 I very much want to welcome you all to this discussion session. I think all of us in this room know very well that without reducing tropical differentiation dramatically, we will not be able to reach the ambitious targets needed to achieve two-degree scenario. And then how to remove the differentiation from commodity supply chain is so important. The question ahead of us is how we can really do it. A couple of weeks ago, I and my team were in Indonesia and we took the opportunity to visit the area surrounding the Teso Nilo National Park in Sumatra. This is the landscape which has changed dramatically for the last 20 years. Say 75% of Teso Nilo National Park, the forest, was gone. It was deforested. And to make the way for the production of palm oil and paper and pulp. This is also the last remaining habitat for Sumatran elephants and tigers and holds a botanical diversity unmatched globally. Well, we Japanese do have a very old saying, seeing in believing. So I'd like to kick off this session with a short video which summarized our trip to Sumatra. And could you maybe please start the video first? So this whole biomass is sequestering carbon, is incorporating carbon from the atmosphere into the soil and into the biomass. So without that, we have larger emissions, worse global warming scenarios. There is no way of getting back diversity. We only have one shot. Whatever we do here will have consequence for the future. The risk of losing not just the lungs of the earth but valuable biodiversity, livelihood options for local communities, water sheds and the intrinsic value of these forests themselves that will never come back if we cut them all down. We have a very narrow window of opportunity here to make things right. Every day passes is one less day that we have to find a solution. I don't want to be the person that says, oh I wish I'd done something about it. We need to change now. We're here in Indonesia looking at some of the difficulties and issues that are raised when commodities and forests try and mix. Palm oil is a big deal in Indonesia and becoming a big deal in other parts of the world. Here in Thessalonica really we see the epicenter of both paper and palm oil development. Real produces more palm oil than any other place in the world. Indonesia produces more palm oil than any other country in the world. Here we try to save the last remaining big forest block in the province for the resident elephants. We had 625 years ago. Right now we are down to maybe 70 or 80. In 1985 this forest block was still 350,000 hectares of continuous forest. 30 years later today we have less than 10% of the original forest block. We need to make sure that this doesn't happen anywhere else, that the rest of the remaining forests in Sumatra are safe, that the forests in Bono and Papua and in all the other countries they are safe from this kind of destruction that is non-sustainable. So agriculture is critical to economic development, poverty alleviation, feeding the world. But we've got to figure out how to produce commodities sustainably and how to produce them in a way that doesn't destroy our natural resources. So maybe the crucial thing what you see here, the dark green is the peat and then comes the big, big carbon resources here. Up to 26 meters deep the peat and all packed with carbon. Just imagine 5 years ago this was all forest, just forest, forest, forest. We flew over a national park who has been converted to oil palm. This is the edge of the good forest that is now being encroached and parcel by parcel is being opened up. We have seen the destruction commodities are causing to some of the last big forest blocks in Indonesia. What's your number one impression when you were on the helicopter yesterday? What was your first thought? Massive, massive, massive deforestation. Oil bomb after oil bomb after oil bomb. There's so much of the forest is already gone. Actually I now realize that from this helicopter there are so many actors involved in this issue and I hope IAP can bring those different coalition of the people together. Everybody actually has his or her own interests but how we can make the platform of coalition of willing people and I really hope that IAP can provide some kind of solution to this unthinkable problem. We have to do something and we have to move quite quickly. The companies have been making some fantastic commitments. Governments have been making some pledges at the same time. We need to try and link these two together. That's the strength that the Jeff has is to be able to bring in governments, the agencies, the private sector, finance, other donors, come to table and all make a combined effort to make this work. The role of the Jeff has been tremendous. I think what they've been able to do that perhaps no other organization can do is get agencies that for various reasons have been working in silos on parallel issues to work together and strive towards a common objective. So we're hugely excited about this new approach. There's a demand for something to be done and I think the Jeff's integrated approach in commodities is a first step. We can work together. Thank you so much. I think this video clearly demonstrates to you why the issue of tropical deforestation has attracted so much of the attention these days. What's happening around Tessonilo is happening in many other tropical forests around the world and new areas such as Paraguay, Papua in West Africa are coming under pressure as we speak now. 70% of tropical deforestation is driven by conversion of land for production of global commodities. AFOLO accounts for about one quarter of global GHG emission and out of which deforestation and forest degradation are responsible for almost half. So tropical deforestation also destroys some of the world's most biodiverse habitats. So deforestation is a major issue both locally, regionally, nationally and globally. Moving forward, when the world is coming under the pressure of the global population growth, middle and class-growing, we can predict the demand for global commodity like soy, beef, palm oil could increase almost 50% in coming years. So we simply must find a way to meet this demand without having to cut down the global forest anymore. So this is why the Jeff come up to this idea, this new approach to stepping up our engagement in this very important area. We cannot simply wait for another decade to go. So we need to find a way to address these key drivers of degradation. I think this video also tells you how complex that issue is. In order for us to come up a kind of platform approach, you have to bring a quite diverse stakeholders starting from a small holder of palm oil, a production, to a commercial large-scale firm. Then manufacturers, to a brand companies, to also financiers, both domestic but international and of course retailers, then at the end of the day the consumers around the world. So how we can create that kind of platform to address this very, very urgent issue. And today I'm very happy to see a wonderful panel from each of those important stakeholders to address this issue. And my hope for this session is first to