 So, we're live now, so I'm going to, this is Senate government operations. It is Friday, March 18th, and I'm going to put on my mask until I start eating my sandwiches. And then we're having, we're in this odd situation here where we have to use masks in the same house. And yet we just got off the floor, so we're all eating our lunch. And it, believe me, it is really hard to eat your lunch through these masks. They are meant to keep out particles, and they do. So, thank you, Congressman Welk. Welcome, and we're very happy to see you. And we, you know all of us. I do. Good, we would like to introduce ourselves then to you. It's good to see you. Alison, hi. Exciting. Senator Palamore, Senator Palena. Senator Rahm, and Keisha, good to see you. I'm glad you're, you're still well, you know, the COVID infection. We are. Yeah, I'm lucky. I'm lucky, thank you. Yeah. Are you feeling much better? You know, I never really felt too bad. I, you know, I tested positive, but if I hadn't tested positive, I wouldn't have hesitated to just go about my daily activities. So I've been, I've been lucky. Yeah. You happen. You know, get, get, get boosted. You know, it helped. Oh, yeah. Well, our count, our daily count yesterday was 117, I think, and only 12 hospital admissions. So most people are just probably wouldn't even know that they had it if they didn't get tested. So, so let me, I know that your time is very limited. We, as you know, did a burn pit bill a couple of years ago. And we also know that you are working on burn pit legislation in the US house. So we would love to hear from you about where that is and how we might help you and how you might help us. You know, I really, Senator White, I really, really appreciate you having this hearing because we can't let off the energy to get this burn pit legislation passed through the Senate. There's good news here. The good news is this is past the house in a past the house with a very strong bipartisan vote. The good news is Senator Sanders and Senator Leahy are totally committed to bring it across the finish line in the Senate. And I want to just step back for a minute to express what I think is an extraordinary Vermont story about this burn pit legislation. You know, we asked our men and women to serve. We had service men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan. And none of them who served and none of us who depended on their service were aware that there was a Defense Department practice that in retrospect, you can't believe it was allowed to happen. Instead of having in a way of disposing of all the waste and it's tough out in a war zone. We all know that. But what they did is just pile it into a pit and just anything and everything they threw in there to burn it. And there was little foresight into the fact that much of what was being burned was toxic. So it's literally these toxic fumes that were burning 24 hours a day. And many of our service members who were stationed in the vicinity of those burn pits were breathing toxic cancer laden air for the time of their service. You know, if we had a discussion about should we do burn pits because it's easy and because of the exigency of the circumstances. But we knew that what was going in there were toxic chemicals among all the other stuff. We would say no. You know, it's one thing for the men and women who sign up to serve that they know they're risking their lives. But they're risking their lives in combat in service. There shouldn't be risk risking their lives because we put them in harm's way. We put them in harm's way with the toxic burn pit. And of course, one of the frustrations that I think all of us have is that when we see our Vermonters, and by the way, you know, we have the Vermont really among the highest enlistment rates oftentimes the highest enlistment rate in the country. And this is a tradition that was not just amplified in Iraq and Afghanistan that goes back to the Civil War. We lost more Vermonters in the North than any other state in the Union. There's a tradition here of service. And what happens is that when these soldiers are there and then they come back and suddenly they get sick and I see June Heston, she's going to play such a major role in this and you know suffered such a grievous loss of her beautiful husband, Michael. It's invisible to the rest of us. We didn't know about it. We'd like to know about it. We didn't know about it. And then service members like Michael, like Michael Cram, you know, Pat Cram was the first person who contacted me about this and we had a meeting with her unit member with yes, Mike's unit members out at Camp Johnson. It's invisible. And then these families start dealing with these illnesses. And there's a connection they think makes sense to the burn pit exposure. But they face a wall of denial for months and years. And honestly, you know, again, June, you can speak to this, you know, with great unfortunate personal experience, but to be in a position where as a person who's signed up to service, who's taken on the risk, but then to get sick and to be told, you know, stop complaining or it's not related to your service to your country. This wall of denial and objection is just awful to have that be the reaction after the sacrifice that our men and women in service have made. So what happened here? And this is what I think is so wonderful about the Vermont story. You know, Pat Cram, her husband, Mike, was in a unit where several people have cancer and they started beating the drum and June, who's lost her husband, Michael, started beating the drum. Wesley Black and his wife down here, Wesley just died of a ton of heart for firefighter. They were making the case. Similar to what happened in Vietnam, we all remember Agent Orange again, the decision was made by the higher ups in the military that they essentially would spread this toxic insecticide and herbicide over Vietnam to defoliate everything, ignoring the reality that under the leaves in the trees were US soldiers and they got cancer from Agent Orange. And then all these soldiers had to fight for years and years to be able to get a health care treatment for the injuries that were inflicted by the United States on our service members. And that, you know, that is appalling. It's just not right. And, you know, the cost of the war has to include the cost of caring for the warrior. So with the leadership of people like Pat in June and their counterparts in areas all across the country, they raised the awareness. And more importantly than raising the awareness, they raised the issue of justice for our men and women in service. And their advocacy has been so effective that it resulted in the House passing this legislation now in the Senate, which I'm confident will pass, where as with Agent Orange, anyone who is exposed to burn pits and has an illness, there'll be a presumption that their illness is a result of their service and they will be getting in a timely way the health care that they need. So obviously this is too late to help June's husband and it's too late for Pat's, but what they have done with their energy is turn their grief into advocacy for others. And it's resulted in the passage in the House of this major legislation. Which now is going to be considered in the Senate, I believe, passed. And as you heard in his State of the Union address, President Biden is fully supportive and is ready to sign this. And you know, it really started with promoters. But I also want to say the partnership here is so important because we had citizen advocates like Pat in June. We had a congressional delegation that they had access to. It's no big deal. You know, June can call me up, Pat can call me up for Bernie or Patrick. And, you know, we're glad to hear from them and get on the case with their advocacy, but they also had a Vermont legislature