 business item 5H as well as 8B because unfortunately Chelsea is unwell and can't join us. Yep. Counselors, any other additions or changes for tonight? I would entertain a motion to amend the agenda as presented. So moved. I'll second. Thank you, Dan. Thank you, George. Any further discussion? Only that we can't see the rest of the room. You can't see the rest of the room? Can't see the room. It's being worked on. Yep. So all those in favor, please signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Those opposed, please say nay. Great. So that passed unanimously. Thank you all. And that will bring us into the public to be heard portion of tonight's meeting. So this is a time where if there are members of the public who wish to bring something to the board's attention that is not on the agenda, now is the time to do so. So for those of you using Zoom, please go ahead, raise your hand and I'll make sure to call on you when we get to that point. Anybody here in the room wish to bring something to the board's attention that's not on the agenda? Seeing no hands in the room, looking back to Zoom, no hands at Zoom. So we will come off of public to be heard and jump right into Business Item 5A, which is an interview and potential consideration of an appointment to the Tree Advisory Committee. And I believe we have Nicole here with us. Hi, Nicole. If you'd like, please come up to the microphone. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. And something that we do offer to all potential committee appointees is if you'd like to have this conversation in executive session, in particular to help make sure that anything that you say does not then impact something in your employment or other spheres of your lives, we can certainly do that if you would like. But otherwise, if you're okay doing this in an open session, we can do that too. Sure. We can proceed. Great. Well, thank you for taking the time and considering being on the Tree Advisory Committee just to get things started, if you don't mind with what your interest is and what you'd hope to accomplish and or learn about. Oh, sure. Thank you for asking me that. So I'm a new member of Essex Junction and I moved with my family in June just a couple of weeks before we all became officially a city. And that was very exciting, July 1st. I came down to the junction where the celebration was happening and just heard all these different stories of how that had been a goal and a dream for a long time and so many people worked really hard to make that happen. And so I really just wanted to jump in to my new community and serve in any capacity that might be helpful to the new city, such as it is, a new community for me. So I put on my application that I'm also an Earth Day baby from way back when, April 22nd. And I think that's always somehow had an inner calling, I guess, for me to be interested in nature and interested in our climate and interested in trees and anything that can really help preserve the beautiful place that we live. And now that I'm living in this beautiful place called Essex Junction and I saw an opening on the committee, I thought this might be a really nice fit. I'll be the first to admit. I don't have a lot of horticulture background. My kids might even tell you my thumb might be a little bit more brown than green. But this is a beautiful area and I've already learned that there's one more than one type of maple tree out there. So I'm starting to understand some of the environment of Vermont and I hope to learn a lot more in terms of what I'm hoping for in my tenure if I were chosen to be on the committee. A lot of it has to do with outreach. I would like to be a part of making sure that the community is up to date not only on what we're doing as a committee but also the things that they can be doing just as everyday citizens of the junction and as on Earth as well. So that's sort of what brought me here today. Great. Thank you, Nicole. Other counselors, other questions? Nicole, you said you're a freelance writer. I mean, if you don't mind me asking and probably not even relevant to the treatment, just what kind of writing do you do? A little bit of everything, I guess. My main gig, as you would say, is a content creator for a career coach company where we really help people to pivot, especially in this environment where you can go on to have several different careers in a lifetime depending on what chapter you're on in your life and if you're having a different interest and want to pivot. So a lot of content for that. And then also, I guess, my passion is writing about books. And so Brownnell Library right over there is one of my favorite places to be or just reading a book in general, but I often do some book review lists for some e-book websites as well. Well, I won't speak for the tree committee, they'll have to decide on the room, but I think that your skill, writing skills, your communication skills would be appreciated on that committee, just for the reason she said so. Thank you. Other counselors, other questions? I just to echo what George was saying, and in particular that the tree committee is not a committee that just sits back, talks, and that goes about the rest of their day, but is certainly very active beyond that doing things to help with planting trees, planting for trees, and helping with the Emerald Ashbor plan that had been put forth and adopted by our community. So it's certainly a very active committee, helping with our Arbor Day celebrations. I know that the tree committee has gone up to Summit Street School, participated in Arbor Day events up there as well, so it's a very active committee, and having somebody to help further that message out into the communities would be a great fit. Great. Thank you. Is there any questions you have for us? No, not at this time. I've been enjoying looking at the website, and that was one place where I thought maybe also I could help update what the tree committee's doing and get the message out there. But no, that's really all I've been very interested in getting to know the community, and I appreciate the welcoming that whether it's been from the schools here or the people in my neighborhood or the people through the city itself, it's been a really nice transition to this area, and I am really excited that we ended up where we did. Well, that's great to hear, and welcome to Essex Junction. Thank you. Well, thank you, Nicole, and we'll continue with this in just a moment if you want to stick around or if not understand it as well, I'm not sure about that. So I'm not sure who's causing the leaping. Okay. If there are no further questions, comments, we do have a motion of appointing Nicole to entertain the motion. I will move that we approve Nicole Klett to the Tree Advisory Committee for three year term. Second. Thank you, George. Thank you, Dan. Any other discussion? No, but I'd only say that, Nicole, you might want to stick around. I don't know what your plan is up. You might want to stick around just for the next item anyway, because we have a really interesting design. You might be sort of tree related. You might want to take a look at. So with no other questions, all those in favor, please signify by sending I. Aye. Aye. Those opposed, please say nay. Great. So passed unanimously. Congratulations, Nicole. Thank you for coming to the community and stepping up. And so as George had just alluded to, we will now jump into the next agenda item, which is a presentation and feedback on the one main street park design. I believe I saw that we had David Burton on the screen. Yes, I'm here. Yeah. Hi, David. Hi. Do you have the ability to share David or co-host? Let's see. No, I will need to, it says I'm disabled. I can't, I can't participate in the screen sharing. Okay. Just made your co-host. Hopefully that. Okay. All right. Well. Yeah, I've, let's see. I'll try to see if I can share my screen here. Oh yeah. So I can see. Go ahead. We can pull that out. We can pull that out. So let's see that. So, uh, last time I was in front of the city council. Um, we. Uh, work together to kind of assemble a list of considerations or, I like to call them constraints. Um, regarding this space in this, in this park. Um, And, um, you could see a list of them here that, that we really tried to, to consider it as an advisory group. Um, we got together and we, we, we went to the park space. We talked about the different options. And, um, uh, came up with a few, with a few additional considerations, things like drainage and safety and durability. Um, but I think, I think that some of the things that really came up with this space, I think that this being a town green, um, which, uh, maybe a misnomer, I like it, like to consider it more of like a town plaza, um, or a city park. Um, that, that I think is, is a better representation of, of what this space I think could be. Um, I think one of the, one of the considerations was that it could be a beacon of welcome. Uh, to, to the city. And so those things really, uh, I think are the things that I was considering the design and the possibilities. Uh, the other thing that, that we talked to that we did was we sent