 what state are we in? We're in the state of clean energy. Why is the state of clean energy? Whether it's true or not doesn't matter. That's what we believe. And here's Maria Tomei and she is equipped in every way to talk about the state of clean energy. Hi Maria. Hi, thanks for having me on here today. We have a great topic today and this is so important and I you know it's always there this topic except doesn't get addressed all the time and how shall I frame the topic is what is the landscape? Who's in charge? Who's doing what? You know we have so many people and organizations involved in clean energy. We don't have a specific identifiable leader in clean energy so how who does what and how is this going to get done if we have our goals and targets to reach? Yeah. You made a list. I didn't make the list. Sorry, you didn't make a list. You got a list. Yeah. Which I respected. It was a draft you know a couple of years ago there was a discussion the energy policy forum had one of those summits and there was a discussion of what would be useful and a lot of folks expressed that knowing who does what and even just having a list of who does what in the energy space would be useful especially because there are always new folks coming in who would like to get a quick review of okay who's in charge of what piece of this puzzle and the next stage was going to be okay what are the incentives and what incentives are missing and what incentives might be working across no I don't think yeah so this was the this was the first one and I didn't put it together you know we discussed it I appreciate it and so let's go through it let's talk about and this is not necessarily in order of importance or of size or power it's just the things that come to mind first things that were on the list you know where the list came from okay what's on the list so it starts off with the legislature because they set the overall state policies and they do the specific goals and objectives as well in statute everybody can see them argue about them eventually change them if they're not going in the right direction so I think that's why the legislature was listed first because they not only established the goals and the policies but they also fund the state agencies that are involved and put into place the incentives that you know might be at the state level can I talk about it now yeah okay they are really not a good choice because energy is like technology it requires expertise requires you know putting your nose on the grindstone all the time reading all the journals understanding the latest technologies knowing what's happening in other states it is very evidence intensive very technology intensive the legislature the house goes every two years and then as a turnover on the committees that turned over the committee chairs may may not have any background training expertise in energy wouldn't it be better if they took advice from the other leaders who were involved in energy or whoever they may be and just you know just sort of accepted their advice and accepted their proposed bills well so after the legislature takes the input from everybody and writes the statute then it is written and it doesn't change every time the legislature changes they've done a good job well at least it's in writing think they've done a good job yeah I mean we have a bill now there's been three times in the legislature who try to deal with the solar and storage issue yeah and three times they haven't passed it and I don't think they're gonna pass it this year either you know I think that the overarching energy policies are good energy policies are good okay but that's not it though they gotta do stuff yeah yeah so they have every year they have a specific list of things that they're interested in that year and so there are the bills that do things every year okay the energy policies if you're looking at the policy they could have done better yeah I'd love to get in there and clean stuff up but it means that you know especially if it's a major change then everybody who's been expecting that to be the rules by which they are engaged in this space have to go and scramble and so you need to know what you're doing and you know to a certain extent the legislative process is messy as we all know sausage yeah yeah but it's but it's one of those things that you understand it and if you do understand where it fits and where the other pieces fit then you can better deal with it us having it on that you have to they're very important you have to deal with it you have to make sure that the people who share the committees know about energy yeah I mean I can without naming names I can tell you there's some experts in energy in the state legislature right now who don't sit on any energy committees I mean undeniable well-known experts who don't sit on energy energy committee is that a waste it would be good of course to be able to know who has expertise in what and get them all a good reason I was not involved with that so I haven't even asked about that let's move on to the next one okay so then is the governor because once the legislature says this is what shall be done expressing the will of the people then the administration takes it and yeah I guess yeah you can't leave the governor off I mean the fellow who said we're not gonna do LNG we're not gonna do next era without having any information aside from I don't know what we got it from to make these pronouncements without even consulting with anybody else on this long list right so you're not denying that it's an important part of the energy piece it could be but it isn't okay so moving on to the to the other the other parts of the administration to get into the details so the next one on the list is energy resources coordinator so that's the bed that's the that's the the head is by statute when Lewis Salavaria was there he kind of he kind of delegated a lot of that to the chief energy officer in D bed and he didn't do a whole lot himself I mean I think he intentionally didn't want to act as the chief of energy in the state I'm right about that I was not really paying attention to anything you know I have to admit that this was not intended to be a report on who did what specifically individuals this is the agency I'm just being a gadfly here yes and I know you love to respond to my bait so you know but it's very it is very often