 Yeah. Okay. The appointed hour of five o'clock p.m. Having been reached, I welcome everyone to this meeting of the Amherst Design Review Board. My name is Catherine Porter as chair of the Amherst Design Review Board. I call this meeting to order. Pursuant to Governor Baker's March 12, 2020 order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law. GLC 30A section 18 and the governor's March 15, 2020 order imposing strict limitations on the number of people that may gather in one place. This public hearing of the town of Amherst Design Review Board is being conducted via remote participation. No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted, but the public can attend tonight's virtual meeting by using the zoom login information provided on the meeting agenda listed on the meeting calendar, which provided on the town of Amherst website. We will begin with a roll call of the members of the Design Review Board who have been impaneled for the consideration of the items on tonight's agenda. Board members, please say aye or yes to acknowledge your attendance for the record. Catherine Porter, aye. Lindsey. Schnarr. Hi. Okay, Janet Markward. Yes. Erica Zekos. Also in attendance is Marine Pollock, planner and staff liaison to the Design Review Board. The Design Review Board and its accompanying zoning regulations were created by town meeting in October 1983. The charge and purpose of the Design Review Board under section 3.2 of the zoning bylaw is to reserve and enhance the town's cultural, economic and historical resources by providing for a detailed review of all changes in land use, the appearance of structures and the appearance of sites which may affect these resources. The Design Review Board exercises this responsibility by providing design review and recommendations to private applicants and permit granting boards within specific overlay zoning districts in the town center. The Design Review Board overlay district, no the design review overlay district and the town common design review overlay district. Design Review was also provided for town departments and permit granting boards with respect to town projects anywhere in Amherst which will result in substantial alteration to the form or appearance of a structure or site. All design review board meetings are open to the public and are recorded by town staff. Each meeting recording will be uploaded to the town of Amherst YouTube channel for public viewing. The procedure is as follows. The petitioner presents the application to the board during the meeting after which the board will ask questions for clarification or additional information. After the board has completed its questions, the board will deliberate. If the board feels it has enough information and time, it will decide upon recommendations for each respective application. Once the board has voted on its recommendations, the staff liaison will type up the recommendations for distribution to the applicant. Board applicable land use board and building commissioner. Tonight's agenda for September 8, 2020 is as follows. DRB FY 2021-01 Jones Library 43 Amity Street to review the proposed location and layout of the temporary tent located at 43 Amity Street. DRB FY 2021-02 Town of Amherst various locations to review the proposed locations and design at the proposed way finds way finding signs. That completes the opening statement. Do we have somebody here from the library. Yes, let me, I'm bringing up Sharon Sherry. I'm going to make her a panelist George Hicks. And then another person is labeled as Jones Library. Sharon, are you, are you there? Hold on a second. Sorry. I'm here. Hi everybody. Hi. Hello. Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm actually going to, George is actually going to be the one who gives the presentation and I'll just be here for follow up questions. If you have any. Sounds good. Yeah, that's me. Do you want me to just go right ahead? Yes. Go ahead. Ready. Can you hear me? Okay. Yes. I've been using so many different computers for zoom meetings these past several months. And we've been using all of the computers for a long time. So I'm going to go ahead and talk about how we can do the work. Right. Yeah. I figured in case one dies. The other ones there. So yeah. Anyways. We submitted an application in order to put a temporary tent in front of the library. So that we can offer as many library services as possible right now. So that's one of the biggest concerns we've had. And we have hopes that if we put a tent in front of the library. As a temporary structure. That we can at least provide those services right now, as well as other potential services. The tent itself. I believe on the application, we had it as a 12 by 40. After talking to. Rob Mora and Jeremiah and the fire department. We can actually increase the width of that to 14 feet. My reasoning for going with the 12 foot was that I wanted to ensure that we had enough space on both sides. In order for. For tethering and all of that. There's not a lot of frontage in front of the library. We have about 20 feet before we start hitting garden. In front of the library. But if we opted to go with a steel frame. Tent versus a pole. Tents. We can save some width and we can go a little bit wider. So the actual tent that we'd be looking to install is. 14 feet by 40 feet. The location of the tent. Is really in the only spot that we have on library property that's level and open enough. In order to put a tense. So if you're facing the library. Thank you. If you're facing the library. It would be to the right hand side of the. Stone sidewalk going in the front door. And the tent would go from that sidewalk to. A few feet short of where the outside book drop is. And the plan is that people would enter. One side and go out the other side. In order to. Keep