out a survey, uh, to the public. The community. And, um, got some really good feedback there. And one of the things that, that a couple of things that stood out to me from the feedback was this desire to use materials that were, um, In keeping with the historical, um, uh, context or of the, of the design process that was going to be presented to the public and the public in the town, including buildings and, you know, Brick, uh, some of the different granites and, uh, and, and rod iron. And that was that scored really high as far as importance with the, with those that participated in that survey. So I think, I think that was something that really drove the, the design process as well. So what I'm going to be presenting to you as a conceptual design. And conceptual designs are, are, are great for conversation. Um, and, and, um, And, um, Um, There's, there's a lot, lots of different options, lots of different ways to, to achieve this, but I think it came up with an option that's really going to check, check these boxes. Uh, and, and provide something that will feel like something that, that the town can, the city can be really, really proud of. Um, that will stand the test of time. Um, and, um, and really be an inviting place, a space that people are going to want to be in. So, um, And just one of the things that I like to say, as I, as I show the design itself is that. With a conceptual design, it's an opportunity to do kind of bolder strokes of the brush as well. Uh, so there's, there are things on here that are, are, are pretty bold and, and, um, Our, our options, you know, everything is still in that conceptual phase. And that's why I like to present it here. And now to get that feedback to say, Hey, we're on a good track. Or say, you know, um, Now's a good time to redirect if, uh, if something's not really resonating with everybody else. As far as being, um, um, Uh, In line with what the, what the city wants. So, um, So just kind of starting with a, with a plan view of the space. Um, I, uh, I wanted to provide. Multiple entrances into the space. One of the other things that scored really high on that survey. Was this protection or division from the road itself. Um, and so what I'm proposing is that we actually use a series of fences and pillars, um, To provide, uh, this space as being protected from the road. And then also using plantings. That was another thing that scored really high was that. That the community wanted more plants than just the trees. And so within this layout, we, We wanted to have additional planting areas in addition to the five street trees that we talked about wanting to, To make sure that we incorporated. And then I have this, uh, Central Kurgla space here that is a really bold statement. And I think a really great welcome to, To the city and also to the space. And because one of the things that was important as well as this, This idea of shade. I wanted to make sure that we had a comfortable place for, For the community to sit. And enjoy this, uh, this park. And so what I, What I'd like to say is that, yeah, These trees will provide that shade for, For this space and they will, But it might be 20 or 30 years before they're at the maturity to Really do that. So what I'd like to propose is that we're using some shade Sales structures. Um, this pergola structure as a way to, Uh, to provide, uh, Instant shade shaded areas for the public to be able to Enjoy while we wait for the maturity of these trees, Um, to catch up and provide additional, Additional shading and additional coverage. So, um, so within this space, I think what you'll find is that that I tried to, Um, I tried to keep in context with the historical elements of, Of the town of the city of Essex Junction, But then add some elements that were a little bit more contemporary. Um, um, with, with these hexagon shapes, And I'll show this in 3d, Which I think will help you to be able to visualize a little better. But with the hexagon shapes and multi-level sitting area, It's a little bit more, um, a little different, A little bit more modern of a look, Even using some steel or Corten steel planters, Um, provides a, um, uh, you know, Something that I think leads us into the, Into the future of, of, of the city. And I like the idea of hexagons because, Uh, one of the, the, the considerations was the context of Vermont. And, you know, with, um, with bees and, And just the natural elements of, Of the community that bees represent as they work together for, For a common goal. I think, um, That really plays well with this, With this hexagonal shape that you'll see in the design too. So, um, this is, This is a perspective view looking from Main Street into the space. Uh, and so you can see we've got this pergola structure and the Pergola design. Uh, this was something that Rick Hamlin, Uh, had a really great contribution on and really wanting this to Have some, uh, feel of an, An older world, um, A train station kind of, uh, dynamic and style. And so I think with these, this steel, With the steel arches, uh, that, that really helped to achieve that. And then you can see in here, this area here, I think really provides a more casual lounging and sitting area. Um, with, with the incorporation of, Of some planters for, for color and for, uh, for, For pollinators and all of that good stuff as well. Um, and you'll see the style wise, We've got the brick columns with the rod iron fencing, Uh, to, to really pull in that material, Those materials from the, um, uh, from the community and from the other Architectural elements that, that are, Are so much a part of what S extension represents. And obviously the clay, uh, I have clay pavers as an option for the, For the paving surface. And you know, with jewelry, uh, Brickyard at being a big, a big, um, consideration there. So this is, this is a good representation of kind of like, What this could look like when it first gets installed. You know, the trees would probably be two and a half, Maybe three inch caliper trees, Decent sized trees are going in originally, But then as they mature, um, we would be getting a lot, A lot more coverage, uh, to eventually not even need some of these other Shade structures that would be kind of more of a temporary, Um, solution for, for shade that would be overtaken by the more mature trees Down, down the road. Um, so that, that's the main street, um, view. This is the view from, from Firebird Cafe. Um, and one of the considerations that, that, That was important was that we, We recognized that long term, That property could be developed right up to that property line. So we wanted to make sure that we were considering that, Um, in the design. And this right here, uh, shows that the elevation. Um, Against that, that Firebird property would be raised a bit so that Water can shed and pitch, uh, toward the street and toward the, Uh, toward the, uh, storm water drain. And that would result in having, uh, two steps approximately that, I would, that would, That still needs to be developed a little bit more, But a couple of steps up through into this space. Um, so we're going to, we're going to, We're going to look into the part itself. Um, again, this, this is a Maple Street perspective. So looking from Maple Street into the space. Um, you can see there's, there's. Easily comfortably I calculated you know, You could have 50 to 60 people in this space. Just lounging and eating lunches and enjoying the space. Without any additional seating or, you know, need for, um uh you know uh more seating than than what this design would provide. And so this is the perspective with with incorporating a section here that would really be for uh for a bike bike rack and um and and still be able to provide a one of the street trees that would provide shade in this space as it as it matured. But then again you can see these these structures with their multiple levels make for a really kind of dynamic space that people can use you know whether you're either lounging or kids are climbing on stepping on up and down. I think they would make for a really um you know something a little different something you know a space that would be comfortable to sit in but but uh stray a little bit from just a flat surface so I'd give some texture give some some three dimension to the um to the the space. So the last thing I wanted to show was I was able to do a kind of a photoshop 3d overlay here just to kind of to help visualize kind of this is this is our you know Google Earth street view of the of the current space now and um this is kind of what we would be looking at as an overlay you know for what that what the space could look like um and um you know and and so I think that's a good good representation of kind of what what we're what we're suggesting what we're recommending. That's that's what I have for our presentation so if there's any um questions or feedback or next steps. David thank you for that um Bridget I know you were heavily involved in this as well Rick Hamlin thank you as well uh honestly I'm blown away yep by what I'm seeing here when I saw it in the packet I was very impressed and quite thrilled it at the result I have no