that did what it could. You don't have jurisdiction over the VA, but you passed legislation in 2019 that again intensified the concern and the justice of the issue. And that amplified our voice in Congress, because we were able to point to the broad basis support bipartisan. And the Vermont House and Senate to stand up for our veterans. So I really appreciate it that you're here. I appreciate it. What you've done in, you know, all of us who are so fortunate is to have a position in public office where our responsibility is to take seriously the concerns of the people we represent to have had this opportunity in this cause of justice to take up the cause that our citizens have led. And, you know, I I I applaud you for for this hearing and for your commitment. And I applaud all of us for seeing this. It's about the men and women who have served us. It is not about Republican or Democrat. It's not about political advantage. It's about doing the right thing, even if it's later than it should have been done. So thank you one and all. And I see, you know, Bob, Bob Burke, you've done a great job. It's fantastic to have as your partner in June. I really look forward to hearing you. And I just want to get expressed to you since you're on the phone right now how much I admire what you've done. And I also want to say I have many interactions with your wonderful husband. And I would talk to him on the phone. Oftentimes around the play coming back from D.C. together and I remember talking to him. And I know he did three tours, right? Yeah. I mean, think about that. He did three tours. He has this wonderful wife and family and he does three tours serving us. And I found him so gentle and warm and helpful, even as he was having to face combat situations thousands and thousands of miles away. So each of us who has an opportunity to be responsive to that we're playing a very, very small part because the folks who've done the real hard work and made the real sacrifice. It's the Michael Hastings, the Michael Crambs, the Wesley Blacks and their partners who stood by him every step of the way. So thank you so much for permitting me to to be here. And I salute you for doing your part. And I know you join me in saluting the Vermonters who have served us so well, so bravely and with no limit on the sacrifice they were willing to make for our state and our country. Thank you. Thanks. I am going to thank you very much. And I am going to mention two people's names here who who don't who are in the background. But I think we're absolutely instrumental in what happened in Vermont. And the first one is the ex-sheriff from Wyndham County, Keith Clark. And I had breakfast with Keith about once every three weeks. And one day we were having breakfast and he said, my friend, Mike Heston, just died. And he died because of the burn pits. And I said, what on earth are the burn pits? And he said, you have to do something about it. And you're in the legislature and do something. And I had no idea what to do. And I went to Tim Ash, which is who's the second person I'm giving a lot of credit to. I went to Tim Ash and I said, this is a huge issue. What can we do? And he said, just start having a hearing and we'll do some kind of a bill. And June and Wesley were the first people that came in and testified to us. And I think that it it just solidified us. But I just needed to give credit to Keith Clark for for bringing up the issue at all. I've never heard of a burn pit and and Keith himself. He was a friend of Mike's, but he himself served by the burn pits. So he was also worried for himself and for everybody else. So I just I just needed to call out those two people because I think they were very helpful in getting this done. And and it is one. Although we I will tell you that Senator Clarkson continually wanted to take on the DOD. She insisted that that we do that we just chastise them and take them on and tell them they can't do that. And we we calmed her down enough so that we could actually get a piece of legislation that made a difference, we we hope. So thank you. Thank you very much. And what we're doing is we just want an update on where we are in the state and how working with the medical society and everything has. Whether it's doing anything and I know the National Guard General Knight is right before the pandemic hit. He had a mobile units that he was going to take around the state and work with legislators in their communities to sign people up. He had mobile computers and technicians to work them and stuff. So just yeah, thank you very much. Alison, did you have a comment? I did. So given it already out of the bag, Peter, my concern with the DOD is that we continue to allow the DOD to to not practice what American law abroad that we that they can go rogue that internationally and not abide by laws. They would not be allowed. You know, they would not be allowed to break do those things in America. So at some point, I do think that the DOD needs to be held accountable for practices that that are consistent with American law. And and because the international environment is our environment, too, as we all are coming to appreciate. OK, thanks, Alison. I said wrong, so thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Congressman, and everyone to this report. You have to go, Congressman. I think we all have that story of a loved one or a friend who either did experience and we've lost them or is experienced a great hardship because of the burn pit. I'm thinking of my friend, Brent Reader. He's one of the last speakers of Abenaki. He has four daughters. He is very open about having his utilities go off and on because he just really struggles to keep the lights on and stay employed, having diverticulitis and, you know, dealing with so much pain and trauma as an Iraq war veteran. And it makes me wonder how we can and if this came up during the passage of the bill, how when someone has an illness, you know, as a veteran, we might be able to give them the benefit of the doubt in general that it was service related. I mean, people have fought so long and hard for this specific issue. And I know he's going to face other, you know, disabilities and other health concerns and, you know, why we would we would make our veterans be through so much paperwork, so many denials to get any care when it doesn't cost that much money to be proactive and treat them and make sure that they have regular screenings, that they feel comfortable going and getting care and not worried that something will be denied. I just don't think that should ever happen for veterans. And I hope that conversation can go on here. Well, you know, Senator Ron, you have a good point. In other words, there are some of us who think that if you served in the military, one of the benefits you might get is that access to health care for the health care that you need. You don't have to do the the the the the proof that it was specifically related to service. But of course, that's a challenge we have in our entire health care system as you know, in a reason why the Vermont legislature and my others, Bernie, Patrick and me have been working so hard to get a better health care system where it doesn't depend on whether you have employer sponsored health care, it doesn't depend on whether you're richer or you're poor, basically, you know, in most other countries, if you're sick, then you have access to a doctor and there's not a lot of questions about where you got sick, was it in the service, was it on the job? So you're making a point that I think has broad application and I tend to agree with you. OK, yeah, good guy. Yeah, thank you. Any other questions for the congressman? Yes, yeah, I'll just say it's great to see you again, congressman. Oh, yeah, Peter. OK, thank you. I just keep going back to the testimony from