 Hi, from your translator's team, the speaker is resourcefm, I've just heard from him this year first. Some of you might have seen it on FIFS blog, so I'm welcoming criticality of resources. When will the bomb go up? Martin Hildebrandt. Right, hi and good evening. I'm glad that it got so full at 10 o'clock. I thought it would be for your people, for those that do not know me and ask them themselves, who is this guy? I am Martin Hildebrandt and I'm currently studying at the Oxford University in Bavaria and I'm studying economical engineering and as a student, in more than one case, I got to know this concept of welfare or wealth criticality and that, oh no, raw material is criticality and that's what I want to talk about to give you an idea about how raw material is criticality can be evaluated and what it actually means about myself. As I said, I'm doing a podcast at resourcefm.fm about material and energy raw materials. This is not going to be about any individual raw materials, I'm going to touch upon that briefly, but it's going to be about a method how to evaluate their criticality. I have distributed this, divided this talk into four parts, basics at first, which may be new to some of you, then I'm going to talk about the 3TG materials and explain what 3TG actually stands for, who of you actually knows what 3TG stands for, show up please. Okay, you're in the right place if you don't know because you'll know after the talk. And the third item will be criticality analysis and the fourth, if we have time for that and if I'm not getting pushed off the stage, I will be talking about the future, how these methods could be developed further and how we can progress. But let's jump right in. I have a very colorful, very chaotic, maybe chaotic diagram here and that shows how raw material, raw materials are gained, commodities are had a small legend explaining the three main colors, orange for the parts relating to materials, green relates the processes and blue relates to products. What now relating to materials, that is, you have to see it this way, that is where you know what's inside. You have ores being mined, you know, it's a aluminium ore or a gold ore and this is then refined and processed. And we still know that there's gold or aluminium inside. And then there is, then we get to a certain border where the knowledge was actually inside disappears. I have brought such a product with me, this is aluminium foil, okay, that is simple, most of you will know that it does contain aluminium but there is a second product I brought with me and that is a lighter and that has this wheel that creates friction and I assume that some of you know what that is made of, one of you knows, right. So that contains rare earths, if you want to show off at a party, then you can say I've got raw earths in my pocket, maybe don't do that, okay, never mind. And also, you know, from this point in time, you don't really know any more what's inside and if you look further, there's a number of steps coming after that, so it's used, then there's the end of life of the product when it will have to be dealt with by depositing or reusing or other means. But there are other items that you may not so well, there is one item here called dissipation and that is the fine distribution of the materials and that happens across all the other stations. So in a mine, if you mine for any materials, you have wastewater, you have dust and the same applies to refining and up to the point of use. Classically, if you drop your phone into the sea then it's gone, it's not deposited, it's not waste, I hope you know that. In any case, that is when it's dissipated, you cannot regain it, you cannot reuse it. At the end of life, there is not just depositing in landfills, but there are these various re-phases and three of these are in blue and three in green. You have recycling which you know where the mobile phone gets shredded and made into a new product. Remanufacturing, mostly grouped under recycling, but this is about taking individual components from the product that are still good and reusing those. Say you have an electric car and the battery isn't as good anymore and you replace the battery, you take it out and use it as an energy store somewhere in the house, maybe reuse is where you have a product that you don't really want to use anymore, you have an old mobile phone perhaps and there are always new phones coming out and they're coming out faster and faster and with Germans they say okay it's still good, I might use it better, I want to get rid of it because I want a new one, so what happens to the old mobile? Some throw it away, some say okay I'm going to build a weather station out of that or whatever, I'm going to repurpose it and that is reuse. And the other three phases that I've depicted in green are process related and they affect all the processes at every station, there is reduce, clearly you try to use less of the material, there are permanent magnets, they contain neodymium which is a very rare material, the price has risen sharply in the last few years, so you try to reduce the use of that, there's a classical bias before reduce, redesign in a car you had heavy bodies and you try to reduce those now to say weight but also raw materials and refuse that may be not so clear, not so well known, you prohibit the use of certain materials such as carbonated fluoride in cooling agents, so that has been banned, but if people say, if customers say we don't want to use it anymore, that is part of refuse as well. The second thing that's going to be important is the so-called Mekkeldi diagram, don't be afraid, this may be a bit difficult to take in, but what you should remember from this is the reserves and