that the energy office is the entity that is tasked with doing a lot of the work and works very closely with supposed to do is it's supposed to develop policy because I haven't seen it do that so I've seen it I've seen it the legislature gave it a London economics deal on models for utilities which took a million dollars and two years and I don't think the report has actually been made public yet and I'm wondering if there's more to it than that so so you'll like this the energy resources statute HRS 196 you know law right it's actually got some really good stuff in there so findings and declarations of necessity and of course this statute was enacted in 1974 and then it was revised several times after that but it talks about the global demand for petroleum and the danger to the economy of the disruptions in the price and potential for disruptions and supply and you know the need for diversity and then it comes about the need for comprehensive strategic planning it actually says that right there both short-range and long-range planning right and then it says such planning efforts will identify the present conditions and the major problems relating to energy resources their development production and distribution it will show the projected nature of the situation and the rate of change present oh sorry the present conditions for the foreseeable future based on a projection of current trends in the developments of energy resources in Hawaii and include initiatives designed to fundamentally change how Hawaii consumes energy by accelerating the production of renewable and alternative energy increasing energy efficiency developing and adopting new technologies and ensuring the state's energy security how much has passed oh I don't know what part of this statute was enacted in what years but it's in there so this is supposed to do it this is a state energy this is the energy resources statute so the energy resources offer supposed to do that so the state energy office so there are many pieces to this and you know this is what the statute says and they have done these over the years yeah pieces of it you know I as I said I'm just talking about what's in the statute and what has been okay so did you make it to the Maui energy conference sorry no okay so one of the things that I saw on Monday at the resilience summit in Koholau Poco was really cool you'd love it being a tech kind of person it actually shows the island of Oahu and the energy resources and the sites and what the land classifications and you know you can actually change the graph show over the years what percentage from what were in the power supply improvement plan and so it's a way to show visually to the public to people new to the space what it might look like where things might be where the transmission lines are what is the topography that we're dealing with it's really cool I said hey could you bring it down got this thing on Wednesday at four but they were very busy and it was a really short use but you know that would be a really interesting discussion because it takes the different pieces of the energy puzzle the folks who are developing a way to visualize and communicate and analyze the trends and the projected future in a way that people can understand together with reports that were filed at the public utilities commission that are about this thick you know reports by the recent resources officer well no that was the power supply okay you know it took that data and it made it visually accessible to folks who might be interested in it now of course these things change right we said hey where's the where's the information from the projects that were just approved is that it's not on there yet but it is it is a way to engage the data that's been developed and the public's interest in knowing what's where and how big and how really care about that yeah to me you know I'm looking for policy I'm looking for somebody that says we should reinstate the tax credit for electric vehicles and it is a it is really too bad that we we abandoned that and we should not wonder why the number of electric vehicles being sold in the state is essentially flat so if we want to have you bought electric car yet not yet I know if I do that'll change the numbers but you know we're supposed to have a target on that one too I don't think we're reaching that target there are a million vehicles in the state and we have like was it six to seven thousand actually right now on the streets what we need is incentives we need statutory incentives somebody has to encourage us to do it or discourage us from using other types of transportation that's the way you get to a goal because if you say look buy an electric vehicle because it's fun by electric vehicle because that's gonna help you save the world people are gonna do that yeah it's just like climate change there's it's the same you've got the early adopters or there because it's new and cool exciting and fun right and then you've got the late folks who are like I'm not gonna get into one of those no matter what and then you've got the ones in the middle who are looking at what's available and how much it costs and the practicality and you know whether it works for them or not and so you've got the free parking this reminds me of measles okay you know in measles you say you say you know if you want to vaccinate your kid vaccinate them if you have some sort of objection to that on a philosophical religious or even a scientific perceived scientific ground don't vaccinate them and the result is we have a worldwide outbreak of measles because everybody feels free to make their own decision about it that doesn't work you can't deal with climate change that way and you can't deal with developing energy that way the government has got to step in and say no no we want you to do this we really do we're going to incentivize you and we have to do that and some governments are designed to do that I'm telling you it's related to climate change I would I would let people decide about climate change all by themselves we're not going to do anything and in fact in the state of Hawaii where we should be very you know aware of climate change we haven't done anything can you tell me about a single project that would deal with climate change but not a single project that would actually deal with it dime one there are a bunch of projects that are improving