create or generate further momentum to address this issue. I also hope this panel, this session can help strengthen a broad coalition of stakeholders to address that issue. And finally, my hope is that at this session we can get a kind of guidance from the panel and from you that in what kind of approach the institution like us can take so that our resources could most usefully, effectively address this important issue. So with that I'd like to pass it to the panel. Thank you so much and please enjoy this session. Thank you Naoko. It's a great pleasure to be here and help to moderate this panel. Naoko's initial thoughts and short video that you saw highlight really the important role of forest in the climate change arena and also the meeting point between forest production, commodity, economic development and all the conservation challenges that surround this problem. We have refreshed in what we call JEP 6 which is the sixth replenishment of the global environment facility to enable us to do some innovative work on what we call integrated approaches. One of these integrated approaches deals with global commodities as a driver of deforestation and this is what we are here with you today to gather input and with the distinguished panel that will help us think through this. This integrated approach pilot is going to direct 45 million dollars of grants from the global environment facility augmented by resources from other partners to a consortium of agencies that include UNDP, the IFC, the private arm of the World Bank, the World Wildlife Fund, Conservation International, the Intermagnum Development Bank which in turn are reaching out to a broad group of partners in this effort. But there are still many questions that we need to address. First, how can we support producers to adopt improved management techniques for forests? How do we engage with national local governments to address deforestation and supply chains? And how do we involve finance institutions in providing funding that promotes sustainable practices? So this is the intent of this session. I appreciate your participation and we will start with this distinguished panel by introducing them to you. My first panelist is Maria Cristina Morales Palaria. She is the Minister of Environment from Paraguay. She is not only a minister but she knows what she's talking about because she's a specialist in biodiversity conservation. She has done lots of work both inside government and the NGO sector. She worked also with Ghiraparaguay which was a prime institution in Paraguay that I had in my past life as an NGO person also. The fortunate of having worked with them, great institution, brother Chaco and also she has been the coordinator of the National Strategy in Abizi and many other positions as curator of the Department of Ornithology and also resource management specialist. My second guest is Mr. Mark Burles who is the managing director and vice chairman of Global Investment Banking with Credit Suisse. Many of you already know Mark because he has a 40-year career in investment banking principally in partnerships with bearings in Australia and then with ING bearings of London. He's also the recipient of the Order of Australia for significant contribution to advancement of public policy. He has been a key player in the international arena particularly on the finance task force of the B20 G20 Summit and a member of the Australian B20 Leadership Group in Australia just last month. Thank you Mark for being with us. Naoko Ishi, she's a CEO and chairman of the Global Environment Facility and also my boss, I hope I can do a good job here. And finally, Thomas Lingard who is a director in global advocacy of Unilever. Unilever of course is a central player in this business. Thomas has worked in a variety of sustainability and corporate responsibility roles in his career and also in Unilever which he joined in 1999. Prior to that he was deputy director of the Environmental Policy Think Tank Green Alliance and has served on a range of advisory boards including Oxfam, the partnership initiative and the Institute for Development Studies. He also represents Unilever and the World Business Council for sustainable development. So with that introduction I would like to pose one question to all our panelists and then I'll follow up with a second question more specific to the specific sectors that we have represented here. My first question to all of you starting with you, Maria Cristina, is what needs to be done to remove deforestation arising from commodity expansion? We heard from Naoko, we saw the video. What role can your sector do? And I'm asking specifically in your role directing the Minister of Environment of Paraguay and Paraguay of course is a target of expansion of commodities and how do you see this happening? One of the greatest exporters of leaves and meat and that's why we have a great challenge. How to reduce deforestation? First of all, leaves and meat are an interesting business for the private sector and we from the government have to offer alternatives to economic tools that are equally interesting for the productive sector and to achieve that we have to work together. We have to dialogue and we need a frank dialogue a sincere dialogue to know how far we can go and what are the needs we have. In Paraguay we are working with several economic tools. We have the pay for environmental services and we are working on a network platform and we are already discussing this with the productive sector and with other sectors of the finances mainly because all the production that is being given of leaves and meat is really supported by the private financial system not by the State. So we need to get together and establish which is really the development we want for our country which is an inclusive development a development that helps to eradicate poverty but at the same time we need the protection of nature. We are going to eradicate deforestation only if we find an economic tool that can be of interest for the private sector. Thank you very much, Cristina. Marc, can you offer your perspectives from your experience in banking and financing? Sorry. Look, I'd just like to pick up because I'm an investment bank and I can go off-piste. I'd just like to pick up on the very evocative video and just say one, two comments before I do answer your question. And that is that I've come to Peru as someone from the finance sector and this morning I had a conversation with some people on the Nature Conservancy because a group of investment bankers in the late 90s, of which I was the chairman bought a great swath of rainforest in Peru which is protected and we're now looking at how we should what we should do with that. And we've been talking to the Nature Conservancy people but I was reminded on seeing that very evocative piece of footage and just paraphrasing a commentary that I think really encapsulates what everybody in this room is all about and it was an observation by the former president of the Nature Conservancy and I'm just paraphrasing this and he said that in the end our society will be defined and judged not by what we