the resources, the big division here is between reserves, whenever we talk about reserves it's about things you can find in the ground that can be mind in a profitable way at current market prices, current technologies and at the same time I know that these occurrences are there, you know that they're in the ground, you know where they are and which quality they are there about resources, it's kind of different, you have occurrences that may not be able to be exploited profitably, all they haven't been discovered yet, so I suspect or I deduce that hypothetically something should be there because on the right perhaps I have an occurrence and on the left of it and you could then assume or at least suspect that in the middle you have another place to exploit and now why is this relevant, you'll find that out later. The resource bases at the bottom here, that will be raw materials that I can gain from say seawater, not that relevant because that is quite far away in the future, but for completeness I've included them here as well. Right, now that gives me to the second item, the three TG materials. I'll talk more about that because just very few people said that they know what TG is, so it's about three raw materials and so they use the English words in German as well because in German it doesn't sound good if you say TG, but it doesn't start with those. Okay, so you see the names here, but why is this relevant, why do I talk about that? So those three TG materials are often called conflict resources, what's that? They are clearly defined, what it is, you may think, but they're actually defined differently in different countries. So the first thing is that you have the US definition, there's conflict resources or resources which are exploited in Congo and other countries around Congo. Why? Because they're known for civil wars, for not being very secure so those three TG materials are suspected to enhance these conflicts because war groups and warlords exploit those materials, sell them and then finance their civil wars with them further. So this is why you ask the US, we want to surveil that and we want to check that and we want to prohibit it. And so they try to reduce the use of three TG materials and go to other similar materials that is not conflict written. The European Union, they said, well, it's worldwide and potentially everything, so they have a much more broad definition of that. So for example, you have had diamonds, fossil oil, stuff like that, rare woods, drugs, because diamonds have been known, for example diamonds, you know that they have been used for financing conflicts and civil wars, not that much today, but still it is for the three TG it's the same, they have been used a lot for financing wars, but now this is reduced, but other examples are like cocoa, cotton, and other stuff. So this supports and finances conflicts at BRD, which is like the Republic of Germany, they also have their own definition. So this is about legal stuff. Okay, but I wanted to say what are those resources actually used for and why are they relevant for us in Europe? For example, gold, gold in case of gold nuggets, it's, well, it's just in jewelry, but especially as gold contacts on like on your smartphone. I suppose most of you have a smartphone with you. Yeah, so all the hands raised. Yeah, it's a Hacker Congress, of course you have. So in all of those devices, there's gold in there. Also usually you have like Wolfram, which is used for filament that was used at that, but it isn't used anymore. If you have like a touch display, where you just have a button that is like indicated, but not actually there, and you have an engine in the back, which actually vibrates for you. And this is done. This is usually a Wolfram, an engine done by tungsten, sorry. So it's in many like Tantar. So it's another rare. So you see a picture of a single crystal in a lot of technology devices. This is in there and mostly it is not replaceable. Yeah, it's Tantal, yeah. So yeah, it's also in chemistry. It's used a lot. And there you have a lot of like places where it's used. Well, in tin, yeah, of course you can use it for soldering. Usually, but also in your display, they're like tin, well, displays use tin. So you see that's relevant. And it's relevant where those resources come from. So usually, like people say, well, this is the region where those things come from, is the African region of the big seas. So the production, the Great Lakes, sorry, Great Lakes from the, from Africa. And so they, well, they checked that this is the data that is published by the US and see in Europe, there's not a lot of those resources. There's even 4% in Austria because Austria has a big mine of one of those. North America is, yeah, there's also just a bit of gold. South America does have some stuff. Russia has a lot of gold, Tantal and tin. But here, we said everything comes from Africa. So we see Africa has a lot of Tantal, but so the data actually contradicts what is usually said about those resources, because there's a lot of stuff that comes from Asia actually. And this is something that is in the European definition, but not in the American or US definition. So there is the suspicion that some stuff is brought to Asia and then, like, well, whitewash there. But if we look at the reserves and the reserves now, maybe you remember the definition we brought before. So actually Asia and Russia do have a lot of reserves of those resources. So this doesn't fit that this is kind of just whitewashing. Be careful. These are just American. This is just American data. Actually, the database is very unclear for those things. So that's why, well, enjoy this. So use this carefully. America doesn't have, well, submitted