 news click, the pandemic of the COVID-19 has resulted in a huge increase in the child labour across the country as well as across the globe. To discuss more about the implications of such increase, we have with us Mr. Dr. Bala Murugan, a Child Right activist. Welcome sir. Yeah, thank you. Sir, to begin with, what do you think is the basic reason or the fundamental reason for the increase in child labour? So, simply the people will say that poverty is the major reason. But from our experiences, we realize that poverty is not the reason. It's one among the reasons. There are several other reasons because when you talk about child labour, we talk about push and pull factors. Some of the things are pushing towards the work. Some of the things are pulling them towards the industry. So, basically it is a social, economic and geographical backwardness. Number of family members in the family lack of access to education and quality of education because the schools play a major role in increasing this child labour. If you see the tribal area, in most places the children do not have access to the quality education. It is resulted in dropout. Once they are dropped out, then they will end up with child labour. That's the thing. Then poverty, when you say poverty is one among the reasons. However, if you see the reasons for the poverty, it could be the addiction, alcohol addiction of the parent or some kind of money drainage within the family or health issues. So, chronic health diseases. So, they may not have enough fun to support that. So, this kind of thing. Then family tradition also is play a major role. Another important thing, the discrimination between boys and girls. Now, if you see the proportion of girls dropped out from the schools, it's really increased. Once they are dropped out, either they are sent to work or getting married. So, these are the things. Some of the things attract them towards the industry like cheap labour. In most places, the children are preferred because they can exploit them and also they can be very less wage for more hours of work. And they give false promises stating that you'll be given these facilities and all the, you know, with the entertainment or sports, everything will be given. But whereas when they enter the living and working conditions will be very poor and these are the reasons for the child labour, we cannot quote just one reason for the child labour. There are combinations of factors, varies from region to region. If you go to the triple belt, the reasons will, you know, combinations of different factors. Geographical location itself is the reason for the child labour. So, we got to see in a comprehensive manner. Sir, as you said that a lot of promises are being given to the students, I mean children, who are brought to a job by a big company. One major sector, one major industry is the different industries across the state where you find a lot of child labour. The big corporate houses, the Raman industry in the western part of Tamil Nadu, where the child labour has very huge presence. What do you think are the reasons for this particular criteria? See, there are, again, you know, if you see the children, there is an issue in the definition of child labour. If you take ILO, they give a different definition. Then if you come to India, they have different definitions. They define the children below 14 years. Then, you know, others are adolescent labourers. They can be engaged as per the rules. So, they take this as a leverage. For example, factories like 1948 clearly says that the child completed 15 years of age can work as an adult. It means eight hours they can work. So, it's a problem because the national policy for children 2013 defines clearly the children below 18 years of children. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, it clearly defines, folks who act, it clearly defines, you know, below 18 of the children. Junior Justice Act, whereas there are a lot of lacuna in the definition itself. So, as far as Tamil Nadu, India is concerned, these segments, the people in 15 to 18, they are more vulnerable for the reason that the schools push them out. For example, if you take the high school, higher secondary school, how many schools have proper toilet facilities? If you check, it's very poor. That we in rural area, I have written several schools, I visited several schools. For the reason they are unable to manage the menstruation cycle, they do not have any facilities. They just quit the school because going in the open spaces is an embarrassment for them. So, they quit the school. So, what happens once they are dropped out, they will be trapped by the agents. So, there is no ethical recruitment practices as such in the textile and garment industries. There are a lot of issues around that. I do not blame the companies. They engage the agents. The agents give false promises for which the principal is also liable. They cannot say that I do not know about it. So, there should be a proper recruitment practices or center operating procedure should be in place so that this can be prevented. So, that's the reason, the major sector, if you go and see the textile and garment industry, we had decades, almost two decades ago, if you see the average age of the worker, it was 40-45. Now, it is 23, 22-23. So, more than 60% of the girls are below 18 years. So, this is the current scenario in Tamil Nadu. As you referred the education, the schools being a one reason behind the increase in child labour. So, presently we have a policy which claims to be student friendly, which is called the National Education Policy. Do you think that this policy will further increase the number of child labour or will it help in any way to reduce the child labour? So, the present national education policy should be seen in a comprehensive way. So, I appreciate the people who written it because all the objectives are very well dropped in the sense the wordings are good. If you actually see the intention of the policy, it will push the children out of the school. I will quote a few examples. In the