West of Black. It was just the most powerful. One minute thing that all of us have ever experienced. And we miss it. Well, you know, you're right, he was so brave. You know, he I was I was able to attend his service in Hartford. And it was amazing hearing the stories about how the fire department there worked to make certain that Wesley wanted to work until he absolutely couldn't work. You know, it was that being of service and of use was what was so important to him every day of his life. And he was able to work well beyond what people thought. And then they made some adjustments so he could do other things that didn't require the kind of physical strength that he had so much of before. And I was inspired by how he was determined to get everything out of every day of life and serve. And I was really inspired by his colleagues in the fire department who were with him every step of the way to help out. And in fact, you know, his wife, she she was. She when some of the fire department folks from Hartford came down to Washington, they had kids and they were going to be advocating on the burn pit legislation. And Wesley's wife, the wonderful woman, she babysat their kids so they could come down. I mean, it's just that kind of sense of community that, you know, is so powerful in Rutland where, you know, you're from and they don't ever help you to provide for sure. I just don't remember it shivering. I know. I know that first day Wesley testified with some power. And and I remember June's comment I quoted it on the floor and actually broke down. Well, I was saying that I don't remember it exactly now, but it was this isn't going to do anything for me. But please don't let other people base this. It was it was really powerful. But yeah, they've been diverse. So June and Wesley were a great team in June. It's so good to see you here on this issue for sure. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah, it's wonderful to see you. So thank you, Congressman. I guess I did you go away? No, I just went into a little box. Now we're now we're putting you in a little box now. OK, you know, I'll be I'll be leaving. I want to listen to June, but I really appreciate you doing this. And it's really an honor to be here with with June and in Bob and in Katie Van Haste, of course, from Bernie's office, who's been a great partner. So we have Peter has I just want to say thank you for being you appreciate it. Thanks, Anthony. All right. And so, June, do you want to give us an update about where what's happening with you and your organization and what you're doing? And I know you've got a huge impact nationwide. And so welcome, June. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for holding this hearing. And I I I feel like I'm just a small fraction of what's been going on nationwide. I have been participating in the team coalition, which is toxic exposure of our American military, which consists of essentially over 30 different veterans, organizations and nonprofits who are working on this issue, along with many other issues. And I want to thank Congressman Welch for the legislation that just passed the House. That is a huge move in the right direction. And I do think that Senator White and Senator Ash got things going with the legislation here in Vermont, because I'm not sure that I would have figured out how to how to take this on without that initial push. So thank thank you to all of you for what you've done so far. I will say that I did get a call from from Senator Lee, he's staff regarding the proposal of it's S 3541, which they had sent me a one pager of what that looks like. And so I let them know that I thought S 3541 is like putting a bandaid on something that needs a tourniquet. And it is, I think the PACT Act is much more comprehensive. It's going to take care of our veterans much more than what is being proposed by S 3541. So I want our senators to know that because this is this is an important issue. They are now predicting that we're going to lose more veterans to illness than we are suicide and losing a lot to suicide. We need to have this attention paid to this issue. And I think that that the PACT Act is moving the right direction. The only thing that concerns me about it is there are some presumptive illnesses on there, the cancers that are on there are predominantly respiratory. And that's not what our veterans are dying from. They're dying from rare forms of cancer, esophagus cancer, pancreatic cancer, gallbladder cancer. Like it's not just respiratory. And that's something that I hope we can move in that direction because the the science right now shows that it the number one illness that our veterans are dying from from toxic exposure is glioblastoma, with which the president's son died from. And then it's I think it's lymphoma and leukemia and then pancreatic cancer and then colon colorectal cancer. So we we need to broaden this a little bit. Yes, it's great that we're going to be able to get our veterans enrolled. They have a 10 year period to get enrolled in the VA system because so many of our veterans are not enrolling in the VA system. So after they've been out five years, they were out of luck. That's been extended to 10. That's great. But but we need to raise awareness. So I'm interested in knowing, you know, has the Department of Health in Vermont done anything regarding this legislation to get the word out to our health care providers? Because for our veterans here in Vermont, the majority are our National Guard. They're they're not necessarily going to be seeing someone at the VA. The VA is much more aware of this now than they were when Mike was diagnosed. But it's our community doctors and providers that need this information and need to know to ask the question, are you a veteran and do you think you were exposed to toxic exposures from burn pits or from a number of other things that are going on in the military? Thanks, June. And I think we'll come back to you. We're going to hear from Jessa. That's the exact question we have for her. And that was one of the one of the reasons we wanted to do this so that we could hear where we were, what what has happened, what the responses were, how our practitioners, our medical providers are addressing it and stuff. But I'm going to go first to Catherine. Catherine is from Senator Sanders office and Catherine, welcome here. I don't know if you will have a very limited time frame also, but please weigh in and tell us what you want. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for having me. I hope you can hear me OK. Let me know if you need me to get closer to my computer. No, my time is decently flexible. My only caveat is that the senator is here in the office today, but he knows I'm testifying before all of you. And he said that should take priority. So and I have to say hello to June as well, who I always love seeing, though these circumstances are never my favorite. But I learned, I will say to the committee and to June from the first hearing that we did with her and with West Black, I now bring my tissues to these hearings, which I do, but it's important. So I will keep it pretty brief. I thought it would be helpful to just share with you some of what is happening right now in Washington. But I don't want to repeat too much of what the congressman has already shared and what June has shared as well. One thing that I thought was noteworthy, partly because it just happened two days ago, was during a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing with Dr. Terry Rausch, who is the Acting Deputy Assistant Secretary for Defense, Health, Readiness, Policy and Oversight, he was asked during the hearing how many of the four million service members and contractors who deployed in the past 20 years to combat zones were exposed to airborne hazards. And his answer was