critical feedback everything I think is fantastic I love in particular the the pergola design as well as the the the history of maintaining a brick state there or having the the brick base as if you will I think it's wonderful um David can I ask the when you say the red clay tiles are those are are those large tiles that have been scored to look like bricks or are those actually clay bricks or either it could be either one what right I think I think my my preference would be that they were clay bricks um I there you know there uh there are lots of uses of of bricks and public spaces like this especially around the you know local campuses Champlain College and and UVM campuses uh and I you know so I I I'd like to see this as brick um there is an added um uh cost associated with that as well as um some potential some potential considerations from a maintenance standpoint but but yeah so my my preference would be would be clay brick I I just think it's terrific I think you just put it out of the park I mean I think it's just terrific um I I think it's a you you know it you you turned uh silver into gold so I I think it's terrific and I I would go for the brick too I I just wasn't sure what that what the complexity of that is in terms of dealing with what's over there now I know we can't tear up the asphalt so we have to put something on top of it I just didn't know how maybe that's something that can be done and yeah I think if I could just that reminded me of two two things that I want to um bring up one is that we we did do the soil testing for the space and um as Miles Waite put it it came back favorable so so there were a couple of spots that were considered contaminated to the point that they would need to have special disposal uh you know needs but the majority of the space was not contaminated to that degree so so the the some of the initial concerns with how bad the the soils were going to be has been decreased and so so that does a couple of things that makes us have a little bit more flexibility with the depth of our dig as well as potentially keeps us from having that additional expense which which does get to my second point which is the the considerations around budget and I I as a designer am very sensitive to the fact that you know the designer always always over you know comes back with a with a design that's over budget and and I hate that and I try not to do that and the way that I try not to do that is by by providing options um but in our last meeting we you know we you you did express hey if you got a really cool idea you know show it show us it and we'll we'll consider it and you know and if we need to consider budgetary um um you know uh considerations we'll do that so that's paraphrasing but uh so so some of these elements you know by by by incorporating these these these brick columns by incorporating this rod iron that you know initially I wasn't really thinking was going to be a part of this design as well as this pergola structure which is which is a you know it's a pretty um large portion of of the design I think we I think the the the 200 000 budget I think the way the way that you're seeing it now um we would we would be surpassing that yeah um so I don't have any hard numbers and that was kind of the next step of this was I wanted to say hey this is what I've got this is this is the big idea this is what this you know our advisory group came up with which I do want to say I got great feedback from from the advisory group and they really did help me to refine this to what you're seeing right here so with the input of that group I it was just really really dynamic and helpful to to achieve what you're seeing so I just want to make sure I'm giving them the credit that is do them um um so but but so there there is there are options um but I think this I the the track I was going on was want to make sure we're on track with with from a design standpoint and then we can really start to go into a deeper kind of exploratory budget budget phase so we can say hey great we love this what are these elements going to cost and um um you know and how is that going to relate to what we what we have to spend and what we're willing to spend um so in in my just kind of initial experience you know kind of rolling numbers around I think you know this this could be over 300 000 um um you know with with with some of the elements as you see it now but there's there's always options so um but I just I want to kind of rip the band aid you know early and and and get your feedback at this stage um so that if you know if we need to kind of tweak things now's the time to do it I see just go ahead no I just curious Dave um I saw the recycle bins trash cans curious about uh lighting if there's any consideration for lighting either on the pergola or somewhere near these brick pillars or what yeah yeah so so my my typical process is that I try to get through the conceptual phase before I put a lot of effort toward lighting um just because so much can change in the infrastructure that really impacts the lighting um so yeah there's great opportunity for lighting in this space I mean and even um uh uh Rick uh mentioned from the from the city you know being able to do holiday lights and stringing the pergola you know some of those kinds of things even seasonal um seasonal interest lights I think there's a really great opportunity within this space but yes that yeah there's there's I think there's a lot of opportunity for lighting this space up um at night in a really attractive way and in a functional way to be able to have this space be usable you know into the into the um you know the darker the darker months that we're in now um so for sure thank you for that go ahead Raj no I guess I'm I also love this um I was really excited excuse me to see it in the packet um so thanks I've I've been struggling with what I change anything I can't think of a thing I think it's fantastic um that said so so with the with the financial concern you're having um I'm curious from the board when you know we've got budget season coming up so we're going to have some of these conversations when do we need to know this what's the next what's the timeline like here um excuse me to keep this going um good yeah I I think I think with with the understanding that that we like this approach and like this design I think really like I said the next phase is really is some exploratory I'd like to send this out to a couple of um uh of contractors that I've already been kind of in communication with to to kind of get some just some ballpark numbers um and uh and it would be helpful if you know with me saying hey you know this this structure you know this this total package is going to exceed this budget by how how much I you know um I don't know for sure like I said I I've just I've kind of tossed from my experience tossed some numbers at at it you know which is you know just enough to be dangerous um and and um so if if if the if the city council or you know if if you you would would have an idea of saying look David you're you're going to need to stick to this 200 you know that would that would greatly impact what I would do before I sent it out to have folks um uh price it up um the other the other option would be hey we love it the way that it is let's price it the way that it is see where it comes back and then start to subtract if we need to in certain areas that's another way of doing it but but I don't want to I don't want to you know spin wheels or or waste waste time if it's just like hey this is you know sorry this is just more than we're we're willing to spend on the space which is fine and understandable it's just kind of those those those next steps in the process so to to be direct to your point David I would say personally I'm fine with moving forward with the design that you have with the conversation coming back to you this is what that price would be for this design and then how or what would some options be to reduce that cost and what the impact would be to the design so I that latter option that you offered would be my preference counselors would you agree disagree I I agree but I would say I put two things in there I I I love the design I would hate to see you know we're building this for decades to come I I think that short changing it I would hate to see that I think the design is great um the other thing I I would point out though um it doesn't you know we we could put it into the upcoming budget but really if we're talking about the economic development fund which should probably be up around 800,000 now you didn't hear that David but um it's you know I I don't think it's something unless we're thinking of putting it into the general fund budget it seems like we might have resources from outside the general fund budget so it's really not we don't really have to know in terms of coordinating it with our upcoming budget discussion um maybe Regina has a different thought about that but um I don't know I I that's my thought I agree with anyway bottom line as I agree I would like to see what the cost comes at back the way it's designed now and then let us figure out um the financial