policy, whenever you develop a policy, they will develop the policy based on certain principles. If you see the principles, right to education is not at all given there. So, in one place they mentioned that the children will be, the compulsory education will be ensured till 12 years of education or 12th grade. The modalities were not given. Whereas, if you see the methodology, they are dividing like, they will have public examinations in third grade, fifth grade, eighth grade. Like, no stupid can do like this kind of policy. Already, the problem in India is that the children are enrolled. Children are enrolled. If you see the enrollment ratio, yes, 100% enrolled. The issue is retention of children in the schools. So, already, if you see 10th and plus two grade students, they have mental stress, depression, duty exams, marks and other things. If you put that pressure on the child who is studying in third grade, how they will cope it up? It's very, very difficult. So, naturally, what will happen? Third standard, there will be dropout. Fifth grade, there will be dropout. Eighth grade, there will be dropout. That's one thing. The second thing, they are talking about three-language formula. The annual statistical education survey report says that the children studying in fifth grade are unable to read the Tamil book of second grade student. Just imagine their mother tongue is Tamil. They are unable to read second standard Tamil book or third standard Tamil book. So, English is the second language. Already, there is a problem in the system if you force another language. See, we are not against learning Hindi. Yeah, even if you learn 10 languages, we are happy. But it should not be against the rights of the children. So, when you introduce three-language formula, already, they are suffering with Tamil and English. They are unable to cope it up with how they will learn another language. So, this has to be taken care of. Lot of, lot of lack in the policy. I tell you, if the policy is implemented in its spirit, after 10 years, you can witness the increase in the child level, increase in child marriage, increase in child trafficking. That will be the result of this policy. We can definitely tell from our own experiences. So, when we check the website of the child welfare and protection department as well, the position of the chairperson is vacant, the members are vacant. We could not contact any people to get details about the status of the child labor and all those things. What do you think is the government doing in this particular case? When we check the website from April and may these important key positions are vacant and many nodal offices positions are also vacant in lot of business. So, what can we understand from this situation? Actually, the commission for protection of child rights act was enacted in 2005. It's a central act. Based on that, the state has to enact an act. Just see, in 2005, the central act came into place, whereas we enacted the act in Tamil Nadu only in 2012. See, they made rules only in 2012. It took seven years. So, while creating these structures, we appreciate that they have done it, but they have to understand the role of state child protection commission. So, as of now, they have to monitor the juvenile justice act. They have to monitor right-to-education act. They have to monitor prevention of children from sexual offenses side. They have to monitor child marriage prohibition act in 2006. So, if there are any other issues related to the children, they have to monitor. They have to identify the gaps in the implementation. They need to orient. They need to train the officials and other stakeholders. They need to organize consultations. Lot of things they can do, but from the beginning, it does not have the autonomy. It's an independent body, but it's not have its own independence. They cannot act on its vote because this has been under one department controlled by the particular department. What we suggest, you know, Human Rights Commission. How it functions? The same status is given by the statutory act, you know, it's a form of basic PCR. Why it is not functioning? The thing is, it is not independent. The second thing is about the chairperson and members, right? For this kind of commission, if you appoint a retired high court judge, it will be useful, right? Those who are in the bureaucratic structure, they will follow only those texture, right? They may not think beyond that. So, what we suggest, if you want to make it more efficient, appoint a person who is retired from high court, just like Human Rights Commission, National Human Rights Commission, if you appoint, then it will add value. When they send the someone, others will reason because it's a retired judge. It has its own value. The third thing about the infrastructures, see, they have to monitor all these things. There should be separate division within the system. We don't have any system. If you see the allocation, that's very penant. If you see the allocation from other states like Kerala, Telangana, so they are allocating in close, but here it's only 20 lakh, very, very, very, very minimum budget. And if you see the salary of the ACPCR, very embarrassing situation for the chairperson, 25,000 rupees, right? Getting lesser than the driver of the car provided to them. See, when you say the chairperson, they have the authority in Telangana, they are paid as unequal to the chief secretary rank. So they'll have the weightage. When they send something, immediately it will be responded. Then there's no advocates. There's no panel. And also, if we go and see the website, you can verify. Till 2014, what they have been doing, there was no record. At least for 2017, 2018, 2019, there are some kind of reports, right? So they don't have infrastructure. And also, we should not think in terms of political. Whatever the ruling party, they need to think that this is the issue of children. If there are prominent persons, those who are already committed for the children issue, they should be appointed. The members, they cannot claim their travel. How