all of them. And I think that's just a really important point to make, which I think all of us here in this room know. But as we discussed that whole issue of presumptive benefits, presuming that someone has been exposed, it is really clear at this point and it's admitted by the Department of Defense, which I think is an important step that we've come to. I also can't help but acknowledge this week I'm going to now get up. We lost a great national advocate for veterans in the passing of Gary Augustine, who was DAV's executive director. He was in that position at the time that Senator Sanders was chair of the Veterans Committee in the Senate and was just an absolute stalwart for Vietnam veterans. He was a Vietnam veteran himself and for disabled veterans. And I think is a real role model as we look to being advocates for presumptive illnesses. It was critically important DAV's role as well as Vietnam veterans of America in fighting for those presumptive for Vietnam era veterans, which came embarrassingly too late, frankly. And I think we have learned from the work of those good advocates that we cannot wait to do the same for our veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan. So I just want to acknowledge his passing this week. You know, I think we know the history here. We know the number and degree to which veterans were exposed to to burn pits. I think we've made some progress since we had those initial hearings. And I really commend all of the advocates, as well as the work of the Vermont Legislature. I think you brought some firepower to this fight that we needed and got the attention of the folks to start to make some changes. I think, you know, as you mentioned, this was something that President Biden mentioned in his State of the Union earlier this month, you know, invoking the very personal story of his own son. I think, you know, to my mind, it's it's good news that we have a president who understands the plight of our service members, veterans and their families. Because I think the the impact of our families should not be lost in this discussion either. Senator, I'm sorry, Congress and Welch already walked through a lot of the legislation that's passed in the House and really appreciate June's comments as well as to some of the differences between the House legislation and Senate legislation. You know, one thing that I think is important to call out in this discussion is in the Congress, a lot of the discussion that is happening between the bills is much more focused on the price tag that it is on policy differences. You know, I think policy differences are something that members can come together and debate and discuss and common ground. But I think, unfortunately, the House's bill has about a three hundred billion dollar price tag over 10 years. And unfortunately, there are a number of members in the Senate who consider that price tag to be too high. The one thing I would say to that. So again, we're talking about three hundred billion dollars over 10 years. Congress just approved seven hundred and eighty two billion dollars in defense spending for this year alone. So I think when we talk about the spending, we need to be very clear about what we're talking about from Senator Sanders perspective. You know, he has he has said this more times than I can count. The cost of war has got to include the cost of caring for the warrior. And if we are comfortable spending seven hundred and eighty two billion dollars per year on defense spending, the idea that we balk at three hundred billion dollars for our veterans seems incongruous. And I think we really need to call out that hypocrisy where it comes up. One other comment I wanted to make and it sort of flows right from this budget discussion and our willingness to spend to care for our veterans and send it around. Hinsdale, you spoke to this when you talked about how complicated it is to enroll in benefits and then to access your benefits. The committee has heard this from me before, but I always like to just highlight the fact that this red tape exists because of the limited budget that the Department of Veterans Affairs has. If the Department of Veterans Affairs had the money they needed to care for all veterans for all of their health care needs, we wouldn't be making veterans jump through hoops to prove that they need care. We would simply be able to provide it for them. And so from Senator Sanders perspective, it has always been critically important that we give VA the funding they need to care for the veterans that they are responsible for. You know, I think I've said this before, but, you know, when a young person, a 17-year-old, an 18-year-old enlists in the military and signs their name on that dotted line that they're going to protect our nation, we don't have a lot of caveats for them to be able to provide. You know, I won't do it in this instance. I won't go here. I won't take this job. They sign up. No caveats. We should be providing health care in the same manner. We should not be caveating the health care that we provide to our veterans after they have fulfilled their side of the contract to our government and to all of us. And I would just say to that point, you know, one of the things that Senator Sanders has, one of the pieces of legislation that he has introduced this year is a bill that would simplify the enrollment process for veterans so that more veterans can enroll, which is a critically important step, obviously, in ensuring that they get the benefits from the VA that they deserve. He has also been a long staunch advocate for dental services, access to veterans, because we know that there's only very few veterans today who have access to dental care. And we know both for our Iraq and Afghanistan veterans, as well as many other veterans, dental care is directly related to all of our health care and they should not be forced to distinguish between the two. In closing, I will just say that our office is here to help. We stand ready to help break down any red tape between the National Guard and the VA if we can help with firewalls, if we can help more Vermont veterans and National Guard members enroll in the burn pit registry, we want to do that. Senator Sanders has a online newsletter that we send a couple of newsletters each and every week to about 165,000 Vermonters. A ton of about 50,000 folks read it every week. And so we are ready to use that to share this message. We are preparing a veteran's newsletter right now that will go out to all of our veterans and we're happy to share information about the burn pit registry and everything they need to know about what's happening in Vermont and the advocacy that's been done here. To help fight for them and for their families. So please, please know that both to our stakeholders here who are here today, but also to our legislators. We consider all of you are constituents, so please let us know how we can help at any point. We are ready to do that. Thank you. Thank you. Any questions for Catherine? Yes. Thanks, Catherine. I, you know, I know that having been here for decades, sometimes these kinds of gestures can seem symbolic. And I know that Senator Sanders and Senator Leah are already fighting. It sounds like for the more comprehensive package. But does it help at all if the legislature passes a resolution, you know, encouraging the Senate to pass something much more like the House version and to invest in our veterans just so we can also raise attention here that this issue is up for debate in Washington and give you the support you need from the brave little state of Vermont to help get a better package passed in the Senate. That's a great question. And I'm going to answer you as brutally, honestly, as I think my boss would if he was sitting here, which is to say that while we appreciate the support