piece from that point I'm comfortable with that great uh Bridget I think I saw that you had yeah I just want to say this is a great example of a collaborative process short term that where the um EJRP uh Public Works um a couple of community members one cranky me and uh work together to uh to to make this happen we met four times and David ran things by us and he had a great design and we all went this is fantastic it really really is I have a question for David and that is I don't see or maybe it's just my old eyes but um the hexagons I mean I see them but I wonder if the council people saw them as clearly as they are in there do you have them they're in our design really well yeah yeah we've got them I think that that that's a key key piece of it and I also can't see one of my bugaboos was was uh points on the on the um I'm sure you've taken care of it David um on the fence and I just don't want spikes on that fence I want there to be maybe something around in the fence and so um so that it doesn't invite injury or whatever we could foresee as far as a yeah as a city park so but overall I think the design is amazing and I really I really commend David for for doing this and I commend the committee I mean professionals and the late people alike work together to make this happen it's an example I think maybe for the future how these kinds of things can get done yeah I really like that that's awesome great uh and in particular I really do appreciate the the pergola structure uh clearly the biggest thing that we had heard was shade someplace where people can congregate be outside in the hot summer months and get some reprieve from the sun uh so that's that's certainly something I'd like to to see continue to stay in the design um the other side of this this uh the financial question one of the things that I I've heard from some community members is the desire to potentially purchase some bricks or to purchase some capability to have their name etched in the bricks and I think that that could be another way to bring in some potential revenue for this so if there were a way that someone could purchase a brick for say a hundred bucks so that that way they could have their name etched into it would be a nice way to also allow them to to be a part of this process uh for however long a brick would last yep so counselors is there anything else can I ask Regina what do you think I think the design is really fantastic I just uh my only hesitation on the funding side of things is we do have to figure out how to paper match for the Amtrak grant as well yes and so that is a consideration yeah that's what I was considering when I was looking at the economic development fund and talking about budget season yep I think that it's a it's absolutely part of a conversation we'll need to have how all the funding pieces will tie together so that we make sure that we do what we need to do great David anything else you need from us no I that's that's great no thank you everybody um I really appreciate it great thank you thank you and so then next on our agenda we have the all hazards mitigation plan the fun short document uh discussion consideration of the plan so chief hoag thank you for being here I've had to read that many times happy to say that you maybe only had to read it once in chunks in chunks in over a period of time absolutely um do you want me to give a little please yeah oh yeah so um this plan has is a plan it's uh been around in the county for I don't know this might be the fourth or fifth iteration that we've had of it um and um it's quite the process I'm putting it together it's a pretty huge document of county level and then also each annex for every municipality is pretty large as well um I think you can tell from this annex that it was previously done more collectively between the town and the city and so there's a lot that um is still kind of uh a little muddy in there between the two and so next time around we'll definitely want to have a clearer um city side list of things to do but big picture we put these plans in place because we do have these hazards um and we have to be thinking about how to mitigate and prepare for those um and I think this land does a good job of describing what those are um and you both I think on the town side and the city side have been moving towards these mitigation things for quite some time and will continue to do so um upgrading culvert sizes for larger storms is a good example um so there are some things like if we could rewrite it to get some things cleared up that would be fantastic but there's a deadline of October 31st for the annex approvals to get into the full county plan to get its approvals necessary at the state um and uh changing anything in that structure really kind of creates havoc the other thing I will say is really an important part of getting this plan in place is that if there is a um declared FEMA declared disaster um and we have any uh damage that we need to get funding for with this plan in place we get a better match uh rate with the state than if we were didn't have this plan in place that sums it up yes so that sums up the 400 pages I actually think Regina knows knows more about this plan than this is the first time that I participated in it and it seems like she knows a lot more about the process of putting this together it was an extensive process um it started back in I want to say February um with an outside company that was hired to come in and do most of the work on it and then in cooperation with us uh with emergency management and for the local level that's where that's where it got to where it is now and obviously we would we'd like to go back and make some changes that were specific to the city most of the of the these parts were written prior to July 1st um so we really didn't have the ability to be able to go back and change it and and we were working with the assumption that the next one definitely would have have that separation to it so yeah and before our context any of those errors they don't necessarily commit us to doing anything they don't harm us in any way it's just it's wrong correct there's yeah there's there's some information in there such as I think you know the purchase of a I think there's a purchase of a ladder truck which I'm sure the fire chief would enjoy here and here in the city a second one but um you know it's things like that that that don't commit to the city to anything right and uh like the mentioning other municipalities and some things that pertain to municipalities that are not within the city of sx junction it doesn't require us to address those things and conversely my understanding is some city things are in other municipalities uh annexes as well which doesn't commit them to doing any for us yes just again is one of those um I I've been talking with Regina my understanding is feedback has been given in terms of how this process has gone uh to the the people who were creating it and yes they can get the convolutedness that it is yeah yeah but just it is what it is and we all just need to kind of accept it and move on so that if we have an event we can get the best match possible correct and in in addition to this we also have our own local emergency management plan which is much more detailed than this and includes most of the information that that is in here but it's in addition um it's more specific to just our areas that we have so and we complete that every year as well so counselors are there any questions no I'd make the observation it's it was a huge amount of work but it's it's necessary work it's it's really essential work it's good work but it's uh it's a hard work of local government so it's much it is appreciated on our behalf on behalf my only question is in the future um could the process be changed so that that way it's not wrong I'm in or who's well I think I think the only thing with the process of this one was that there was some unfamiliarity on the part of the folks that were doing the actual plan in addition there was the transition that was going on during this it was a transition away from the the course of a merger down to a separation so in the future there would be yeah that that shouldn't be an issue great great if there are no other questions I would entertain the motion to adopt the all hazard mitigation plan um I recommend that the city adopt the all hazard mitigation plan in accordance with the account certificate adoption second thank you George thank you Dan any further discussion hearing none all those in favor please signify by saying aye aye aye as opposed please say nay great so that passed unanimously thank you then uh and sorry trying to get back to my agenda here next up we have the conversation with police chief Ron Hogue and uh before we continue this conversation just for those on zoomland sorry that the camera is not working my understanding is the only way that it can be resolved is if the meeting is restarted is if the meeting ends and then restarts which would require everybody in the meeting to leave rejoin and so sorry but we're just going to have to not have all of our beautiful faces being shown just