 Hello, good afternoon everyone, and welcome to today's webinar Express, which is Marketing and Sustainable Food Business, Mackies of Scotland with Karine Hayhow. If you're a university student watching today's webinar, you may want to sign up to CIM's Marketing Club. It'll keep you up to date with the latest trends, innovations and concepts in the marketing industry. All you need to do is take a photograph of the QR code you can see on screen and it will take you straight to the sign up page where you can fill out the form to receive regular updates. I'd now like to hand you over to Karine Hayhow, Marketing Director of Mackies of Scotland, who is our guest speaker today. Over to you, Karine. Thank you, Judith, and thank you for the invitation to speak today at lunchtime about Mackies of Scotland. I'll begin with a quick introduction about Mackies and our products, and then I'll talk about our sustainable activities. I'll cover some of detail on the commercial benefits of renewable energy alongside the marketing or branding connected to the way we make ice cream. Then we should have time for some questions at the end. So we're a family business. We have 90 staff here on the Aberdeenshire farm. Mackies have been farming here since 1912, and the current generation in charge are my brother Mack, who is the managing director, and sister Kirsten, who is the development director. The first of the next generation, my son Angus, has just joined us, shown there with the dog, in a marketing role so that we are now a fifth generation family business, making real dairy ice cream from sky to scoop here on the farm in Aberdeenshire. Sky to scoop, I'll just explain, is how we describe how Mackies make ice cream because we begin with the sky. As the wind and the sun help provide us with the power from the turbines and the solar panels to run the ice cream dairy with renewable energy. And then again from the sky, the sun and the rain help us to grow the crops to feed the cows who produce the fresh milk and cream, which we need to make real dairy ice cream for people to scoop and enjoy. So that's our sky to scoop process, and that's reflected in the way that we're vertically integrated and it's our culture to try and make everything that we can ourselves here on the farm. So that includes the fresh milk and cream from our own herds, the energy I've mentioned, and some other ingredients like honeycomb and sauces, as well as making our own packaging. Making your own packaging is quite unusual for a company of our size, and it's another example of our investment in technology, along with the more unusual at the start of the process shown there that the cows milk themselves in our voluntary access milking unit. But working in this way also does give us a competitive advantage in that we are in control and we aim to improve quality, we increase efficiency and reduce reliance on supply chains. While also adding environmental benefit. So for example, we cut carbon miles in transport by making our own packaging. So while these background elements are interesting, and I think and can show you some of what makes us unique, it's important from a marketing perspective to also focus on our products. It's the ice cream that's most important. All real dairy ice cream, but traditional shown here is our best selling flavour. It was our first and it's remained largely unchanged since we began making ice cream in 1986. Traditional is a little unusual because it's a natural creamy ice cream with no added flavouring, so not even vanilla. The family size one liter blue and cream tub has become iconic for Mackies at least here in Scotland. We recognise that this fresh creamy taste and that is the reason for traditional's enduring success. And it's one we continually emphasise in branding and marketing communications to explain and introduce what's different about Mackies and our real dairy ice cream. We're kept busy here making about 13 million litres a year. And we sell our ice cream across the UK. You'll find it in all major supermarkets and several independence. And we also export about 10% of our turnover shipping ice cream mainly to Asia. So we do have a strong record of growth over the years and Mackies real dairy ice cream is now well established as Scotland's number one. And it's number four take home tub across the UK. We're quite an unusual company to be in the mix and that the ice cream is highly competitive. Mackies are in a challenging position within this wider market because you'll see that the top five brands shown here include the big players like Walls, Parkdoor, Ben and Jerry's, who are owned by very large multinational companies like Unilever and General Mills. And also in the top five there you'll see Kelly's, which does well I think to remain perceived as sounding British and family owned like Mackies, but it is in fact owned now by one of Europe's biggest ice cream manufacturers, Fruneri. So the sale, get out the violin, but the sale and the size and scale of resources available to these companies do give them some competitive advantages. And the marketing budget for just one of these could probably and easily exceed the entire marketing budget for Mackies for a decade. So on the one hand, we have to work and punch above our weight. And then on the other hand, we're working also in the sector with the major retailers where space is limited. And there are also the rival of many smaller ice cream companies offering lovely niche local items, which might be exclusive in a particular area. But that that just creates an additional squeeze on shelf space and listings, which has to be counted by emphasis and reasons to choose the quality of products like Mackies. So the fact that traditional has been able to get out there and grow is testament to the strength consistency of the product. It would be dangerous to rely