, I mean, everything is online nowadays. Everything is mobile and we have changed a lot of patterns. So there is actually saying that there need to be some kind of Netflix for education as well and then what that, what now that can be. Why is it important to talk so much about the open online learning and e-learning? The main reason is because it is about social justice. And we also need to talk about the big picture of open education at all kind of levels. Micro, meso, micro and nano. And also there are different perspectives of the economical, culture and political perspectives. And there are different kind of scenarios for that. So when we talk about quality, it is at all those levels and that's why I often got a question. So what is quality and what is good quality? It's not an easy question to answer because it depends quality for whom, quality at which level, quality from which kind of perspective. So there are many questions before you can actually say what is good or better or best. However, there is a very nice model from the European Commission about open education, which shows how you need to think about it as an ecosystem. This one about 10 dimensions of open education has four transversal dimensions and that is leadership, strategy, technology and quality. And then the core dimensions are about content, pedagogy, recognition, collaboration, research and access. So each of them are interconnected, both between them, but also for example leadership is a question on how you deal with content for example and open content. And also leadership is a question on how you perceive quality and what kind of quality strategies you have. So they are all interconnected and that means that you need to have this holistic perspective and to see the ecosystem. Actually this model is very useful because not just because there's a lot to read about it, but rather recently the European Commission have done come out with a self-evolution too. So you can actually measure your own performance within your institution on all those dimensions. I myself have been involved in the issue of the quality area, so I worked together with European Commission with that. But it is a good tool if you would like to benchmark yourself where you are at and what you can do to improve or to enhance the quality in your organization. The title for this presentation was eLearning and I think it is important to see what we're talking about because eLearning was I mean the word in the beginning of the 80s and we are still talking about eLearning but eLearning has changed a lot during those almost 20 years. And there's also different definitions if you talk about eLearning in the educational sector or if you talk about eLearning in the more commercial and corporate sector. I think you can just read yourself. Here are some definitions from the university but just to summarize we used to talk about eLearning that means that learning is true digital technology and one-on-one means. And that is rather wide so it can be anything and nothing. We also talked about blended learning and some people say that that is maybe most educational sectors they have the use of blended learning today and that is a mix about classroom, face-to-face education and eLearning. So it's also a form of eLearning. If you are more interested about that I wrote a report on behalf of ICDE last year to get the state of the art about blended learning. So that is also a concept we use when we talk about eLearning. Another concept is ubiquitous learning and it's also hybrid learning. So there are and also mobile learning used to be mentioned in those in this context so we need to know what we are talking about. We are doing a lot of work in EDAN on those issues. I mentioned that I'm sharing the EDAN special interest group on tell on quality enhancement and tell is another concept we use when we talk about eLearning. Sometimes it used to be a more wider and broader perspective and this is the definition by Commonwealth of Learning that tell includes a wide range of technologies for teaching and learning, online access, mobile devices and low cost technologies such as audio, video and radio, TV etc. I don't know you are here in the audience which kind of concept you are more familiar with or if you use everyone at the same as they are similar. We can discuss that. We can welcome to write in the chat if you have any ideas about it. This will also be discussed to you in the chat tonight. However although we talk about online learning and eLearning or whatever concept we use, there are strong initiatives not at least from the European Commission that maybe we shall stop to talk about it as a special area because online learning and training today is not just a simple matter of digitalization. It is the way learning is carried out today. The European Commission Ferrari stated in June at the conference I participated in that we need to see the shift from digital learning to learning in a digital world and that means that no one needs any longer for digital strategies or digital quality enhancement or whatever because it is about learning in a digital world and strategies in a digital world. So that makes also the sense that we need to change our perspectives. Another issue that we need to change our perspective is personal learning because today universities and school educations are offering a lot of things and courses or degrees or whatever it is which they think are needed out there but that is not the case any longer and that's not at least from the corporate sector and the labor market because as you know many companies nowadays they have their own academy because they would like to educate their own staff so to say with a special skills and attitudes and values and context but they would like to have people who are social attractive and they are entrepreneurs who are public and manage problem solving and a lot of soft skills. So the question is very much if education is not aiming to educate people to get some kind of degree to get some kind of job what is the purpose of education and then we need to organize and when we talk about quality we need to focus on the needs