 This is JSA TV and JSA Podcasts, the newsroom for telecom and data center professionals. I'm Carl Sketchley, and on behalf of the team here at JSA, welcome to our October virtual round table. As we continue to battle through the global pandemic, the security of our financial networks is becoming more critical than ever. As a result, for the next 45 minutes, we have assembled some of the brightest minds in the industry who are going to take us through the current state of network security for global banking and investments, as well as the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead. For those of you who are in the group of first 100 registrants for today, please enjoy your lunch, or if you chose a gift card to a local restaurant. As always though, thank you to all of our viewers for continuing to tune into our round tables. Just before we begin, as usual, we want to hear from you. So go ahead and type your questions into the chat. Time permitting, we will answer them here. But of course, in the last 15 minutes of the hour, we will take the conversation over to LinkedIn. Just search for hashtag JSA virtual round tables or simply click on the direct link that we will be sharing in the chat box shortly. Once there, we will cover any of the questions that our panelists don't get a chance to answer within the next 45 minutes. If you would like to register for upcoming virtual round tables, simply visit jsa.net. Our next one is titled best practices for partnerships in next-gen network infrastructure, and that will take place on November 12th at 1 p.m. Eastern. Check it out and register. Now, let's get started. Today's topic, the state of financial networks. To introduce our speakers and moderate, please welcome Charles Dessage, managing partner at Cambridge MC. Charles, thank you for joining us today. The floor is yours. Thank you very much, Carl. I'm very happy to moderate this very impressive panel on this such exciting subject today. So part of the panel, we have Gil Santaliz, CEO of New Jersey Fiber Exchange. Mike Persico, CEO of ANOVA Financial Network and Sujit Panda, CTIO of BDX data centers. So before they introduce themselves, I just want to remind the subject. So yes, we are talking about the state of financial network. And this is more critical than ever in this specific period of pandemia that we are all experiencing worldwide. That's the first time this is happening. And of course, the transactions are going exponentially. While they are done remotely on high-curve, are of course more tempted. So I would like each of you Gil, Sujit and Mike, to introduce yourself. But I will also ask the first question now if you don't mind. Because today, you see we are within this current state. Network security is very important, especially for global banking and investment. And I would like to have your point of view at what are the challenges or opportunities would lie ahead on this point of view. So maybe, Gil, if you don't mind, if you could start, introduce yourself or maybe I'll take that question. Sure, so it's Gil Santaliz. First of all, Charles, thank you for having me and JSA appreciate putting on this round table for us to have a chance to collaborate because we do miss collaborating and having this opportunity is important to kind of exchange ideas. NGFX is the only cable landing station in the US that is carrier neutral with multiple subsea cables and now 26 plus network providers that exchange traffic in North America from traffic learn from South America and from Europe, they have four subsea cables. To answer your question, it's been a wake up call for the financial industry seven months ago when their associates went home. And there's been some winners and losers in terms of how they transitioned from this new work at home environment, specifically on the security side, it's been a challenge because a lot of them have large data centers. They do have some adaptation to the cloud, but primarily I would say for the large multinational financial institutions, they have their own facilities and now the employees aren't in the buildings that used to connect to those facilities. So they've had to re-orchestrate their network and that's provided a whole list of security issues for them in terms of how do they authenticate folks coming into their network. As we know, banks have multiple lines of business. It's not just trading. It's all kinds of financial transactions and it's really the trust business they're in. So security is paramount. Their customers have to trust them and the transaction that they do are important because they're trusted transactions. So I think I'm curious to hear from the rest of our panelists as well in terms of how they see this unfolding, but the number one priority banks have is to be trusted in a secure transaction environment. Thank you very much, Kio. Mike, would you like to introduce yourself and also continue on that question? Sure. Mike Persico, founder and CEO of ANOVA Financial Networks. And for those of you that don't know, we're an international carrier explicitly for the electronic trading community. So our MO is to connect the world's liquidity centers and if they're already connected, then to optimize those connections. We do that through fiber medium and also wirelessly. And