 Forever, the burden and the task and the challenge and the beauty of raising kids is to see them through different phases in life. You always want to get them to the next phase in a healthy, safe way. And you think, okay, they're done with elementary. Phew! Next phase, high school or whatever. And you think you're done with something, but no. There's always something bigger. The bigger they get, the bigger the problems. And oh boy, I tell you, you know, I've got teenage kids now and whew. There are some mountains you just don't want to climb as a parent. So today we're going to face those hard truths. This is the problem. We don't face things because we're afraid to ask hard questions. And today we're going to do that, okay? So whether you're a parent or you're a child of somebody or a victim, anything to do with drug abuse and issues hard like that, come and join our conversation. I've got a brilliant guest tonight, today, this morning, forever, to talk about this hard issue. All right. So let me welcome our wonderful guest today. Carol Maxim, who is an educational and therapeutic consultant and the author of a book called Teens and Turmoil. Yes. Yes. Congratulations and welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. That title says a lot. Teens and Turmoil. Yes. What did you write that book? Well, actually, at the time, I was working in a therapeutic boarding school. And I had a mother call about seven o'clock at night just beside herself. And she said, she was asking me questions about the therapeutic boarding school. It's clear that it was not going to be the right fit for her son. And she said in this desperate way, isn't there a book to help me? And I thought, no, sorry, there isn't. And literally that was when I decided, I guess somebody better write that book. Good for you. I guess it might as well be me. So that was a few years ago, but today, in this day and age, whether it's here in Honolulu or in the world, what do you think the situation is? You know, I hear increasing articles and write-ups about these opioid addictions and deaths and horrible, horrible things. What situation are we really in today with teen drug abuse? Well, you know what I mean? It's a bad situation. Drugs are readily available, literally everywhere, and literally every kind of drug. Large and small, really scary and not quite as scary. It's all there. Kids are on medications, which can and are routinely be abused. Do you think it's more so now than it was before because of the accessibility or is it the type of drug that is so addictive that it's bringing in more problems? Both and? Okay. All right. And it isn't, no, I don't have specific data, but I've worked in this field long enough. Yeah, I'm quite sure it's a lot worse. When I first started in this field, nobody was addicted to oxycontin because it didn't exist. Was it there? Right, exactly. And then when it first came out, it was touted to be non-addictive, and we found that that wasn't quite the way it turned out. Kids were not using prescription drugs because few kids, I mean, they were hardly around, so kids weren't using them. Just a brief description of what oxycontin is for people who aren't aware of these drugs. Can you explain it and what the effects are and why they're so addictive? Synthetic heroin. Oh, God. You're right. Right. Oxycodone, oxycontin, synthetic heroin. And is it accessible because it's more affordable? Is that why? Or is it like the trendy drug? Well, why has it gone so out of control? Well, all the above, again. It is accessible. If you get your wisdom teeth out, you may very well walk out of the dentist's office with a prescription for painkillers, and it probably won't be for four. It might be for many more. Doctors are getting much better about prescribing only what is needed, but it's out there. Here all the factories are, how it all gets to kids is hard to say one place, and this is something for parents to think hard about. Kids will raid your medicine cabinet. Really? And even if you feel quite sure, my kid won't do that. Your kid's friends might do that, and your kid might not even know it. I've certainly heard that story. Well, you brought up a very important part that I wanted to lead into anyway, is that every parent thinks their kid's not the one at fault. It's always the influence of whoever they're hanging around with. It's the blame game. It's not my kid. How do we get parents to face up to, or maybe just acknowledge the possibilities of them, you know, being the one? All right. So, you're thinking, for example, it's not really my kid. It's the kids he's hanging around with, okay? Right. Well, why is he choosing to hang around with them? Because they're the ones doing what he's interested in doing. Right. Right. Nobody is forcing him to hang out with the kids who are doing drugs. But how do you, as a parent, tell them not to hang out with the friends they choose? Well, you can say whatever you like. It's not what you say. It's