 Stop waiting for the federal government's convene national unity summit to save Nigeria. Former Vice President Atikwa Bubakar says to governors and Yahya Bello tells governors to implement financial autonomy for judiciary if they believe in restructuring. Well this is plus politics and I am Mary Anacol. Former Vice President Atikwa Bubakar has called on Nigerian governors to stop waiting on the federal government to make changes that may not happen anytime soon to resolve the problems challenging the country. Instead he has asked leaders to convene a national unity summit of all Nigerian governors to iron out the issues and also ignorance and mutual suspicion has been said to be the what is feeding the insecurity and criminality in Nigeria. This was said by cleric Umau by a Grand Patient of the National Advisory Council of the Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria PFN. Well joining me to have this conversation is Bimbua Waileh. He's a journalist and of course Samayla Moussa is the Director of Strategy and Communications of CNG. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you. I'm going to start with you Bimbua. Of course as a journalist and someone who's in the newsroom you get to get more and more reports on what's happening in Nigeria in terms of insecurity. Last weekend I spoke with the INEC representative who complained about you know the fact that they're being targeted and was seeing all kinds of violence but they all seem to have stemmed from one particular case of insecurity which has now become a hydroheaded monster. Now when the former vice presidents asked that governors decide to call a unity summit I mean there's so many people who have asked for conferences to be held. Waileh says that governors should not wait for the presidency to do that. Does that not mean that the the governors may be assuming the duties of the presidents of the Federal Republic of Nigeria? Well being someone who has been in the presidency and who knows how government works that's talking about article. He should have a better understanding. I feel he should have a better understanding. The presidency is one one person. But governors seem to be more in control. Governors seem to know a bit more sometimes than the presidency and it kind of you know depends on who is running or who is in charge in the presidency. And then let's not forget that Nigeria runs a very very unique style of federal government. We are not still in my opinion running you know what the real federal system should be where government states should be autonomous. States should you know run their own security system. States should be able to control their own resources. You know so in the real sense governors should actually you know be allowed what article is saying should play out. But with the kind of federal system that Nigeria runs everything always points back to the presidency to the federal government which is why it kind of seems like it doesn't really have a leg to stand on right now. If the states were really as autonomous as they should be if the states were to control their own security system if you were to control their own resources if we really really run a real federal system then perhaps you know what you said on the suggestions yes we would have a leg to stand on. Even good luck Jonathan said this yesterday at the program where it was you know and this is another ex-president and someone who has also been in presidency also saying something similar that governors are in a position to do more than the president. So why are they not you know giving the governors the actual ability or you know let us run a real federal system by you know letting governors be able to control their own resources you know letting us have state police and you know letting the local governments you know really run as the least form of the three-tier system that we have. I think you know that is really where we should go back to and I think you know that is part of some of the subtle things that article is saying here that we really need to look into if you want to get out of you know some of the challenges that we face as a nation because the foundation upon which a lot of these things are built you know seems to not be as it should and it's really really part of why we are facing some of the challenges we have at the moment. Does this also mean that because there are projects who have said that the reason why the governors the owners is now on the governors or the governors are beginning to take these stands because maybe the presidency is not necessarily leaving up to its expectations it has you know failed the people when it comes to dealing with the issues that the country is facing and so the governors have taken it upon themselves because they want to protect their citizens as opposed to the body language that they're getting from the federal government. The governors have to do something and I think Nigeria is at you know at the precipice of something either great going to happen or something on the other side of the number line going to happen because of some of the steps that we are seeing right now it has never happened before you know that we see southern governors meet on the unified umbrella we've always had the Nigerian governors forum but for the first time you know southern governors came together in Asaba Delta state and they came up with the communique and all of a sudden now everybody you know seems to be shaking and they are wondering well you know what's going on here so it seems it seems something is about to happen and the governors are now you know trying to live up to a responsibility that they should have lived up to years ago and you know you might want to say yes they were not giving free hand or free range to do some of the things but I think they had they've always had the opportunity to do these things they've always had security votes and which a lot of them cannot account for we don't know how they spend you know some of these monies and so many other ways you know a lot of them you know wait for fuck our locations they have not been looking in words to sell they can generate money you know to build infrastructure that will lead to job creation that will point people in the direction where they will not have to do nefarious things you know to try to get money because poverty is also part of some of these security challenges that we're talking about and if governors had always you know done what they're supposed to do in terms of raising their own internally generated revenue are not waiting for fact all