so we have a big footprint in not only the U.S., but also expanding over into Asia. And so a lot of our customers are data center centric, but I certainly can touch on what it means to work and trade from home. And I'll share an interesting story, but I first wanna talk about really what we saw right after the pandemic hit, which was people rushed to increase their internet connectivity because they were going to VPN people in from home and the backbone circuits just weren't enough to take in all of these. If you think about how many people work at a Morgan Stanley or JPM or someone like that, that's a lot of people coming into the home office to hit their trading screens that are then connected to the exchange data centers. And so it was a capacity issue before it was a security issue. And then the security became sort of, I think some of the more industry accepted VPN, which to be honest with you is fallible. The types of home security that have been prevalent never took into account the increased requirements of trading. They certainly had that in their home office or in their main office, but people didn't have it in their home office. And so what we found after that when it became apparent that not only was it kind of somewhat insecure, but it might not even meet regulatory standards, we saw a move to people install point to point circuits to their homes. So to get off the public internet and go on to private dedicated circuits. And what we, the humorous part of this was Long Island is we are a lot of the New York traders went, they had homes up there for those of you that don't know it's two and a half hours east on a good day by car. And so we saw an uptick in the public point to point circuits from Manhattan from their desks where they used to sit to now their Long Island home. So one gig dedicated fiber circuits so they didn't have to be on the internet. And so that's kind of a sign of the times. And it remains to be seen how many of those traders go back into the office and for how many people this is what it's gonna look like in perpetuity. Thank you very much. That's very interesting. Sujit, you are in India, I believe, Mumbai. Mumbai currently, yeah. Thank you for having me here. Thanks to you and the JSE team for putting up this round table. I'm Sujit Panda, I'm the CTIO of BDX. BDX is an Asian data center platform which we've kind of recently, that's not a startup from if you look at the EBITDA that we have currently, but yes, the entire team is a brand new team. We've come together to create a new kind of data center platform and kind of challenging the incumbents in most of the markets that we operate in. It's an interesting region to be operating in. We operate in China. We operate, we've got massive facilities in China. We've got two very large facilities in Hong Kong. We have a facility in Singapore. So when the pandemic actually stuck, we're kind of right in the middle of it, right? So it's a kind of a perfect storm for us. So the good part, I'll talk about the good part and the bad part both. So the good part was before we started BDX because BDX is basically grown inorganically, right? So the first thing that we had done when we created the platform is what's the kind of unique thing that we're trying to do in the data center industry? And what we decided is that we would want to have minimally manned data centers, right? Trying to look at how do we automate some of the functions that a data center does, right? So as part of that, you know, MO, the entire focus was trying to get, you know, have a central kind of a knock so as to speak, which kind of is the humming center wherein all the platforms are being managed from, right? So that's the good part. The bad part is, yeah, the humming center so as to say, you've centralized a lot of functions. That's also going to be hit by the pandemic, right? So how do you actually look at, you know, some of the things that we try to do? How do you keep most of the critical facilities running without any downtime, right? How do you help customers? Because, you know, when you're a very large data center with some of the largest banks in the world operating out of your facilities, how do you support them when they can't get their people in there, right? And they are seeing a massive surge in requirements, massive surge in compute, massive surge in bandwidths. How do you do that, right? You can't get their people there and your people are not able to travel back into the facility. So how do you do it? And that's where the digital investments have paid off in some parts and we did a lot of learnings in terms of what we need to do. And the good thing is, you know, we operate on a Jan to December kind of financial year. We do over, we start the AOP thing here. And this is the first time that my CEO walks in and says, hey, you know, you need to ramp up your digital investments, right? Every year, I used to be asked questions like you need to justify every dollar that you're spending, right? And now it's okay. And here he comes, walks in and says, you know, tell me, how are you actually getting everything digital? So there's no question of an ROI anymore. The pandemic has proved that ROI. That's the good part. Okay, okay. Thank you very much. My suggestion and give for your introductions