create but by what we refuse to destroy which I think just encapsulates what you're all about what GEF is about in a very simple sense. So what can I do as a financier? I suppose I have a very fundamental point to make and that is that without the finance sector this achieves very little. At the end of the day philanthropy and the government cannot really make the difference that counts. You have to engage the private sector and you have to engage the financial institutions and earlier this year Credit Suisse of which I'm a part McKinsey's and WRODF did a survey and it said that you needed to ramp up the investment in sustainable development and in deforestation by 25 to 30 times to achieve equilibrium. Now that means we need to move to 200 to 300 billion dollars per year into this space and I suppose what I could say to you is and we can talk later on about this that the money is there it's a matter of directing it identifying it quantifying it and in fact making sure that people understand that sustainable development is not risk it's opportunity and it's also profitable and to support the future. Thank you very much Mark and I'll get back to you on that particular figure and what can the Jeff capitalize on in that opportunity. Let me just skip directly to Thomas for the same question on how your sector see why is any liver in this business? So good afternoon everybody. To the question of how we get deforestation out of our commodity value chains I think I've been in a couple of sessions now this morning with Dan Napstead and I think he's got it about right when he says this isn't about deforestation this is about more food, more forests better livelihoods and lower emissions and Unilever certainly is a business which tries to look at this as a holistic sustainable development approach not in silos and I think when you ask that question what do we need to do to get all of that then I would say there are three things that stand out for me right now the first is around small holder livelihoods and that in most cases mean yields we know that 45% of Indonesian palm oil is grown by small holders and if you look at the yields from that it's way below what is possible and way below the averages so there's an immense opportunity there to increase livelihoods and yields without touching any forest to start with. Second point is around restoring degraded land to production we've already had I think a reference from Andrew Stere about the global commission on the economy and climate whose report launched in September called this out as a specific opportunity I think the stats in that report is if we took 12% of the world's degraded land and brought it back to production we would generate enough food to feed 200 million people and generate small holder incomes up by 35 to 40 billion dollars so again to see your point this is an opportunity conversation not a risk conversation and then the third thing which is something I know less about but I know a lot more after the conversations this morning is about the relationships at the local level between indigenous peoples and local government, regional government and the other actors involved in that conversation it seems to me that the governance questions there are particularly important and maybe our role in that is smaller than some of those other areas but I'd be really interested to hear if people think there are roles companies like Inleaver can play in that conversation too Thank you Thomas Naoko hearing the three panelists here what additional reflections come to your mind in terms of what the JAF is proposing to do now dealing with this very complicated problem having not a lot of resources but hearing from others that we have a role to play and particularly as a convener of governments, private sector NGOs are you optimistic that we can do this are we going to pull it off or not I'm very excited and of course I'm kind of optimistic but we have to really work together first and foremost I want to recognize that there are a lot of important partnership or coalition already ongoing so that there is a consumer goods forum there is a responsibility sustainable responsibility companies coalition and there are a lot of important initiative ongoing so in a sense this issue has been attracting a lot of partnership and we are in a sense that they're not necessarily taking over something else or we are not polarizing the space it's more like how we can strengthen those already existing partnership here and there the one thing I learned throughout my trip and also studying this issue is that in spite of those good intentions the good coalition here and there unless we really line up everybody from small holders to a large scale companies to the blend and to leaders and consumers and financier there is a lot of loophole for that the things are kind of spreading even if Indonesian manager try to do a good thing unless we involve somehow West African countries and others things will be just pushing to those countries unless we find a way to change the consumers mind not those necessarily European consumers but India and China again there is always there so how we can bring those diverse stakeholder together and how we can really find out that the weakest link of the supply chain what kind of mechanism we are at hand and this is the challenge that more like a kind of combina role to make sure all of those good initiative already existing can be really really you know that brought up to its maximum benefit and that's the area I think that the role of the Jeff could be useful to the community thank you very much Naoko I will follow with another question to the panelists and then open for your questions I would like to start again with the minister Marika Sina but all accounts Paraguay is becoming a key location for expansion of beef and soy as you already have explaining your opening remarks actually targeting one of the less remaining wilderness areas in South America which is the Chaco which Paraguay has a great extent of this dry forest and as you see the efforts let's say in neighboring Brazil to try to discipline land use and try to introduce more sustainable supply chain measures there's some leakage to neighboring countries like Paraguay so how do you see that dynamic how can we ensure that we have an integrated way of dealing with commodities that as progress has made in one place we are not exporting externalities to other places so what do you see the key challenge is where do you need to look for support to realize the vision that you stated to us at the beginning of this panel well the world is really growing and the population also and demand production of food and that always offers a demand for these commodities so we need allies the market that demands raw material that provides sustainable production is key for us for our country and also for the whole region which is productive we also need to strengthen public institutions strengthen them in the sense of improving the fiscalization of having very clear rules of production and also a sincere of our policies and our legislation we have very old legislation that