pretend if you will but we're all here so hi again chief Hogue hello thanks for thanks for having me and taking time in this in your busy schedule which I know it is to come and listen about the police department so I have a I have a bit of a a power point that I put together just to keep me on task um and we'll we'll start that and just go through this is this shouldn't take too long to do this I don't want to take up too much of your time but so uh so this started uh this summer when Brad Luck asked if I could come come in and share some information about the police department how we've been doing what we're doing that kind of thing and then I understand I think the way it's going now is I think you're hearing from all your department heads so that's that's perfect that it fits right in there I just wanted to to share a little bit with you folks about what we've been doing as a police department since I've been chief the last couple of years how we've compared to the last five years as far as crime data uh and how we're looking as far as staffing and and that type of thing uh so next slide please so and another one please all right so as most of you know but there may be some folks that are that are listening that might not know since 1980 the best police department's provided you know 24 7365 coverage to both the town and the village of Essex Junction and now the city and we originally as you know started out as the village police department and then we're transferred over to the town around that same time so that's how we we came about so right now we're providing 24 7365 dispatching services as well for Essex fire department the Essex Junction fire department the Essex Rescue Westford fire department town public works city public works and the Wilson police department which is part time for us right now we agreed to do that back in July as a result of dispatching issues that were going on and I think I had sent a previous memo in regards to that keeping you guys informed so we uh we currently provide patrol and staff and staff investigative division as well our investigators handle everything from frauds to homicides we have five investigators now in our in our bureau criminal investigation unit and then we have currently 16 I think I'm counting in my head 16 people assigned to patrol that includes four supervisors which we added an additional sergeant last year so we after our restructuring when I took over in 2020 we went from having lieutenants as our as our on-duty supervisors to sergeants and which is the traditional model for most police departments and other agencies so we currently have a supervisor on now until four in the morning whereas before we only had someone on until around midnight most nights so that provides us especially with the younger folks that we have in our department now it provides us with better supervision and and more resources for those folks who haven't been on as long as some of people have had in years past where folks had been around for for a long time so we also you know as the slide says we also still have support services we have a records department of course our administration we have rick gary former chief rick gary who was working for a still part time he came back after he retired and he's currently our technology and special projects person and literally he does virtually everything um he is a very happy man doing exactly what he loves to do which is take care of our building take care of our it issues and and anything other special project that i ask him to take care of he uh he does that and i i can't say how much it's it's been great having him come back and then finally emergency management so right so currently right now we are authorized 31 full-time sworn officers and that was 32 up until this year with this budget we were authorized to convert one of those positions to our community affairs liaison which we just recently hired um anthony jackson miller i'm not sure if you've met him yet but he's making his way around trying to meet everyone and he is fitting in well to the department he's been there what two weeks now and he's doing a very good job for us so currently we have we're authorized 31 we are currently at 26 and i consider myself lucky when i listen to other chiefs and sheriffs around the state when they talk about staffing that we're only five short and i say only i wish that we were at full staff because that would give us the full capacity to be able to do all of the things that we want to be able to do to provide proactive coverage and that type of thing all of our shifts are currently covered however right now we are filling two people are nighttime positions with overtime because we have one person who's assigned to traffic and we did that we went back to having a traffic a dedicated traffic person because that is where our citizens are asking us to to to concentrate our efforts so that's where we're at right now with with with staffing i would love to say that we have lots of applications coming in we do not we currently have two people in the vermont police academy right now so hopefully when they get out that will bring us up to the full 26 that were that we currently have so with that with saying that you know i learned the other day that we had 60 applications in all of 2022 so far we've had 60 applications i mean in the past we've had you know hundreds for or for our openings that we have and and now it's just not happening we're just not seeing the applications and many of those applications that we do get uh folks don't call us back you'd follow up with them and they don't call you or or something like that it's many of them are generated by indeed or however the you know the systems work they get generated automatically so so we're having we're having the same issues that everybody else is with finding with finding folks qualified people and people that we really want to bring into the department and we are still being very very selective as to who we bring into the department so i would rather have us be where we're at than to hire someone that is not going to fit in to the values that we set so that's where we're standing with that and then yeah so we have records clerks we have four full-time dispatchers and four part-time dispatchers we currently have four part-time officers who are filling in shifts for us they also come in extra we have one working tonight who's who fills in an extra shift and comes in to provide extra coverage so this is just the basic structure of the department that we have now and like i said it was restructured when i came in in 2020 and in the past we had had captains as the second in charge for the police department i went back to lieutenants and and left the captains position on the shelf but the lieutenant functions as a current as a captain used to here as a second in charge and under under their patrol and our district liaison officer and then our then our investigators on the right there so i just threw these in here because there we you know we have in the past had some questions about why why we have so many officers and and why do we are at the staffing level that we're at so these are just some stats from vt digger back in 2020 when they were doing study of various police departments in in vermont and the national average is currently 2.4 per thousand residents vermont as the average is 3.5 and we're currently at 1.39 so we've been we've been at that level for a long time even though we added an additional two i think it was in 2017 before i came here i believe there was a there were two additional officers that were added um and when i became chief i i had in my interview with with evan uh teach at that time i told him that i was not going to advocate for more officers at this point um because we're we're currently functioning where we should be and we're doing we're doing well with what we should we should have um at you know at some point in the future maybe that will change but right now we're doing we're maintaining what we can do and we're we seem to be doing okay with that so so just uh just a comparison of costs and this is another question that comes up and certainly not from the boards um and i don't want that to come across from in that way uh that the boards have been nothing but supported for the police department uh both of them so i just wanted you know folks to understand that you know we're authorized 31 officers and our per capita is at 1.39 compared to others in our in the county and our closest probably would be south burlington would be comparable to us in population they're currently at 39 officers um and oh by the way the last i heard they had 10 vacancies so they're they're doing worse than than we are um and they're at 1.92 officers per capita and they currently pay about $260 per officer per resident or the amount spent per resident and then uh 225 for the escs police department so we're still trying to be very fiscally responsible with with what we do so uh just just in regards to our training and and this is something that we also have tried to to make more prominent to folks is that um you know we're required