and we certainly welcome that support and love knowing that Vermont stands behind us, it probably will not tip the scales for the members who are now currently unwilling to support the legislation. But I would encourage is if you have relationships with legislators in other states and we're happy to share information that we have about, you know, who we think is on the fence, if you know people in those states, whether it be legislators or just citizens of the state who can help to speak to those members about why this is so important, why it can't wait and why it is a critically important and valuable investment of taxpayer dollars. We're more than happy to help with that. That's very fair. And I appreciate the honesty and I can think of the states that you're probably would otherwise name, but that's very fair. So it would be helpful if you said you could set to get all the list of states and then we can circulate that among our colleagues. And my guess is many of the people from those states are saying, where's Vermont? Is that part of me? So I'll still hear from us. Yes. I'm happy to do that. I'll get that to Gail. Thank you. So I'm not speaking out of turn, but I did talk to somebody who said that they expected layoffs at some of the VA's around the medical centers around the country. I don't know if that's privileged information that was shared with me, but are you anticipating any layoffs at medical centers or other VA staff to be laid off? That's a great question and might be a hearing in and of itself. What I can share is that the person you spoke with was probably alluding to what's known as the Air Commission, which is something that was created out of the VA Mission Act, which was legislation that was passed in 2018. And I will say that Senator Sanders was one of the five votes against the passage of that legislation because he had incredibly strong concerns that it would lead to the privatization of the VA. And unfortunately, through the recommendations of the Air Commission, we are seeing that real continued march towards privatization. It's sort of too soon to tell exactly what will happen. We don't know yet. There, you know, at this point, we know that White River Junction is, you know, on the list to stay. But we don't know exactly all of the details about what could happen in other parts of the country, even potentially in other parts of our state. So it was a little early, so I don't want to worry people unnecessarily. But certainly, you know, we are going to do everything we can to keep our hospital and our clinics strong and keep the VA employees that we have in place. And I will say to that point, it isn't just about our current employees. It's about actually hiring more employees. We don't actually have enough staff at our VA now. So certainly, we don't want to be reducing that staffing in any way she performed. Well, thank you so much. And I mean, June, did you have a comment that I'm going to re-jump to Bob Burke and then to Dessa and then back to June. And then round. Thank you. I just wanted to applaud Kate for what she said that this is, you know, it is appalling that the DOD can can put all this money towards defense, but not to to the defender. And so I applaud you for saying that in trying to get people into the VA system. That's that's the first step, like that they're in the system. But then when they're in the system, I don't know if everybody knows that it's a priority system. So even if you're in the system, if you're lower down on the list and right now that I think the PAC Act says priority six, like unless you unless presumption of illness is passed, then you're not going to necessarily get disability. Disability is what gets you to the top of the list. And so that is, I think the end game is to make sure that the list of presumption presumptive illnesses is as comprehensive as it can be. And then with Agent Orange, we're still adding presumptive illnesses. I mean, yeah, we can't let that happen again. Thank you, Joe. So, Bob, would you like to tell us what's happening from that, from your perspective? Sure, but do you know Senator Rom Hinsdale? She's new to the committee since you testified with us. Hi, Senator Keisha Rom Hinsdale from District County. I served on military affairs on the house side a long time ago, but I think in that window, you probably started to show up as a witness more. Yeah, so I'd like to expand upon what June was just talking about. So I spent 28 years in the Navy, retired in 2012. I spent a year in Afghanistan on the same base that Mike did. But although technically eligible for VA medical care, I will never be seen because of income, household income. You know, my prioritization would put me, I think, in my G or seven or whatever they call it now. So why would I go through the trouble of, you know, providing all the documentation to try and get seen when I already know that I'm never going to be seen? I would love to. I'd love to use the VA. I think they're a great health care provider in the state of Vermont. Through waiver, rejuvenation and community-based outreach clinics. But unfortunately, I'm eligible will never be seen in that system. So that's just a clarification. I did send Gail a couple of slides, one that kind of tracked Vermont's armpit registry data from 2018 through yesterday. Yeah, we're on our desks. Oh, super. OK, so we've come a long way, but even now in 2022, we're less than a third of, you know, the amount of Vermonters who deployed just to Afghanistan and Iraq, let alone, you know, Djibouti, you know, Kuwait, other places like that. And, you know, Katie mentioned an interesting number and I don't know if you have the four million that you got from through the DOD. And I'm not sure what percent of those are were military versus contractor. But so as of 2021, there are only two hundred and forty nine thousand and sixty one people who have participated in the registry. So it is a fraction, right, not even 10 percent of that number that you gave. And, you know, if you look at the how it has grown annually, it's it levels off at about twenty eight thousand, like that we're adding each year. So we're still we're in the infancy of collecting the amount of data that the VA typically requires in order to get to that presumptive letter, right, because they're data driven, evidence driven, and medical evidence driven to come up with presumptives. So that, you know, that's part of the issue also, you know, because as somebody just mentioned, we're still adding presumptives to 50 years ago in the use of Agent Orange. So, you know, I try and be an optimist, but unfortunately I'm not. Maybe it would blow my blood pressure. But this is going to be a long. You know, that's that's the honest answer. There's not an overnight overnight solution. It is a lot of money and there's a lot of other things that need to be paid for. So I'm not I applaud the bill, but I'm not sure where it's going. So happy Friday. So the faster we can sign people up, the faster the sooner we can add the presumptive illnesses to the list. That's correct. That's correct, because then, you know, it's epidemiologically driven. It's not passion driven, which is a good thing. But it's here's the clear evidence. We've got a surviving spouse that is trying to connect her service, connect her husband from Vietnam and the particular narrow type of cancer that he has is not included in the presumptive. So we've explained to her, she doesn't want to hear, but we've explained that it's going to be denied because somebody is going to look and it doesn't fit, right? Trying to put a square hole, square peg and round hole. So it's going to have to go on appeal. And there's now still 140,000 legacy appeals in the VA system. So we're looking at a long time. So go ahead, thank you, madam chair. I'm just curious, Bob, looking