whether you can be effective. And the issue is, if you say to your daughter, you may not hang out with them. They're naughty. She'll roll her eyes and think, uh-huh. Oh, well. And she may say, oh, Mom, I'll never do that again. Or she may say, I'll do whatever I please, but you can't affect it. The one thing that I think two seldom parents think about is parents getting together and making a little club, if you want, a little team. Now, you will have parents who won't get on board with you. But most parents don't want their kids using drugs. Of course. Right? When you start it and you say, as parents, how can we get together and work amongst ourselves to see that if kids are partying at your house or they're partying at my house, we both know there's nothing bad going on because we are keeping an eye on it. And if I think I need to drug test my child, I'm going to call you so that you will think, maybe I better drug test my child as well. Okay. So a team effort to be on track. Absolutely. And yes, I mean, I've had parents say, but not everyone will get on board. That's true. Right, because they're denial or whatever. It's not my kid. They'll never do that. But most will. Because most feel like you do, and you can say, look, we all want to believe it's not our kid. So in order to make sure it's not our kid, let's band together. And let's come up with very similar rules and boundaries for our kids. Can you really control that though? We really don't know. You're not in the room with them partying, and even if you do a drug test, apparently they have these fake pee, and how do they get these things, and where is all this? You can get anything you want on the internet, or I've certainly known kids that would sell their pee to others. Oh, gosh. Yes. Yes. One of the best stories was, 10 years ago, this kid, his dad was actually a neurologist, and the kid presented the dad with a little vial of pee, but it was ice cold because it had been in the refrigerator. Oh. Okay. Guess what? The dad figured it out. He did. Yes. Okay. But as far as I know, the very best drug test, particularly on younger kids, by the time they're 20, not so much, is when you say, okay, we're doing a drug test. No warning, and you watch your child's face. You know your child. That face is going to tell you everything, watch the eyes particularly. You know your kid, and okay, whatever. Right. Oh, I've got to go. I don't have to pee now. That's always something, right? Or whatever. It's going to be clean anyway, and then you just say, okay, good. I'm really glad. Go do it. And guess what? No privacy in the bathroom. Yeah. I think that's... Sorry, you gave that one up. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But the best one is just watch your kid, the reaction. You're going to, let's call it 80, 85% of the time, you're going to know. So it's not even the results of the pee test because they'd be smart enough to have a vial of fake pee in their pocket. Who knows? Sure. But the reaction you're talking about. That's it. But you say, know your kid. That's interesting. How much do we really know our kids? And we think we know them, or maybe we're still trying to put the cloak over our own eyes that this is not the kid I want to see. So there's a lot of deception. Absolutely. But if you think back to the kid you knew when he or she was two, three, four, five, six, that's still very much the core of your kid. That doesn't really change. I'm not saying that they don't take on other mature personality traits, and they look different and so forth, but that's the part deep in your gut. You know. And I will tell you, mother to mother, mother's gut rarely wrong. I think you're right. The instinct is pure. But the problem comes when your mother's gut tells you something and then you let your head take over. Right. And you don't want to go there. No, right. You don't want to do that. Yeah. Go with the gut. Your gut is what's right. Oh, boy. I mean, with that again, like a lot of parents just don't want to face up to the possibilities of anything that's going to affect the rest of their lives. So for example, going back to this drug abuse, addiction is, I'm learning, I hear, is a lifelong battle oftentimes. So when you're saying that kid, that cute little kid from two years old and it's still inside, how much can drugs destroy that? And will he ever or she ever come back to who she or he really was? Yeah, kid, they can really come back, but you will find addicts will always say I'm in recovery, not I am recovered or I have recovered because they know any day could be the day I lose track of recovery. So one day at a time and I'm in recovery. As soon as you think you have recovered, you're treading in very dangerous waters. So let me go back to what you're talking about. Parents don't want to know. I get that. But far more dangerous is not knowing. Far more dangerous is just saying, okay, I'll believe that it makes no sense, but I'll believe it. You're still