 Okay. Hi, my name is Deshaun Carr and I'm a policy analyst on the higher education team here at New America. Two cases currently sit with SCOTUS students for fair missions versus Harvard College and student for fair missions versus the University of North Carolina, which could likely ban colleges and universities from considering race as a factor in their missions process. If SCOTUS decides to overturn affirmative action, we can expect to see many damaging and rippling effects throughout the higher education system and other institutions here at New America. We acknowledge that we are not experts on affirmative action. However, we are dedicated to making sure higher education is more equitable and accountable fighting for inclusion rather than exclusivity so that everyone can obtain an affordable high quality education. Therefore, we are very committed to using our platform to uplift those with deep expertise and knowledge to raise awareness and spark cohesive dialogue on creating future policies to ensure that higher education institutions are a guiding light and embracing diversity, equity and inclusion. So today I'm going to be talking with a colleague of mine, Maya Emerson-Lubin. We're going to be just discussing what some potential policy could look like if affirmative action is overturned. And again, Maya, thank you, myself and New America, we appreciate you for taking the time to speak with us on this topical issue. As what Wasama says, the big elephant flying over our heads in the higher education right now and that's affirmative action. But I want to just start off our conversation, just learning more about you and your work. And you know, what interested you in working in this particular policy space. Yeah, thank you to shine and to New America, you mentioned that you all are experts but you still see the precarious place our nation is in with regard to our democratic values of equal opportunity and strength and diversity. And I appreciate you all having these conversations given how important this topic is. So how did I end up here. I am from a place called Meridian, Mississippi, where rich culture and joy and deep roots abound, but also palpable are the impacts of divestment and disenfranchisement and a lack of access to opportunity. I knew early on that in the realm of education with my space to do something about all of that. So, I started early serving. I left Meridian and went to Mississippi State University my alma mater, and serve as the first black female student body president there. Now, I don't mention that just to pat myself on the back, I mentioned that because upon leaving Mississippi State. I use that intimate knowledge of the hired system and research and data. But most importantly, the stories and the voices of communities to craft a career that makes change. So, so that's how I ended up here and in this particular space. I'm just wondering, and I think honestly that's a good, a good segue into my next question because you said you're, you know, you're in the south. And a lot of interesting things are cooking up in the south, I guess right now currently with, you know, Florida and Texas stuff that's around their di efforts. Do you think their actions are precursor to what we might see unfold nationwide if affirmative action is overturned. And what is a stake for higher education institutions and their current di efforts and initiatives. And those were interesting to describe those efforts in Texas and Florida and those are generous words to use to describe what's happening there and even in Ohio where they are considering a bill that would restructure higher ed as that state knows it. So, firstly, you mentioned, you know, will be the effects of if affirmative actions overruled. It's important to note for folks that the ruling will not be as simple as affirmative action is upheld. Or affirmative action is struck down. It's going to be really important, particularly for folks for folks whose work touches this area to not breathe in the headlines, but to interpret or go to trusted sources to read and interpret the decision before reacting, and possibly over correcting. Now, why do I say this, think back to the California prop 209 affirmative action fight right. California, as you know, struck down affirmative action but because folks across the P through 20 pipeline, sort of over read the decision and over corrected the negative effects of gutting affirmative action, like sharp declines and underrepresented minority students in higher ed were exasperated. So, this of course is no indictment on those folks it's a lesson for us to learn from. And with that said, we have to zoom out a little bit and reject the idea that attacks on affirmative action and attacks on di and attacks on curriculum and true history and book bands under the guides of CRT are all isolated. We are in the throes of a well coordinated, well funded strategic attack on equal opportunity. And while I caution, this community did not over correct. I must also warn folks that the other side is going to take even a width of a negative ruling on affirmative action and ring the alarm. They will certainly use the ruling to jump much further than the ruling actually reaches. They will use it as ammunition to beef up efforts that we are seeing sprout all across the country that you mentioned. And finally, yes, there's a lot at stake for our institutions of higher learning, but instead of zooming out this time I asked that we zoom in a little bit. Much is at stake for institutions, but everything is at stake for underrepresented students of color across this country and for their futures and in turn the futures of their community and in turn the future of the health of our democracy. So everybody has skin in the game at this point. Yeah, for