 Welcome back. We dive straight into our first conversation right here on the Breakfast Central Bank of Nigeria on Sunday as you all know extended the deadline for the swapping of the old narrow notes with the redesigned new narrow notes till February 10, 2023. In a press conference, or rather a press release, the CBN governor, Corinne Nefili, is quoted as saying the apex bank added quote, a 10-day extension of the deadline from January 31, 2023 to February 10, 2023 to allow for the collection of more old notes. He also noted that Nigerians would still be able to deposit their old notes directly with the central bank of Nigeria until February 17, described as quote, a grace period. Now there has been pressure from many quarters from Nigerians and groups around the country concerning the initial January 31 deadline for the validity of the old narrow notes as the scarcity of the newly designed 200, 500 and 1000 narrow notes prevailed around the country. Crowds have thronged the banking halls to beat the deadline with some commercial banks remaining open through the weekend. Joining us this morning for analysis on this, we have Hussain K. or Larry Wajah, who is an economist, particularly he's the chief national chief aggregating after association of mobile money and back agents of Nigeria, in Nigeria, Amman. Hussain, good morning to you. Thank you very much for your time. Good morning. Did this extension come to you as a surprise? And are you disappointed or are you happy to see that the CBN has gone ahead to do what it said it wouldn't do just recently as recently as Thursday? So I'm not surprised because we need to work with reality. I believe the extension is needed. As we can see, the CBN record shows that if Nigerians do not see a deadline, we don't see urgency in making things up or making things work. It has been 90 days for us to bring in the old notes, but we can see that it is towards the end that we see the rush. So the extension is needed and the record shows that so far the CBN has been able to bring back 75% of the money, which is outside the banking vaults. We left with 25%. Let's see what that can do. It's a work on development and it's expected because we are trying in Nigeria. We don't have that same facility that could enable us to get things done within that short period of time. But it's necessary that it is done. But I'd like us to also look at the consent of the House of Reps. They have rejected this extension and making reference to section 20, subsection 2, 3 of the CBN Act. What do you make of this? When it comes to financial matters, I believe the CBN has constitutional authority to do things that best work for the economy. And don't let us forget the fact that if CBN brings out a policy that is meant to strengthen the value of the economy and they go back and trick it again, what it means is even from a direct investment, people will question their action, that credibility of what they are expected to do. And mind you, there is always monthly monetary policy committee review. There are service meetings before they can come out to say this is what we intend to achieve. For me, I think the House are sketched, you know, I could say some of them are probably serving or retired, have been stocking this money in the House. So I am seeing more of a personal sentiment playing out about their position in what we have today. I think there are not many matters it is, and that has been the arguments they have been hiding under. Okay, you have another question? Yes, it's just a follow-up to this conversation. I mean, if you look at the Act, I really don't know if you have looked at this section that the House of Reps. have made reference to section 20, subsection 3, 4 and 5 of the Act, that was CBN Act, and it speaks to authority. It also speaks to acceptance. There are several issues as well as this. I like us to talk more about it. Do you think that this is a very valid stance for, don't forget that, I mean, we are not in a jungle. The rule of law must be respected. So do you think that the CBN governor and the CBN servers acted in accordance with the provision of the law? So when it comes to the law, like Nigerian constitution can actually be interpreted to suit the situation they want to suit, right? But constitutionally, I believe the responsibility of the House is to scrutinize who is being presented to head or to lead firms like CBN. And when it comes to the authority of the economy, I believe the President has more power, executive power, to make things happen. Because if we are talking about the growth, the reality of what the impact of all this policy will come to be, it will definitely hit back more to the executive than the legislative. So they can tweak it to fit what actually fit them. If the best they have to do, they've done it, which is to invite the CBN governor, which he was able to represent by the Deputy CBN governor to explain the reason why this kind of policy has been put in place and the effects on the economy. So I think that is their jurisdiction. They should work with that. Interesting. It could have been predicted and it was predicted by a lot of people, myself inclusive. And you said yourself that you weren't surprised with this extension. Looking at the antecedent of the CBN, throughout this Naira swap and also cash withdrawal policy deadline or limits, they kept changing and shifting and adjusting and extending. So a lot of people could predict that they were going to extend this deadline. Even though Gaudi Mifili addressed the press conference saying he is sorry to disappoint Nigerians, he apologizes, but there is no going back. Do you think the CBN went about this the right way? Bearing in mind, the rush, you said we were in the last minute, but you know that the commercial banks opened through the weekend. A lot of staff went to work for going their weekend off days and they were at work when they were greeted on the head. Some of the bank workers said they were highly disappointed because they left their two days off to go sit in the banking hall, sacrifice those days just to make sure that they got the job done. Also, we have some business