each officer is required to have 30 hours of training every year most of our officers average about 180 to 200 hours a year for training which if i could do it and still be able to fill shifts and still be fiscally responsible i would allow allow them to do a thousand hours of training a year but we still have primary duties of filling shifts and answering calls for service so we don't we're not allowed to be able to get to that level but you know we spent over 3,300 hours of training in 2021 um and a lot of that was in use of force and firearms firearms we qualify i shouldn't say qualify we train in firearms at least six times a year we offer training for to the officers um which is much more than many departments as i see Dan nod in his head that's more than many departments do many departments will only do one time a year but because that is a high liability area we want to focus on that use of force we also do that twice a year domestic violence de-escalation we just we uh we just did a refresher uh last thursday and friday for our officers in de-escalation um we currently have an instructor uh john rutenberg uh who uh went to training about three years ago before george floyd um and it was very timely that he had done that um prior to that um so he's been doing that for us since then and he did a he did a refresher for us the other day and then of course we're mandated fair and impartial policing by by the state um and then we train also in investigations and there's a lot of other different topics our canine officer who's pictured there um he does two days of training a month with his dog and it seems like he's constantly training something doing something with the dog it's evident by her by her skill and then finally first aid and of course mental health crisis so we uh we would love to have more training in mental health crisis response that is something that we respond to constantly almost every day we're we're going to some type of call that that involves someone in in mental crisis so we would love to have more training than that we are trying to do that we're getting getting more in that through the state and we're relying on how our mental health is well to to provide that for us so so this is a this is something i wanted to bring bring to the forefront and this was something that we did uh last year or actually earlier this year um so we were the first department in vermont to purchase a virtual reality training simulator and we looked after after looking at a couple of different models uh we we settled on the apex uh officer version and what this basically allows us to do is immerse an officer in a virtual reality world where we can change scenarios we can uh interact with the officer via avatar the instructor will will instruct will actually interact with the officer answer questions from the officer um and various you know in various ways we can change the scenario virtually with a click of a click of a mouse or whatever and so that the the officer gets a varied experience um so i just have this short video that that shows kind of a demonstration of it yeah it's going to work audio didn't work okay and that's okay if i did i'll just go by it okay i don't have a problem because i don't have the audio on audio back on but then we're gonna have all kinds of feedback too hard to work with the one screen we might have to just follow up yeah yeah it's fine yeah it's fine so just you can just leave that video playing there in the background if you want to and i'll just i'll just explain a little bit about it um so so basically what you're looking at there the officer wears a backpack that basically has the actual unit and and the batteries in it and then it connects to a vr unit that actually goes over the ice and and covers the years so that way they're completely immersed i've i've done it once so far and and it is very realistic it makes your heart pump it it gets you going just like you were in a real scenario the good thing about this is uh and and it's different from the old systems that we used to have when i first came on that were very very kind of sloppy sloppily made and the technology just wasn't there this is very fluid where the where the scene actually moves as the as the instructor wants it to and in addition this isn't just a use of force training simulator so the old systems that we first started with you probably remember those is like every scenario you went through you knew when you went through it that you were going to be using force on something right and and you were you were planning on that this is a training simulator and what we're doing now is we've trained the way that we're we've changed the way that we're using this system in that an officer is trained not to use force every single time and in fact we're only doing it the officer in as they're going through scenarios are only using force about 10 to 15 percent of the time and they're actually being able to resolve those scenarios without using force we're training them to use the de-escalation skills that they've been that they've been learning instead of simply just going and teaching them how to use force so we're pretty happy with it so far as I said we just started getting our officers into the simulator and so far it's been excellent many of the scenarios can be if you put an officer say into a high school scenario you can actually put that officer into up to a hundred different locations to start that scenario so nothing is ever the same as they go through so it was a it was a significant purchase for us to be able to do that we were fortunate to be able to have the funds to do it and I think it's going to be something that we're really going to rely on and the officers will really get very very well trained from it so so anyway yeah so the so we want to I want to talk a little bit about Essex best in our and our work with them since since 2020 so they were formed in 2020 as part of a community effort to around governance in a specific focus on on law enforcement and we're still meeting with that group we still have about 10 or 12 members that are left in in that group and we've been meeting with them monthly for the last I believe it's the last five or six months where now we are moving forward with a a study actually we're studying how to best form an advisory group a formal advisory group for the police department garage has been has been there for those meetings and he's he's been great with being part of that so but some of the recommendations that they that they have come up with in the last two years I just wanted to to point out some of the things that we've done as as a result of those and you know so we have a new mission statement and core values we've posted our policies online we're trying to be more transparent with the public so that they can see what our policies are we're focusing our efforts to engage with the community through social media and other community events one of the three goals that I had for the department when I became chief was to re-engage us into the community it it had become less and less over the years I can remember back in the 90s when I was here we had actually two people who were assigned they were police officers assigned to do nothing but community engagement and over the years that kind of fell out fell to the side and I really wanted to bring that back that was part of why we now have Anthony and we've been doing that through things like national night out we've been hosting coffee with a cop at different places and then finally I know I've been saying this we are going to have a citizens police academy we're we're developing it I have one citizen in particular who's been asking and asking asking to go and I keep telling her we will definitely get you into that we are going to do it I hope that it's going to be this fall but it might be closer to January so so then we transitioned our SRO to a district liaison officer working with the school system they asked us to do that they came to us and asked if we would be willing to transition from a traditional SRO model to a district liaison and now we've created that position where we are now that that model that we've created is being used in several other schools around the state so that's worked out very well for us we we really we would love to have more contact with kids and that's one of the goals that we would have for that position now is to get us back to where we have more contact with with kids positive contacts with kids so we are trying to to advocate and provide increased funding for community outreach in the community justice center in particular community outreach we rely on those folks constantly on my way over here tonight I heard one of our officers asking if there was a community outreach person on and unfortunately they're only part-time they they work every day but they're not full 24 hours we would love to get to that point but for right now they are providing a great service to us I can't speak highly enough of the folks at Howard Mental Health and and the folks that are running that program for them they do a fantastic job on a daily basis