any data, so for the US. So for example, they don't know, they say they don't know the data. Maybe they don't publish it for political reasons. We don't know, but yeah. So now, a criticality analysis and what are like what will be the results of this? Like a kind of analysis. As a company, for example, you could do a vulnerability study. So you would look at which resources for technologies that we're using. For example, what happens if the resources exhausted could we survive or not? If you look at the delivery analysis there, for example, at Fraunhofer Institute, I worked, it's very difficult because the providers of the materials don't actually know where they're from. So we looked at Tantal and they couldn't say as where it is from. So that actually surprised me because it's really difficult to find out. So we don't want to do that today. Good that I talked about it. Resource criticality, that's what we want to look at now. An economic analysis. I don't want to look at social impacts because then we would sit here the whole evening. But we should also, you should keep in mind that I only look at the economic reasons. And then maybe we have time to discuss what as a company or as a country you could do. Okay. The problems and how you do it, I actually looked, I explained a bit. We had a problem that the data quality was very bad. So and we have data from very different places. And data that is not really relatable, like they are like day and night differences. So bring that down to one number is also important because we don't want like 10 or 20 numbers. That just one number that tells me is it critical or not. So we guessed missing data with geometric assumption. Deviation. Then we did that with every country for 10,000 months and then we So zero in this case is good and 100 is bad. And we have this analytical hierarchy process which gives you ways of weighing up the different factors. If you didn't understand that, don't worry, I'll come back to it and explain a bit more. Now 11 indicators we used with it, which we grouped into four categories. And when I say we, it is myself and two co-students that supported me and with whom I've worked on this. So I have 11 indicators grouped into four categories. And I would suggest that we simply go through all these indicators and discuss what we do with them. The first risk indicator is the risk of reduction of supply. So you have static reservoir, reach, static resource reach and end of life recycling rate. The static reach is something you can imagine to be you have the reservoir, the amount of material that you suspect is there and divide that by the amount that is produced every year. And that gives you a number of years. So you can say for 10 years I can go on doing it as I have before. And you can see that that is static. The Cup of Rome brought out a report in the 1970s that said in the year 2000 all the resources will have been exhausted and people said okay that's kind of bad and we have to do something. And now we have the year 2020, we're still here, we're still alive. So it can't be quite right. And it isn't quite right in this case either because reserves, resources are not fixed. If market prices rise, the demand rises and if demand rises you have more people providing supplies. People are just retrieving more, producing more and that changes things, raises amounts. But that is an indicator that tells us where we are at the moment. Regarding the end of life recycling rates, this is the product's end of life, not the recycling rates during the process. The federal government kind of confuses these two and that makes it's everything seem fine. But this is about the recycling rate at the end of life of the product. And there are various data sources here. I've given the literature sources here that these are the sources we used. Like I said, we had to norm the whole thing and again we had it on a scale of 0 to 100. And I brought some data with me. For example, you can see here the static reserve reach and the static resource reach or the you can say okay, 103 years left looks good. But if you have 10 with 16.9 years that isn't that good. So depending on how prices change, how quickly projects can be implemented, that might become pretty critical. Regarding the recycling rate, you can see that there is still potential here. It's 39% is kind of good but by no means perfect. But now finally we'll come to the indicators that we calculated. Who of you knows box plot diagrams? Okay, some of you do. I'll take a brief box plot diagram shows you a middle value and average or median and that is adorned with a box. The so-called confidence interval of say 15%. And so the colored box is the 95% interval and the the whiskers are the 95% confidence and the colored box is the 50% interval. And we've calculated these indicators for all these materials and see that one of them is an actual outlier that is tantalum. So the amount of time left in reserves is quite low and then resources. But basically the reason for this is that the data is chaotic and we have from okay to don't know to or we are going to die and we are going to use it. But you can say that we are fairly critical here in the near the 100 value for three materials and then recycling rate doesn't look that good either. Now the second category of indicators let's see if things get better here. This is the risk of extended demand. So we have couple production you have say you have production of one main material of tungsten. But there is a mine that just doesn't just mine tungsten but other products as well. But the actual operating of the mine is determined by the price of tungsten. So if you we kind of try to link the main products and the coupled products