and the question answer. I'd like to go to another question related to your customers and of course, related to the subject is what do you, do your customers today in this context, the financial world works more than anything else? Or maybe related to that one, what do you wish your customers knew? So I don't know, maybe I'll start with Gil again. Sure. So I wish my customers really understood how our industry works. There was only very few financial customers that take the time to understand how their routes work from their facilities to their destinations. But for example, there's cables that cross the Mediterranean and there's single points of failures, for example, in the Suez Canal, but there is an option that if they took the time to understand they could work with a company called Sparkle, a new cable called BlueMed and that allows them to bypass that one pinch point. The day that that problem happens, there'll be very few banks that will transact in a normal fashion. And the ones that didn't pay attention will have some issues. There's lots of issues like this across the US, along the I-95 corridor. People aren't familiar, but most of the traffic that goes from New York down to Ashburn finds itself going over the same exact bridge. And there's only very few financials that have taken the time to look at alternate paths. There's a new cable being developed, for example. It's gonna go from our building in New Jersey down to Virginia, Myrtle Beach to Florida. It's gonna be along the coast. And there's two banks that are currently gonna be on that system. I can't imagine the banks that don't go on that system the day that you have a problem going down I-95. So I guess what banks I wish they knew was I wish they took the time to understand our industry and not just buy from a brochure, buy from a sales person presenting lots of process services, but to take the time to know their routes and know how it actually works so they can ensure their reliability will always be there. Super, thanks for that. Very interesting. Mike, on the same question? You know, what do my clients want more than anything? Volume and volatility. And so, you know, it's been interesting because for the first six months they had both of those in spades. And there was, you know, the first half of the year was the best trading year in the past 10 and probably since 08. And so now things have cooled down since then, since mid-year. And we're seeing a lot of people kind of waiting with bated breath until the election, which we do expect to be some of the heaviest traded volume in recent years as well. So, you know, for, by all accounts, you know, it's that this has been, you know, a better year on those, from those aspects, from a volume and volatility aspect. But, you know, what I wish they knew is that, you know, it's difficult to be an infrastructure provider. You know, we compete at the nanosecond level. You know, that's how decisions are being made. And, you know, Suji, you talk about return on investment and it's easy to justify returns in my business if you're getting milliseconds, you know, for this improvement. But how do you justify the last nanosecond? And frankly, what's the value of it? And so, you know, Gil, you talk about buying off a brochure or, you know, in our world, it's buying off numbers, you know, and numbers that are, you know, two or three decimal point, after the decimal point, right? And so, you know, that takes CapEx investment. That takes constant redesign and deployment of new technologies. And it's not a snap of the fingers. There's a ton of R&D that go into this. Now, having said this, I don't want to sound like I'm crying into my milk because we love what we do. It's exciting. It's challenging. We're on the bleeding edge. You know, maybe a pat on the back every once in a while. Might be nice, you know. So, but that's my answer. Thanks. Okay, thank you very much, Mike. Sugit, your answer. I'm looking, we are looking old for your answer. Yeah, so, you know, what I think, you know, when we look at security, but what I want my customers to understand is, you know, typically I've seen customers being very focused on one thing, cyber security, right? How do I stop an attack from happening? And one of the things that I keep saying is, guys, what are your purposes, right? If it is going to happen, it will happen, right? So instead of focusing on one piece of the continuum, which is, you know, the perimeter, right? Which is, you know, how to stop an attack, start looking at what do you do when you are under an attack and what do you do after an attack, right? Start looking at all the three pieces. And when you look at the plan, in terms of when you try to create a cyber plan, a cyber security plan, don't just look at how do I prevent an attack from happening. Because, you know, I've seen attack surfaces changing. So, so much, right? Technology has brought in, and especially the pandemic, and I think everybody would agree when we put everybody at home, I think Gil spoke about it when we put Wi-Fi's, you know, running from the home. You know, I think Mike spoke about the fact that, you know, people want to get off the internet and just start to look at point-to-point links. All of this was focused on a couple of things. It's trying to