to equip students with skills and attitudes and competencies so they can become active and responsible lifelong learners and engaged citizens because engaged citizens are needed in the society in each of our countries to make a difference. So what is the role of education and that is also a question about we talk about quality and how we measure quality. The European Commission have also come out with or manifested the key competencies which are needed in the digital society and in the 21st century. I think you're all familiar with this kind of image that are both about the subject of such it is about literacy, it is about cultural awareness, it is about citizenship, entrepreneurship, etc. more so called soft skills and they also need to be integrated within a course or within a model or whatever it is. I think we have seen this this image before so we're not going too much into it but I mentioned a personal learning. Today there are more demands and higher demands that the individual as such they need to learn what they need and anywhere anytime by anyone. So with personal learning it's more about that the learners are picking what they are needed to get the passion of learning and not just that with personalized learning to get offers from the educational settings. Stephen Downer who I think all of us know more or less and have met many times he has a very interesting distinctions between those. Personal learning is more like go to the marketplace and you pick your own things and then you can prepare your food at home or together with friends or whatever where personalized learning is more like to choose from a menu with some kind of fixed dishes and that is what educational institutions actually are doing. They are offering courses, they are offering models, they are offering something. So that is also a question of quality. How can we embrace the issues of personal learning within our educational systems? And also we have difficult learning spaces of course informal and informal learning and not at least we have the issue of engagement and that is a real quality aspect because when you are engaged here you can see Kate at home back she's from Sweden as you know but she learns a lot by herself because of her engagement and she learns a lot of things which she really can't do in school. I mean I'm not saying that everyone should be like her but I'm saying that if you have some kind of engagement you can almost learn everything and then if you have the passion of learning then you also can learn everything so that means that quality is an issue of how we can how we can offer engagement learning activities and learning environments. Snimo will come back to you more to talk about what are we talking about when we talk about quality. This is some kind of background which is important to have as a framework when we're talking about quality because it is embedded. So we used to separate between norm-based versus process-based approaches. A norm-based is more like you know about there are different kind of standards that different kind of dimensions that different kind of indicators it is often by also by quality assurance agencies or quality assurance for higher education for example if someone is coming from some kind of agency someone from above so to say and make some kind of measurement is this ghetto is it bad as it fulfills the standards with special indicators while process-based quality enhances more about enhancement is not what has been done it is what should be done like a process and so that is also some kind of difference when we are talking about quality what do we really mean. Me and my research team we did a study in 2015 and we studied quality models around the globe and so this is described also in this report from my CD because it makes sense to see how they are different if it is more like assurance as I said or if it's more like benchmarking more about quality enhancement more about guidelines frameworks etc so the question is how can we make it sustainable as well it's not just as I said I was saying the more norm-based you have more ticking in boxes and then that's maybe not so sustainable you need to ensure that everyone working in the context of education or in the institution need to have have and feel the quality by hands and in the heart and in the head I can give you one example of that I was a work as a quality reviewer I have done three years ago I did a review for universities in Indonesia and I would do that again in December because they have to renew their quality label every third year for my CD and over there last time universities the book has they have half a million of the students and they have 1700 islands and they have around 40 learning centers on the largest islands and we work with focus groups all kind of staff students alumni we also visited those learning centers on the islands and I have never ever been at an institution where when whoever I met everyone had quality by heart by mind and by hands everyone knows exactly what was going on with the institution and what was the the focus and how they could contribute to the common work for the whole university I think you have been in the same situation which I have been many times on you know it's not my department is we have a reorganization we have a new boss we have that and that and they are you know I have excuses all the time why things are not functioning but that was not the case at university the book yes which I mentioned because they had a quality as a core issue at the university and it was in their culture so I think the culture is very very very important for you talk about quality it's not just about taking boxes it is about develop a culture and that is why everyone is included and not at least the manager and leadership you remember that this model I showed you earlier on about the 10 dimensions where leadership have an impact on all the other kind of dimensions dimensions we're not saying that the leaders are the the only one but they're very important and in this case of university book as for example director she was very keen to involve each and every one to build the quality