at the chart, did we do a great job in 2018, letting people know is that why it went up 11,000? And then it sort of went down again. And I guess you could say it's steady the rest of the time. But that seemed like a big jump that year. Yeah, yeah, there's two, you know, 2016 and 2018. We're kind of small blips at the national level. And out of this report, this was a 17 or 18 page report that I pulled this out of. There was no indicator on what, you know, what was the causation for those two blips, not sure. But when did they change? When was it changed from five years to 10 years? The eligibility. Yeah. I don't, I don't recall that date. I just want to see if that might have had any impact in the report. June, do you know? Yes, it has not changed yet. It's in the PACT Act. Oh, OK. So it has not yet passed. And the other thing that Bob spoke to with the registry, it is the registry is bad data. This new legislation talks about doing epidemiology studies separate from the registry. Mike's in the registry, but there's no information. He registered as soon as it came out in 2014. There's no way that there can be any update to say he died of cancer connected, service connected illness in the registry. So it's bad data. So what we, so I think, though, those numbers will speak to people and that's why we need to get them into the registry. But the legislation that says, let's just do the epidemiology studies is what matters. And they said, can we change the registry? It's a broken system. So I wish people to get registered in a broken system. But it's all we have, though. It's all we have. Yeah, I get that. Bob, are you. So as part of the legislation, there is a mechanism to do registry updates. It's it's it's it's in there. There's no time limit to completing the registry. Right. So I came back in 2008. I didn't do the registry until 2018 or 19. So there's no time limitation on when you can participate. It could be 2002 or three and you can go on and you can participate in the registry. And in June is right. I mean, it's not it's not really data driven. It gives you numbers. It doesn't get specific. And you can't update it 10 years later. You know, I was fine back then. But oh, look, what's happened? You know, I was at an event with Congressman Walsh Welch last Monday and somebody somebody asked me that question because they said, you know, I've developed two different illnesses that I think are linked back to. You know, can I go in and update? And I kind of already knew the answer, but I posed the question to the environmental folks down at White River Junction. And there is not. There's not a mechanism to update the registry at this time. Can you remind us that the number and name of the House bill that has been sent to the Senate so that if we when I'm thinking you know, if we're going to encourage people to support it, we need to have more specific number. And yeah, I have it right here. OK, that's H.R. three nine six one three nine six seven. Sorry. Three nine six seven. Three nine six seven. OK. Great. So. And I think that we're going to do this hopefully just kind of as a conversation here, just have people jump in like we have. But and, Jessica, do you want to talk to us a little bit about what's happening with the medical community in Vermont and with the. But we all agreed that the medical community would be doing in terms of asking, asking their patients if they were veterans and if they had, I think the thing at that time was if they served in those five theaters. Sure. Good afternoon. Jessica Barnard, the executive director of the Vermont Medical Society. And thanks for having us this afternoon. I just want to be clear on sort of what the bill asked for and what we've done. So the bill actually asked for the Department of Health to develop materials, a brochure and other materials on what the burn pit registry is. And they they we are not the Department of Health. I don't want to speak for them, but they do have materials now available. And then it asked them to cooperate with licensing boards and professional membership associations to make sure the information is available so that practitioners who are not just, as you've said, in the VA system, but private or at hospitals or wherever they are know to inform their patients that the registry exists. So we are we are a very small piece of the puzzle. We are a professional membership association only for physicians and PAs. But I'm happy to let you know, you know, we have shared the information with our members. We've put it in our we have a weekly newsletter. We've put information in there. We have legislative updates. So when the bill was under consideration and then passed, we shared information that way. And we now have sort of a permanent link on our website that leads people to the Vermont Department of Health website on the burn pit registry. So that is, you know, again, what the bill sort of asked for that information to be disseminated, and we've been very happy to be part of that process. I can't, unfortunately, speak to if, you know, if the Department of Health or others have done, you know, have have other efforts that they've been undertaking as well. Do you know if has there been any survey or anything of the members, the providers, to see if they're actually sharing the information with their patients and getting the information and sending their patients to the burn pit registry? We have not done one as a membership association. I don't know if any other organizations have surveyed clinicians or health care facilities about that. Because I we're going to remind me how many people in Vermont are eligible. Is it ten thousand? Yeah. OK. Yeah. And we are not 130. So how many are eligible? I think it's about ten thousand. That's correct. It's in. I don't have the exact number, but it's it's at least ten thousand. Yeah, at least ten thousand. Yeah. And we have nine hundred and thirty that are signed up. OK, so yes, Brian. Thank you, Madam Chair. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I can swear that I remember talking about public service announcements on radio and television. Um, because I often hear public service for the guard all the time, they're in a contract, I think, with the Vermont Association of Broadcasters to run so many of those a month on all the stations. And I wonder whether we could take advantage of that existing contract that changed the copy, so to speak, to reflect this or find a way through the Vermont Association of Broadcasters, which represents both radio and TV to air a series of, I mean, there's got to be a way to get the word out if we're not doing a great job. If there's only nine hundred people signed up, did I just dream that? Or didn't we talk about that? And do you remember in the legislative who was going to do the PSAs? You were, no, you weren't going to do them. You remember who? I worked, was working with WCAX, the general manager at WCAX, and they had agreed to do it, but we it never came to fruition. I am happy to follow up on that because I think it would be important to get that information out there. I'm not I'm thinking that the National Guard, when they send out when they do their recruiting ads, I think that's something they pay for, first of all, not public service announcement. And I don't think they want to pay for something that's going to hurt their recruiting potentially. So but if we can get, if I will reach out again to the general manager to say, hey, can we start this conversation again and get a PSA done? You know, let's let's see if we can get VPR and and Vermont Public Television are now the same corporation. Let's see if we can't get them to to do something. I see Peter Hirschfeld running around in here all the time. Maybe we can corner him. Well, it's a story in and of itself, why people