hoping. Yes. And a couple of things to think about. If your child is using drugs, he is lying and he is manipulating and those are absolutes. Nobody does drugs honestly. Think about it. Hey, Mom, I'm going to pop a couple pills, okay? Right. See, it's not going to happen. You know, it's the lying and the manipulating and there's another, it's an expression from many, many years ago, the old self-help drug rehabs. Confusion is the junkies playground. So you think to yourself, I think I'm a pretty smart person and I'm confused. I don't get it. You said you were there, but I know you were there, but then you said you did that and I'm not getting this. As soon as you feel that confusion, figure out somebody's trying to confuse you. And the reason you're somebody is trying to confuse you, that's lying and manipulation. If I can get you wondering, well, was it 12 or 12.15 he came in? Well, I thought it was 12, but maybe it was 12. No. As soon as you're thinking that, you're not thinking about, so where was he and what was he doing and why didn't I drug test him? Right. He was translating to his own behavior. If he was lying, obviously there would be some truths mixed in with the manipulation, which makes it very confusing and you want to trust those truths because there may be moments of it and that's just what goes, spirals out of control. Now, we've just, I think we've entered an area where we need to kind of pry open a little bit more, but we will take a quick break and parents really have a deep thought about maybe what you haven't or dared not see about your child's behavior or the influence around or how they are lying or manipulating. I love that. What did you say? Confusion is a jumpy playground. That is just a very confusing and thought-provoking topic. It is. Okay, so put that in your head because confuse yourself. This is good. We've got to bring out the dirt so we can really get to the issue. All right, so we'll be back in a quick plank. Don't go away. Aloha. My name is Steven Phillip Katz. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and I'm the host of Shrink Rap Hawaii where I talk to other shrinks. Did you ever want to get your head shrunk? Well, this is the best place to come to pick one. I've been doing this. We must have 60 shows with a whole bunch of shrinks that you can look at. I'm here on Tuesdays at three o'clock every other Tuesday. I hope you are too. Aloha. Thank you for your translation. What is a way to kind of maybe get parents to, well... Parents have to face up to hard truths of drug abuser teens and we're talking about how drugs you're going to be lying and manipulating absolutely. This is just the part of the package. Absolutely. And so within that truth and if a parent does have to confront its bubbled up and the parents are working with the kids, how do they even start the process? Okay, so let me backtrack that just a little bit because we were talking about confusion is the Johnny's point. Yes, I'm all confused now. I don't even know how to ask the right questions. So one of the main manipulations to listen for from your child is, you don't trust me? As soon as you hear that, you know you should not be trusting. It's a given. Wait, but if they say trust me, mom, you're supposed to trust that too? No. Or don't trust anything? No. Remember, trust is always earned and it takes a long time to earn trust and can be lost in the blink of an eye. So the first time you catch your child in a lie, your trust should go to zero. Not down one notch but to the bottom because if there's one lie, I'm really sorry to say this but there's probably another one and another and still another and another. So you don't ever help your child by believing lies or trusting when your gut is telling you no. And you take, by that you mean to take away all their privileges until they earn it back? Yeah, you know, the taking away privileges thing is always a bit of a bumpy road I think because you're going to say, yep, and I wanted to have the phone because I want to know where he is. I would however want to remind you that because you call him and he picks up the phone, you don't know where he is. You don't. You just know that he picked up the phone. Right. Okay. And he could very well be saying, oh yeah, I'm at Joe's house when they're in a bar. I don't know. So it's more that before things are given, they need to be earned. Privileges need to be earned, not given than taken away, which is hard for parents listening in because they're thinking, but I've already given him this and this and this. So okay, but one thing you can do, first of all, I always tell parents, don't ground your child. Does it work? Well, number one, it doesn't work, and number two, who's really suffering? You are. But I was going to ask you. Picture grounded too. Right. But this is a different generational parenting technique, yes? When I grew up, my mother grounded me all the time, whether it worked or not, that's another story. But