culture of the university okay so so what do we mean by quality there's also a lot of definitions this is the definition is of course the quality is in the eyes of the bill beholder and that is the easiest one and the more complicated one is about that it is about compliance and consumer protection it is about enhancement or improvements as we discussed that is about repetition so again first we had many definitions about e-learning then we have also many definitions about quality so we needed to understand what we are talking about and then we come back to Sir John Liniel I think also most of you know him he come out with this the iron triangle in 2013 you see the triangle they have three sides and it is about excess it is about quality and it's about costs and if you extend one of those then the other will change the shape so this is rather easy for example if you extend access more education to more people you have to scale it then of course costs and quality maybe they haven't been changed as well and vice versa for the other ones so you need to have some kind of balance and this shows again very easy how you need to see the ecosystem because if you change something in one end there will be changes in the other ends as well I mentioned the even say can tell on quality enhancement or at several times and the other sake is aimed to advocate and work for the for a new in the quality agenda in education and that is one reason of course we have this webinar and the chat later on and we'll have also had other webinars on this topic to to advocate for it but our strong belief is that the tell can facilitate facilitate to promote the goals for SDG for unequity equality and equality I'm referring again to Anjushka Ferrari the commissioner she strongly emphasized that there are new the strong needs for new teaching and learning methods and there are also needs for new pedagogical approaches like open pedagogy for example and then maybe we'll also use subjects and disciplines due to the digitalization and globalization and change demography those global changes and not at least as the working life is changing that much so maybe there will be need there's a need to have a have other kind of subjects for some other universities and also maybe other kind of contents for example model those more about the 21st century skills on the I am called them and core skills for the 21st century for the 21st century here I mentioned this report again what we came up with was that most of those 40 models were quite similar although they came from different kind of continents and different kind of educational sectors but there are where some common issues and some common dimensions first of all they need to be multifaceted they need to serve different kind of purposes as quality as we have been discussing our scene at different kind of levels and also it they need to be dynamic to embrace all those kind of new things for example we are now facing with the actual the intelligence and organization and gamification and yes you can make the list rather long and also it needs to be mainstreamed and to to build this as event as I talked about the university the book is about the the culture of the quality to each and everyone who's working within an organization and of course they need to be representative and multifunctional so some of those common issues for all those over 40 plus bottles they both mentioned the macro level meso level micro and nano level and we talk about macro level it's mainly on the national level for example author or thoughts for high education or the school sector or even from the government meso level is more for the institution while micro level is more for the for the course and nano level is for the individuals as each of us are bearing the quality culture but all those 40 models they had six or three areas which were in common and that was and you can see here that this is similar with open education models with the 10 dimensions it is about leadership management strategies it is about the course as such curriculum course delivery course design it is about the support for students and for staff so again if you can have whatever kind of high quality on a course but if the student support or the staff support are limited you will not say this because the quality is like that that nothing is as strong as the weakest link so other weak links for competence professional competence development for example then it would be very hard to have good quality in a course and the same if you can have the best lms ever but if the support or the infrastructure for for running it are failing then it will fail and students will complain but what was also interesting and what we have worked towards the sensor this this study is to see from the learner's perspective and learners are demanding a lot of other things that maybe the institutions are offering they are demanding flexibility they are demanding transparency in e-learning so they can know what they can take responsibility for and what they can manage and what they can orchestra themselves the near course to feel trust to the course and to the course provider it need to be accessible of course in all means and those are just some of the dimensions and what is seldom they are mentioned in as indicators in quality metrics however um and yeah the european association for quality assurance in higher education you know they have they're working with this um what's european standard standard guidelines since 2015 and the most universities in europe at least they are following them but what they have done the last year is to have um they had a working group about the considerations for quality assurance of e-learning provision and actually the background for that was that um there was a project with together with ed to you and with enka about quality in e-learning so actually these considerations are based very much about um from the excellence which is a quality framework by ed to you um maybe some of you went we had our webinar when we had a special webinar about those considerations it was last year i think antonella wasn't it i think so so actually i have