our energy system to produce less carbon which helps with climate change now and then the other part that's the next generation's challenge is engineering our cities deal with climate change later so kids consider civil engineering as a career mechanical engineering is good electrical is good but civil is really where it's at when you're talking about coastlines and I'm looking at that that's you know and also smarter design and you know urban planning and all the rest of them transportation is a big thing but we're getting off the subject what I was going to ask you is we talk about this bell curve right so you've got the early adopters you've got the tail end folks and then you've got all the ones in the middle now Jay you keep talking about electric vehicles and then you say I didn't buy one so on that curve where are you give me a tax credit and I will probably be encouraged to buy it but right now I'm in rather encouraged to take a short break Maria okay let's take a short break okay Aloha I'm Tim Appichella I'm here with Cynthia Sinclair and this is Trump week it's going to appear every Friday at 11 a.m. between Jay Fidel, Cynthia and myself we talked about Trump the activities and the news stories for that week as it pertains to the Trump administration we hope you tune in and watch the fun Aloha. See you then hi I'm Rusty Kamori host of Beyond the Lines on Think Tech Hawaii my show is based on my book also titled Beyond the Lines and it's about creating a superior culture of excellence leadership and finding greatness I interview guests who are successful in business sports and life which is sure to inspire you in finding your greatness join me every Monday as we go Beyond the Lines at 11 a.m. Aloha. Okay we're back we're live we're here with Maria Tomei and we're talking about all the people in the pie all the names and organizations in the landscape who are part of the energy initiative in Hawaii to clean energy initiative so let's go to the next one okay so you've got the energy resources coordinator and then you've got the energy office as well okay and then it's not the same thing you know the energy resources coordinators ahead of D bed so the director and then the energy office is the program that it does so what's the difference so it's a title thing yeah the actual it doesn't the actual D bed person actually doesn't do anything the actual statute says this is what shall be done under the energy offices is helping the D bed director do it exactly and he just signs off so the next one on the list is I want to get the plan that's required by this statue where would I go well you'd probably start off with their annual report and then you'd look at all the annual reports that talk about where they are in the various stages of planning the different pieces of it okay okay okay we've done plans okay it sounds very elusive but okay okay what should I bring it in and I print it out I don't think it works for me because I think you've got to have somebody who says we can follow me we're gonna do this now yeah nobody's saying that yeah and do you think really that that would work one person ignoring everything that's happening and saying with due regard even Xi Jinping you know has has he has oppressive institutions in China and he puts people in jail and training camps does terrible in human things to them but in the gut in the government of China he's got these committees and the committees consider issues and they make recommendations to him and likely is not he actually accepts the recommendations one of the areas of recommendation is in energy now Xi Jinping wants to get something done like moving from coal you know to LNG he likes LNG that and he's also got people who are thinking for him so it's not like you know they're seeking a consensus they're making a committee report and he's following the report so there are several pieces several people involved there's a lot of discussion involved there are decisions made true yeah when you come time for action yeah get action okay so I sense you're jealous and you want to be king of the energy that's okay that's okay I think we ought to watch how he does this I think we'll watch Singapore too I mean democracy is tumultuous and so forth so that's one of the beauties of being able to communicate not just about what is being thought here but to get information from other places on what's worked what hasn't you know what's been tried if it failed why okay what could be done differently okay and my problem and I'm sure we get to this is when all that information gets to a certain place there's a certain organization or person who says okay I got all the information I'm gonna make the buck stops here we're gonna make a decision now and it's absolutely the next day who is that but who is that person well it depends on what piece of the puzzle you're talking about right in fact I was reading the IEEE magazine I believe that had a whole thing on China's on China's electrical grid and the really super high voltage that they're developing like nerdy stuff you'll enjoy I could bring it anyway that I mean there's so but there's so many different trains are hundreds of kilometers and you know what ours is 20 miles yeah yeah you bring it to trade sorry okay so the energy data and the reports and the strategies in the plan so that's part of that's really part of the informed decision-making whoever's making the decisions about whatever whether it's investors or legislators or you as you decide that EVs are not right for you this year who is this that's whoever needs the information at the time that they're making the decisions that they are in whatever part of my I see I get this information from the energy office I gotta read it first and then it tells me that for example electric cars are good yeah and help the world they tell you you should get one and they told me I should get one even though they're not offering any particular incentive maybe they are okay and then you promise to get one give me a dollar amount anyway sorry is that now I'm supposed to read that and act on it if that is what your role is in this okay okay so the question is who else are we talking about is in the in the pie in the landscape that actually makes decisions and you know contributes to the collective okay so we know the initiative yeah okay so one of the things that the energy office does