together and and this is about extended supply, extended demand. If demand rises the mine may not be able to supply the amount of the coupled products and the demand for future technologies. It's the second indicator so we have estimated what the demand in 2030 with new technologies will be compared to the production the annual production rate at the moment. And last we have the substitutability the degree to which material can be substituted. In the best case I have something that is not radioactive in the worst case you have uranium which is also very dense material just like tungsten is but sometimes you can replace a material and sometimes you cannot. This is a not very clear diagram but we've worked with these kind of diagrams this comes from the UN originally and we've looked at the coupled products which belong to which main products. You have a substitution statements about substitution tungsten is not very well substitutable the others are in the middle ground. You have percentage figures how much the demand is going to rise with new technologies until 2030 so 205 percent above the current demand tungsten that is a bit much and same with gold and this is about new technologies and everything that's currently available is also going on. And again we calculated indicator values first for the coupled production that looks fairly good as you can see in that diagram everything is in the margins about 10 percent so demanding regarding demand with future technologies it looks worse with the exception of 10. 10 is okay and the other three are not looking good. Substitutability we are in the middle area or perhaps in the good area regarding tungsten and tantalum if you use that as a compound it gets more difficult. Now to the third category the concentration risk we've used something which is called the Herfindal-Hischmann index if you are involved with economics at all you know this this is about measuring market concentration this indicator this index takes values from zero to 10 000 and basically it's the squared share of production per land summed up so you have countries that produce a lot. I'll just show you the graphics and it will get more understandable. Now formative is that our mind in just a few countries have a high index and those where the supply is spread across different countries have a lower index which is the case with gold for example. The Americans and Europeans have different interpretations again the Americans say that a value of above 2 500 is critical the Americans say what about 100 is problematic and looking at these three these four materials that were selected each one except gold reach critical levels and again in the diagram gold looks good regarding country concentration and the other three look bad why is the company concentration worse well we have some countries where these resources are mined but we have multinational companies corporations that work in several countries so that reduces the market to these few companies leading to a higher concentration and therefore a higher risk of course a few companies you see it with OPEC they can strongly influence the price regarding tantalum for example you have the case that company concentration is not regarding does not refer to the mining companies but those that do further processing because mining is often done in mines where people where people work in slave-like conditions and human rights are ignored and you cannot really say that they're using machinery they are this is forced labor they have very bad conditions and people try to influence this but this is not reflected in this diagram because the multinational corporations are only in the second stage of this process when it comes to further processing now to something a bit more social geopolitical so how how secure are those countries safe so you have political stability so all of the three look for well production per country but now we see wgipa this world government index well that measures political stability and the absence of terrorism and violence and stuff so you have the political potential which is just questioning mining companies how they well measure how they think that the country how stable the count those companies think those countries are stable or not is it difficult to have to to mine in those countries or not at the end you have the risk of regulation well which is very not unsocial actually I take the human development index so if you have a high development human development index that means this land this country has a lot of regulation like Germany which has a lot of regulation for most areas and so it's very difficult to implement new mining well ideas quickly so this is why it's here as a risk and it's and the low human development index is seen as something positive in the in that case well that's why I said at the beginning you should look at ecological and social points and but this is but because just economic values can be used but it's pretty well not nice so for the political stability you see three are pretty bad and tungsten is very bad for the political potential you see there's a huge spike for tungsten again a potential sorry that's because the Fraser Institute which uses this political potential thing they make the questionnaire and they try to do it in most in many countries but it's pretty difficult to to ask mining companies in countries that have civil wars because usually those companies then have different problems from just answering questionnaires and you can also it's difficult to go to the mines and ask question people so and also they just well well guess the values again easy have that for the regulation three of them are pretty bad because there's a lot of regulation