the time then perhaps you know we wouldn't be in some of the situations that we are in right now so the governors are now you know moving in the right direction in my own opinion and but everything has to be done with care with proper calculation and with precision so that you know it doesn't go off the rails it is right in the direction that they are coming together and they are unifying they are putting away that especially in the south where things can be very very polarized this is the first time and I think you know it's it's going in a very good direction but at the same time we need to be careful so that it doesn't go on you know off the rails well let me go to a smile up because when the southern governors put out that communique they mostly hapt on you know putting a ban on open grazing and they also called for restructuring the senate president has come out to kick against it of course certain northern governors are not in agreement with that move by the governors in the south in fact they have said that the senate president had said that the governors are not paying attention to the most important things that the ban on open grazing is not really the solution to the problem that Nigeria is facing. Smyla can you explain to me why you think that or why the senate president took that stand is that the stand that the CNG is also taking do you think that the southern governors have something else off their sleeves other than you know fighting the level of insecurity that we have in the country? Well for me I don't think anybody is actually worried or cheated about whether they've got something off their sleeves or not really I mean it's almost inconsequential to us you know but what we just after is you know sometimes you want to shy away from taking some positions because you feel at this point especially now that the country is almost at some kind of precipice where Ellen little things can actually push it to the brink of you know anarchy so really we felt there should be more kind of some more mature approaches to this and I tell you why I need to just digress a little bit so that you have a feel of what I'm trying to the templates I'm trying to lay is that the governors themselves are largely you know the course of the problem they try to profile solutions to. How so? Yeah now the body language is what I really make the difference I tell you one thing he mentioned something about security votes you know what? They don't spend a penny on anything in their state on security from that money. That money is given as a matter of fact you know I know you robust call it a job we call it Adachi a governor can bet his life that he's guaranteed every month he can have this contribution of X amount of money that he knows is coming to his step because nobody sees Jack I give you an example in the past where we have the issue of between Adidibu and a lot of job back in oil state then the man was saying you know the late Adidibu was saying I'm the one who holds the security of the state I'm the one who says no trouble no trouble goes anywhere I'm the one who says there's gonna be chaos and everybody and they everywhere is on fire if you say you have been spending your collective security votes you're spending it even not getting the penny so you tell me who is it going to who are you giving it to because I'm the one who controls the security we have these issues and we have tried to let them understand over here in the north now look some of these issues shouldn't even go out of the governor's office you will have some of this chaos if somebody I mean some people are complaining they have cattle rustlers disturbing them in their area and these are confirmed genuine cases it doesn't take you how much does it take you to pull out money from that security vote in a month and buy like hundred cows and begin to shed among these people who are feeling a grip they don't need to resort to arms because over time there's so much neglect their castles are also you know their properties vandalized by the rustlers and all of that they have been displaced and the governor is keeping them in an IDP for how long would you do that and your collective security vote what are you using it for for quite a loud so really they are part they are part of parcel of this whole problem because you see everybody just feel oh nobody's don't ask questions there's no any accountability they receive that money nobody ask any question nobody really so this is what you have so no matter what kind of well because you know you're talking about what they're talking about that the issue of restructuring and all of that is this body language nothing is going to change is the same people the same attitude they go about the office and sometimes they come up with different kind of ideas in order to cover up for their inadequacies and all of that I mean come on we've been so all these dummies for how long we're going to be leaving this way okay so my I want to go back to what you just said so you're telling me that in all of all the things that you just said all I got was that if they were the cows were replaced or the government had used in your part were able to deal with cattle rustling we would not have banditry so you're telling me that it's okay or that the result of cattle rustling is why we have banditry is why we have cows I'm trying to understand please make me understand why it has metamorphosed to this point because cows were not for them I'm saying we have cases genuine cases in some states and I give you some for for example we've had an interface with the governor at our own level at CNG you know we listen to him you understand we know some of most of the testimonies he got when he came on board I mean of people's grievances and all of that there are genuine cases where because of what is happening in Zanfara the illegal mining in 90% of the mining going on in Zanfara is illegal now the people who are doing it illegally need to display some people so that the business will try some person some villages have been identified after carrying out some suspect tests to say that these people are actually you settlement actually on gold we need to displace them in some cases some of them are cattle rustlers so what do we do you are gonna is people they come rustle their cows just to make sure that they leave the place and I'm telling you most of these people go back and say okay since the government the government is not helping us they also go and acquire ammunition I've had work you know some of them have been caught who said well you can go and