make things less latency sensitive. It's trying to look at getting off the internet, right? So security was one of the concerns. Latency was the other concern, right? But what do you do when you are under attack irrespective of whether what you are doing? Because when you look at the work from home scenario, the entire thing, the entire perspective has changed. So I call this a cyber resiliency instead of cyber security, right? And the way we have worked with our customers is that we looked at, we had a product which was BDX Armor, right? So, and I, when I went to talk to my financial customers, typically, and we have got some of the, among the top five banks, we have two of the largest banks in the globe sitting inside of data centers. And when I talk to them, they say, hey guys, you know what? You don't talk about these. We've got the best security professionals, right? And nothing can enter our network. And I'm not supposed to be speaking about it, but I've seen some of these best protected networks getting impacted, right? And one of the things that I keep talking to on a peer level is it is going to get impacted. You're going to get impacted. Better start looking at when you are under attack, what will you do? So cyber resiliency is something that I keep kind of pushing my customers to understand a little bit more instead of just preventing attacks. Yeah, and it's a big subject because this is going by, this is part of the subject and the finances especially is going really fast. Why? Because there's something to do. There's money to get out of it. And if you're not protected against that, it's crazy. And the experience I have in this base, from Europe, you know, I would say that the large companies, the large organizations, maybe are protected, okay. But the small and medium ones, no, they are not protected. And if they get attacked, even the finance or small ones, they lose everything. They lose their business and they can close their business. And that's absolutely key. Okay, thank you very much. My next question is, I think I will combine two questions actually. It is what is the most exciting development change you see for the past six months or this year? Or also what is the most adventurous thing you or your company have done during this time? So maybe that's why we are together, but do you want to start with this one? Yeah, it was a complete paradigm change for us. In terms of, you know, the most adventurous thing, that's a very exciting question. You know, we kind of gave out notification to all of them by saying that, you know, work from home is permanent now. You decide where you want to work from, right. And this is not just because, you know, we felt it is in fashion. But the first thing that we realized is that because we have a centralized knock, a centralized way of putting all our management infrastructure at one single place. And then the pandemic had the engineers have to operate out of home, right. So what do you do, right? So, you know, we took a decision that we will ensure that we set up a practice which is knock with all the engineers operating from the residents, right. So we shipped out, you know, pre-built kits, right. Saying that this is the kit that goes out. This is how you connect to us. This is how you ensure security. And by doing that, we ensure that we provided office-like environment at the residents. So, you know, once, and we're still under lockdown, by the way, right. I'm in India, the DR is going to be in Singapore. The primary site is in India and that's in Mumbai. And Mumbai is under lockdowns. People are operating from homes. So the thing was when we took that decision, you know, a lot of people questioned us. We're trying to say that you're an essential service is being operated out of people's residences. What about the security? We said, you've talked to this, right. And touch with this one very well. And not just with respect to, you know, the technology piece, but with respect to the psychological aspect of it. You know, one of the big things that I have learned personally when we look at work from home is that it's not just about the technology. It's also about the psychological impact for work from home people, right. So we look at both of this in one type of innovative ways and that's an adventurous thing that we've done. Okay, thank you very much. Mike, do you want to answer those questions? Shall I read them? Sure, so the first part was what was the most interesting thing in the last six months and the second part was? I don't know. The first part was the most exciting. Even the most interesting. The second one was the most adventurous thing you or your company have done during this time. So what you've seen, what you've done. Exciting, both. Yeah, you know, for us, for me personally, we always felt, you know, this is my self and the management team. This is our third company that we've been a part of that we've built from the ground up. And our mentality was a little old school. We believed that everybody needed to be in a central location. That was how you established morale and generated a culture and had a confluence of expertise, you know, and this was very traditional. We weren't alone in espousing this perspective. And our big concern was what happens when you take that