just tantal is good because the human development index in that case is pretty low where tantal is exploited so there's not a lot of regulation in such countries so you could do easily implement mining projects in those countries but the other factors work against this regulation missing regulation okay again there's a graphic that is a bit chaotic and difficult to read but i try to color it to make it more easily understandable so the colors tell you if it's good or bad so this is from another project on this ahp ahp yeah we just weighted those values and then summed them up at the end and we see that the tungsten is really bad um so and it's a high risk yeah also gold is fair well goes pretty well because it's uh exploited in mind in many countries so if you see the box diagram you see still everything is rather well above the medium so we should which is better than we have seen from the single uh indicators then from the european union there's on the right side you also see a graphics and what they found out is that tungsten has a huge supply risk and is also very important for the economic zone of europe interesting is that gold is very low on economic importance in this analysis but so but otherwise it's it's pretty similar but we we looked at it we said it's a bit more critical than this european report says well so now about uh well what we can do what kind of company do what kind of country do to well make this more safe and to to work against those factors so we have three big categories in the center of this for all of four of those materials well it's just research and development and recycling that's on the left top everything we can recycle and don't have to report is good for a country because that means we don't support conflicts in other countries we just have like a cycle in in germany which so there's no political we can't be like extorted politically and we don't support wars and conflicts so in a long-term perspective that's good we can also try on the left bottom while developing substitutes and a circle economic system so it's so if i can substitute well any resource by another one that's what makes me much more flexible and so this is good for recycling as well and it's like the basis for recycling because only if i have like a circular economic system i can actually recycle stuff especially in technology it's difficult actually you you may return electronic devices but not all well sellers actually do this and you can turn the man but back but you don't really know what happens with this so maybe some of those like well broken devices or thrown away devices are just exported back to africa and so which is not good so this is it's not good if we bring just our if we ship our garbage to other countries but if you just well recycle them on the right hand side these are a bit more like specific especially for tungsten which is is useful to make a reverse integration meaning you buy companies that are that are earlier in the supply chain than i do i can also invest in those in companies or make like long-term contracts so that i know that the well that the supplies made secure and i'm not yeah so the country can and the last one well just a storage and diversification actually that's only useful for tentel and because if you if they know that there's a political conflict coming and maybe a war then you have some time to switch countries for your supplies stuff like that so that's why it's useful if you have if you have well a storage of it especially all those conflict resources the european union well it well made themselves forced itself to to prohibit and to not use resources that are well exploited in mind in problem countries for example in mines okay to the future of the methodology this time i looked more into than the methodology this time but also i see the problems on the methodology for example there should be a social and ecologic indicators that should be weighted in as well also we need a better databases because currently some things we can say about are difficult to say so for example we now we can say where do we actually need data so we can analyze it better also the edit we have to take care for different resources as well for example not just the three the tg materials but other resources as well for example cobalt should we add that or not this is discussion right now and finally the methodology should be standardized to make a standard quality analysis i presented to you one today you already saw that european commission also picked one that works and the results are somewhat similar but not the same so there is more research required to for example get more precise measurements okay and with that it's the end for this presentation but that's not the end of the world luckily so at the start of the talk i said when does the bomb explode it's not now so you can go home and have a good sleep so we have some years to solve the problem so to extinguish the lid okay i am now if you want you can question me things also if you want to help me with my podcast um resource and fm um or maybe if you just want to help me if you're in the area of expertise just go to my website and there you can find more information about the regulatory and critical analysis thank you very much okay this was the talk um about resource criticality from the 36 c3 um your translators swear afro sun zebelis and dimitri if you have feedback to us please tweet to us with the hashtag c3 lingo thank you very much and now we make questions and answers signal angel wants to know about recycling technologies and well yes and no the technology technologies exists in some areas some are experimental for example regarding batteries that is a huge problem that's