we have to review and develop new according to the need of the country and the world also we see that there is an increase of demand in the world of all the sustainable production and that is an opportunity an opportunity for a country that produces in an extensive way these two commodities in the Chaco which is one of the forests of the second largest forest ecosystem and has a high amount of deforestation as much as it is marked within the national legislation so here we really have to make alliances with the companies with the financial sector with those who really need these products that already have a social and environmental commitment and they are really going to make our best allies for the fight against deforestation also improve the knowledge of other ecosystems to have a really rational dialogue as far as we can what we have to do to have statistics to have a basic line and based on that plan our policies improve all our public policies so that incentives are believed to avoid deforestation and we also need innovation in the demand that exists in the market to develop new businesses that are friendly with the climate and in that we really have a good opening of the production sector in Paraguay and also the financial sector who want to support this if there really was another opportunity other alternatives the producers would be interested to support this we need support and the alliance with key companies that already have this global commitment thank you very much Marc you have been an advocate of green bonds in the past which are the largest pool of capital in the world and you are familiar with the product for the investment community but how do you think it will help reduce deforestation in commodity production how do we scale up this opportunity firstly if I could just say my opening comment about the potential of green bonds if you look at green bonds this year it's $40 billion since I saw you in Sydney only a month ago the first two green bonds were done in Australia one by a bank to the National Australia Bank to finance 15 projects one by a property development company which is seen as being the pariah of what we have just seen on the video screen I think that I heard a statement at lunch today that what the environment needs is carrots and I come from the finance industry partial to carrots and carrots come in all forms carrots come in terms of tax incentives carrots come in terms of disincentives whereby if you invest in a certain area you get all sorts of credits we're not talking about mandatory investments we're talking about slight incentives to invest but I think if you look at green bonds as they develop what they need to do is to move out of and of course Unilever are the forerunners of this in terms of what they've done but I'm speaking holistically about the market itself if you look at green bonds at the moment they are mainly directed at infrastructure around the forests so in terms of the direct application to what we've seen and what you're talking about is actually negligible investment other than what people like Unilever have done so the big green bonds are for the infrastructure around natural capital what it needs to do you need to move the green bonds one you're going to accelerate the amount of money that's going to be raised and there will be a hundred billion dollars going to much larger numbers but what you need to do is you need to move away from infrastructure and you need to move to the position that I would see optimistically is whereby you can sell over one billion dollar green bond for a single ecosystem and there's nothing wrong with that conceptually because if through carrots in all forms you can actually accelerate the cost that is the interest cost to an amount that is sustainable within that ecosystem I think that the development of the concept of natural capital in accounting systems over the next 10, 15 years will be such that there will be a recognition in that that that is a sustainable asset that will not go away so what you're going to see is a change in how people adopt assets in their balance sheets and if you look at the world that we're at the moment the thing that I find really interesting is that the real changes in the accounting policies and transparencies of corporate accounts are coming from the developing countries not from the developed countries and I suppose why is that why is it that Kenya is the forefront of these changes well guess what their whole country relies on sustainable development and the laggards will be the more developed countries on their financial systems but at the same time when you look at Brazil which was the forerunner of the creation of transparency for natural capital in the accounts of the major corporations listed on their exchange that has grown includes Australia and the UK you've now got people like Karni the Governor of the Bank of England asking insurance companies to say well what are you providing for in 50 years time because your role is to look at the asset composition in 50 years time so what are you doing with respect to the degradation of assets through climate change and how are you addressing that so all these things are changing I think the important thing in terms of the direct question you ask is how do you mobilize the money into into what specifically we're talking about here that is a challenge because it's bipartisan at small scale finances look to large issues of money but GEF are doing this private public partnership and the money is coming in hopefully my organization is working with you on a number of those things so I think also as you get superior knowledge and intellectual property people become more attuned to becoming co-investors with you very good thank you very much Thomas Unilever was awarded an A rating for its climate performance and the CDP climate performance leadership report 2014 congratulations that's a leading effort and of course carbon is an important reason I suppose to remove the forestation from supply chains but of course forests are much more than that are there any other factors any other reasons really driving Unilever to prioritize the forestation and commodities or removing the forestation commodities you sort of touched on that when you quoted that nap stat this morning but can you elaborate a bit on that sure thank you look the thing that makes Unilever special not unique but special is that we're a consumer we've heard a little bit about the importance of linking right not just business to business but from the consumer down to the small holder farmer and those links are really important and when we sell a branded product whether that's a Lipton tea or an ice cream or a Dove shampoo that's coming with a number of promises to you the consumer that's why you pick up that product because you believe it's going to be a good product, it's going to be a quality product that's what you expected to do and increasingly there's an implicit promise in there about how that product has been made the kinds of conditions along the value chain the kinds of environmental impacts and the way that's managed so