aren't their frustration with the VA. I mean, this is a big story. Yeah, the discrepancy between the eligible eligible population and the number of them to find out why they have why they might work with them and what's happening with the VA. I think everybody needs to be knowing this stuff. So, Jesse, do you think that it it can be some kind of a membership survey? And we can ask the other we can ask the Department of Health to have there. And I will take responsibility for do not ask me why when I set this up and was going crazy with setting agendas. I the Department of Health isn't here. That's my that's my bad. So, but ask the Department of Health to work with the other membership organizations to do some kind of a survey to find out how they're doing it or do they you think they have information on how many people actually go to their their website to do it? I imagine the Department of Health can sort of report on hits to their website, for example. I think personally, I think the approach of the bill, which had a section about information getting to clinicians and then a section about information directly to those service members who were in the five listed. Theaters to me seems pro this is just my one opinion, more a better use of time and resources than than a survey. I think we can all do, you know, continued efforts to to get the information out is is probably the right way to go as proposed. You know, and I think it has has been done. I also think, you know, to be fair, the health care world has been very overwhelmed with COVID response for the past two years. So it's probably not bad timing to, you know, as people are kind of able to get their head above the water now to remind, you know, do another round of information, both to the public and to clinicians. That that's just my own two cents of, you know, probably good timing to remind people and to check if the, you know, again, if the Department of Health and the Office of Professional Regulation, you know, you now very well know the differences between those two entities and our health care entity providers, they license. And so, you know, OPR licenses a lot of health care providers as well. And so I think if both the Board of Medical Practice and OPR is willing to, you know, put it in their newsletters and materials they send out to licensees, that will get to a lot of people as well. That's a great suggestion. Thanks, John. I think you're right about the expenditure of time and resources that it's probably better spent. Continuing the push to ask them if they are doing it. OK. So where else do we need to go, committee? What else do we need to? Well, to me, the obvious part, too, is places like the Legion and the VFWs in all of those places. You're talking directly to veterans. Yeah. And I think the National Guard, they were they had that all in place and we're going to do that. And they had this mobile unit. They were. And then COVID hit. And they couldn't do it because people couldn't come out. So maybe this summer is a good time to to promote that. And I know that General Knight has a has is is working on a new schedule for that and and how many they can accommodate. Yeah, I mean, high schools and national VFWs and well, think of all the 4th of July events, people. I mean, you know, just you could there's so much happening than it happens this summer, if if this new variant doesn't take hold and everybody actually emerges, you know, all become more public. We have so many opportunities this summer. So yeah, I want to say. Well, it's Memorial Day. It is a it is a kind of a complicated registry and you have to have the computers and the technician. It isn't something you could just have a the kiosk someplace. It is way more complicated than that. But you could you could do it kind of around Memorial Day and around Veterans Day at different places, not at that events necessarily, but around those five. Did you have a comment? Yes, so the, you know, speaking of things coming up in the summer, the Northeast Kingdom Veterans Summit is coming up on June 3rd. So that's that's going to be an opportunity. You know, will certainly be in the garden will be there, but it it's an opportunity to advocate. That's good. Yeah. So I yeah, I OK. So, June, you're going to follow up with C.A.X. I'm going to I'm going to approach V.P.R. PBS and see if they'll do something. And you do you have contacts in the broadcasting world that we can contact the V.A.V. Yeah, and we'll see if we can get some and get it developed. And then like somebody to actually do it, right. But I think you know, somebody look at the court. We do. They're looking. Are you going to do a video one, two? Yeah, OK, I'll do anything. OK. We have a record saying that. I think I remember before. Yeah, I think you did. Good. Oh, I think you'd be great. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect person. OK. So we can do that. I will contact the Department of Health about making sure that they're keeping the information out. You also see if they could fund some of these PSAs. Well, PSA, if you can get the PSAs, they should be free. Yeah, right. Because if you want to be trying time, you know, it's giving voices of elected officials and what that encourages people to do some very statement about not just trying to pay for the military, but paying for the. Not the not just the the cost of the war should include taking care of the warriors. The warriors right now. Yeah, I think that's. I think people would be willing to voice them. Yeah. I could probably talk to the governor. I mean, do you know PSAs all the time? Sure. OK. Good. All right. I thank you so much. Is there something else we should be doing, June? Is there something else that we should be doing right now? And I think that what what I'd like to do is follow up on some of these things and then come back and make sure that General Knight can join us and also the Department of Health and and so we can plan going forward and hear where we are. Yeah, I think that sounds good. And I just want to say, Senator Clark said, when you're ready to take on the D.O.D. again, when you get that fire, let me know I'll be behind you. June, I I'm right with you. I mean, we wouldn't be here if they were forced to follow U.S. law abroad. That's exactly correct. And so I'm sorry. I just think go to the problem. That's the problem. I mean, yes, let's work on helping better. But let's try and fix the problem at the same time. And this budget thing is so outrageous, seven hundred and eighty two million billion a year and 30 billion 30 billion a year. No, 300 million over 10 years. Oh, it's 300 million over 10 years. Yeah, 30 billion. Oh, yeah, 30 million. Can you say million? No, 300 million over three years. I thought it was million or billion. Billion with a B. B. So 300 billion with a B for 10 years for. Yeah, seven hundred and eighty billion. No, seven hundred and eighty billion a year is the defense budget. Three hundred billion over 10 years. Million. Did you say it? She's got it right. Billion. OK, it was not to help them. Is it a B or L M N? Is it she's B as in boy B as in the three hundred. Yeah, it's 300 billion over 10 years. So that's 30 billion as of a year, as opposed to seven hundred and eighty two billion a year. I mean, that's just a drop in the pocket. It isn't so I think that to go back to Peter's line, the cost of war has to include the cost of care for the warrior. That is such a great line. And that was Bernie's line. Is that Bernie's line, too? Of whoever's line it is, it's a great line. Yeah. And we're going to use it. And we're going to use the term. Yeah, it's a it's a well used line by those who believe in that philosophy. And if I may add our excellent policy staff in DC was has been watching along. And one of the things they encouraged me to share, which I