 Vice President Yemio Shibajo is now in charge. President Mohamed Buhari announces as he goes on a medical trip. And many presidential aspirants should have been in jail, says former President Ushagun Basongam. For this, it's plus politics, I am Mary Ann Cohen. As President Mohamed Buhari departed the country for the United Kingdom for medical check-up, he stated that the Vice President Yemio Shibajo is in charge of the country and its affairs. At the moment, it has not been confirmed whether or not the President transmitted a letter to the National Assembly handing over power to the Vice President pending his return to the country. Now, when asked if his absence won't affect the state's functioning, he said, well, I do not claim to be doing the work alone. The government is fully represented. The Vice President is there, said Mr. President. Well, joining us to discuss this and more is Richard Wokocha. He's an Associate Professor of Public Law at the River State University. And of course, Ayodeji Awobiide is a legal practitioner. He's also joining us. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining us. Thank you for having us. Great. I'm sorry that I murdered your name, but I'll try to call it better next time. But I'm going to start with you, Professor. This is not the first time that the President has been urged to transmit power to his Vice President, being that that should be the modus operandi as, you know, the Constitution prescribes. But then we've seen back and forth, simulated this, even though the President has just gone for two weeks. Is this much to do about nothing? Are we fuzzing over nothing or should this be done by the book? Professor, I think that you're muted. Can you unmute yourself? All right. I think it's on now. Yes, we can hear you now. Can you hear me now? Yes. So I think it should be done by the books. There is no reason why it should be done differently. It's a formal regular team. And if the President is going to be aware for two weeks, even if he's not going under the sojourn tonight and he's not going to be unconscious, should simply transmit power to his Vice President. That's why he has a Vice President. There is no reason for him not to do so. Absolutely no reason for him not to do so. Why do you think it's very difficult for this President? Because he seems to be the one over and over that we've had to have this conversation about. Why does he seem so difficult for Mr. President to hand over power to his Vice President? Is it that he doesn't feel the need to or is it that he feels that he's above the law or the Constitution? It does not matter to this President. Perhaps one conclusion we can draw is probably that he feels he's not going in for something serious that is going to take time and therefore that it's not necessary to do so. But that reasoning will be, in my opinion, absolutely wrong. If he's going to be out from the country and the work of the President needs to be done, he should ensure that the office can run in this absence and transmit power. It does know how to him or the person to whom he is asked to transmit power. It's a formal procedure that he should comply with. Let me come to you, Ayodeji. A lot of people are still contemplating if the President has really sent a letter to the National Assembly or not. And then there's a buzzword that's been out there where the President did not just mention the Vice President, but he also mentioned two other people in the Cabinet saying these people will be running the government. For you, when you heard or you read that line, what message were you getting? Thank you. I think as it relates to that news report, if we sit down here and we are only speculating about whether or not the President indeed transmitted the letter, one of the many problems of this APC government is the lack of transparency at times. And this is one of the instances when they should have been very transparent, very open about it. We will not be here debating this issue if we are seeing a copy of the letter. If the Senate had confirmed to us that we see the letter, then the Speaker had also confirmed that we see the letter from the President. So all of this is just conjecture. And from the report that I read, it says that he had underdeveloped the Vice President and, of course, the SGF and others would assist him. I'm not sure the report said that they all will be in charge of the country together. So I think it's probably the way it was reported. The Vice President constitutionally is the person who takes charge after the President is out of the country on vacation. And then, of course, the government is a machinery of its own that people in the government would also assist. Nobody does work alone, like was rightly said by the President. So I do not think that he said underdeveloped power to the Vice President and this SGF and somebody else to run directly. I do not think that's what he meant, that's what the President said. But I would say that the Vice President, of course, is in charge. Whether or not a letter was transmitted, we cannot really say because we haven't seen it. And like I mentioned, the lack of transparency from this government is one of the things that has been a problem for the past six years and counting. So, legally speaking, if the Vice President is not empowered through a letter that's being transmitted to the National Assembly to authorize him to run the state of affairs, what exactly can he do? Well, I think the provisions of the constitution are