this is probably the most important reason for us because we have that huge responsibility of two billion consumers a day buying things and we know they don't want to be buying things that are associated with bad practices whether that's social or environmental or something else so that I think gives us our sense of legitimacy to act in this space it's also a risk issue I think with the way social media is now it doesn't take very much to go wrong in one part of the world somewhere in a remote part of your value chain for that to become extremely visible to consumers everywhere in the world so you can play this from a risk argument, you can play it from an obligation moral responsibility argument it comes to the same thing we've had them to try and drive this and we're committed as a business to decoupling our growth from our environmental impact it's a fairly stretching goal but when we look at where that environmental impact is only a very small amount of it about 3% is within our factories we've succeeded actually there in decoupling growth from impact but most of the impact is in either upstream and in value chains or downstream boiling water to make a cup of tea or wash your clothes with a laundry detergent and we see the biggest opportunity to reduce the value chain footprint in commodity supply chains specifically in deforestation just because of the impact through our actions that we can make not just on our own forest footprint if you will but on the whole industry and that's where we get into the conversations about how we bring whole industry groups like the consumer goods forum 400 companies 1.5 trillion dollars in revenues all now committing to zero deforestation and again working with the consumer goods forum with a number of country governments to create the tropical forest alliance so we now have this sort of multi-sectoral collaboration so we do it because we have to we do it because we can and we believe that our consumers ultimately wants us to do this fantastic thank you before we open to the to the audience to continue this debate Naoko you know what the global environment facility is you are the chairman and CEO but the global environment facility was founded in 1991 to become the financial mechanism of two conventions, biodiversity and climate change eventually grew to be the financial mechanism of several conventions why is your vision now one of dealing with integrated approaches such as commodities why are we in this business I suspect I know the answer but maybe we can give the opportunity to the audience to hear your vision why we are entering in this business with a very aggressive however cautious stance on how to deal with that it's very true that we were born to serve actually the initially two and then three climate change biodiversity and land degradation convention now we are expanding to include that chemical and mercury but now while those convention is kind of serving to one of those areas at the end of the day ultimate objective of those conventions as a whole is how to protect the global environment how to protect the integrity of the global ecosystem which that in our entire future actually quite depends on so in order for us to serve the ultimate goal of those conventions as a whole we come to understand we need to really take the integrated approach because the challenge we are facing here is basically it's fundamental coming from the fundamental fact that our human being interaction with the earth ecosystem is really pushing that carrying capacity of the earth ecosystem to its limit we all kind of know that some we are operated already beyond some of the safe planetary boundaries particularly climate change and biodiversity area so in order for us not to put ourselves on to the very difficult and risky position we have to address this issue urgently but also more integrated way that is the only way in our view that we actually that take ourselves back on track in this fight against the global environment and that's why I think this integrated approach that thinking only climate change biodiversity, the water and the forest to take this as a whole as a system that will give us more opportunity to address the fundamental driver of the environmental degradation more effectively very good in order with systemic solutions for systemic problems in a smaller planet that's very good I would like to open to the audience and would like to make this as interactive as possible we have someone with a microphone right here please we'll take a few questions and then address the panel I'm going to ask in Spanish because it's for minister good afternoon for the minister she talks about how to change these systems of production of making rural systems but since 1950 the consumption of meat has not stopped and it is known that it is one of the greatest drivers of deforestation I would like to know from the minister's point of view if there are any initiatives not only to study and to put alternatives to the offer the demand and what is your opinion and if in the future that would be viable because currently in Latin America the consumption of meat and dairy products can increase the levels of deforestation and that's my question thank you very much thank you I am Susanne from Valde from Sweden working at cultural sciences and my question actually also goes to the minister from Paraguay and it's a little bit on the line as you were asking as well but mine is more that you want to show on alternatives to this production but what are those alternatives and maybe this question can also go for the others in the panel later on we want alternatives but what do they look like in the future thank you thank you very much good afternoon thank you all for your excellent panel my name is Kerry Wozniak I'm from the University of Illinois with an institute called the ADM Institute for the Prevention of Post Harvest Loss and my question is going to the representative from Unilever but also broadly we're discussing commodities and the production side of the production somewhat in the supply chain discussion but really one third of the FAO estimates that one third of all these crops are all food that's grown each year's loss are wasted so I'm just wondering what strategies if any you're doing to promote losses in supply chains after production okay we'll take one more question and then we'll move to the panel and come back to you hi my name is Lee Gross my question is I think we've made great advances in terms of the supply of sustainable commodities particularly through the growth of the round tables and sustainability standards my question is how do we look towards the future in increasing demand for sustainable commodities among consumer nations and particularly emerging economies that maybe don't value them the way the others do so how do we continue to promote that and I know that's something of interest to the panel thank you we're going to talk about the two questions at the same time how do we treat the future of the production of commodities because certainly we can't just expand, expand, expand because the planet is small and what do we