us legal. You know, two sides of the tent need to be open at all times. We do have to maintain social distancing inside the tent. So with a tent of this size, we can have 10 patrons seated at tables. And they would still be socially distance six feet. And there would be enough room for a staff member. We have already looked into electrical and what it would take to put it out there. I've already run by the. Initial concept with the electrical inspector in town. And they gave it their blessing with the, you know, a couple of questions. So, yeah, that's where we're at right now. The town itself. Is opting to purchase the tent using COVID funds. So the library isn't purchasing the purchasing the tent ourselves. It's going to be a town owned tent. And Jeremiah LaPlante is in the process of purchasing that. So we don't have. A specific installation date if everything gets approved. So we're looking forward to that. So we're looking forward to that. Hopefully that you will approve and endorse this. And we'll keep moving forward. We're trying to get it all done as soon as possible so we can get as much done before. Unfortunately, snow flies and we won't be able to use a tent out front anymore. So with that, I'm open to questions, comments, anything like that. Okay. So all of the stations will have computers or laptops or something at them. Is it primarily for that? Right. Primarily, it's going to be used for laptops. The laptops have been purchased already. And at the end of the day, you know, all the equipment will come back inside the building and the tables will get taken down. We'll be using specific folding tables for this. That'll be lightweight and easy to bring in and outside. And then we'll be using the computer service. And that initially was a slight concern with us. So we talked to the police department about it. And we know that they can step up the patrols and. There's tents all over downtown right now. So it's something that they're aware of. And that's something they keep tabs of anyways. Great. Thank you. Yes, Erica. So I just want to say I'm so happy to see this happening. I know how valuable the library is to folks in town and to provide this service that's been absent for so many is. Really critical. And I am. Happy to support it. And I do have some questions though. And I think in your application, you mentioned that the. The tent would be open. I'm sorry. I can't remember which sides of the tent will be open. And I'm just thinking about flow and. Also about signage. Because there's a, there's a look and feel to that that we'd like to see be consistent and informative. Right. The short ends of the tent would be open. The long ends of the tent would be closed. So the side of the tent facing Amity street would be. Would have a side on it. And the narrow ends would be open. And the long ends of the tent would be open. And the long ends of the tent would be an entrance. One would be an exit. What we were planning on using. While I was collecting all kinds of COVID stuff through March and May. I came across these large. Yellow plastic arrows. That I figured I would use for entrance and exit. It's, you know, it's a, it's a universal symbol. It's not the most gorgeous thing, but it will definitely get the point across. And I think it's a good idea to do that. And I think it's a good idea to do that as well. Direct the flow to make sure that people are only going in one way and coming out another way. Will there be any. Anything on the outside of the tent that says that this is. Temporary extension of the Jones library into the lawn. We haven't gotten that far. We could certainly come up with a banner or something. Right now we're relying on an awful lot on. But of course, if people don't have internet access or computer, they wouldn't see all of that. So yeah, there's definitely a plan to have some kind of signage and a way to, to let people know what this is. I mean, we're also thinking just having a tent outside is going to make people curious and want to come in and see what's going on. But yeah, definitely there need, there does need to be some kind of signage. Marine. Okay. I wanted to ask about the. Were you having any auxiliary heating in there or you're really discounting on good weather to. Yeah, for people can be comfortable and then when it gets cold, you will close the. We'll take the, take the tent down or just close it for the season. We are hopeful to go as long as we possibly could. I mean, we're all from New England. We know what could happen. We could have snow on October. It could be 80 degrees in the middle of November. So we're kind of playing it by ear. We did specify the tent out so that if we opted to put some type of space heater in there that we could do it. We certainly, you know, once it gets too cold, you know, it's not going to be comfortable for people to be comfortable. We will have, we will have to stop using it. Yeah. Well, I agree with Erica. I mean, it's really something that we, we need. And we can argue about it. It's so essential. For so many patrons to have that access to a computer. So allow for air flow or how, what are you thinking about? Right. We specified the tent that, that we're purchasing it with all four sides. We can only use two sides. The sides though, they can be raised if we wanted to say, if we had an especially warm day, we, they're all, you know, adjustable. You could either lift it or, you know, fold back half of it. The sides aren't permanent. So if we wanted to open the thing wide open, we could as long as, you know, the sun glare doesn't affect the computers themselves, but the entire narrow sides would be wide open. So it should provide plenty of air flow. Any other comments for questions? I also think this is a great, a great service that you're providing. And wondered if, it