being hyped a lot these days people say they cannot be recycled they're not normed it is basically possible there are pilots but it's simply not worth it at the moment it's more it's cheaper to import new materials because the materials are cheap and the external costs are not included in those market prices and if remote research will take place then the process will become cheaper and regarding capacities some are there but not as many not enough to have a hundred percent coverage and there's nothing nothing nothing prevents these capacities from being built up and this has to be done for other had to be done for other waste processing activities okay substitution that factor is um very underestimated and has been underestimated and can destroy all these numbers so in all the statistics for example the electro engine from tesla in a quarter year they produced an engine without neodymium and they um publicly made the pattern available so it can go real quickly for substitution if the prices go up for example lithium um to my knowledge there is an facility built that is working completely without it is recycling them because it already is profitable um contrary to the arguments of our auto industry that says it's not possible yeah that's true regarding substitution yes you can substitute a lot of materials but the question then is the availability of those substitute resources at some point you have gone through the whole periodic table of elements and yes what is a factor of course and it has huge potential but still I think that recycling economy is something to look at because well maybe it will drop on our feet in 50 years time but maybe 100 so you have to think about recycling which role could um asteroids or moon play because there is a periodically a huge potential right yeah well yeah it sounds quite spaced out but yes there are many projects thank you for the question it's a very interesting topic yes in the long run it surely will make sense we have limits on earth and at some point we will have exhausted all resources we are very far away from that point now but uh we have a thin crust which we still haven't drilled through but still the question is which is more simple shall we take a meteorite and exhaust that or exploit that or shall we drill further into the ground and for some materials such as rare earths it does make sense to think about long term strategies of mining in space on the other hand a rocket launch does take a lot of materials and money and there are ecological questions but in the long run if we think about colonizing mars for example then we won't be able to carry all the materials from earth to mars we'll have to exploit mars as well and there's a question from the internet the irc wants to know how does it look with the um co2 emissions and energy um in the recycling compared to new resource gathering for example aluminium which is known for being very energy intensive yes with aluminium interestingly uh it's the iron ore mining that takes more energy and produces more emissions because it takes them uses more energy so co2 emissions and energy can be regarded as the same equivalents especially where energy is not gained or produced in a renewable in a sustainable way with aluminium it takes a lot of electricity to get it from the iron ore and that is one of the materials that has the highest recycling rates because it's more it's cheaper to reuse it and it produces less co2 as well and regarding steel the the tissenkrupp company is trying to become carbon neutral and they want to use a hydrogen process but of course if that works why not use recycling too it may not seem that great for now but it makes sense to do it in the medium term too okay next question from mike two please okay what's the um terrible thing that could happen to our resources for example like peace in africa and everything gets more expensive or the question was what is the most dangerous thing that could happen to us for example what would happen if there is peace in africa and everything gets more expensive because of that well no actually no because clearly the war is responsible for very bad living conditions in africa so there's not something we can laugh about really i should say because there is a lot of drama human drama involved there and if people then have a better life they will demand higher wages and if people are put in forced labor of course they will not receive top wages sure so yes it will it would become more expensive but first we cannot foresee peace coming very soon very very sadly we've had wars there for decades in various parts of the world and i don't really see that ending from one day to the next and also well so what currently we still have prices for many materials that are quite low and if we talk about this if we talk about complete equality across the whole world i would assume that up to that point by that time we will have the recycling technologies as well and okay there's a question from the internet from irc as well can you say something about political concepts to prevent the trade of electronic waste uh yes well there is well what is the current problem we have electronic waste that is lying around in german or european recycling facilities or collecting facilities and are waiting to be put to use which could also include burning and depositing of course recycling would be better and what what does happen a lot and again and again is that electronic waste is taken from these facilities and taken by people that work there in part and then sold on and we have rules to prevent this but the understanding isn't quite there yet if people say i want to buy this certain device then they don't quite understand why they should