people who are lamenting saying they rejected the Naira notes on Sunday because they did not want to be caught off guard when they went to the bank. Maybe they'll be in a queue and the deadline will pass and all that. So should the bank, the Apex Bank, have gone about this a different way ahead of time? If you know you're going to extend this thing, at least on Friday, tell Nigerians, okay, we're extending it by 12 days instead of waiting until the last minute. So it's funny, like you said, I'm not really surprised, but you see the attitude of Nigerians has to change. It's very difficult and there are things that you need to put in place to not let them feel relaxed. So I believe it's a timing extension and yes, it's not going to go well with the workers of the bank. Yes, it's not going to go well with the general public, but the interesting part of it is people are forced to do the needful. And I could tell you it really affected a lot of amendments that we are also seeking looking at it from the position level because the agents who are meant to serve the URA areas, the Naira Bank, are not really well categorized to even participate. Yes, they drink a cash swap and what a view. So there are a lot of people in the URA areas who are also caught out. I can tell you that there are a lot of policy amendments that needs to be looked into, like the cash swap program started on the 23rd of January, which is very close, just like selling this to the end of the initial deadline. So there are a lot of pressure. Yes, we are not going to lie about the fact that it's not convenient. It's tiring, but to be told, Nigerians, the best way to make things work in Nigeria is to enforce and to make things a little bit revealed first before we can change, before we can move to do the needful. I think that's what does play out. That's what I can see from my end. I like you to speak to this school of thoughts. It's making the rounds and it might also become a reality, especially when the CBN governor has not spoken to that or the CBN itself has not addressed this issue of non-availability. Now, you have a school of thought that says that the reason why you have this cash, the new Naira note, not available is because politicians have been in bed with bank managers and that's why it's not available. So you have politicians and bank managers who have come to some sort of consensus and have gone to buy this note and that's why you don't have that in circulation. Which also stated that there was also a report back to the president by CBN governor and that's why we are having the back and forth, the scarcity of the new note. What do you make of this? Well, like you said, it's more like a rumor and the reality is, I was part of the international production inclusion week held in November last year and the CBN governor categorically states that the new Naira design note, most especially the higher domination, the less of 500, 1000 Naira note, will be limited in terms of printing and it is a deliberate act. And also, the CBN governor said that after the deadline, the ATM machine are to be loaded with 200 Naira maximum, that is highest domination note on all ATM machines. So what they are trying to do is to ensure that the cash that are being stored in the house are not taking back to the economy, like return back, then you will not start looking for it again. And for me, in reality, is a good policy. So what this will help us to achieve is to track corruption to address the issue of insecurity because ransom are paid with higher domination of Naira notes. So if we don't have record, when cash is exchanged, there is lots of data and that is a concern for any serious economy or any serious society, because you don't know how to track, if you want to do security concern, you want to track who does this, how, when, you don't have data, data is lost. So what is trying to achieve is to ensure that we have every of the Naira notes, or every of our currency monitored, such that if there is any insecurity, any funding for terrorism, corruption, laundry and stuff like that can easily be cited. So it's a welcome development, but again, I say the policy needs some little amendments to entertain some realities. Like I give you an example, when you say the maximum you can withdraw on a purest machine is 20,000. With the reality of things like cost of rise, for example, is like 40, 46,000 Naira. So are you saying you have to pay three, four times if you are to pay with your ATM card? So this is not working with the reality in the market as of today. So there are a little bit of adjustments that needs to be done on this policy. But for saying the Arab nation, it's a deliberate action and it is a welcome development. If we truly want to move ahead from where we used to be, to where we ought and expected to be. What are your thoughts on the roles the commercial banks are playing in all of this? Because I mean, yes, we always talk about the central bank of Nigeria. But the central bank has said a number of times that they have made sufficient supply of the new Naira nodes available to the commercial banks and that they expect the banks to give these out. And I mean, we've seen the reports of some staff of the commercial of the central bank of Nigeria going to banks, to query the banks and to inspect and to find out why people are complaining of unavailability of the new Naira nodes at the ATMs and so on and so forth. We've also seen viral videos of people being given preferential treatment in the cash swap at the banks. What are your thoughts on the role of the commercial banks? Because as it stands, the central bank is saying they've actually handed these videos over to the EFCC and ICPC and they are requesting that the EFCC and ICPC deploy their personnel to the commercial banks over the next 10 days to ensure that there is fairness and equitable distribution of these new Naira nodes. So what are your thoughts on the role of these commercial banks? Because we've also seen videos of people in this country spraying, like we call it, the new Naira nodes, even in bundles, we've had reports of those who normally sell mint, mint, new Naira