quite clear. Section 5 of the constitution clearly bears the negative powers in the President. Of course, he can assign such functions to the Vice President or any other officer of government to carry out such activities. So I do not think, even if you look at Section 145 of the constitution, of course there's a window, there's 21 days, I mean, we're fairly in which he can now begin to commence a presidential impeachment. We've gone for about two weeks, that's about 14 days according to his aides. So I believe that we're not at that point where we can panic. There's no cost for alarm yet. And like I said, all of this is still basically conjecture. If tomorrow the presidential aides come out and issue the letter or the President confirms that he indeed received the letter, then our fears will have been taken care of. Professor, I'm going to propose the same question to you. Without this letter, what are the powers of the Vice President? Can we assume that he's piloting the affairs of the country with or without this letter? And I'm not saying that Nigeria is going to face anything tomorrow, but yes, we are facing a fuel crisis. And Nigerians are very angry at the fact that the President, who is, by the way, the Minister of Petroleum, has left the country and meets this crisis. Yes, most will say he's going to take care of his health, which is important. But what powers do the Vice President, what power does he wield as we speak without that letter? Well, take it from the point of what can he believe he has the letter. He can discharge all the functions of the President if he has the letter. But without the letter, he will be able to preside over meetings. He will be able to handle such other things as he has to do, that the President ordinarily ought to do. But functions and responsibilities that are assigned to the President, he cannot discharge those functions. Specifically, assigned by the President, he cannot discharge such functions without the letter transmitting presidential power to him. Now, the Civil Rights Advocacy Group, Human Rights Rights Association of Nigeria today, justifies the President for frequent medical trips overseas. Now, I'd like to quote them directly. In a statement by the national coordinator, Komarimano Omubiko, fought at the presidency. He perpetually travels to London for medical check-up while leaving the health sector in Nigeria to wobble and meet constant strikes and underfunding. And they also made mention of the medical tourism and the monies that we keep sending to the United Kingdom. Care to comment? Professor? Well, okay, Prof. Well, first, it's a democracy and everybody is entitled to his opinion. And as citizens, they are entitled to be concerned about what we are spending as a nation in the President's healthcare and the President's well-being. However, you elected your President. And if your President has heard challenges that in the opinion of his doctors and those who manage his health, they think that he can find solutions, nor the best solution available to the best approach to it is to find experts of assistance. Then it is part of what you began for, in voting for your President. It's sad every responsible country should do everything to ensure that all formal transactions and formal activities of the President are undertaken within the country. But that's not what you have. We have not been able to move our health facilities to that point. It's also a shame that we admit that by having our public functionaries, not only the President, the President, but also the Vice Governors and their aides, we have them all the time going overseas for treatment, which is a judgment on us, a verdict on us that we are not serious. We are not a serious country and we do not value our sovereignty. Expectedly, we should see things change from that direction and we should see the President and other government functionaries take their treatments here in Nigeria and educate their children here in Nigeria. Those are all votes of no confidence that public administrators have no interest and have no faith in what they are doing in the country. Let's hope that we will learn that and that we will improve in how we present ourselves for the international community. And when you say we will learn and we will improve, you make it seem like we have the powers to change it, because if you ask me, there have been protests. In fact, as we speak, there are several strikes, strike actions, the ones that are being threatened and the ones that are about to happen. And these strikes are coming as a result of the fact that there has been failure of government on several forums, whether it be education, transport, I mean, generally. So, if all of these strike actions, these conversations, these protests have not been able to yield or even arm-tweast our political leaders. And this is not just about President Buhari, but all our leaders subsequently who are very quick to go abroad. I mean, let's use, for example, the former Kwaibom state governor, Goswalo Bodakwabi, I think he said he built a state-of-the-art medical facility in the state. And he had a minor health issue and he flew out of the country. So, again, do we really have what it takes to get these people to do right by us? It's simple. First, whatever we need, whatever medical facilities that are available anywhere in the world can be bought and we have the way without to buy it. We can also create the condition for experts. We have the manpower here and our doctors are doing