not do that and the fact that this ends up in africa and and children are then trying to ply certain wires out of that waste or that's something we don't see and we should step up surveillance of these facilities but actually we have the means and the legal foundations already in place so maybe there is a lack of political will to actually enforce these rules because it is a question about well say plastic waste where should it go if we can take it to china well that's a convenient way of dealing with it and if i as a municipality or a region or a country can do this then maybe it will look better and soon as as long as a population is not rising up against these practices then for your politicians will care regarding electronic waste there's a very good movie about this welcome to gumora out to sodom i can recommend this it deals with it puts a light on the status core and what could be done and i can only support this it's an impressive movie next question okay thanks for the presentation i have a question the height of these indicators at the end they are um related to the weighting factors as well so could you explain how these weights are obtained where do you get them from because you did not we have a paper that we wrote about it and we tried out various factors in that and we decided upon this hp weighting weighing weights this is about having a survey of experts that are regarded as important and put very simply the question it's a choice of a or b with each question and that gets you to the information which weight should be higher and that leads to the generating of these factors and i can then see if someone goes and would just write down the weights for these 11 factors that would be a very spontaneous decision and this in contrast is the synthesis synthesis of these different expert opinions i didn't do these myself these were done in the institute where did this study did that answer the question also regarding this we took other weights for an equal distribution for example and paid around the results changed surprisingly little they perhaps 10 more or less but what was in the middle region remained there and these are factors that try to measure things that are at a very high level if we talk about countries we have a statement which is important and makes sense but you could turn it down much more in much more detail and much more exactly and like i say we connected various sources with each other with which are very far apart sometimes okay question microphone one we heard a lot about the 3 tg resources are there other critical resources or are those the critical resources or could you please say something about oil maybe uh yeah right when i wrote the paper with the two colleagues with ingrid and marie we looked at the 3 tg materials because we thought well to look at them all would be too much of an effort and other groups looked at other materials as well the 3 tg materials did quite well in comparison there is a diagram from the european commission well they did another one where they said everything down there is critical and interestingly all the dots are in in the same box there are only two that were not regarded three that were not regarded as critical and they probably looked at the materials that they regarded as critical from the start so the question is where do you draw the line where which value is critical and what does that mean and this methodology makes it easier if you as a company uh have determined these strategically important materials and for these 10 you can run this kind of analysis and then say okay maybe we should look at tungsten or whatever and uh we so you can weigh this up and overall you have to look at all materials now regarding oil uh as you mentioned it that is difficult because it's energy resource as well because the so the price for oil is not really coupled to the material use of it in industry which is great normally don't misunderstand me oil is a fantastic material you can do produce so many cool products from it and we just burn it that is kind of crazy in 100 years we probably tell our own children what how silly were we uh we have this great material that we're not using properly and it's hard to run this kind of analysis because so many other factors get involved and uh oil of course can be a conflict resource as well because it can support conflicts if we look at oil rich countries we have the problem of the the resource curse you can google that uh if if you have countries that exploit one material intensively you these tend to be non-democratic or absolutist and despotic and in their governance does that answer the question otherwise come to me after the talk yeah thanks for the um presentation uh what's about the factor to use products more efficiently like the own car for example yes that two is difficult i believe how should i measure it in the first place well that makes it hard to start with and also there's often a kind of rebound effect so you have more efficient use maybe regarding leds for example we have leds everywhere now why because they're cheap and they use less electricity and they do produce very nice late but now you have leds hanging everywhere now whether electricity consumption has reduced is difficult to decide and sometimes it's not the case because when a technology gets cheaper and energy use is more efficient we use more of it and not less so and again inefficiency often comes with an increase in use and electric cars again uh the suspicion is that soon as we have it we will use them all why shouldn't we of course oil prices are a bit too high anyway at the moment that is my opinion did that answer the question okay and there is not a question from the internet