borrowed uh some of the slides which we presented at that webinar to get an overview what this consideration considerations is about as i said it's built on the um enka um european standard guidelines from 2015 and it's also based on the e-excellence which is the excellence label for e-learning in higher education and that is a benchmarking model and benchmarking means that you do yourself evolution so you can see yourself where you have your strengths and where you have your weaknesses and also um you can get guidelines what you can improve and when you do the benchmarking and the self-evolution then you are more keen to make improvements instead of someone from some kind of quality assurance agency are coming to your university and say hi there you have to do that and that and that um so here's what is a generic model uh it is for all higher education institutions um it is all types of e-learning we talked about in the beginning that are you can define e-learning in different kind of ways uh what is also good with this one is it is because it is all types of quality assurance and they also stress both the internal quality work but also the external and thus we know that um i mean the internal quality work within institutions are quite good and quite proactive in this area but what is missing very much is about the knowledge and the competencies from for some quality assurance agencies at higher education because they don't and they don't know so much about e-learning and online learning so they need to um have frameworks and they need to have help so here are some guidelines in this uh report on that have anyone seen it uh is anyone working with it okay there's some open questions i'm very important i'm very important okay thank you i'm i'm sorry it is a very important document that is and that's why i decided to talk quite a lot so that was the reason why i decided to talk a lot about this because i think it is a very useful instrument and tool to be more involved in the quality quality issues what you have to think about and how you can perform so we will see what it will tell us it is one part for the internal quality assurance as i said and one part for the external quality assurance and then um there are one part we really address the issues for quality assurance agencies which is really really important as i mentioned because they have no competence in this area and i think you're also that is an issue for all of us who are interested in quality that we need to to work together with them to to help them get an understanding what e-learning is about so it is divided i will not go into detail here with us because um but i will just show the structure uh so you see uh the structure again uh for the internal quality assurance they are you see there's a new piece and a guy last year i'll say in the image the structure is um again with a holistic perspective you can see policies mentioned the sign and the approval of the program the student centered learning uh the student admission professional recognition certification etc teaching staff the learning resources and student support uh information management and public information not at least and also of course the ongoing monitoring so you can recognize what we when i talked about um this framework for the european commission the wheel with a 10 dimension and also the report dimension when we studied the 40 quality models so there are many of those issues which are coming back all the time and you see both the teaching staff and student centered learning are coming back so in this report the those the chapters are mentioned and then there are some help for example just to show you um then there are there are some dimensions and some indicators which you can see and you can make this self-evolution oh how my institution working with this for example with policy and quality assurance is e-learning strategy embedded in the overall strategy i mentioned that uh halogen Ferrari said that there are no needs for having a separate quality uh strategy on e-learning because it needs to be embedded and this is exactly this is one of the the indicators it needs to be embedded okay i will not go into detail with this but you can read it in the report i will just show you the the structure so to say and um here are some of the other um about student and teaching staff so it's again there are some kind of hints how what you can look at and hear about the learning resources and student support and virtual mobility and there's also about learning resources for example we talked about open education how is our open educational resources used what about open access what about open science open pedagogy etc um and then we have the external quality assurance and how we can work with that that is more for the agencies and also how you can work with the implementing process and the peer review with peer review experts okay and of course the first point for the external quality assurance is to consider the internal quality assurance model and here again you can see some of the the the structure and the some of the indicators which you can look at for example for for designing um the design area flexible processes for include the new modes of teaching and learning environment innovation this is one very important issue um yes and then about the peer review of course with working with others and that is what benchmarking is about so um then maybe some of you know the tesla project which is also working about quality and as you see in the tesla they have more or less again the same kind of dimensions like um infrastructure resources like student support like teaching staff like learning analytics like public information so you see from all those models i have showed you shown you there are different kind of um dimensions which are coming back again in the game and that would of course tell us something and also all those um frameworks are telling us that we need to have this holistic perspective on the ecosystem uh contact north which is very proactive um uh organization in canada they are really uh arguing for that we need to look at quality in a different kind of way as