well overseas and doing fantastic things. So, we can create an enabling environment and bring the facilities that are required and they can do what they have to do here. So, the question, can we learn and can we improve? Yes. There's no reason why we shouldn't. But we have just not had that political will to do so. And we think it is normal to continue the way we are doing. And I believe that's why they have continued and they do not see anything wrong with it. Ayodeja, I want to bring you in here. Do you agree with the professor that we do not have the political will? But again, he made mention of the fact that we elected the president. There are lots of people who say that we did not elect the president. But whatever the case may be, our leaders are our leaders. They are in place. What is stopping us from getting our leaders to be accountable to us? Because every day we sit here and have this conversation. Some of us grumble on social media. But then nothing really changes year in, year out. And this is campaign season. They're about to come tell us new stories. So is it us that's the problem? Or is it the politicians? Well, I think I would love to start from the point of President Various made several trips abroad. And I would like to say categorically that it's my opinion that the president is very critical in that regard. Because if you all recollect, it was very, very vocal about other political leaders at the time going abroad for medical treatment. And he did promise that he would ensure that we impose the health sector and we would not engage in medical tourism. But of course, time has shown that that was just a mere promise. And several ships that he's undertaking abroad clearly have been there. Well, as it relates to whether or not the political will is there, I want to argue with Prof that yes, the political will is not there. But I also think that the large section of the population who actually determine who the voters are do not really care about some of these things that we are talking about. So some of them will say we are too elitist. We sit in the carpets of our offices, of our homes, and we theorize about politics and theorize about how the country should be. And why we're not exactly involved in grassroot politics. And as the saying goes, politics or politics is local. I'm not sure that many of the allies are belong to any political party or actively involved in any grassroots movement. So that's why we can't really owe them accountable. Because as you can see now, some of the political actors are going from palace to palace, from state to state, paying homage and doling and whatever they need to get the job done. I do not see this as an active drive from the civil society from other interested political actors. We are campaigning against some of these electoral practices that would likely occur. So there really needs to be some form of activism from the allies. We can't just sit down on social media and don't just complain about it. We need to be more involved in it. For instance, now we have people amongst us, when I say us, I mean those of us working class, allies with the academia in other professions, who just think that the best option is to leave the country, travel to Canada, travel to Australia, leave the country for these politicians to continue to rule. But unless we actually realize that we all have a stake in this country, the country will not move forward. And you can see that at the account with citizens who are living, who are either studying or residing in Ukraine, all of a sudden overnight they became refugees. And that's what happens when you don't develop your own country. So we all need to, you know, get down to it together and not just leave it to the politicians. But for instance, if I take you to the electoral act, there's a lot required for financing elections, campaign materials. I mean, you know what it takes to undergo a tour of Nigeria, Nigeria is a very vast country. You have somebody who has done about eight to nine or ten states. So a total of the country is a lot of money that is required and those money needs to be recouped as well. So we also need to put our money where our amount is. We also need to add account fund or, you know, get people who are actively involved. People have integrity in these things. People have a stake in the nation, not just to leave it to the old men. I mean, someone has already said that we have eight years. He will do his own eight years and then we youths can come back and do it hours after. So that's some confidence that he has. And that confidence is not just because he is just saying it. He's done the homework and he believes that going by his own calculations, he will do eight years there. So we need to be more involved in the process. Prof, let me come back to you. Let's piggyback a bit on the issue of corrupt practices, which will be my second topic for today. But let's look at the outright disobedience of the Constitution or the rule of law in this country, especially by this government. The many times that we've seen the federal government led by President Buhari pick and choose what laws to obey, just as Ayadeji has said, the president being hypocritical in terms of this issue of health and health medical tourism. For someone who had campaigned that he was going to put an end to corruption and plug all the loopholes, someone who said he was going to fight insecurity. And from what we see, what really feels all of these conflicts and crises at the bottom