today a lot of people are so open to communication, oh, I'll let you go and then you come back safe and sound and that's okay. Just talk to me. Do you think that type of parenting is almost opening up too much? That's why a lot of these issues are coming in now? Of course. Okay, so let's just clarify a couple of things. As a parent, your job, your duty, I don't like the word job, your duty is guide, direct, and educate. Not be friends, not be hang out buddies, and I guess I have to say this, no, it's really not a good idea to smoke up with your kid. It really isn't. That was my next question. But if you remember that you have a duty to this child and those are your duties, it becomes clearer. If you use the word duty instead of job, you get into a different mind space because you have your job, whatever you do, you're a doctor, a lawyer, a merchant, whatever. That's your job. You have a duty to your child and your duty is to protect and part of that is protecting your child from making, really, I'm going to use the word stupid and dangerous mistakes and that may mean saying, you know what, no, you're not going out. Now, can you give an example of a stupid incident that maybe just create alarm bells to people who don't think that this really is going to possibly affect their lives? Have you seen cases? Well, OK, here's one. I've heard this one about 11 billion times. You find drug paraphernalia in your kid's bedroom. Oh, that's not mine. That's my friend. Of course. No, it isn't. It's really and truly, honestly, your kid's. OK, I have never. I've been doing this for a quarter of a century. Have I ever found a time when it actually belonged to the friend? No. So let's just go with that. So that's the kind of thing where don't believe, don't try to trust. I want to trust my child. No, you don't. Trust is earned. So when someone says I want to trust my child, I always say, but why? So you don't give them the benefit of the doubt because they don't have the capacity to be responsible in that way. Correct. You don't. And they're risk-taking age, where that's kind of what they're. Correct. They're living off of it. Right. Because, I mean, adolescents, we've all been adolescents and you can think about it. I can't be harmed. I can do anything. The world is my oyster, all that. So when your child is making these dangerous decisions, he or she is coming at it from that perspective. So not thinking, hmm, but if I do this, it really could affect my schoolwork and my schoolwork could affect where I go to college. And that could really affect what I do next. Yada, yada. I could know. No, that because it's not part of the adolescent thinking. Right. It doesn't work that way. So are you saying that adolescents really don't have that capacity to think truly responsibly for themselves? And that is why we need to control their environment. I'm saying it is growing. And hopefully by the time they're 18 or 20, it's really pretty much right there intact. But the more you enable your child, the more you infantilize your child, the more you help your child to do things that he or she can do on his or her own, the more you're delaying that maturing process. So the danger of letting them go out freely too early is really bringing in all the trouble. Yeah, I think of it this way. As a parent, if you are checking on your child's homework, well, what do you have tonight? Well, I checked online and you really have this. You're micromanaging the part of life that your child is able to manage and should manage. And you're giving your child immense freedom to go out heaven knows where, doing heaven knows where. It's just backwards. Because your child is able to do seventh grade, eighth grade, tenth grade homework, and keep up with the assignments without you doing it. If you start getting in the midst of that, you're teaching your child, yay, you really can't do this. You're really not capable. And the more, very important point, the more a parent or parent to micromanage want to know every little detail. Yeah, the helicopter mom. Right, the more your child's going to go underground. And if you are managing to micromanage all their schoolwork and what they eat. Right, you're breathing down their back. That child is going to go underground in the first place. Sex, drugs, and rock and roll. So you're talking about the overprotective parents who really want to hover and really think they've got everything in control. But how does a parent know when the kid is in trouble? Like, they know there's a serious problem. I mean, we've been through all the deception and we think there's hope, bullshit. How does a parent know when there is a huge problem before something really bad happens? Okay, so you just use the word hope and I'm going to be a real snark and say, get rid of your hope. Because I hope my child is not using drugs. Not, sorry, it's not going to do it. Don't hope. You have to be active. And remember, once again, your child earns privacy. So, if