do now about consumption how to educate how to change the patterns of consumption well we have three aspects to consider what we're doing in the first place we're working on creating a compensation fund so that we can value the forest and offer an economic incentive to those owners who want to protect their forest there is a demand also of that type of sustainable production which is the protection of the forest we need to promote the practices sustainable production of the forest use it as it is and not change it what are we doing with the National Forestry Institute we're working on a network platform with this to offer those incentives we also have another tool which is environmental services which also helps to protect the forest talking about the production sector we're talking about the mechanism what is the path we're going to follow if we really want to expand our production surface or if we want to intensify production if we're interested in increasing the countries with whom we're commercializing the raw materials or if we really want to go to a premium market so there we need the support of the countries who demand this and of the companies who are demanding it so that we can have a coalition and get this when you ask the lady what are the alternatives those are the alternatives that we see at this moment maybe there could be others but this compensation fund is an opportunity that we see now and also the coordinated work with the initiatives with the demand and all together I think at the global level we have to work to change our conscience or our consumption attitude we need to work on a responsible consumption sincerely the demand of food needs the world the food we produce really goes to the people who need it we're really reducing the lack of food for the most affected and if we don't work in coordinated way if we don't know what a country has what the other offers and how we can work together I think we're going to get very far and we also need the support of the financial with appropriate credit systems of promotion of protection and we're on that path we're dialoguing we need to work with the neighboring countries that we have the same situation to exchange knowledge experiences of how they are also facing this and find a common solution for a region is food production Perfect Thomas I will address two questions to you one more specific on the question of both hardest ways if you have confronted that in your work of Unilever and also in a larger question of growing the demand side of things I hear often that it's not worth just looking at the supply side if you don't have demand the numbers are actually complaining that they're trying to increase supply but they don't find the demand it will be it's a bit counter intuitive in many places but this seems to be the case so how do we address that Sure, so Carrie is it on post-harvest loss so we're really aware of that but it highlights the point as well of trying to look at this as an integrated issue if you look at deforestation if you think about post-harvest loss if you look at small holder livelihoods you absolutely look at post-harvest loss because this is money they would have earned but they don't earn because they don't have the capacity or the technology whatever is to store and so on so this is very live there's a lot of work going on there's work going on in our supply chains I haven't got great case studies right top of mind but I can happily direct you to some it's also I can tell you on the agenda of the Global Consumer Goods Forum at the last meetings on June next year as a big topic on the demand side two sides to this the history of the consumer demand for this has been driven by northern western NGOs campaigning against kind of the big multinationals to raise consumer awareness in developed countries mostly and that's driven some change but I see a big shift in the dynamic around the conversational climate change as evidenced here but elsewhere and it's becoming a much more south-south conversation as everybody starts to realise what's at stake from not addressing climate change so I think that will affect the dynamic as Chinese consumers as Indian consumers start to understand that there are things in play which are going to have a material impact on their lives if it's not addressed so that will start to raise consumer demand in those places but I wouldn't say you even have to hold out that because that might be a slower process than is necessary and the reality is with market transformation approaches that we're taking now you can move the whole market even without all of the consumer demand the way that the consumer goods industry has made such bold commitments on the need to remove deforestation has triggered not necessarily caused in every case but a number of the major players in the commodities markets have made their own commitments people like Willmar, Gar, Cargill all now making zero deforestation commitments so we have something like 60% now of the globally traded palm oil covered by zero deforestation commitments that's something that's just happened in the last year so those guys have made those commitments not just for the palm oil they're selling to us and the members of the CGF but to everything they sell so a lot of that will now filter into Indian markets, Chinese markets where you might say there hasn't been a big consumer demand for particular labels or certifications I'm going to say that Unilever is exemplary in how they've gone about dealing with this whole issue but I'd have to say to you that those of us in the financial sector we are also consumers and you've seen in the last 10 years a remarkable shift in the attitude of the investor consumer if I could put it that way and I'm not talking about the activist involvement from say the Norwegian sort of state fund or the Scandinavian funds I'm talking about the attitude that is now prevailing among all of the wealth funds and that they are really involved and understand where their ultimate responsibility is for your retirement so they're looking out 20 or 30 years that's their ultimate responsibility and not only in Australia we've got $1.6 trillion which is a lot of money in superannuation funds but there you're finding people looking at ethical investments people are looking at how they can actually partner with GEF in terms of risk capital portfolio so you're seeing as much you've said about what Unilever has talked about with the value chain you're seeing a complete change in the attitude of people that control investable funds and where they invest those funds now the trick is financial institutions are used to things that they understand things that are large scale and also getting it down to the sorts of things we've talked about here which has been outside of my pay scale that is a difficulty I understand that but I think you're going to see a complete change in 10 years time in the attitude of people in terms of how they make investment decisions where they put their money, where it's going and the availability of that money it's a matter of accelerating that Just a follow up question