away, you know, do people still feel like they're part of something? You know, will the morale remain high? What is your culture then as an organization if you're all disassociated? And then, of course, what happens to productivity? Can people still be as productive if they're working from home in their PJs? You know, and what we found was, is that we were pleasantly surprised. We had serious reservations about doing this. There were challenges. How do you get accounting set up to work remotely when they're inherently kind of a very cloistered organization? So you have to put, you know, very sensitive files up, you know, in an external fashion so people have access to them. But besides that, you know, it was more about culture morale and productivity. And what we found is that people responded very well. And, you know, there are some folks that we don't think will come back and we're more amenable to letting them do that, you know, as a going concern than we ever were. Now you have the flip side of someone who's younger, they live in an apartment, they stay as roommates, and so they work in their bedroom, they sleep in their bedroom, they go eat their meals in their bedroom and they live in 100 square feet. So they were dying for me to reopen the office. And so we ended up being 50-50, you know, in terms of people who come back and who happened. But, you know, my takeaway with all of this is that ultimately our productivity stated high. You find different ways to connect to keep your morale and culture up. And the question is, is can you, how long can that continue? I recall Anderson Consulting went to an old remote model and it lasted for great until about year two. And then people became very disaffected and disillusioned and went back to a more traditional environment. That's what they were looking for. And so, is this, you know, a different scenario, a different situation, perhaps, but long-term, I question if it can remain this way. Yeah, I thought the question, because this is happening, as we said, this is happening everywhere, for every company, every sector, globally, worldwide. The issue is, what's going to be the next step? Because, okay, it works. As you say, productivity works, we can work remotely, we can work from home, we can work from everywhere. At the same time, this is not replacing the real interactivity between people. Look what we are doing right now. Okay, we are doing this exercise. It's great, it works. But of course we would prefer to be in the same room. We would prefer to do that. So it's a little different. So it's a question also against isolation. And we speak about that also, I think, in many countries. But anyway, Gil, I would like to have your point of view on this, on those questions. We at NJFX started the initiative before COVID started about getting young people involved in our industry. We started at PTC with Millennials and Telcom and Felix Sade and our team did a great job in having that first session. Once COVID started, there was a concern that we would stop. And I'm proud to say that our team never stopped. We've got Felix Sade, Sarah Kurtz, they've been actively involved with groups such as Suboptic, working with JSA and doing programs for high schools locally. A lot of folks have looked for leadership during this time. And what my team is able to do is continue at an effort to inspire young people to look at our industry because now it's imperative that we have the next generation ready to go. So we've got a whole pipeline of young folks that we're trying to attract to come into the industry. We went as far as even hiring an intern this summer that we never met. The intern worked for us from Washington DC, never came to the office. She did a phenomenal job for us. In terms of exciting things, the most exciting thing that I've seen that we're a part of is, we've gotten the cable companies, the residential IP providers, to start coordinating at NJFX and offer their access networks to multinational banks, to universities, to hospitals. The whole issue of the internet is that I don't know where it goes. I don't, it's a best effort network. But if you can eliminate hops by having the residential IP providers interconnect with your customers, you all of a sudden have private networks. So I'm happy to say, Verizon announced that they're being a customer in a pop at NJFX for a huge provider in the U.S. in terms of residential IP, not only on home services, but on cell phone services as well. Altice is here, Comcast is on its way. So we have a massive amount of residential IP and we've got IX providers as D-Kicks that are coordinating the ISPs. So that the enterprise and financials can have better connectivity to their associates that are now at home. Thank you. Congratulations for Verizon. Thank you. Congratulations. Well, yes, that was great. Okay, so my next question actually is what challenges on opportunity lie ahead, particularly, of course, during these uncertain times. On which challenges are you most excited to face? And actually, Gil, if you could go after that. You know, I think everyone realizes diversity, network diversity is paramount and we now have in the financial markets, everyone paying attention. We spend a lot of time with the bank explaining who the carriers are. The biggest