too heavily on one product. So we're always looking for the next product that we could make and hopefully one like traditional. We want to find opportunities. And of course, we like things that we can make ourselves here on the farm. We're small enough to be flexible, but yet we have the capacity to invest in change and growth. So over the past 15 years, we have diversified. So some examples like making crisps with a joint venture in 2009. And we also make chocolate bars and ice here on the farm as well. A more obvious diversification is that we opened our first ice cream parlor called Mackies 19.2 in December 2018. And it's named after the distance from the farm to the parlor in Aberdeen City Centre. Our aim there is really just to deliver a celebration of ice cream and our brand in our hometown. But it does also have some value for us as from a marketing perspective because we can test out new flavours and products and get immediate consumer feedback. Insight could be as easy as one Napoli selling quicker than another. But we can also introduce our food service customers to Mackies and have some fun with flavours and activity on social and for PR content. So we do like our comfort food up here. So here's the Scots diet on a page with iron brew pies on ice cream. But we're pleased to see Mackies on this year's Scottish brand footprint report. Where we're placed as the sixth most popular Scottish brand in Scotland and where the third fastest growing alongside tenants and tunics. And so now I've introduced a little bit Mackies and the brand. Let's have a look at some of our green credentials and the marketing surrounding that. So being green is at the heart of Mackies and our business and it's reflected as one of the three elements in our company vision. This is and has been for at least 15 years to become a global brand from the greenest company in Britain created by people having fun. So it's our background both as a family business and a farming business that makes it possible and natural for us to adopt a long term approach. And to worry about the world and it's important to look after the land for future generations. A significant part of our environmental activity is focused on our investment in renewable energy. We were early adopters back in 1983. My dad installed a small wind turbine to power the old piggery. And that making Mackies one of the first UK companies to install a grid connected wind turbine. And then since then combination of advance advancements in commercial wind technology and our growing rural business need for electricity has resulted in it making business sense to continue with this with bigger and better models. So here in 2005, we were installing our first, which is a best as the 52 850 kilowatt turbine, but that's about 40 meters tall with blades of 26 meters length. And that one was followed by two more in 2007. All things considered roughly, you could say that to install and get them up and running costs around a million pounds each. And despite the high capital cost, the long term view comes into play. We are also in a location which has plenty wind. And these three turbines generate 6.5 megawatt hours of electricity a year. That would mean that the the payback is working out at around five years and the turbine should work well for at least 25 years. These these three are directly connected from the hillside at the back of the farm here to the ice cream dairy. So we are running the business on our own renewable energy. The benefits are trifold. One, we use our own free electricity from the wind. Two, we have income revenue from the surplus electricity that we are selling and exporting to the grid. And thirdly, we are protected against fluctuations in energy market pricing, which is obviously particularly important nowadays. To 2015, we installed our fourth and final turbine. He's named Dennis after our late sales director. But at that time, we had had to install a larger grid connection. Also at some cost, but that time we only got planning permission for one final wind turbine. And so we added solar to the energy mix at the same time. At the time of installation, this 10 acre field with about 7000 solar panels was the biggest in Scotland, albeit admittedly not for long. The payback period for solar is a bit longer at about 10 or 11 years, but they are also effective. So we have a new monitoring portal for the solar panels. And that said, for example, that since January this year, we have generated almost 1.5 million kilowatt hours, which is described as having saved 961 tons of carbon dioxide emissions or the equivalent of planting. It's very precise 76,903 trees. And these sorts of figures are also helpful for our social or PR when we're talking about renewable energy. And just to sum up on one page that we have a total capacity of about five megawatts. It is mostly from this wind and solar power. But we have additional solar panels on the roof of the buyer. So that powers the milky machines I talked about. And we also have a buyer mass unit which heats the office and some housing on the farm. So with our full mix, we are generating over four and a half times the amount of power that we use. And it's on that basis that we describe ourselves as a climate positive company. We're running the business currently on about 60 to 70% with our renewable energy. And I'm going to come back to that and show you the detail. Other activities and passing on the farm also include using our slurry as fertilizer, minimal till instead of plowing for soil care, zero water waste and about 10% of the 1500 acre farm has been planted out in woodland. Here's the picture of the woodlands that includes an arboretum area. I'd just like to show you my mother planted this in her retirement. It has over 112 varieties of tree and about 150 trees or shrubs in total. But again, I think