nodes, selling them at the central business district in Lagos and outside event centers in Lagos. How are they getting their hands on these nodes when the majority of people are complaining they do not have access to the new Naira nodes? So thank you. Like I said earlier, the new Naira node is limited. Most surely when it comes to the higher donation, I can say in some states they get their location very late. However, the CBN governor also noted that it has been noticed across the country that some preferential treatment are given to some individuals who are withdrawing over the counter. And in response to that, the CBN also sent a notification, a memo out that over the counter withdrawal should be stopped for new Naira nodes. And also in response to that, the CBN governor also accredited like 30,000 agents, registered on that different super agents network across the country to participate in the cash swap. I think these are the developments that came around in January 23 to curb the excesses of the ban. Yes, people are doing favoritism, Nigeria, which is not good. So to cut that excesses, they come up with another homework, get 30,000 people to go to the internment, which are the more rural areas to do the cash swap, stop over the counter transactions, and then I can confirm to you that part of agents network that are being in this, we have ICPC, ESPC or Grant monitoring the situation put in bank and on field. Because even those who are doing cash swap as individuals, they are not allowed to do more than 10,000 per individual withdrawal per day with the cash swap. So there are some processes to the cash swap. So I believe the CBN is trying to respond as quick as possible. So do you agree that the commercial banks are largely responsible for the so-called scarcity of the new Naira notes? I want to disagree because the new Naira note is also be hinted in print. And as they are getting their allocation, I believe they are also loading the ATM machine. So the allocation is not as I expected from the populace. I really don't know how that's the case. I mean, this is not a picture that we're trying to paint from, let's say Iraq or Ukraine right there. We're not trying to tell a story or telling something that's happening. It's firsthand every other time. I mean, there's a bank disclosed to this office. If I walking there, two things I would experience this morning. I might get money and the kind of money I will get will be the old notes or the problem will not be dispensing at the time. Now we have seen just like Kofi had mentioned, people who are throwing this note. You find people, we've seen actresses who married to politicians putting out this note. They are showing it. Oh, my husband gave me XYZ. There are new notes. You go to the parties, you find people, these vendors selling new notes. They have means. We hear of the stories. People buy it. They pay so much to get this note. So I really don't know if it's mostly the case that it's not the commercial banks that are responsible for this. I don't know how we explain all of that because we know that these notes have been chunked out into the system. But along the line, there's been a compromise. But I'd like you to speak to this just quickly. This might just be the last one. Because we don't have time. Exactly. What becomes of our economy if we don't have? I mean, I'd like you to paint a picture of what kind of economy we'll be experiencing where we have the new notes not in circulation. And then we are going to, you know, get to the point where the old notes will no longer become legal tender. What exactly is going to happen to us? None availability of the new note and meeting the deadline of the old notes. Thank you. What I'm saying is before January 23rd, yes, people have had the opportunity to do over the counter withdrawals and do based on probably SSS of the bank staffs and what are due to get this note. But it is a response to this reality that the CBN came up with the restriction of over the counter withdrawals should be stopped, of course. And since then, it has reduced. And since then you can see before January 23rd, there are very limited bands who have access to this cash or have even loaded the ATM machine with the new notes. You see, you still see them loading the old notes, right? So after this, you can see that there is improvement is not readily available. I can confirm to you, like Ocean State, as at 1SD, out of those agents that are expected to do the cash swap, the bank manager or some banks are confirmed. They have not even received allocation. They received allocation late on 1SD. So it is not readily available in some locations, right? So I believe it's an ongoing process and there is need for improvement to ensure things work out as expected. All right. Very interesting conversation with you this morning and Hussain. We hope to have you again soon on the program. We appreciate your time. Hussain Olaari Wajiri is an economist and also the National Chief Aggregating Officer of the Association of Mobile Money and Bank Agents of Nigeria. I appreciate it. I don't know if you're one of the super agents. I don't know if also the POS operators have something to do with your association. But you seem to have a bit chill about everything. So I'm sure that there is no complaint, no cause for alarm from your end. There is actually a complaint because the limitation for individuals is what is also given to an agent. So they're asking an agent to serve those 50 people in a week. And once he serves the 50 people in a week, he should go and sleep. Yes. He will work on it, pay penalty of 5%, 3%, you know, or whatever. We have to go. That will definitely impact on the population. Maybe you have to just go pay a cut to call on the central bank government. We'll be there. We'll be there and we'll keep talking. All right. Fantastic. Thank you very much for your time. And that's the size of that discussion up next. We'll be having a look at the fact that the federal government of Nigeria, most of all that's happening is allotting 1.18 billion now for autonomy rather in Nigerian investors. What's up with that? We'll be right back. Stick with us.