sounds like the tent is the plan, but we've seen a lot of really creative approaches to. Advertising and just kind of community. Support in some of the outdoor spaces that have been set up downtown. And so if there is an opportunity to perhaps increase the. Just the way in which this, this tent or whatever kind of enclosure or structure that you put up could, could include some kind of like playful or. Library oriented, reading oriented, community oriented. Art or information. I think that that would be a nice touch. Yeah, I totally agree with that. It's, it's been a learning process for all of us. Just, just a simple fact of getting it out there for people who are picking up and returning books right now. Just coming up with creative signage like this book is out now and you can check it out and just figure out where those signs are most effective. We've moved it around three times so far. And they're, the librarians are constantly thinking of ways that we can promote this and promote everything else that we do at the same time. So yeah, I think that. If we get a tent out there, I think you'll see a lot of creative advertising. That that will definitely get it out there to the public. I had a question. Jan, go ahead. I'll move that we approve the library's application for a temporary tent on the front lawn. Okay. It's been moved. Is there a second? Okay. Erica second. All in favor indicate by saying aye. Aye. You do too. I need to do a roll call. Here's a roll call. Catherine Porter. Aye. Lindsay. Okay. Janet. Aye. And Erica. Okay. I guess it's unanimous. Thank you all so much. Okay. Thank you. Okay. I'm going to pull Ben. And, um, uh, Chris. So this is for, uh, the, uh, Signage wayfinding signed. Um, So I'm Chris Brestner planning director. And I wanted to give you a bit of a history about this project. For a while. Um, the proposal will be presented by Ben Bregger after I give this a little bit of history. So we started working on this wayfinding. Uh, design sign. Um, The proposal will be presented by Ben Bregger after I give this a little bit of history. So we started working on this wayfinding. Uh, design sign. In 2015. With a grant that we received from the state. And we partnered with the bid. And we hired a designer called Mark favor. He's a designer based in Boston. And, um, He was called upon to design a wayfinding sign system for downtown. And at the end of that project, um, has been signed by, um, Uh, The design of the design that Mr. Faverman came up with. So in 2017. The town hired Seth Gregory, based in North. Who developed a sign design that the town preferred. And in July of 2017, three years ago, a little more than three years ago, We presented Seth Gregory's design family of signs to the design review board. about the design. And then in the spring of 2018, we received funding from town meeting to fabricate and install the signs and we proceeded to work further with Seth to revise and refine the design. In the meantime, the bid contracted to fabricate and install the signs that are currently in the roundabout at Triangle Street and East Pleasant Street. And these signs are different from the ones that were presented to the DRB in 2017. So you're looking at an image of the roundabout sign here. In the spring of 2019, we presented a revised welcome sign and a post-directional sign to the DRB. And then new design, as you see here, was similar to that installed by the bid and different from the sign that Seth had originally designed. So when we presented this to the DRB, the DRB came forth with a lot of feedback. The DRB preferred the signs that were first reviewed by them in 2017. The DRB didn't like the butterscotch color of the lettering or the banding at the bottom of this sign. The DRB didn't like the rust color background but preferred the darker brown espresso color of the background and the green band below the sign that instead of the yellow band. The DRB wanted a sharper contrast between the brown background and the ghost image of the town logo and the word welcome. And the DRB preferred a band that sits below the sign rather than the band that is part of the sign. So we're back to present a revised welcome sign with revisions based on your comments from March of 2019. And these revisions will bring the design back closer to the 2017 version. I don't believe that you had any comments about the design of the post directional signs. So those are pretty similar to what you saw in 2017. In addition, we're presenting locations for the welcome signs and the post directional signs. And we'd like your recommendations and comments about the locations. So now if you don't have any questions for me, I'd like to ask them to present the new sign design and their locations. Great, thanks Chris for that background. So my name is Ben, I'm a planner with the town and I'm glad Seth is here as well, who's the designer of the signs. So I'm planning on kind of just walking through the locations for the welcome signs, the new design for the welcome signs and then the locations for the directional post signs. And yes, Seth, you can feel free to jump in at any time, but I'll move through this now. So this is the new design for the welcome signs. It has a darker brown background, more contrast with the lettering and then a green band at the bottom that's separated from the sign itself. And we're proposing four of these around town at some of the key gateways to downtown. This would say, obviously this arrow would change depending on which direction you're approaching town center. And there's one sign where the Emily Dickinson houses, that would say town center and Emily Dickinson Museum as banners below here. So maybe I'll just do a quick flashback to the previous sign just to kind of, so you guys can see the differences. And I think Seth is