it's a reminder that doing the right thing for the environment because trees are a carbon can act as a carbon sink and bring other benefits like the creation of just a beautiful place for future generations. And it's looking particularly nice at this time of year. But back to the energy and the graph I mentioned. This one shows why having a mix of types of renewable energy works best or works well. Because you can see that the orange coloured areas that solar energy can boost the total energy being produced filling the gaps because it's obviously it's often sunny at the same time as being less windy. So I'm not sure how clear the graph will be for everyone on screen, but the blue here shows the amount of electricity that we purchase from the grid, which we would like to remove. Yellow shows the electricity we generate and use on site. And you'll see that our power requirement has been gradually increasing as we grow, not dramatically because we can work at the efficiency on that, which I'll come back to too. And green is the wind energy produced here and then sold by being exported to the grid, while orange is the solar power also sold exported to the grid. So you can see that on the graph that despite generating much more power than we need, there are still times particularly in peak summer when we're extra busy making ice cream that we still have to buy some power from the grid. That's that's just because the amount being generated doesn't always match the demand at the exact time in the ice cream dairy. So that will continue until we're able to either store the electricity we generate so that we can use on demand, or until we reduce our electricity usage. This one, we can look at it another way, it used to be my dad's favourite graph. Partly because it shows the pathway towards becoming 100% sufficient in renewable energy here, but also he saw it as a good reminder that this could be a map for Scotland or the UK as a country. We have plenty wind and it could be viewed as a template map for the country to move towards renewable energy. So I mentioned reducing power. What are we doing to reduce our energy use? We're in the final stages at the moment of our biggest ever single project. It's a £4.5 million investment in total to install a low carbon refrigeration system. The system will run using ammonia and that's a natural refrigerant gas with zero global normal potential. That's a big improvement because the old style cunnilyn used refrigeration gases have a value of almost 4,000. We will also in the system be chilling with heat using a biomass boiler to super heat and then freeze via an absorption chiller. So this combination of technology, each component is tried and tested, but it's an innovative mix and is also at this scale as well and it's a first for Scotland. We estimate the effect of the new system is going to be an 80% reduction in our energy use and carbon emissions. So the environmental credentials of the new system have led to the award of £2 million grant from the Scottish government as part of its low carbon infrastructure transition programme to help us carry out installation and create what should be an exemplar plant for refrigeration for the Scottish food and drink industry. For us, it's up and running on ammonia already, but the biomass is being installed now. But as we were already operating on 70% renewable energy, we would hope that the investment here will get us even closer to being 100% self-sufficient. And again, just in passing, it's a win-win situation. The environmental credentials are outstanding, but they are accompanied by commercial benefit. The new equipments is going to increase capacity for enable us to grow, but also the new, more efficient, faster freezing creates smaller, rounder ice crystal particles. And that means that the ice cream, and we've proven by looking under the microscope at the local university, the ice cream tastes even smoother and creamier. So sustainability, we're all aware climate action has become important for everyone and most people feel that they have a role to play. I think it's interesting here that SMEs make up 99% of UK businesses by number, but I count for around half of the country's business-related emissions. So it's crucial that we also collectively take action. The changes required are also market-driven and will be. And the BRC reported recently 79% of consumers have already changed the purchasing behaviour based on environmental impact. So we want to know more about it. We have two forms of carbon audit underway here because we need the facts. We're working with Glasgow Caledonian University with a report that's intended to find a route to net zero for other SMEs, but using making recommendations for action and using Mackies as a case study. And we have a second corporate carbon audit currently being carried out for us by an external consultancy. And once we have both, we'll be able to accurately report our total corporate footprint, identify the biggest sources of emissions and then take action to reduce them. I'm looking forward to being able to benchmark ourselves against our competitors. And I'm obviously hoping it's going to be a strong position for us to shout about and add values to customers choosing to buy our products. Sustainability is also important to our customers, the retailers. And in turn, they're all working to reduce their carbon footprints and they want suppliers with sustainable solutions to help them on that route. And this overall building pressure is, I would think, generally all going to help advance towards new, better technologies, helping to reduce overall carbon emissions, more recycling, less waste, increased energy storage capacity, and perhaps even help cows become cows, become more environmentally friendly. What about our marketing? Our product and company have been so concerned