and certainly they are huge partners of ours and then finally we created implement training for staff on racially responsive policing so this is a new training program that I've been working with Tabitha Moore on and she's been consulting with us for the last two years as as doing more it to be to be more of the 21st century police department and this is part of it this is also as a result of the incident that we had last summer where we recognized that there were some issues that we had where our police officers were could have been better trained in the areas of racial harm and that type of thing that people might have experienced in the past so this training that we've been trying to develop for the last year and we're in fact going to be putting it out next week for our supervisors for the first time will be basically teaching officers to be more culturally competent and to be more racially responsive or at least responsive to racial harm that's been done in the past and how to better interact with citizens when that when that's a problem and also responding to cases where somebody might have have experienced harm that are that are that are based on race so that's something that we're going to be putting out as well here soon so just just some crime statistics you know year over year so just just to go through these just a little bit you know the blue is 2019 and then everything after that you know we saw a significant spike in larcenies in in burglaries assaults sex offenses drug offenses the last two years you know part of that's been been related to to covid with you know what what was going on with that and people being you know locked down and that type of thing part of it is related to what's going on in the rest of the state and the whole state is seeing their their numbers increasing we haven't been immune to that but we certainly aren't as as subjective to it as other agencies have been and even some here in chitlin county so those are the things that we're seeing stolen vehicles really really stuck out to me and then seeing the the chief's report from burlington last night it made me realize that we're you know we're seeing the same things that that city of burlington is seeing with stolen vehicles it's just been a problem for everyone in chitlin county the last two years chief connect this is roge can i ask you a question about the numbers yeah absolutely um this is 2022 was this through last month or yeah that would have been through um i believe it was like october first because that's pretty dramatic drops and if there's only what two and a half months left in the year and your some of these numbers are fairly dramatic drops which is yes yeah larceny burglary and assault um correct yeah for 2022 we have seen that we have seen a pretty significant drop in those and like i said part of that's been related to um the covid restrictions being being lifted in some of the folks that were being housed here in in sx and sx junction now not uh being housed here as for traffic which is always a great uh concern of ours um as you folks know you know our number of traffic stops dropped by by more than half from from 2019 to 2020 and then 2021 and these are just for the city um so our numbers really went down during those two years it appears as most of those are coming back and um you know this is through june 30th hey um roge i'm sorry i might have misspoke that is through those those numbers were through um june 30th okay so our traffic stops um you know look like they're coming back uh we're we're re-engaging with traffic enforcement uh i was in a meeting the other day uh at the state level in regards to traffic numbers and our our traffic fatalities in vermont are seriously up for the year and they have been in last year and they are this year as well um the number of tickets written in the number of traffic stops are way down across the state and the the the point of the meeting was was identifying that problem and what we can do to to increase that number of enforcement on the enforcement side to get officers to re-engage back in traffic traffic enforcement and there's a number of reasons for why that has happened um but uh you know some of the things that we have done to try to avoid that is um you know the officers have been encouraged to continue their traffic enforcement here in esx because our citizens are asking us to do that and if we fail to do that then we will lose the support of the citizens and that's not something we want to do um so we recognize that traffic enforcement is a is an issue for us and we are still engaging with that that's why we do have a dedicated traffic officer again um and i and i will say our number of traffic stops in comparison to agencies that border us um some of them those numbers are about four times as many as the other agencies are so and just real quick on that in in my mind it makes sense in many ways where if the traffic count if traffic stops are occurring less because the past two years larceny burglary all these violent defenses are on the rise correct i frankly would hope that the traffic issue is being put to the side while other more serious life-threatening things are that's that's absolutely true yeah if the more calls for service that we have the less time that we have to do traffic enforcement right if you're just curious when i mean i appreciate what all works been done this together uh your information on more of your crashes i mean there's a vast you know you have property you know just property damage injury serious injury fatal what right i mean it's not broken down but i assume it's not those are total numbers those those include everything everything from a fender bender to parking lot all the way to a major crash yes yeah and i'd just be interested because a lot here as you're aware and we're all aware i mean the population the density in the village or the city i should say as opposed to the town outside i mean you got a higher concentration of people right you know uh vulnerable users such as pedestrians or bicyclists uh crossing intersections and the traffic you know just so it would be interesting to see how that all plays out how that breaks down yeah yeah the generally the more serious crashes we see here in in the city are rare but the ones that we do see are bicyclists and pedestrians because that's that's what we know we have out in the town we see more involved with single vehicle crashes that type of thing that are more serious so that's what i have for you i'm interested into to answer any more questions that you might have or anything like that and and i will close by saying that i was asked last week to plan tours for the select board to come through the police department and i did put in the request that you all be included in that all of the of the trustees um so that way you guys get a chance to come and see what we do on a day-to-day basis and and get to see the building uh and what we do so i appreciate that night i have taken you up in the past especially with um spending time with one of the officers which frankly was a wonderful experience for lack of a better phrase very eye-opening in many regards it was something that i personally appreciate having the opportunity to do and i would look to the other counselors here to also take up that opportunity as it's one thing to hear from you and it's another thing to actually see the officers in their line of work and address that they're under that is absolutely true and i would extend that invitation to anyone yeah um one one question i do have i saw the you provided the stats which is appreciative i'm curious in your tenure how are you seeing the calls for services changing if they are changing from say free covid during now covid or early parts of covid to now are you seeing a shift in the types of quality or the department's getting well initially when covid first started we we saw a real drop in our calls for service i mean ever people were locked down uh we didn't really we didn't really see a lot of incidents we started seeing more like domestic violence um intoxication those types of things as we've gone on and things have adapted we've started seeing more like larcenies and those types of things that at some of our major businesses especially lows um we were having a up until probably about three months ago we were having major issues with lows with retail thefts from there not as much in the city it was directed more out on susie wilson road area and that type of thing but so as we've gone on we've seen those things kind of less than as well as you saw with those numbers but we're we're currently still seeing drug offenses we're still seeing folks that are involved in that in the sale of drugs uh we're just doing a search warrant tonight as i was coming in here my officers were out doing a search warrant uh in the town uh for not for drugs but certainly certainly uh some other activity that's around that stuff so yeah just curious um what from your experience working here within the town in the city what can we do as governing body within the city to enhance enforcement or you know enhance the work you're doing