that we haven't really mentioned yet is work with the folks who want information on Hawaii's energy system so the project developers they say hey we're coming you know what permits do I need where are the good resources you know the energy map I don't know if you've seen it's a geographic information system that you can actually find out what the zoning is on the parcel of land that you're in facilitation for the exactly and so a lot of that is behind the scenes so it doesn't necessarily look like someone's made a decision for you what they've done is empowered whoever is trying to do something tell you how to do it in the right way in the right place the information to fill the facilitation exactly but you'll get credit as a facility you're necessarily which because the other people are building the projects that's on the list you know that there's there's a lot we are living in a society that has development that's done by private parties and they need a lot of information and resources and they need to communicate on the permitting side with the public with the legislators you know what are the impacts where the benefits what are the trade-offs you know where are we going as a society together and so a lot of that communication piece comes from the facilitation it's hard to get decision-making done by the public because they have really no way to do that are you gonna support or oppose a project do you believe that climate change is something to do something about do you believe that you you know can support the buildings and the public you okay as the public pretend you're just the public and not the host of the clean I think climate change is very real right so you are making a decision and if I go over and said I will do stuff about climate change I would vote for him so that's my power that's a lot of power and you are probably communicating with I'm one of what 600,000 voters in the state and what about the other ones and what made you think climate change was important and what made you aware of what the options were what the costs were what the time frame was information right right but I information or bad information but you're asking a very general question yeah and and I would have to delegate it to the people in charge and the public is the people in charge should be listening to me but the public you know if you you know you can't trust the public to make a decision that is knife-edge type of decision about where to put a power plant or how much how much mix we need in the portfolio or about whether we should allow LNG or not allow it but they decide on a daily basis what the priorities are what the priority should be how quickly things should move and they decide whether or not to get engaged in that topic because everybody's busy with whatever it is they're focused on and so don't underestimate the power of the public and the importance of it but you can't just sit there and wave your hands you know and say oh I'm listening to the public I don't underestimate the public I believe the public has huge power yeah in what way to stop project yeah that too the public has tremendous opportunity to stop project and and they and there's only somebody who would like to stop a project especially if it's in its backyard and if they have the interest in the means and the the ability to communicate their issues and recommendations yeah look at so many projects in energy have been stopped yeah no good reasons but by somebody who live nearby and if you understand why they succeeded or failed so if you if you instead of judging that it's a good or bad reason if you say I would like to understand why it succeeded or why it failed you know what are the elements that cause success and a lot of them are the trust that something is going to be done right you know developing the relationship with the community and the community very often coming forward and saying we think this is more important than that and so if they feel that you know eventing measures that well that that's what the community has to say the well that's where the develop if somebody's gonna let's go back to the project development piece let's say if somebody wants to develop something somewhere and they listen to what people are concerned about and they address those concerns they may succeed okay but if they ignore what's being said people get mad they get louder they do not have any trust that that will be done well or right or for the right reasons and so there's a huge difference yeah but anyway so back to the super ferry and you can't yeah super ferry could have been a great project for everyone in the state but there were a handful of people didn't like it and they stopped it and you know I'm still sad about that because I don't think the super ferries coming back I think we lost that I think we could lose any energy project pretty much the same way but people you know they just oppose things they're activists and they were very small minority of the people who've been reading thinking have an opinion on it so you ultimately need governmental organizations to step in and make a decision and you know listen to the ones who like it listen to the ones who don't like it and then take a position you don't have that you have cacophony you have fragmentation you have you have a lockup okay so I think in many ways we have demonstrated we are very good at that and some things actually do succeed and prosper so let's say that a project actually gets to the point where they sign an agreement you know we're talking about the big stuff you know the little stuff of course has a whole different dynamic and that's actually outside of the regulated utility space but you wanted to get to the PUC so let's talk about I do I do more than I can say however yes we're out of time no yeah no Maria we only got to item number six on the list and I don't see each other that much you know but now we do see each other we understand each other where you know each other statutes we understand you know this level of knowledge that she has and so we're not done next week Wednesday 4 o'clock you have to come back we know we're near our target all right we have to come back that's Maria Tomei and I'm Jay Fiedel and this is a great conversation that needs to continue maybe more than one week but at least next week thank you Maria thanks day it's been great everybody who watch