the irc asks how many small countries in the poorer poorer countries which extract resources are there or how big does the company need to be to be in that market well which market is the question about uh in mining itself i would say one person so one person can start mining because the meteors may not be that deep in the ground so small-scale mining is possible if you just take pickaxe pickaxe something you can start so and you have multinational corporations exploiting a country uh it's not but it's of course bad if people force people into labor and if you have people in the artisanal and small-scale mining um how many companies that is it's difficult to delineate because often these are not listed there are estimates but honestly i don't have them uh in my head at the moment i could look them up and the question is where does one company begin on the other end maybe they have several companies in the same mine but that of course is the ambition of the EU and other countries to have this diligence and exercise diligence and get people out of slavery and have them work in a self-determined way and have them enjoy the fruits of their work as well so there are communities that our company like and get together and how many multinational corporations there are again that is hard to assess because regarding 3g i would have to guess i really don't know honestly okay mic number one you showed really nice that for example like work security or um environmental impact does not really play any role and you also said that you want to integrate that so how would you do that and if we would do that would then like not like the artificial price would explode there's i mean uh well included in the price for example if a tantal is mined so there we have to look at the radiation levels and then we need special suits for that and you have to educate the people and all the illnesses and you have to all all factor that in and like also the working conditions how would that impact our prices it would come more expensive yeah and there's also the question how much can recycling and substitution can well bring for that so this is why i said it's important to do that of course i can't tell you like is price but a real number i would be very surprised if anyone could tell you a real number how would you want to integrate into the future was my question how would you um value are awaited in okay so there's already the idea it exists as an idea so this is a ecological factors it says eco invent database and they uh well well they have some environmental numbers like yeah okay you can read the same thing can be done for social dimension and say like risk of child labor control of corruption right to freedom of speech um what we did we didn't do it for two reasons now in this first reason because we're lazy no that was a fun number one because it wouldn't it would just made the the the work too big in my bachelor thesis i i did this um we're just made it about aluminium it's very hard to to to have those factors as well important and as some reliable i mean you don't know how this data is measured and whether it's reliable or not but something it's rather easy we had like co2 emissions so that's that's easy to measure there you have standards so that's possible but like for human toxicity toxicity well there can be some tests but that's never the the reality that never really is the reality on on the ground and the risk of child labor for example in the social dimension i can include that but how can i quantified can i actually quantify it or is not just actually each single child that is forced to do child labor uh too bad so are we are we as a society ready to say that a single child uh has to suffer because we want our technology so this is so this is very difficult to to include all of this but so yeah we'll be we'll get more expensive uh but can we uh can we morally well sustain the idea that we don't want it to get more expensive yeah thanks for that sentence so there's not we're out of time left so there's one question that i want to be asked yeah the irc asks um how was it with a search for um the um resources on garbage sites so so we did some research into that we looked at that but very difficult for several reasons um there's a podcast episode from i did about uh well this one of the main basis one of the main problems is that we don't know where these garbage collections are um if you know for example in germany uh there has been you know that the there it's it's difficult to think because for example we had the second world war and we know that they they made a lot of garbage collections um and we just we today we just don't know where they have been so they just uh well they just put all the garbage below the next hill so we don't know where they are we don't know what's in there actually but no one really knows that so it's very rarely that that's really tracked which uh resources are where now people start doing it but so so now we have a legacy problem actually we have old systems which are not on the newest status and so that's why we don't know so for example and and also in buildings we want to we we want to recycle parts of buildings and materials buildings but we actually don't know what's in the these buildings what are the materials in there so for example if you have a garbage collection thing in the close to to frankfurt someone killed his wife and put her into the garbage um and the police found the murderer because they knew exactly which uh which uh well where which garbage where yeah but that's a huge uh thing to do it's a lot of work so unfortunately we're done by now so time is time is ended big applause okay thank you this is the end of our translation