so i mean obviously hiring more police officers would be great but in the form of uh maybe getting message out to uh businesses residents um ordinances that you may i mean we tried to lend the ordinances between the town and the city so it's consistent across um is there anything you can think of to ask us i think the greatest thing that the boards can do is just is to support us especially in our efforts surrounding traffic enforcement there are there are some some people and some advocates that are out there who would not want who would advocate for us to not do as much traffic enforcement and what we're seeing as far as with impaired driving around the state and and with speed enforcement especially or speed violations especially um you know enforcement like you said is how we it's how we take care of that between education and enforcement those are the two ways that we can really make an impact with that and if we're not out there actually making the average motorist believe that they're that there's a chance that they're going to be caught you know violating the law then they're going to be virtually doing that with impunity so i would say is is if you're out talking to citizens that i think just let them know that we're we're not doing this or not enforcing the traffic laws for money where this is about saving lives and it's about saving injuries yeah i just be calling for my career like you're saying chief it's it's educational yeah it's not just you know revenue people get that and then always the end of the month oh the end of the month two stats no there's nothing to do with that it's all about educating the people about this and i assume just like i did mike state that if there's contact there's some form of documentation of every interaction yes there's a warrant written warning or some something that's documents so it's maintained so they can show this is what we we addressed this is how we addressed it for whatever reason no that that's absolutely right and i'm glad to see the other thing i think a lot of people also are are saying officers should this should be this way this should be that way no officer discretion i often brought it up to people in the past that if you do away with officer discretion you're going to have a lot more people upset with you officer discretion is important to have maintain that because it's just in many ways better i think for the public too yeah i mean i mean our officers are trained in procedural justice and we certainly understand that not everyone deserves a ticket i mean as a police department we write about 70 warning versus 30 tickets and it's and it's really about changing behavior not not costing someone money that's not what it's about uh and when it comes to impaired driving you know that that's obviously a another realm of traffic so yeah roger see your hands up yeah excuse me i just wanted to just wanted to make sure the community um understood uh that um chief hogan and the department have been very supportive of dmi work and sxs in this whole process um and it's it's it's hard to um overstate how how much effort has been put into this area over the past two or three years um and i am very appreciative and i i just want to make sure folks know that there's a lot of work being done i truly believe there's 100 buy-in for leadership in the department in this area um and i think we should all be grateful that um that we have that leadership and we were able to keep the relationship with sxpd as we separated from the town um i just wanted to say thanks for that um and it's been an interesting process um some great conversation um so i just wanted to put that out there and make sure the board knew and that the community knew that um that there's a lot of good work going on and um and thanks no thank you roger for saying that i mean and this has been a real learning process for for us as well and we've we've certainly learned a lot and been able to make uh a lot of progress with citizen contacts and we have we've made a lot even friends with with people in the best group and folks that are that have been involved uh over the last couple of years it's been a it's been a positive relationship and that's one of the reasons why we continue to engage in it uh and you know we we not only want to be an effective police department but but we want to be a professional police department and do things the right way any other questions anything else for us no that is it thank you very much for for listening to me for soul yeah well no we we appreciate you being here really do appreciate the work of the department um certainly let us know when the citizens police academy is is available absolutely it'll be be a quite good experience absolutely thank you very much thank you thank you have good night and so next up we have a discussion and consideration the library roof bid yes so um you had a project in your capital plan to replace the library roof and thinking through that project it made some sense to also think about relocating the entrance because the way the two groups kind of come together there ends up being just a ton of ice um build up in front of the entrance um but that's neither here nor there because this went out to bid and um we only got two bids back um uh one of them um just for the roof but didn't necessarily come in in the proper way but even so um just two roofs with such complete disparity and what their the price points for this um roof we're just thinking that as we already know it's a really tough time to get contractors um and to think through this work so um the staff perspective we can put a small investment into repairing one section of the roof that's definitely damaged and needs repair before the snow falls um but we should we have plenty of time we're thinking in the life of the roof that's there and we can kind of regroup a little bit um think about putting more money in the capital plan if necessary but um that's that that's the recommendation at this sounds logical in my mind yep there are no questions comments concerns we have the recommended motion i will move that we reject the two bid submitted for replacement of the library second thank you george thank you dan is there any further discussion here none all in favor please signify by saying aye aye those opposed please say nay great so that passed unanimously and next we go into the acting zoning administrator appointment yes i would like to be acting zoning administrator so uh it terry's on vacation right now and it became clear that we probably should have done this when i started just to make sure we've got two folks who can who can play this role if need be um and uh until such time that we have a community development director in place that makes the most logical sense that i step in and be that acting person when terry it is unavailable uh so that is the recommendation makes sense have you memorized all of i have not because you know the only ministry you have to just be able to spit them right out you can't stop and look them up all right i'll make a motion that uh we appoint city manager regina mohoney as acting zoning administrator until such time at that the new community development director is hired and when the assistant zoning administrator is on leave i'll second dan thank you george any further discussion hearing none all in favor please signify by saying aye aye aye those opposed please say nay great so that passed unanimously as well thank you really thank you thank you regina and now on to the accountant physician yeah so we talked about this at the last meeting when we did our conversation about fy24 goals and a little bit of a check in as to where we are this year with moving towards separation um so uh separation has always contemplated this third finance staff person um and uh because this position isn't right now in our personnel policy uh just wanted to bring this in front of you um to authorize me to move forward on that position thank you regina see any hi i'll i'll move that we authorize the city manager to add the accountant to position at a grade eight and incorporate this addition in the next update personnel policy i'll second that thank you both any further discussion hearing none all those in favor please signify by saying aye aye aye opposed please say nay great so that passed unanimously thank you all again and five h we moved to our table for a subsequent meeting so that will bring us into the consent items thank you dan i'll second thank you george any further discussion hearing none all in favor please signify by saying aye aye aye opposed please say nay great on to the reading file and board member comments i've got nothing anybody have anything you want to talk about do you not have any comments regina anything else that's going on you want to make sure we hear um i don't think so well then with that i would entertain i'm gonna be adjourned there you go dan thank you raj any further discussion hearing none all in favor please signify by saying aye aye aye aye that's opposed to nay great passing unanimously have a good night everybody good night good night see you night everybody bye thanks