sure. And I love that what you said about, you know, zooming in because again, like, just this, these cases and alone. I mean, affirmative action has been talked about for many, many years when you even brought up California I'm like, that's my home state. You know, like I see, I was like, I went to, you know, I went to the school where you know the whole where it took place you see Davis so I'm like, it's just interesting to see how like, you know, other states have been doing this stuff already and it's just like, now it's going to be particularly nationwide. And I know you talk you touch a little bit about, you know, critical race theory and I kind of want to get in a little bit of that and looking at how that dialogue is going to also unfold to because I know there's been a lot of you know, conservative I would say conservative leaning states have been looking to also ban critical race theory and what that means in different systems of higher education or even just education itself. You know, what would you I guess a ban on affirmative action have on that dialogue around critical race theory. Well, first, let's start with the facts. This movement around critical race theory is being spearheaded by politically motivated actors and lawmakers, not educators, the issue, the issue experts here, making the whole movement fundamentally flimsy so let's just sit with that first of all. I'm sure so many of the folks listening I mash my teeth, when I think about how our national conversation and our state legislatures have failed miserably with regard to CRT. Many legislatures, considering CRT bands are shaky at best on what CRT even is, and our inability to have a national conversation that has a standard basic foundation of fact has spiral this conversation out of control. So, you know to put it simply, your third grader is not learning about critical race theory in class CRT is being used as a tool to metal and curriculum and push an agenda that does not value equal opportunity. But that aside, as I mentioned earlier, if the Supreme Court does decide to overturn affirmative action. Again, it's important that we interrogate the scope of that decision before before over correcting. If they do overturn affirmative action, we can expect this conversation spiral more out of control I'm sorry to be the bearer of that news but the arbiters of power and ill will toward equity will make will take the decision and use it as ammunition to undermine the integrity of curriculum and the teaching of true accurate history. And you know if we know what to expect which at this point we do we've seen it across the country has to be on us to be ready to fight back and even find ways to be proactive and get out in front of these efforts before they arise in our states. Yeah, definitely. I really agree with all those. You know, and I think the conversation also goes back to you know I'm thinking also about basic needs. And you know I think a lot of you know a lot of institutions are looking for ways to support students whether that's through you know social economic. And, you know, one thing that's, you know, an important factor that I want to, you know, I guess I'm not important factor but importantly that I always want to be looking up is thinking about. When do we start talking about diversity, equity and inclusion as a basic need. I know we do a lot of work around like you know this arrogant data by racial equity like you know racial ethnic gender categories but the same time it's when do we actually have a conversation then we start to say like you know diversity, inclusion and even belonging is a basic need on campus I know as someone who identifies as a black student, going to a PWY. And you saying you know a familiar face that looks just like you on campus and saying hey you know you felt included and you felt belong. You know how do we start to bring in those conversations to the basic needs conversation, but then also the same time. Who do we bring to that who are those players that we bring into the conversation. Yeah, man, the Sean I love this question so much. And maybe selfishly because of the work that I get to do with student leaders so I didn't speak much about my work earlier so if I can, I will now. So, at the Lawyers Committee, I lead a project called the reason project and the reason project is an initiative designed to center students and alumni and community voice and identifying targeted sustainable strategies to increase equity and access and opportunity for underrepresented students of colors. We particularly focus on state flagships because of their important role. And that is led by multi sector state based coalitions in Illinois and Ohio. And those coalitions can be key stakeholders and developing innovative policies to jumpstart, improve tire and racial equity. So, not only did our coalitions dig into the inner workings of these institutions by analyzing data, right and examining and understanding the history of the institution in the region, etc. We also held a number of focus groups that we called campus conversations. These students additionally students were and are a key part of the work of the reason project for example, our reason coalition student advocates pulled together students from across their respective campuses to evaluate their differences and share their own recommendations with our coalition and shared with their university administration. Separately, as a part of our affirmative action work we have connected with student leaders at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, Harvard University of Texas at Austin, Yale, and more. I spent this past weekend in community with student leaders organizing themselves around campus equity at UNC University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. And