verify my name is so so I had my my land in social place I had about 70 cows I had about 100 or something cows they were Russell I complained to the police book house the Commission of Police we had meetings several times nothing was done so what I'm saying in essence is that if the state governors have been to active enough to stem it at its board to say look okay let's get this genuine cases you don't you guys don't need to resort to ammunition I mean carrying out our arms for because you need to leave there's questions of survival anyway how many cows are being Russell here how many cows are being Russell there let me have the total that you know so that we can do something you need to alleviate the suffering of these people if that has been done no you don't need to even call for any money from the federal government just your security boots can take care of all of this but because they don't even remove a dime from the security boots it's just solely for them as far as they are concerned this is their own you know consolation so what I'm saying in essence is that at their own level they can take care of some of this without waiting for any money from anywhere outside the story to vote and we have several cases like that you need to come to the north and ask there are several of those testimonies going on and this are the same people are going back that's why this thing is on the increase I will come back to you some of that go into kidnapping I will come back to you because I have a lot of questions for you and I need that need answering but let me go back to bimbo before we let him go bimbo let's talk about revenue mark by who's saying that ignorance and some other things is responsible for the killings that's happening in Nigeria he's also said that our leaders have not necessarily lived up to the expectations in terms of good leadership that and good governance and that it's become some source of a mirage for us in this country hence the reason why we're having so much chaos from all sides of the country and he's also said that we have mistaken our brothers for enemies because we're ignorant of the history of Nigeria does ignorance really do play a role in all of the things that we're experiencing today especially if you look at the south southeast they're asking for secession yesterday Sunday Boho was saying that the 2023 polls may not happen in the southwest for reasons that he stated so I mean there's literally problems everywhere in the country but does ignorance have a big role to play in all of this well there's a lot to unpack you know in all that you've said but I would like to really understand the context of you know with which he has used the word ignorance specifically perhaps you know it was using it in the biblical you know context you know where you were saying ignorance as to that we really don't know our history we do not know how we came together and that's why you know we're having all of these agitations because you know in the biblical sense I said my people perish for lack of knowledge of us so maybe you know that was where it was talked about you know the history is part of the problem you know if it was going to talk about that because the foundation upon which this house was built in the first place you know it was not under the best of circumstances and I know a lot of people you know will agree with me or on that we then needs that there is a need to have a conversation every business even businesses corporations after a while no even the successful ones you look at you know known brand names every year Coca Cola Pepsi they don't have to to rebrand or to you know always do large commercials and activations but every year they sit down they spend a lot of money they have a conversation how do we keep this successful this this success going how you know you know do we they change their bottle they do it but when you talk about let's have a dialogue in Nigeria you know to to know where we're going you know today people start to get afraid and I do not understand why there is a need to have a conversation about Nigeria past present or future especially the future the present right now I didn't want to go you know going to the present because you might not live here but you know you know talking about what you know was said earlier I cannot you know for the love of me understand why we are still having problems of cattle wrestling in Nigeria this was an issue that was solved in the United States in the 19th century in Brazil in Argentina these issues were solved you know we are still having conversations about open grazing in Nigeria in 2021 please come on so these are some of the things you know that you know we have to have a conversation is it's not really about ignorance maybe perhaps you know that was the context upon which we spoken about because we have to understand some things we do not have to reinvent the wheel there are a lot of problems that Nigeria you know is dealing with right now a lot of security challenges that we're dealing with other things that have been solved by people we just have to run by the software or the hardware and plug it on the Nigerian motherboard unless the Nigerian motherboard is outdated and we need to replace the motherboard all together but I think a lot of these things are things that we can pay money for you know there are a lot of things that we can pay money for security to think that Nigeria for example you know we are still having issues with electricity in 2011 electricity plays a huge role in security the other day I was walking down one of the major streets in Victoria Island and it was around 10 p.m. and I could walk freely because the whole place was lit up but you know and then I got to another street and it was so dark it was pitch dark but if somebody jumped me or if somebody was walking two meters in front of me I wouldn't know you know so these are some of the little things those are little ways that you can solve security that you can you know solve issues of security the street camps and so many things you know that we can pay that we can actually use the security votes for so it's not really about understanding there are places that are more diverse than Nigeria South Africa seems to be more diverse than Nigeria there are so many nationalities in the United States so it's all about doing what you have to do have the right infrastructure and then the people will be okay all right pay money for security and do what you have to do educate and innovate but we don't want to have conversations. When this comes, when people bring