proposing a stone wall at the foundation just to have a nice base as well. So I'm happy to like stop here if there's any comments or questions, but I can also move along for the locations as well, but. Jim. Noise on this. Did you drop the welcome to on purpose or was it just forgotten? I'm sure that was intentional. I mean, all the conversation over the course of, you know, two to three years now, but perhaps Chris does or we can't recall him. I like having the two there because otherwise it's like, welcome Amherst. It's certainly something that can go back in. That's not something I had. I figured maybe it was just dropped off. Yeah. I actually just like, I think it's, I think I could, I can imagine it just being like a welcome and there's something I can see both sides. I can see that kind of logic of the phrasing welcome to, but I also kind of appreciate just the simplicity of just the welcome. So I can imagine an intentional approach to that as well. Just a thought. Well, it's better than it saying Amherst, Massachusetts, welcomes you like the state sign say. Yeah. I think the logic behind this approach is that you're certainly gonna read Amherst first. So the welcome to right would be creating a phrase, welcome to Amherst, but you're highly unlikely to actually read it in that order. And so then it becomes a little awkward because the brain's going Amherst, Massachusetts, welcome to. So in this way, you know, anticipating that experience of someone reading the sign, it's sort of just treated as an aside, right? It's just, it's complimentary to the information you're getting and it's not intended as like a linear phrase that you're reading. Well, I have to say this is an improvement over the one that's downed by the rotary. First time I saw that one, I nearly wrecked my car because we had never had any input into that sign. But actually what you're referring to, Jan, and then the town shield are, to me, they're just blurs. If anybody's driving by, I didn't even know what that was until I really got up close. I guess you have to have it, but how many people are even gonna see that's welcome? That just looks like, you know, just static in the background and then the town shield. I don't know if you need it at all, but that's, you know, I wouldn't vote against it if everybody supported it, but I'm not sure all that stuff in the background. On the ground about you don't see things, but if you're sitting at a signal or you're walking or you're getting off a bus in another location, I think you would. And I believe the shield is to coordinate across all the signs to have a... Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe. I do think too that, you know, the signs are, they're here to welcome newcomers to town, but those of us who live here also will see them daily. And so the fact that there's kind of a layered quality to the design or richness to it, you know, makes it something that, you know, you're willing to spend some time with, you're willing to see over and over again. It isn't merely for the visitor. It emerges a little bit. Right, yeah. So I see that point. It seems like there's, if you all are favoring butterscotch and brown, is there some reason with the whole color palette, you know, that might have been an option while you went to brown? Hello. I respect, as far as colors, are you referring to this darker one as brown? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, this was the same place. Yeah, I mean, I don't know the... Who made that one? Well, my impression is that, so this was more or less the intended original design that this is maybe a shade darker than what was originally proposed. The roundabout sign was developed with the bed, right? With the... I guess so. We didn't have a lot. And so there was some alterations made based on their preferences. So you're going to replace those roundabout signs with this one. Is that the plan, Chris? If we get enough money, we might be able to do that. Well, I think it's a start there first. Obviously, I really don't like those signs. I don't like the color, but they look like they've just slapped up on a piece of board. They don't even have a... Well, I won't get into it, but I hope if I... May I just say those weren't installed by the town. Those were a joint effort of the bid, and I believe that one of the developers and property owners in the downtown... Oh, is that how they came about? Yes, so that was a separate project. Yeah, obviously. What the town is doing. And they were very eager to get it installed quickly because they were anticipating parents and families coming into town, not knowing where the downtown or the town center was. So they jumped the gun in a way. Yeah, I mean, there should be some sort of legislative... I know we have a lot of laws, but that should be a good one too, because you can't put up a sign without somebody giving permission. I'm with you. I mean, that's just maybe me, but... So I think just in the interest of time focusing on what you're presenting here, I mean, I do really like the response that you have shown us in terms of the feedback we've provided with the separation of the band that really relates back to the overall town wayfinding signs. And I think that that's a helpful element. And it's very clear, the text is crisp. I think the design is simple. So I think that we're potentially responding a little bit to the fact that there was some concern over the color that hasn't been modified. And so while I don't have a strong opinion about the colors as they're presented here, one thing that does kind of catch my eye just from a design standpoint, that's probably, maybe it doesn't bother others, but it's just that the white font of the town center with respect to the kind of cream font of the Amherst, Massachusetts just feels a little bit