working with these student leaders and discussing their challenges and triumphs that they've experienced as it relates to post secondary education, I have been struck emotionally and personally actually by one underlying thread. Student leaders have speaking about basic needs right student leaders have discussed things like long wait times and a lack of faculty and staff diversity at counseling centers. They have one institution is in a food desert and students discuss how rampant hunger was on campus, in particular for students of color. And as I say that out loud I'm remembering my time as student body president I was talking about how students were hungry on campus and need to do something about it and a colleague of mine said oh I didn't even know that was a problem because I eat at said fraternity house so right that's why we have to be in conversation with students. But the most poignant need that students point out over and over again is a thirst for simple safety to Sean physical, emotional, intellectual safety. This weekend when engaging with the student leaders at UNC listen to this 80% of their concerns fell under the category of safety. And you don't have to take my word for it, I have a paragraph and one of our student leaders from these campus conversations. So listen to their words, I'll call the student Jane. When I look to my left and look to my right and lecture hall when I was in econ class, the professor says work with someone, the person to my right, I'm hoping they don't call me the inward or something crazy like that, and the person to my left, I hope they're not afraid of me. It's a duality that you have to deal with as a black student. And I feel like if our school was committed to the idea that we succeed together, then people would feel uncomfortable holding those opinions and classes. And I feel like it would make the experience a lot better for everyone, because from what I've noticed black students are often coming into those environments willing to work with people willing to meet new people and have a study from other parts of the world, and we just aren't met with the same energy. That's from a student leader, when she said that it rocked my world right so during the affirmative action or argument there was an exchange with justice Thomas where he declares, you know, I'd like you to tell me expressly. When a parent sends a kid to college they don't necessarily send them send them there to have fun or feel good or anything like that. They send them there to learn physics or chemistry or whatever they're studying. Let me tell you something. The environment in that quote that I read earlier is not describing a need to feel good, or to have fun. That student came to learn, but the environment that they describe is not an ideal environment for anyone to learn in. That student is brilliant and that student is fine in spite of, but why do they deserve to put the world on their back and fight to get to college and then just survive when they get there. Let's go back to high school, and let's discuss Maslow hierarchy of needs right safety and belonging being key. So why don't students of color deserve to have their basic needs met as they contribute to our campuses and to our communities. In case you're unsure of where I'm going with this yet. Who are the players that need to be involved in this conversation. Students start there. They are the issue area experts and mayor who should be at the table when we start to have these conversations. Thank you for that question. No, no, thank you for answering and I appreciate, you know, you hit on a lot of different points on a lot of different things and I even like, I was like, yes, yes, yes to all those because I'm like definitely for sure on the student voice and student perspective like these are the ones who are mostly impacted by this issue. They should definitely be at the table. And then also, in terms of like safety, like, it's one thing I think and this is probably I'm about to go into maybe a little small tangent myself, but it's like how can we, you know, we tell these students to apply to these schools, and parents are seeing them off and I know, even I went to school down the street from my parents and you know but even just them likes wondering like is my child going to be safe. So the thing is, is like, how do we expect for, you know, people to pay all this money to somewhere that you're paying all this money and they can't even have safety or it can't be promised that they're going to be safe. And that's not, that's, that's not okay. So it's just like thinking about all these different things about who are these key players. Yes, students should be at the table and also safety. When it comes to your racial identity, people do don't forget about like, yeah, I want to be safe. When I go to go to, when I go to go to class or when I go back to my apartment after leaving class like both things are so important. And I think, you know, people tend to forget about the niche of what's what's going on. So sorry if I went off in a tangent to talking, you know, another memory came to mind when I was back on campus but she was like ages ago. I was, I worked in in the football department and we would host families right and recruits as they came to campus. And the parents of color always pulled me aside, and they were like, is my son going to be safe here. Right. So, is he going to be okay. You know, here in Mississippi and on this campus that has the makeup that it does right so safety is huge for these students and it has to be a part of the conversation so I'm sorry. No, no, no. No, because like you said it's definitely definitely resonates with me and again, like, I think we focus on getting the student in to college but