up issues of less of the dialogue, less of the conversation around restructuring, I do not know why they are afraid. If you don't have any conversations, maybe some of you do, some of us just don't see it. Well Pimba thank you so much we know we have to let you go because you have other things to attend to me thank you for speaking with us. It was always a pleasure. All right back back to you Islima, smile I beg your pardon. You made an issue of the security vote so I wanted to you know circle back to that. If you are saying that the state governors played a role in what's happening today. Now the southern governors have decided to take a stand because they do not want to have more problems in their states and that stand maybe not everything is going to sit well with everybody. But don't you think that the southern governors are doing something that the governors in the north should have done? I mean they're trying to protect their own people because the governors in the north have not done so. I mean for you to make an example of people who their cattle have been rustled, people who have been frustrated, people whose needs have not been met, taking on you know let's say terrorism because what's happening now is full blown terrorism. People carrying AK47s that are not licensed. So this is a failure on the part of governors in that in those areas. For example in Kaduna state we see what's been happening the kidnappings the government has said that they're not going to negotiate. Parents have had to rally round and do go fund me so that they can rescue their children. The soldiers have also done their bit. But then the several people we've spoken to, security experts have said that the government's body language is also part of the problem in terms of dealing with the security. And then there's also an ethnic and religious undertone as to what's happening in Kaduna state. So again the governors in that region seem to be under fire. What is the CNG doing to deal with these issues and liaising with these governments to make sure that they do right by their people? Okay I think one of the first things you will notice in the statement because I'm not sure if you've read the statement where we released the statement yesterday. But of course one of the first thing we address is that this is for that and it exposes the kind of leaders we have in this part of the country. You know I mean it's a wake up call for them but you understand for them to actually wake up to the reality on ground. But I haven't said that is that there was no time we were not at the forefront of calling them to other from the president down to the governors. As a matter of fact some of them don't even want to see our faces because they felt whatever we are talking about is personal. We're probably just picking some of a few of them out for whatever reason they had. But of course you can't guide us. And I'll tell you a point in time where we notice these people are very like a disciple. They're not looking for the solution to this problem. They're not after the solution. Rather probably they are also beneficiaries in this industry of the insecurity in Northern Nigeria. So really we started making some kind of consultations we called retired generals, retired GIGs and all of that. People from different walks of the security system who are retired now and some clergymen both Islamic and Christian religious clergymen. We call for a summit in Kaduna. This kind of summit that is being called for now. We call for this summit in Kaduna at Ariwa House. And unfortunately on a Monday like this the summit was to kickstart at about 10 a.m. About 300 hoodlums were put together with all manner of ammunition to come and disperse us at that meeting. Some dignitaries escaped through the windows. That's to tell you the kind of people these people are. Of course you will know that nobody in this right frame of mind, no youth in this right frame of mind, will come when we're trying to look for a solution, especially something that is actually one of the greatest problems confronting us in this part of the country now, will not on the Monday morning leave his work, leave his job, whatever it is, and now go get all manner of arms to say no, these people must not sit. So does this mean that somebody is benefiting from the chaos and the killings, the insecurity in the north? It doesn't mean that there's a higher power that is benefiting from the killings, the insecurity in the north and does not want it to change because I'm trying to understand who would send hoodlums to a meeting like that. Some persons, of course, it's obvious. It's obvious some persons are benefiting from a system that is absolutely correct. If nobody's benefiting from the system, how do you put hoodlums together? We all know that nothing happens of such in Nigeria without a sponsor. Some persons who are benefiting, who are these people that want to put an end to this thing? And they came and attacked us, they dispersed us, it was all over in the news. The next day I was on AIT just to speak about this. You see, that's the problem. So really, I feel they all know what they're doing because the same people who are benefiting. In some cases, you ask yourself, when people are coming together to say, oh, there's kidnapping in this place and then we need to negotiate and all of that and all of that. You do not know how to contact these people before this crime is being committed, but immediately the crime is being committed. All of a sudden, no, the people who can reach them within less than 24 hours, your people are already reaching out to them and they are already negotiating and yet you cannot use the same media to address these issues and you tell me, come on. So really, what's just mind-boggling is how wicked can anybody be to be benefiting from these killings and all of that. Sometimes when they negotiate, I can tell you that the bandits themselves are actually getting maybe 30 or 40% of the money. The people who are running the industry get the lion's share. Well, Samayla, I mean, I would love to continue this conversation because of course, the million dollar question is how do we get these people cut down so that this does not continue because like you have stated, somebody obviously is gaining and benefiting from this. But I want to say thank you, Samayla, Moussa, for speaking with us. We really, really appreciate it. You're welcome. All right. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break and when we return, Yahya Bello speaks on restructuring. We'll get to find out after this break.