with going green for so long that it has been reflected in the marketing and some elements have happened accidentally. For example, I just realized that our one liter blue and cream tub design, while similar to the original, changed once about 10 years ago. And that's because we related to renewable energy, the central tub there featuring windmills and a countryside theme was originally created as a limited additional promotional pack in partnership with our customer. Our customer at the time, Good Energy, a renewable energy provider company, and they offered with us a year supply of renewable energy as a price. However, we like the tub design so much that we kept it. That was until this year when we undertook a brand refresh that included updating the logo and the tub design. This time the changes were made on the back of much deeper consumer research and thought, which I'll touch on later. The furthest, the tub on the right hand side is the new look tubs as they are now. Flip round to the back of that pack and you'll find a tempting introduction to Mackie's ice cream, along with our climate positive icon for the company. The design again retains a nod to the renewables by showing the wind turbines. The problem is to introduce our fresh creamy taste and natural ingredients while hinting at the environmental credentials as its ice cream made the way it should be. Later I'll show you some of the consumer research which has led to this updated identity and the continued use of sky to scoop. Alongside the ice cream brand refresh, we've brought this more modern look to our range of chocolate bars. Here features an illustration based on the view from our farm and you'll see again that the turbines are included in there. Reinforcing the underlying theme of sustainability and natural farm made ingredients. Chocolate is available here in Scotland in the Scottish supermarkets and our new website allows us to carry out e-commerce, which is for the first time for us for direct sales to consumers. It's also opened up new marketing opportunities and can allow us to trial and have greater emphasis on programmatic digital marketing and direct marketing to our friends of Mackie's email club. We want to keep understanding what our consumers want and who they are. We benefit from feedback directly from our friends of Mackie's who are now about 70,000 strong as well as having purchased data like companies like Canterworld panel and E-Pos data from Nielsen, all helpful obviously in building profiles of our consumers and prospective consumers. One question we're particularly interested in and perhaps particularly today is how much sustainability matters to them now and how much it's likely to matter to them in the future. It comes as no surprise that the most important factor when we ask our consumers on how they choose good ice cream is the taste. So 10 years ago we asked this question and we found that people want great taste natural ingredients and a smooth and creamy ice cream made with fresh milk and cream. Not all ice creams are made with dairy ingredients, but that is another story. Just look at the back of packs. But anyway, you'll see that at that time made with renewable energy factor came in at number 14. So here we are in 2019. We asked a similar question in our consumer research project conducted by Levercliff for us. And it's interesting that the results are so similar, but it's just not rocket science. The taste is always going to be the most important factor. People want creamy taste, their favourite flavours, good quality ingredients, perhaps the ease of scooping and good value. Curiously on ranking, the green factor this time described as environmentally friendly came in at number 14 again. It certainly remains a value added feel good factor, while not necessarily the predominant reason to buy ice cream. And it's definitely, but it's definitely also of growing interest. If we just look at the recent report by Cantor again, that shows a growing number of consumers who are described as eco-actives and eco-considerers, which are fairly self-explanatory on their categories. And let alone the high percentage today, the report forecasts a dramatic increase over the next decade to becoming over 60% eco-active by 2030. So there's certainly a strong appetite out there for anything green in PR. And that has seen a recent spike in the build up up to the week after next COP26. We've had lots of coverage based on our environmental activities from the installation of our solar panels, which we were looking at. And various milestones have been covered about generating electricity or the new low carbon refrigeration unit and its installation. Over the years, we've won various awards. One of the first, I remember being back in 2007 partly because they had the rather grand title of being regional winner for Europe, Middle East and Africa in the FTs inaugural environmental awards that year. And there have been lots of other sometimes quirky examples of PR activity. One of which was Nissan asking us to provide ice cream based on our sky to scoop and environmental credentials for the launch of their new electric van, which they adapted and made a zero emission ice cream van. And the prototype van caused a lot of excitement, even made an appearance on good morning TV, but sadly hasn't made it out onto the roads selling ice cream yet. Where are we now? I think whether or not sustainability sustainability becomes a real reason to buy our ice cream. It's increasingly important to people in their lives and they want us to help them make good choices. As it stands, however, I think the space is quite confused and overcrowded on this front at the moment. I read that there are over 400 accreditations available, and these are only a small selection. In addition to the huge variety of accreditation schemes and methods, the