challenge is that they don't have MSAs. So we'll have a large multinational bank move in. They only know how to work with four providers. We've got to find smaller companies that are limble enough that have MSAs in place and can take these unique solutions, put them on their paperwork and allow these banks to give advantage of the best network architecture possible. I think that's gonna be important going forward. That's what these banks need to see. We need to provide better solutions, better transparency in how these networks really operate, but with the final way for these large multinational banks to be able to execute their agreements. And we're working with companies, there's a NOVA, for example, to kind of see if that makes sense. If they have those relationships, they have those MSAs, could they perhaps work with our strategic network providers, pull together a solution and satisfy the bank's requirements. We're gonna do a lot more of that and I think that's the next chapter. They need to know how things work. It can't be, get online. I can't give you an answer today. They need clarity on their networks. Okay, thank you very much, Gil. Mike, if you could answer that question as well. What's your point of view? Mike, your view can see. Funny story about bank MSAs, when we first started doing this 11 years ago, we were in front of Avenue of America's bank. And I said, how long did you do an MSA? And he said, well, how long to give birth? And I said, oh, labor lasts 24, 36 hours if it's a bad one, right? And they met nine months, right? And it took 14, right? So, that's a very real thing. And sometimes what we see is, you may have to partner. If you wanna provide services to a large multinational corporation and you don't have an MSA, the quickest way to revenue, the quickest way to provide that solution is to partner with someone who does. Because the doors aren't open to do new ones. Nobody wants to spend those cycles. And by nobody, I mean them. And so, that's a real challenge. And so I know what you're saying, Gil, in terms of trying to present these diversity options when the number of people you can go to are somewhat limited. But in regards to challenges, what we see is, we have three legs of the stool or three arms of the triangle and it's latency, availability and capacity. And now, there's been a fourth one introduced which is security. And so, the challenge here is how do you satisfy four masters? And to us, it's difficult to focus on all of them at once. You almost have to force rank them. But the second that you do that and you decide that one is more important than the others, then you have a contingent of clients that are disaffected with that choice. If you say latency is the most important, other people may say capacity, I need capacity. Or if you focus on availability, other people may say, but yes, the whole topic of this panel is security. We need that because my traders are never coming back to work. So what are you doing to focus on that as a company? And so, three masters was difficult. Four is a challenge, right? And it's about being smart with your investment and your R&D dollars and spreading it across all of those aspects to make sure that you're progressing your products across all of those lines. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mike. I will come back to you on the partnership side on the next question. But I want to have the point of view. Should it? I think, you know, Mike, about a very important thing, you know, the number of legs on a stool is increasing, right? So, the way I look at this is that, you know, when we look at any problem, right, what is that we want to focus on? So, and that's the significant change that we look at. We look at any situation that is going to happen and we look at do we react to the situation or do we react to the people? So, we look at, we react to our customers. So, when we look at that aspect, you know, what's not going to change? I, the pandemic happened, everybody asked me, what's changed? I would say, what's not changing? So, Mike, both of us point out, right? Is the diversity in network going to change? Is the customer's requirement for diversity in the network? You know, the customer's saying that I want all, I want you to give me all the four things that the stool is made of or five things or six things as we go forward. So, what is that we focus on? We focus on the things that are not going to change. Network resiliency, right? Security, right? And infrastructure resiliency. When I look at a data center, what do you want? Infrastructure resiliency in terms of the facility and power, you need good security, whether it is the physical security, whether the perimeter security, the way the car comes inside the building, you need good security. And the third piece is connectivity. So from a connectivity standpoint, I think what the first thing that we looked at is, you know, our customers can now connect to networks through software, right? We frontend the MSA. It's a trust-based relationship that we've set up. For example, in Hong Kong, we've got the carriers inside and say, hey guys, we're going to be standing, you know, any contract that you're entering is with us. Don't worry about it. We will stand in capacity. If it increases, decreases, don't