your child says, don't you, pardon me, effing go in my room? Right. That means go in my room because why? Now, but you see, then you've got this thing. If you're micromanaging, if you're helicoptering, your child is going to try to find some place that is mine, all mine, my personality, myself. And that is age-appropriate. But not if that becomes the only way to get around to you, mom, or dad, or parents, is to go underground. Yeah, they're going to do it anyway, no matter what you do. They are, so you would much rather have your child not turn in homework and lie about that than lie about using drugs. Think about it. I'm still confused, Carol. I mean, in our short time left, at one hand, we think we should not let that whole leniency open up to the overcommunication and saying we're friends and tell me what you've been doing. We don't want that, that brings in trouble. At the same time, we don't want the hovering kind of parent who's going to micromanage and look at every little aspect of their lives. And so how does a parent find that healthy medium? Guide, direct, educate. Okay, so I will say I have never yet met the child who didn't do drugs because he or she was educated about drugs. They know as much as they're going to conceptualize in adolescence that drugs can be dangerous, but not me, I'm never going to get hooked. But if you're micromanaging, you're not guiding, you're not directing, you're not educating, you're micromanaging, they are different. And yes, I am saying in many ways, you do have to change your parenting style. And you do have to have rules in the house. I don't like to call them rules so much, I like to call them standards. What is, what's okay to do in our family, in our house? That is for parents to make the decision and frankly there's way too much negotiation with kids. You set the standards and those are the standards. If you do it early, if you do it thoughtfully, you're not going to get as much pushback. And this is hard because I know there are parents who are listening, they're thinking about it, what do I do with my 17 year old and how am I supposed to be able to control, right? If he's already out of control, you've got to find the control, you've got to pull it back and try if you can to use the school to help you. Some schools will help you. Right, you need the whole community of support. But my gut also is, kids want to have that boundary. When you don't have that, something's wrong, it's like parentless and they feel almost lost at something. It's why kids would leave little traces around or they'll have that conversation on the phone when you're just close enough to hear or they'll leave their phone around and it's not turned off so you actually could check the text very often. They need us, they want us around. They do. They just say they don't because they're teens. Yes. Carol, in our short time left, I also want to remind people of the wonderful book that you wrote. So if people have more questions, maybe they can look it up, Teens in Turmoil, a path to change for parents, adolescents, and their families. It's a very hard subject to deal with. Nobody, like you said, wants to confront these issues. What are some hard facts or questions you want to leave our listeners to contemplate about this whole problem? Well, I think the most important one is I get that these facts are hard to face. But what I want parents to think about is how much harder it is to face it when the facts are bigger, better, worse. Having that real heart to heart and putting in the standards when you think your kid is smoking some marijuana, it's one thing. When you gotta come in and say, what about what's going on now and it's actually cocaine, or it's crashing out of roll and snorting out of roll, these are bad things. You wouldn't get in there early. And another point, I guess I can't leave without saying, kids really like ADD drugs, but they're not using them exactly properly. They're crushing them and snorting them, or they're selling them to get the other drug that they personally prefer. So think about it, if your child was not ADD as a little kid, he didn't catch ADD now. It's not like measles, you can't catch ADD. So, and kids go on the internet routinely, memorize all the different symptoms, go into the psychiatrist, recite them, get the prescription. So we have responsibilities as parents to learn about all these drugs out there, all these crazy, it is an epidemic, honestly. I mean, it just really is a tip of the iceberg that we haven't addressed enough. And we hope today that, thank you to Carol that we've actually touched on the significance of this bad influence. And I hope you will really take it to heart and really try to be a community with people who are in need of this. So again, Carol, thank you so much for your wealth of advice. And I'm very glad to do it anytime. The more kids we can help, the better we are. Absolutely, okay, thank you so much. And you guys have a great day, thank you.