on that do you see any role for impact financing to start dealing with commodity supply chains particularly dealing for example with small producers is there a trend there is there any anything happening? Certainly, I mean the large financed institutions are fairly remote from that but if I give you the example of my experience recently at the UN meeting in Nairobi if you look at what their banks are doing there's transparency and accountability with respect to what they're investing into these sorts of areas and I think the other thing that I think is just enlightening which has never received any publicity is the attitude of the Chinese institutions to their own banking system and the radical changes that are taking place with respect to transparency and accountability in terms of their investment in sustainable assets and you've got the largest bank in the world ICBC will have $100 billion US dollars in loans out to in China what are the sorts of things we've talked about so I think this is there's a huge change going on which is pretty obvious isn't it social media is the least of our problems but I'd just like to make one point about change if I may and that is that everybody in this room has a BlackBerry or an iPhone and you wouldn't actually have a BlackBerry or an iPhone or Apple 6 or an iPad but you wouldn't actually be using social media you would not be doing any of the stuff that you're doing on your iPad at the moment if there hadn't been one single change taking place in pension fund management in America in the late 1970s and that was a very simple change that allowed pension fund managers in America to invest in venture capital and if you actually talk to the Hewlett Packards of this world or the Bill Gates they will tell you that that one single change which was not a carrot it was just a freeing up of the investment manager's freedom if I could put it that way as to what he could put his money into which was venture capital as opposed to equity or debt that actually changed the dynamic of the money in venture capital had come from existing conservative people so change happens very rapidly and these consequences lead to where you are very good, change needs to happen very fast because things are going fast out there in the real world as well when it comes to forests a few additional questions before we close, we have three questions and then we have to close four questions where is the microphone how do you start good afternoon my name is Frank Hadjik I work in the natural capital sector here in Peru my question is for Mark quite exciting to hear you talking about ecosystem investment funds in billions investment into ecosystems is if you are sort of lucky these days in the range of millions or hundreds of thousands of dollars only so you are talking about a huge change potentially how are we looking at ensuring that we don't make very big mistakes in that huge change in the sense that we have to ensure that the management of ecosystems is resilient and if you are talking of scaling up very fast is there a roadmap for ensuring that change in financing maintains the resilience of ecosystems thank you Edward here thank you one of the points made in the panel was the underperformance of so many smallholder farms and the potential capacity to be able to bring up production use land more productively to do that and really get this to be business as usual then we are going to have to have the data to show that this is a good investment because actually the return is there from just getting return on the existing land rather than expanded land so I just was interested particularly from the financial sector point of view do you feel that data gathering and data to be able to drive investment decisions is something that is working at the moment because my perception is that it's probably not there it's easy to see when a premium price is paid in the market it's less visible to see how the improved performance from sustainable management systems is actually working and that should create an investment I just wondered on your perspective on that point thank you from the back Simon Hall National Wildlife Federation thanks to all the speakers for their insightful remarks very interesting I think this idea of an integrated approach is a great framework for addressing these key drivers of deforestation my question is for the gentleman from Unilever how important do you think it is to have an integrated approach to address the co-products within these broader value chains specifically with regards to cattle products including beef, leather, talo, offals and other marketable items thank you and one last Alfondo thank you to all speakers a very interesting session Raffaele Viñola from Katie I have one question relating to an idea that was mumbling in my mind since this morning in the previous session there was a discussion about Think Big and huge funding so it came to my mind the issue of let's say that all this money is available how corruption control policies are interacting with all these resources how fiscal policies are also taken into account and considering the huge resources available in fiscal heaven around the world a large share like more than 20% of the global wealth is in fiscal heavens so how this is taken into account in all this discussion and the involvement of private sector and the finance sector thank you since we only have five minutes I will ask to reflect on these questions and address them as you wish we heard about the request to explain a bit more how we really scale up investment how we crowd in the private sector the question of how do we make information become more available for decision making for example in smallholder former world the question of how we can use integrated approaches to address co-products and how we can be able to use it more effectively and finally money is important but money is just one piece of the puzzle if we don't use money money is going to be thrown at the problem and not really achieve the results or worse yet it's going to be misused and it's going to erode the credibility of the community so with that you can choose whichever piece you want to bite as we conclude this panel Mr. Minister I don't think it's going to be related to the comments that were there because the other two speakers are going to answer that but there are two points that I would like to mention first of all the capacity in finance issues sustainable finance for a green market it's very important that in our countries our economists know this central banks also at the level of the parliament that exists that knowledge what they were telling us today that it's really an opportunity that we have to explore if we don't get to know each other and if we don't get to know each other we won't be able to receive those benefits on the other hand I think that politics political decisions at a high level and in this the sector of diplomacy plays a fundamental role they asked how do we do when a country that is a consumer doesn't have these levels these environmental standards for the acquisition of products because there we really