worry about it. I've got a customer and if he needs more capacity, you don't worry about the billing challenges. We will take care of it. We will stand guard for that. So, security, you know, we looked at how do we provide right from the physical security to the IT security to actually sitting with our customers and trying to consult with them in terms of what we can do for them, right? So, that's been the challenging piece, the trying to get our customers to understand our viewpoint in terms of what we think is right, right? And they might not agree, right? So, trying to get in consultatives more with them and trying to help them understand our point of view has been the most challenging thing. The good part about this, where there is a challenge, there is an opportunity. We've been security, you know, if I look at numbers, right? We have seen the sales numbers increasing going through the roof from the security side, right? People have asked for, you know, connectivity solutions. People have asked for, you know, using shared VPN services. People have asked for endpoint security because they want to kind of connecting to their assets all over the internet. We have an SDVAN gateway. People, it's kind of, we have increased our SDVAN gateway, sizing three X times from March till the last upgrade happened last month. Three X times SDVAN gateway size. So we've seen everything increasing because there was a challenge. We responded well, so we're making, I shouldn't use the word because it looks a little, you know, these are not the best of times. We made money out of it, but yes, because we responded for the challenge. Okay, super, super excited. I'm just conscious of time. I'm just telling you we have six minutes left. We have three more questions that could be okay. So, Mike, we were talking about partnership. And my question, quite open question, see whose partner in style do you admire and whose partner in style do you admire? Actually, that's my question. If you can hear me. Yes, yes, I can hear you. Who's partnering style do I admire? You know, you know, it's partnerships are usually, they're meant to be two-way streets, but good ones are hard to find. They usually end up being quite unilateral. And so sometimes we say, when someone says we want to partner, we say, so you know, you want us to give you a lot and we get little in return. You know, so my point is, is that they're difficult to find. You know, and so off the top of my head, you know, we do see some of the really big carriers though, being more and more willing to use offer their products in conjunction with our niche offerings. I'll give you an example. You take a transatlantic provider who takes their capacity and then they use our wireless on either end, right? In the United States and in, you know, Europe. And so some of the people that are offering those types of services, we're seeing them be more flexible than ever. And the reason is, is because, you know, they don't offer our niche services and we don't have a cable under the sea, right? So it's a bit of a forced marriage, but you know, at least they're becoming, they're getting to the point where they understand that they can't be the end to end underlying carrier. And we appreciate that flexibility. And we think that that's a good thing for the future. Okay, thank you very much. Jean, the point of view on this. Yeah, Mike's right. It's all about the structure of the deal. If you have a relationship where your parties are complimentary, it's gonna work. So in our case, we make it, make it as a business, we do not compete with our customers. So right off the bat, we're in great shape. We want our customers to be successful. We're carrier-neutral. Our jobs, they get the best carriers we can to offer the best solutions possible and make sure they all know each other. We consider ourselves a tinder of telecom. We're trying to make sure that everyone knows who's with us. And able to execute. And at the same time too, to provide our community assistance, we make sure that we believe what the carriers are saying they're gonna do, Mike. And we try to help flesh that out. So our role is really just to be that platform where they can meet, be able to execute their relationship and then get out of their way, let them do what they do best. Okay, thank you. Sugit very quickly, please, because I have one last question and I think we're gonna be running out of time. So what's your point of view on this on partnering style? I think it's important for a data center operator to understand that the cloud providers are not competing with you. They're complementary, right? Most of our customers have part of their assets in our data centers and the part of their assets on the cloud side. So we'll have to look at ways and means of ensuring that this hybrid ecosystem is available to them all the time. So if there is some elasticity that we need in terms of requirement, how do we take that elasticity without the disruption to the Amazon cloud, right? For example, right? So I kind of like the partnership style if I may, Amazon is a great company, right? So one of the things that I like about them is the customer focus. What we want to do is emulate the kind of customer sensitivity that they bring to the table. So that's been