of it or at the core of it is corruption. Why do you think that this government, the one that was touted as the messiah of Nigeria, seems to be the one who's breaking most of the rules, if not all of them? Well, first, I think we have come to terms with the fact in this country that campaign time is campaign time, and that you will hear our manner of 84 years, and that governments, it's a different budget. Our experience in this direction has been consistent over the years. We've had difficult to cite instances where campaign promises were pushed with the seriousness are kept. The way they were made at the times of campaign. That's it. I'd like to, for myself, say that I think that the candidate that was voted in the first term was not exactly the candidate we eventually got. I believe that after the major health issue that the president had, and I must say, in all my age, I have not read any day of the president. But after that, the blood transmission time. Oh, I think we're having a connection issue there with you, Prof. Unfortunately, you're breaking. I'm going to see if we can get Ayodeji to quickly attempt that until we can get the Prof back. Ayodeji. Well, I think what Prof was trying to say is that the promises that were made in 2015, I mean 2014-2015, which made Nigerians to overwhelmingly, I would say that overwhelmingly, the president was putted into office, because a lot of Nigerians at the time were very disappointed with the presidency of Ibele Junota. And that still remains a fact, no matter how much we try to revive this history. It was a general trend. It did its best, but it wasn't good enough at the time. So when we went, President Biden was elected, it was elected with several promises. Everybody had high hopes, thinking that this had to corruption Caesar, this Messiah would not allow corruption to thrive in this country anymore. But what we have seen, I mean, is a far cry from what we expected. Although I wouldn't say that the president has failed entirely. There have been a lot of infrastructure developments all over Nigeria as well. I mean, it can give that to the president, even though some will say that he was commenced under President Junota. But you've seen that he's gone ahead to finish some of these things. He didn't abandon them, like the mother governor's or other people, or these professors would do. They abandoned and had their own. But he finished up all of these things and there are a lot of gains that he has recorded. But as soon as there are promises, I mean, easily you find them on Twitter, you find those slogans, those banners that were held up in 2015, that will make one dollar to one for something. Are you happy with Nigeria? Are you happy with the bag of rice? The cost of the bag of rice? Are you happy with everything? But it looks like it's worse than we expected. And I think every reasonable Nigeria was true to himself or herself. This has done its best, but the best is not good enough. So it's campaign season now. We are going to have a lot of promises in the next 12 months. From all and sundry, everybody wants to put their hat in the ring and try to buy for the office. But I know that Nigeria is really a very tough country to govern in terms of what we've seen over the years. The best men have tried and failed. They all keep mentioning and referring to a cabal. That cabal has remained nameless over the years. So I think anybody that wants to be president needs to have the determination to break this cabal. And the question that you need to ask is, can anybody be compensated on this country without the cabal support? Like I said, the cabal is nameless and it's useless, but they all seem to agree that it's a cabal. So we are the messy of these politicians. And like I said, unless we get actively involved in the process and stop, you know, arm-check criticism and modification, we need to get involved and start at the grassroots level. Try and mobilize some of this, I wouldn't say illiterate, but people who are not politically savvy, people who have voted for 3,000 error. But Ayodeji, it's interesting that you made mention of these people who are not as politically savvy as you and I. Half the time, those of us who are in the second class or middle class, seem to be the ones who sit at home and, like you say, pontificate and never really show up to vote. But these guys that you think are illiterate when it comes to the electoral process, they come out unmasked, whether they're paid or not, they show up to vote. So does that not make us look bad one way or the other? So when we say we all have to get involved, how do we get involved? Those of us who are in the middle class, what exactly do you think is the pushback? Are we so comfortable with just sitting down and mummering or making excuses? Well, I think that the reason why we're very comfortable or why we're very laid back is because some of us have some economic buffer that allows us to get away with a few things. Do we? I'm sure that you're also affected by the fuel scarcity, so is there any buffer for that? So I'll tell you something. You have those that don't sell in black markets. Anybody in the middle class who has some money to spend would easily get a black market for 7000 EUR. Now those poor people can't do that. They can't afford it. They need to line up and queue at the finish station. They don't have the luxury of being able to pass with some money and buy black markets and fuel jerry cans and move on with their lives. Some of us can do that