need a compromise a compromise between the countries a political decision so that our so that our businesses are sustainable Mark I'd just like to answer the two questions firstly just quickly the biggest risk you actually the question addressed the biggest risk in finance that is that in fact the green bond market blows up and of course that is what's inhibited the development of the green market and that the early days of financing sustainable development of financing of the solar system wind etc etc etc there were some horrific and well publicised failures that enabled the skeptics in the media globally to have a field day and that sets the whole system of financing this sector back you know a long time so we got over that so what we've now got with green bonds is standardisation all the global financial institutions and all the companies like Ineliva as participants so what you've got is standards so in coming to the ecosystem that you do obviously it would be transparent in terms of what that would be what you would be financing so we have two things in finance one is complete knowledge and transparency and then standardisation I think that really answers to be quick at the point thank you so Simon I don't know much about cattle and tallow personally we're more in the vegetable space but it stands to the reason that if you take an integrated approach then you need to look at everything and I think a lot of small holders will be not just sort of monoculture crop farming they'll be doing all kinds of different things exploring ways that they can change the mix of what they grow as well as byproducts and so on that's a big impact can I respond to Raphael's point as well there's something really important that we haven't talked much about but we've been quite involved in the discussions around the post-2015 development framework and that's a fascinating and rich and deep conversation it's very easy to get into a list of topics whether that's water or food or nutrition and so on but something that the business community has been pushing for very strongly is the environment piece around rule of law around good governance none of this is possible without that and so I would just thank you for that point because I think unless we put also attention on capacity of governments to do what they need to do and the political infrastructure for them to be able to do that and collect taxes from people that haven't paid them and that kind of thing then it's much more tricky Absolutely thank you I have the last word of the panel before I have to conclude this session First and foremost I really would like to thank the panelists as well as the audience to make this session so fruitful I said that one of the purpose of this session is for us to learn that in that way we can strengthen this platform so that we can have a means to address this important and significant urgent issue I think even just for the last one hour and 30 minutes I have collected so much of the knowledge, ideas expertise also identify another issues to address so I'd just like to thank you just for a few small reflections and the fact actually I learned and then reflect myself for when I think about the big hole in my mind is this consumer side at the end of the day how we could create more demand for the sustainable commodities that particularly not necessarily sophisticated developed countries market but more like an emerging market like India China and you gave me a lot of hope that we don't have to create or to transform the consumer market entirely overnight it's more like how to create a kind of movement to make it a little bit more awareness and faster or something like that and knowing that even the Chinese market the people while it becomes more like the middle income country that tend to become much more at least than a safety conscious food safety is a huge issue in China so that I think that we may be able to create more demand or awareness in that consumer market this sustainability goods so I think we would like to learn more from you in this kind of regard. Another question about this and the possibility of the small holder that the good point that they are underperforming it's actually confirmed that in my actually short trip to Indonesia that if you just compare that the small holders which are kind of left alone by themselves and actually small holder who are part of this integrated supply chain and under which they can get a much better seat I mean high quality seat and high quality good fertilizer also with training that have to put the fertilizer in that way I think that the yield already jumped significantly so I think there is a very good model already kind of confirmed with good evidence that how do you can actually increase much more yield without expanding this kind of restoration going forward so how we could learn more that kind of integrated model I think that we have a very good way forward. Thank you for mentioning and pointing out the importance of the governance and here I think there are quite enough several layers of that even in nature that the coordination the lack of coordination of the environmental ministry, the forest there is a huge issue that there is absolutely not much consensus yet so how to create the consensus among ministries but also central government and the local government is another key issue that we need to address then thank you so much Mark for this and pointing out that it's a new change with the momentum of this financial industry I hope that at the end of the day somebody is financing this commercial activities and if we no pressure introduce more kind of kind of equity principle kind of thing or that this awareness I think that will be important and Jeff on my part actually doing these things and how to aggregate in the small demand and to link up to the capital market if we could promote that kind of idea together I think we have good means to going forward so all in all I really learned so much from this session and you asked am I optimistic I said yes I'm excited but at the end of the session I become much more optimistic to identify that further way forward so thank you and I think we couldn't ask for a better panel we had tremendous complementarity we had a country that is the great and the big thank you minister this facing this problem both as a development opportunity as well as a major track to it's ecosystems that people depend upon mark with the insight of 40 years in this investment banking and the finance sector Naoko heading one of their most knowledgeable environment, and of course Thomas with Unilever, which is leading the way and hopefully it will carry with it in its wake other companies and let's hope that this work scale up. So I just wanted to close this by saying when it comes to deforestation, when it comes to commodities and trying to help clean supply chains, we are extremely happy to have been able to bring together a host of institutions that are really capable, each with its comparative advantage and we are now open for business when this theme is concerned. So thank you very much for being here with us today.