we do for the moment but we need to to look at the uh learning over time not just when students have finished their their education or take their exams or their degree or whatever it is and you see engagement is one of the the key uh drivers for quality i'm mentioning get a turn back for example and the issues of engagement and they're also stressing that innovative flexible and effectively use of technology uh more in us not just to use it to substitute things but to use it in a smart way and with its possibilities and not at least um change is not driven by technology digitalization it's driven by you and me and the more knowledge we have about those issues about in this case about quality uh we can be uh advocates and we can be change agents for uh new uh and renewing the quality agenda in education so the more we know about those things and um what quality is what online learning is what e-learning is how we can look at it what kind of perspectives we have to take into consideration uh it can be stronger um so i'm coming to the end and that is um i think uh in the quality agenda there are also a new agenda who will shape their education is it the universities is it the governments is it the corporations or is it the individuals uh i myself i think all of them i would be happy to discuss this with you but i think that the individuals will have a huge role in the future and the future started yesterday yes uh how we will how we will look at quality because at the end of the day sorry sorry so in the end of the day uh the individuals spend time and money okay i'm coming to the answer i will mute my microphone and then i will let you in antonella so by that thank you very much and uh i would be happy to have some but it was so dense and interesting there are so many things that i would like to to discuss with you and i'm sure we'll have the time uh during the eden chat but the first comment that i want to to share with you um these last minutes that we have um is related to the concept of quality because you said and actually from your presentation is so clear that is very complex uh concepts that of quality and that it is related to so many different variables that it can be difficult to really uh find a definition uh for quality so my question is according to your experience to your research is to um you know uh your your your also your your everyday uh contact and work within this this subject uh what do you think what would you recommend uh to houses educators to take into great care when we deal with quality so thank you very much antonella for this very important question you're really right of course although uh uh the issues uh complex and difficult um we can't ignore it uh rather we really have to face it and um i will say that we need to shift the agenda to more look at what is mentioned from contact north the impact of the education on of the learning what kind of impact is it not just that you know that people have passed and the sea and so on they have those uh graduates and or whatever it is really what is the impact and again the impact for the individual the impact for the for the society the impact for the for the working life and i think um also uh what i really strongly uh used to emphasize is that we um although it's complicated we need to have this ecosystem at least we need to to try to focus both on the um like for example in this model from from the european commission i mean 10 dimensions is not that much you can manage that and you can have it in your hand to build the culture of quality then of course that model is not so easy as just 10 dimensions there then there are sub dimensions of course but you can at least start there to see to see where can you start and i think it is also good to make some kind of you know with all those models which are available and most of them are available online so you can measure your own your own status as well and see where have you where do you have the gaps and maybe either you can try to strengthen what you're good at and you can um um try to make the gap the smaller and i think totally not maybe totally but um a huge difference to shape a new quality agenda is to take the learners perspectives and what they are saying and listen to them and work together with them when we are shaping a new quality agenda and i think after your feedback to don will have to to close our our webinar i see don has a longer comment here and that is again about what they can understand about the quality of their culture um and again although it is complex um i mean we can we can start in small steps and the also each of us can do something and then together we maybe can manage out the full picture but i think it is very important to i mean to to lift it up a bit to get some kind of overview to get to get this ecosystem because whatever we are dealing with or or measuring or whatever we are doing it will have an impact as young Daniel was saying this iron triangle when you change something some the other shapes are changing as well so i think um uh we will have to work together on this uh we think in the quality agenda and at least in higher education um so by that um thank you again and thanks for having me and hopefully we can continue later to you today hello view to our Eden chat at 6 p.m center europe time we'll have the opportunity to again discuss with we've ever um some of the of the concepts that we have been developing today and maybe um this this this one hour and a half time before the Eden chat we can reflect on what we have been talking about together with Abba and ask for more uh deepening references and ints to take the issue of quality as for participating thank you Abba and see you in a while yeah for maybe last point uh we have this Eden the sick uh special interest group on quality and tell so i will we have a special web page uh at Eden web pages and then we are a core group um trying to work on this uh but we're also welcoming i mean more people so please if you have an interest in the issues uh please just contact me and um as i said uh together we can be stronger we can advocate better so thank you again special interest group