was glad to have the information was that Senator Sanders legislation that would just simply expand the VA to all veterans and remove all of this red tape we're talking about is at the cost of that is three hundred. And sorry, I want to make sure I get it right. Three hundred and eighty three billion per year. So it's not a small price tag, but it is still less than half of our defense budget. And that would, again, cut out all the red tape, make people like Bob able to enroll in the VA, use it for his health care. And I think we could also say from that, obviously, I have my Medicare for all signed behind me. But I would add that, obviously, if you allow all veterans to access the VA for our health care, it's going to reduce the individual costs of health care significantly in our country and make it a lot more affordable for people to get that. You know, can I just clarify? Catherine, did you just say it would cost three hundred and eighty billion B with a B for all veterans to be service per year per year? Yes. And that gets rid of all of the hoops of having to prove presumptive disability and having to prove, you know, which priority group you're in. You just get the care when you walk in the door. Yeah. And you know what? I think if you ask any American, all Americans think that's what the VA does now. Everyone reveals the VA serves all veterans and does and is their health care system. Yeah. And until you know of effort and how hard it is to get into the system and then be cared for in that system, people would be appalled. Yeah, because I think people, I think everyone thinks that's what it exists to do and is doing. Yeah, that's right. And I would simply add, Senator, I think one of the things that we also don't want to miss in this conversation is that veterans are choosing VA. They want to use the VA for their care. This is not something that's being foisted upon them. They want to use the VA. They're they're jumping through all of these hoops, which is proof of just how good the care is when you get in the door. But but, you know, those hoops are tough. And so if we can make it for people, make it easier for people to make that choice, I think that that's just a great, a great benefit. And like you said, what most of America thinks is happening today. Yeah, June, if I could ask you, I'm a big believer in delivering the same message in different ways to, you know, different people. So if you could send me the script once you get it written, whether it's going to be a 30 second or a 60 second PSA. And then I can sort of, I'm trying to say. Yeah, when you write an ad, you don't do a whole bunch of things. You try to have one core message that you keep hammering and delivering over and over and over. I mean, radio works best with repetition. So if you could run 25 or 30 commercials a week after a month or so, a lot of people have heard that message. So I don't know what we want to call this a call to register or have you heard about? I mean, we sort of have to come up with the same message. I can have different people recorded and voice it. And if I'm thinking the right way, you know, a country and Western audience is going to be different than a rock and roll audience. That's different from an oldies audience. But we need to all be saying the same thing, I guess, in different ways. That's all. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. And you're going to get Dan Keen to do the reading. Who? Who? The Loyal Valley, she's Ford. He has a voice for radio. Well, here's our radio show. Rutland Radio Guy. Well, yeah, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm the right fit. You know, I wouldn't necessarily relate to an audience that that is 18 to 25. You need someone from that age cell to say, hey, look, if your dad or your granddad or your uncle is a vet and has experienced this, here's what you need to do. And that's the other part of it, June. We need to come up with a way to funnel it all in one place. It can't just be, you know, for more information. You know, you got to go to a website. They got to call a phone number. They got to do something that's the only way to sort of drive the call to action. And WCAX, when we were meeting, which was two years ago now, they had said that they would interview guardsmen or veterans or or family members. So they have they had a concept in place. So I will I'll reach out and see if I can reignite that fire. Yeah, just copy Gail on it. And that way I'll I'll get it. And great. And I'll do that. OK, but I like your idea of a different appeal to different different audiences and some women. I mean, they're I mean, in a whole range of people. Absolutely. They're all female announcers and musicians. Right. And they don't have to all be announced. They can sometimes it's more effective that they just write regular. Yeah. That high school students that just won the spelling most high school. I don't know why I'm talking about it. Yeah, yeah, some of the resonates with their audience. Exactly. Yeah, that's all. OK, all right. So I'm going to reschedule this in maybe. Well, let's see what this is March 13th. No, 18th family. I wish it was the 13th. Then we have all these days to 18th. So here look at here's my calendar. Yeah, but that's a little too soon. So this is the 18th. Let's try and do it the first week in April. OK, that's like three weeks. That should give us some time to to get in touch with people. And we'll come back and see where we are. Does that work for people? And we'll make sure you all get an invite again. And Catherine, you're going to send us the states we need to lobby. Great. We'll send you the states where members have yet to support the legislation. Yes, that's what we mean. Thank you. And we're focusing on the Senate, right? Yeah, sorry, best of us. Yeah, well, yeah, best of us, we don't need it. Got it. All right. Thank you all so much, Ben. And again, thank you for your continuing effort on this issue, because it is it really is just such an important issue. And we need to we need to keep on it and not let it lag for 50 years like we did with Agent Orange. Agent Orange needed Wesley and Joe and Catherine, Bob and Peter. Agent Orange did not get the same attention early enough. The veterans coming back. No, no, it was such a divisive war. It didn't. So there was. Yeah, but illness. Yes, but but I will tell you that as one of those divisive people. Yeah, it was very divisive then. Yeah, and I think that that is part of why it didn't get the attention that it needed. Representative Hal was telling me, in fact, just the other night, believe this or not. There were got anyone to get on, got shot up. That's why as it's like that there were guys in his unit and he was a Marine that would fill squirt guns with Agent Orange and have squirt gun fights, never realizing what they were doing. No idea what they were doing because the military wouldn't give them bad things. So, oh, my God, June, I just want to say the difference with Agent Orange is they were using it in this country, too, for defoliation of like own lines and and and so they didn't really know what they were doing. The difference is with burn pits. We have OSHA regulations against that and it's still being done overseas. That's my point about the DOV and they knew what they were doing because I remember and I don't know if it was you, June, that said it or was Wesley or whoever it was that at one point on one of the sites, it had started that ashes and the smoke had started pitting the surfaces of the planes. So you couldn't have that happen because I would screw up the planes. So instead, they moved the burn pit closer to where the soldiers were living. Yes, Mike told me that. They knew it was dangerous. Yeah, yeah, it was fitting. Yeah, OK, all right. OK, now that we're all worked up on Friday afternoon.