something that we have focused on majorly. How do we help our customers elastically get to the cloud, right? And that could be multiple of clouds. The multi-cloud environment is there to stay, right? So that's been our focus area. Okay, thank you. So I have one last question for you. Actually, it was two, but I wish combined one. So how do you keep focus in this uncertain world? But actually, maybe related, what keeps you awake? So maybe you want to start, what keeps you awake today? Tonight maybe, I don't know. So, you know, security, obviously, if you want to get professionally speaking, security is one of the key things, you know, I keep telling when we talk to our peers, when we talk to our colleagues, the biggest thing that keeps me awake is what's going to happen tomorrow, right? I don't know. I've seen so many things in such a short period of time that, you know, I keep fretting about things that people think is so natural, whether it's the physical access card, whether it is the facial recognition that we get and then we get, walk into a data hall. I kind of think that everything is going to be an alien invasion, right? That keeps me awake. Okay, thank you very much. Mike, what keeps you awake in this uncertain world? Charles, I think we lost Mike. So why don't we hear from Gil? We lost Mike, okay, but Gil, what keeps you awake? You can tell maybe about Mike, what keeps him awake? I don't know. I think so we, Mike and I are all in a similar business. We're in a critical asset business, critical infrastructure and we've had to have our employees continue to work throughout this pandemic and take guards to try and help them be able to safely here at the offices and coordinate their duties. But this pandemic taking a turn for the worst could be catastrophic. At the end of the day, it's about people that have to make the machines work and have the equipment run. And if we had a wider scale pandemic where this truly became a problem, call it next year, my biggest fear is that we would lose staff and the staff we have are highly trained. They're very specific and we need to keep them safe and make sure we have resources for them. So yes, it's the people. These people are very important to our business. They're the ones that are working while the rest of us are all at home. Okay, okay, so I think, yes, we lost Mike, unfortunately, connection. I want to thank you, so the three of you, not only two of you, for a very interesting and great debate. And I hope the participants who are connected found it also very interesting. And I look forward for our next one in the future. Ah, Mike is back. Sorry, Mike is back. Mike, if you allow me one minute, if you allow me one minute. Go ahead. Yes, Mike, I wanted to ask you Are you still here? Are you here? Yep, I'm here. Mike, I wanted to ask you what keeps you awake? On that time, you left. Not having connections to Zoom calls? No, it's really, what we focus on a lot is weird to expand, you know? And because everything we do is really capex intensive. And so ultimately, you know, the days of people signing pre-construction contracts to participate in a network. Say even a very large network from Chicago to the West Coast, you know, the Pacific West Coast. So those people don't do that anymore. So when you make a decision to build, it is very much field of dreams. You have to hope they come. Now you do your diligence and you survey the market and you understand the trends, but you do so very much at your own risk. And if market events or regulatory landscape changes, you know, you could be left with an asset that's difficult to get a return on. And so I think that's happening right now with China. When you're gauging whether or not to do investments there. And so we think about this all the time, if, you know, and when we're looking at expansion is how, what is our return going to be and how certain it is it? And the answer is, it's pretty uncertain. Okay, okay. Well, now I can say thank you a second time. Thank you very much, Mike. Thank you to you, Mike, to you, Gail and to you, Sajit, for attending this very exciting panel on discussion. And Carl, I think that's up to you for the confidence if you're there, Carl. Yes, thank you to all for your expert opinions on the state of today's financial networks. I learned quite a lot from watching today's panel, and I hope our viewers did as well. I also want to shout out, obviously, our guest moderator for today, Charles de Sajit. Thank you so much. Charles is the managing partner at Cambridge MC and he did an excellent job in keeping us on point today. Just a quick reminder, we're now going to shift our conversation over to LinkedIn where we will be able to answer any more of your questions. Just click on the direct link that was shared in the chat box earlier to continue on to the Q&A. And to go ahead and register for future upcoming JSA Roundtables, simply visit jsa.net. Our next one on November 12th will examine best practices in partnerships for next generation network infrastructure. Well, that's a wrap. Look out for the playback of today's Roundtable coming soon to JSA TV and JSA podcasts on YouTube, iTunes, iHeart, Spotify and more. In the meantime, see you over on LinkedIn. Happy networking, everyone. Thanks, everyone. Thank you, bye. All right.