and pay our way through the inconvenience. These people do not have the luxury of paying their way through the inconvenience. So they are there at the market stores. They are there. They are finding it difficult to even feed because things are expensive. Some of us are not sure how much a bag of rice is or how much you even know how much a bag of rice is now. But these people don't know how much a cup of rice is. They know how it has increased exponentially. They know how much Gary is now. I'm not sure if you know how much a cup of rice is. So what I'm saying is at the middle class, we are able to pay our way through some of these things and not be bothered about it. So we just throw money at it and move on. Back to you Prof. Apologies that we had that break in the communication. Quickly, let's look at the timing of the president's travel and just go drawing from what Ayodeji has been saying. The timing of this travel, there's a lot of groaning and grinding of teeth in the country right now. First it was the case of adulterated fuel and then now we don't even see the fuel to buy. And just as Ayodeji said, a few people can afford the black market but I mean the timing of this move by Mr. President plus the fact that power has not necessarily been transmitted even though it's two weeks, a lot can happen in two weeks. How insensitive is this? And really looking at the situation of things, where do we really go from here because it looks like it's going from bad to worse? What would clearly and easily have said is absolutely insensitive especially if it is not pressing and if it is something that he could have done after this time. Just when it bothers on health and if there are timelines and dates to be kept in medical transactions, it's a bit difficult to pass judgment. So if it is a necessary medical check on a timeline on the existing timeline from previous troubles then to be difficult to authority say that he was completely insensitive otherwise the timing is wrong. But while the President was here before he went for his medical trip was still yet to hear anything concrete from the President on this issue being that he holds that office, he decided to keep that office to himself and so every finger should point to Mr. President shouldn't it? Exactly. I was going to say so that as Petroleum Minister this would be an insensitive time to travel if it is not a necessary medical trip that is necessary to be an insensitive time to do so. There may not be very pressing things in another area but this one rests on his table and why is Petroleum Minister if you clearly be insensitive except if it has the defense of explaining that it's a necessary appointment that is a necessary follow-up from other previous medical trips on which we spent money so that it doesn't become wasted money that would be the only defense. Finally before I let you go gentlemen have we learned do you think the Nigerians are tired enough to be sensible as to how we pick our next set of leaders or do we just you know keep making more space in the wall as we're being pushed to it? I do not think we have shown evidence of good learning. We have had a lot of lessons over the years but not quite translated them into useful experience that results in decisions that we can see from our actions. So I think we have not shown enough understanding of the experience we have had and what we should have learned from that. Do we expect much? I do not expect much. All I can say is that the new electoral act makes some promises and has some openings which if we utilize them well I'm sure we'll need to improve the kind of choice our decision will make. Let's always remind ourselves even when it looks like there is nothing we can do. We must always ask ourselves why do they buy up our cards? Why do they buy up our PVCs at that time? If what we do with the PVC is not useful. I think there is a lot of work to be done to change the psyche of the people and we assure them that look you can make decisions by effectiveness of your card. If we do sufficient sensitization we will be able to get some positive results. Thank you very much Prof Ayadeji before we go quickly. Well I think I want to agree with Prof that we need to buckle down to it. Somebody's television is on. Can you turn off your TV please? So we need to get involved in the process actively. We need to get involved at the grassroot level and not just continue to like I said give our own theories about how this can work. We need to be involved and I think that all people at the middle class, upper class Nigerians need to finance and fund these grassroot movements to satisfy those who actually sell their goods. If our PVCs are not important they won't be buying it. They won't be sharing rice and sharing oil and money on electricity. It's because the vote actually counts. We can't just sit down in our houses and use the electricity as a due to rest. It should be a day to be out there on the streets to take back our government. And I think that's what we should do. Well I want to say thank you to Prof Richard Wokochahi who is a Prof of Public Law at the River Stage University and Ayadeji Awobide is a legal practitioner. Thank you so much gentlemen for being part of the conversation. Thank you for having me. Thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break now and when we return, former President Alusha Gorbasin just states that some of the presidential aspirants are supposed to be in prison. We'll get to find out why. Stay with us.