actual science behind it of determining a company's emissions and calculating the carbon footprint is quite difficult. It's time consuming, can be expensive and some areas yet to be standardised. So I think these factors make it difficult for a small business to know how best to navigate addressing its actions and conveying them to consumers. Hopefully this is something again that we're going to just see improve over the next few years, creating easier routes for clear and powerful messaging and benchmarking tools on sustainability. What are our challenges? We'll come back to making our own packaging. Plastic is certainly getting a very bad press from whether it's David Attenborough and more recently our Prime Minister, and that's helped everyone think it might all be all bad. I'm not sure, it's as clear-cut as this way, making your own packaging here and having invested in that equipment, but it is recyclable and market research tells us that's one of the most important unpack messages for consumers who are looking for ways to help make decisions to which to buy. It would be more difficult for us to change our tubs to cardboard, but they're also not strong enough really to hold a one litre or more of ice cream, and that's probably why in one respect the 500 mil and smaller tubs are made from cardboard. We hope recycling will improve and there will be other, there just will be more technological advances with more biodegradable plastic, more use of recycled plastic and other ways that we can improve the choice we can give to our consumers. Another ponderable for companies like ourselves at the moment, a big challenge related to the environment is whether dairy will see declining support as consumers move to increasingly choosing plant-based diet. It's too early to know what is really going to happen here. Younger people are more interested in plant-based options, while dairy remains at the core of our product offerings. We've always been prepared to make changes and we would consider making a non-dairy product just as long as we're sure it tastes great. Our carbon audit will show that having cows causes high emissions, but again there are some innovations on the way and UK dairy cows are some of the most climate friendly in the world. Our view of course of couldn't leave that slide without saying of continuing to eat dairy would be its great creamy taste, source of nutritional ingredients, and when found in real ice cream, it's elevated to being delicious and happy. So what next? Our business plan has a section called BeHags, which stands for Big Hairy Audacious Goals. It's just because we're always looking for something else, something new and fun challenges to take on. Our carbon audit and the new low carbon refrigeration project are our current major projects and with a commitment to continuing to invest like this, improve and grow. That's an approach which proves our intent I think to keep our minds open and we'll work onwards. Hopefully in passing become 100% self-sufficient in renewable energy as we work our way along towards our vision. I think to state the obvious that you have to act to be sustainable and then you can work on the marketing of that value added background to your product. That's enough from me. Thank you for your attention. I hope some of it was interesting. Judith is now going to come back and join us and help field any questions that you may have. We're now going to have a short Q&A session. So first question, did your research show that consumers are prepared to pay more for greener ice cream products? And just to combine with another question from the questioner, how does it compare with your competitors? Are you able to see any comparisons on price? It is an interesting one. I think it's also a tricky one to get right in market research and find out and ask what people would be willing to pay for various. You might profess to be willing to pay more to do the right thing than you do in reality. So when it comes down to people in store faced with two options. One sustainable pack for an example and the other than one research question we did came out with those being very almost identical. Again, not done by us, but I see that there is some research saying that people are willing to pay more to get the right products and make the right choices. That's going to come, isn't it, to this increasing number of the eco-actives, if you like, who are willing to make the effort to pay a little more to help move to the more environmental cost. For us, it's always a balance too, in that we're managing to produce a product that's sometimes called an affordable luxury, but a one litre version which isn't as expensive as a couple of our 500 mil luxury competitors, for example. So that was to say I'm not sure people will definitely say they will and some people will. Well, depends who's asking them. Pressure to keep the cost down. So apart from the marketing of the actual product, what activities on the farming side have Mackey's taken to decrease emissions? I was quite interested in when you described the cows as climate friendly. Maybe you could say a little bit more about the farming side rather than the wind turbines and the solar power. Well, I say climate friendly, I'm referring to Russell of Paper as well. I look for the dairy. The dairy federation have information about the UK dairy farm. And so, in some respects, their their figure, for example, was that there are 278 million dairy cows in the world. And if they were all being cared for in milk efficiently in the way in the UK dairy cow industry is then they would need 76 million of them to produce the same amount of milk. It's maybe a slightly odd figure to have, but it's all things are relative. I think that agriculture has about 3% of the total UK emissions on the livestock and the dairy because of cows. Do you have