we never think about the supports that they need when they get there. And that is definitely lacking when it comes to students of color. I guess this is now going into like I guess the policy side of the questions I have. But I think, you know, at New America, you know, we are very focused on, you know, federal policy just given our location, being in Washington DC. But I'm curious to know like what would you like Congress and the White House to know about, you know, the fallout, if affirmative actions overturn and you know and how could the decision affect federal policy like other, different higher ed policy matters. And what can Congress do to maintain and improve access students of color. Yeah. Great question so many groups are and will be grappling with this and I'm sure your other guests will dig into the policy specific so you know I'm actually going to come at this from a different angle. Yes, we need policy solutions, let's talk about them right, but we also must realize that we are in a political battle for the soul of this nation and higher ed and education is just one of the many battlefields. And so it's going to be important for our federal government from the White House to Congress to one educate themselves on the Ramac on the ramifications of the moment we find ourselves in in education. And you can do that by reaching out to all the great groups right that are doing this work, but it's also important that they are vocal champions of equal opportunity, and are reclaiming the narrative around race, and they're convening and supporting institutional leaders that are navigating this tricky landscape. And finally, it's going to be important that they signal to students, the future of our nation that their leaders are on their side. So, I may be disappointing you that I'm not giving you a really technical answer, but, but that is only one side of the solution here. And because this is not only a policy challenge we are in a political battle. We're going to need our leaders to recognize that, and to step up in that way as well. It's absolutely critical that they are the champions out there, really lifting up our core American value of value and diversity and equal opportunity. So it's going to be on the front lines right the first step of leadership from the federal government is going to be being really vocal around our core values right and then living out those core values by the policy decisions that they make of course, Definitely, definitely. And then my last question, you know, I think this is going into the general public because, you know, a lot is kind of quiet right now on this issue because I think everyone is just on pens and needles just waiting to hear you know what the decision is going to be. But what would you like for the general public, you know, take away from what is unfolding. And what is one fear you have about the upcoming decision and what is one hope. I'm hoping for and I'm glad you ended there so affirmative action was our government's response to write a wrong. That's what I want the public to understand the wrong being that bright, brilliant, beautiful black and brown and indigenous young people were being systematically kept out of institutions of higher learning. So we implemented a policy to act affirmatively to write a wrong. So my first fear would be around us taking an adverse Supreme Court ruling as a ruling on our values. Now, affirmative action being diluted or taken away does not absolve this country, nor individual states, nor higher education institutions of the responsibility to again act affirmatively to ensure everyone including students of color across this country have access to higher education. So that's what I'm feeling on the fears. So, again, as I've mentioned earlier, affirmative action is lawful and necessary and helpful full stop. However, I asked folks to zoom out again and remind you that affirmative action was never meant to be a silver bullet. It was never meant to solve every challenge regarding equity and higher education, and it would be and it would be unfortunate. And we should do some collective mourning if that tool is stripped from us. However, I find hope in the fact that there are still measures that we can take to ensure that our education system reflects our values again of equal opportunity. And here's the next thing that gives me hope. There are still a plethora of professionals upstream and downstream, right, who are committed to just that equal opportunity and higher education so for just as much fear as I have to shine I also have as much hope. Here, I am so glad I try to I want to end this call on a on a good note and leave, you know, viewers who are going to be tuning into this, you know, just, just know that there is hope out there and work and the work is going to get done. Yeah, it's going to get done. No matter what together together together that's why it's like collaboration is key teamwork makes the dream work all those little the saying that one says it's going to work out. And yeah, and again, thank you so much for, for joining me and also collaborating with myself into America on this, what we're calling now the affirmative action listening tour. We're just speaking with experts and scholars and advocates like you, who are just doing amazing work in this field already and we just want to give y'all a platform to, you know, showcase your work and just hear your thoughts on what, what next steps is going to be in terms of policy and what the future of higher education is going to be if, if, if SCOTUS decides to ruffle feathers. We'll see. But nevertheless, thank you. I'm proud to be a part of the listening tour and look forward to being collaborators no matter what comes from the Supreme Court come this summer. Thank you.