they will travel to understand the issue, just imagine. They cannot claim their travel. Most of their pills are still pending there. So from January, there is no member. From January, there's no chairperson. From March, there's no member. What are the issues? They don't go proper records. And if you want to make it very functional, first of all, it should not be a politically motivated position. The High Court-retired judges should be appointed. And the second thing, infrastructure, proper infrastructure with all facilities, it should be differently abled, friendly. Now you cannot, it's in the first floor. The differently abled children, they cannot go and access it. And there is no, even if we go and see the chairperson, or if you want to have a meeting, there is no chair for accommodating the visitors. So basic infrastructure should be made. In Kerala, there are 41 employees in state commission, whereas in Tamil Nadu, there are only nine people. Just imagine the difference, the population of Kerala, population of Tamil Nadu. Just compare it. So how much employees we should have in the commission. So that it has to be, and also with all intra like computers, printers, all this should be a cube. And the chairperson and members should be treated with dignity. The salary should be higher than like a secretary cadre or something they can consider. The fourth thing, they should have an experts panel. For monitoring pork side, they should have an expert panel with prominent advocates for general justice. So that they can follow it up with the cases. Now they are unable to do that. And another thing that transparency. So what they are doing, there should be a dashboard, number of complaints received. Once they enter, it should issue solved as on date. Everything should be transparent. And allocations should be very high for Tamil Nadu. It's not for the 2018-19, the allocation was 68,36,000 only. This is very, it includes salary of the people. So when we compare, it's very, very inadequate. And also the state commission, when we say it's not only looking at the issue, it also has to work with other state countries. Like there are child welfare committees, there are district child protection unit, they have to monitor their functioning. There are NGOs, they have to work with the NGOs. They have to work with the trade unions because they are dealing with the issues of child laborers. So they have to work with them. So they have to at least regular consultation. If they are in touch with the NGOs, definitely NGOs will support them. But as of now, there is no linkage between NGOs and the ACPCR. So all these things needs to be done. Whatever I am telling here is to bring out the gaps so that it will be an efficient function so children will be protected in Tamil Nadu. Sir, one important mechanism which has been long followed is the surprise visit of the district authorities to the industry to check the child laborers. Is there anything which is going on right now in that path because information is that lot of vacancies are existing in the district nodal agencies which carries out or leads this kind of surprise check in the company? There are things are happening but the result is zero. So far, the number of cases identified within the industry is very, very less, almost zero. There are several reasons because when they employ the children, some more children, they are certified by the doctor that the age is above 15 or something, they are certified and they are qualified to work as an adult. That's the thing. What we suggest, we have been advocating with the government to ensure that all the children, the age should be based on their school certificate because almost all the children now enrolled in Tamil Nadu, definitely they would have studied up to fifth standard. So that should be based on the thing but other and other doctor certificate has been given as a proof. That's the one thing. I'm not accusing all the employees. There are very good people, they apply only the children, they do not engage the girls. Only girls in the age category, below 18 they are not engaging. There are several meals. We can witness it's a good practice. They have ethical recruiting practices but most places it happens. Like below 18 are engaged, the fault certificate has been produced. So its verification is very difficult and just imagine the number of workers or workforce available with the government, one person for 500 factories. Just imagine 518 or something if I am correct. How can they visit? They don't have the mechanism. So they have to see that it's deserterized at the block level or panchayat level like that. Otherwise it cannot be done. So there should be a separate mechanism to monitor the child level and also schools are there. They are maintaining records under the EMIS, Education Management Information System. They know how many children are dropped out from school but I tell you in most places now you can verify. From Thiruvannamalai, the children from Jawadikil and from Vellimalai from Millupuram, Calvaryangels from Salem, they work in cotton fields in Salem. Now if you go and see they start their work in the 6th, till evening 6th they will work. If you go and see their school records, you cannot find it. So there are a lot of lacuna available. So what we suggest when they employ the children, there should be a school certificate that says age group. Otherwise don't employ and also we advocate for don't employ the children below 18 years. There are a lot of girls or women are available so they can take them. So it's not happening. So and also the government should strategize. They have all data. That's the thing like Child Development Index. They are developed. State Planning Commission, they have Child Development Index. It clearly says They are below the state average in child development. So the children in this area are vulnerable for child labourers. It's clear. So they have to have a clear strategy for the particular region with other stakeholders. Otherwise it's very difficult to control the child labour in any industry.