emissions? There are lots of there are lots of things happening that we can change things in their diet, which we have tried and we're looking at another company who using nitrogen can help reduce the emissions from waste from the slurry. There isn't an immediate answer to what's in some ways a natural process from the cows and their digestive systems, which does cause emissions at the moment. The farm, the other bit, the land use being a carbon sink and our minimal till is is taking care of that with the biodiversity of the carbon rich area on the top level of the soil. We've got a question now on your marketing strategy. Do you alter it depending where you're selling in different parts of the UK? So in England, say, compared to Scotland? Yes. Are we international? It's interesting because actually to touch the international side, the exporting side is relying, marketing is relying on the exact, we make the same products, tell the same story and they'd like and appreciate the same fresh creamy made on the farm, you know, consistent quality of ice cream and probably touched with that. The enviable reputation that Scotland has for green hills, nature environment and good food and drink, but coming back to England and Scotland, yes, we would love to have the same availability in England as we do in Scotland. We have probably just just over half our sales, perhaps in in England. So a much higher rate and people can find our whole selection of flavours in Scotland and so less so down south and that means that our single traditional tub, the one I'm showing you is there on its own in England. So we have to, with some of our research is based on talking to consumers in England to find out what they do or don't know about Mackies and whether we're managing to deliver, to show the difference if it's coming down to just the pack, as well as looking at our marketing campaigns and picking the profile for our customers and with the likes of the programmatic and Facebook and whatever to try and reach people and introduce them to Mackies. So it is something we work at to try and increase sales there and bring more ice cream flavours as well. And another question, during the pandemic, have you had to change your approach? And I'm sort of thinking you talked earlier about getting shelf space in the supermarkets has the shift potentially, whether a shorter term or longer term to online shopping. Does that impact on the way that you would see your sales? Yes, it works. I'm not sure whether. There were three questions in there, was it? The change in the pandemic. Over the pandemic we were very fortunate in that we were able and did manage to keep working once over the initial very uncertain time. And also for consumers after that initial period there at home and actually ice cream as a small treat were one of the things that they kept buying and wanted to buy more of. So our team managed to keep working through lockdown. So that actually increased demand for ice cream. Separately, yes, the marketing or messaging we reacted a bit, I think, to would have been 1920, 1920, where we focused on simple pleasures, because that was how people were, if they were forced to stay at home. Things from gardening to reading a book to having an ice cream or a picnic all became more important. So we changed the marketing message a bit like that. On this last year, Discover Summer, Discover Mackies and Dairy is again related to hopefully it might continue, but for more freedom for everyone I'm getting back out and about. I've forgotten what the third part of the question was. Oh, I think I think you covered it there. One question we've had is, are you selling surplus solar power that you generate and what rates are you able to get for that? Or do you manage to use it all and have to just top up? Now, as I showed you on the graph we are selling the solar and power from mostly from the fourth turbine. Marketing director, I'm going to admit, I don't know the current rate that we get for selling electricity. But if the person wants to contact me through yourselves or direct, I can find that out. Okay, thanks. And I think we've got time for one more question. Are you planning to open any more ice cream parlers anywhere else? We'll all go and visit when we're in Aberdeen obviously, but can we have some beer? Come to Aberdeen, come to Aberdeen. I like calling it our first ice cream parlor, so it's been very interesting. It's a lot of learning for ourselves to run our own food service or ice cream parlor with coffee and whatever. So if we can prove that as a concept, then yes, it would be interesting to try it again. We don't have one lined up right now. Okay, well, thanks. That's excellent, Karine. We've got some good questions there from the viewers. I don't know about anybody else, but I'm going to nip out and try and buy some Mackie's ice creams to enjoy later. So that's all we have time for our webinar today. I'd like to say thanks to Karine for her presentation and to CIM Scotland for organising the webinar. We do hope you found it interesting and worthwhile. Our next webinar express is Cantar, who we've mentioned. I'm delivering the next one, which is what is next for the food and drink sector. We've had a slight change of date there for anybody who's already booked just to make a note of the date. It will now be Friday the 12th of November and it will be at 1pm and the event has been hosted by our sector interest group for food, drink and agriculture. You'll find further details of that listed on the events page on the CIM website where you'll also be able to register for the session. So on behalf of CIM, thank you once again Karine for a really good presentation and thank you to all that joined us. We hope that you enjoy the rest of your day and we look forward to welcoming you again at our webinars in the near future. Goodbye.