like maybe too close, like the cream versus white. And so I question that just a bit, is there a way to bring those closer together or perhaps make more contrast so that they don't look like they're kind of trying to be the white versus cream conflict? So that's my only real concern here. Otherwise, I think it reads clearly and it looks nice. That was something we brought up last time too with all the other comments was the cream versus the white. I remember talking about this before and I still think it's a concern. I don't particularly like the cream with the brown. I feel like I remember saying this about meeting. It looks like the 70s. I'd rather just see white on Amherst. I agree. I mean, is that a thought that we might make that recommendation or are these already, is it already set in stone that we can't? That can always make more changes. The recommendation, this set of signs though has been under development since 2017, this particular set. And it's gone through a lot of iterations and a lot of review and the design review board has reviewed it. This is the third time that the design review board has seen us though. I think in the interest of actually acting on this project, it's probably better to not make too many changes at this point. The town manager is really eager to get something installed and I'm afraid we're gonna lose our funding if we dally too much longer. So I feel like it's probably a good idea to try to get the white lettering closer to the cream or some balance between the two but I think making a really big change like changing the lettering on the big sign to white would be really a bridge too far at this point. It could be worth. So is the cream color the same cream that we responded to last time, Chris? Yes. Okay. So I mean, I think that there is obviously a reason why you held onto it. So I don't know that it's worth us belaboring that and maybe it's worth considering if that is the color for the town center lettering or I guess I'm curious if that's a given that that color is held for the main part of the sign like what are people's thoughts on the options for the coloring of the lettering below? I think you could tint the white slightly towards the cream but not that much because then it wouldn't be as visible. It's so small. Yeah. That contrast with the grade. Any other thoughts? People want to, and this is just Chris, is this sign going to be one that we discussed that's going to be at the foot of Amity and University? Is that? This sign is gonna go in three locations and then a modified version of this sign will go in the fourth location. And Ben might be able to show you the modified version. Well, he's probably gonna show you where the three are going and then where everyone is going by the Dickinson Museum. Okay. I would, I guess before we talk about location, I'll just chime in and just say that I definitely defer to Chris on process. I don't, I'm not as embedded in sort of the nuance of the implications of making changes but I would say just purely from an aesthetic point of view I appreciate that observation. I think it's valid. It's not something I had heard before so that might have gotten lost in translation but I would be in favor of changing the lettering on the sign to white and I don't think it would have any negative implications or complications for the process, for the fabrication or anything like that. Yeah. And so I would prefer to do that than to try to add color to the directional signs because we get into a variety of backgrounds, colors and I'm not as confident in how well those are gonna work as any color we're adding to white or reducing the contrast and you know, you're just creating some more potential for clashing of colors with like creams plus we've got purple, burgundy, green, a couple blues you know, other things like that. So I think we'd stay away from the white initially because we were thinking of a very warm kind of parchment and brick and steel palette, right? Just all these kind of, just local vernacular and but yeah, not being around in the 70s and it did not resonate with me that way. I was like, uh-oh, cream is bringing us back to the 70s. So I, the logic was that white is too, white might cheapen it in some way, might make it feel it's too predictable or it's too just plain but I also can appreciate the uniformity and the consistency and the crispness and the clarity and all that. So I'm indifferent, I guess that's all to say about it. I like the warmth. There's a coffee palette. I think you've mentioned that the brown is espresso and that planted the seed for me. There's a warmth to it that I appreciate. I do, the passage that was said to us before the meeting includes the mock-up of the sign in front of the Emily Dickinson Museum with all of the background information, the green of the grass and the brown of the fence and the trees and what have you and I think that it's the distinction between the white and the cream is a little less in your face than what we're seeing here on the plain white background. I don't have a significant issue with it because I see the town center portion of the sign as being related to this other part of the family and it's isolated, it's kind of held down below. I don't have a big issue with it. Yeah, I think I wonder if there, I mean, if there is still room for discussion, I would say that my suggestion would be to see if there is a more crisp, less buttery cream that might work with that town center signage that's closer to white, maybe still has a little warmth. I don't think it's a huge issue and if it's gonna cause problems of funding, Chris, I wouldn't push it at the cost of that but I also think that if there is a way to resolve it that isn't a big headache, then it might be nice to find a color that works for both that's in the white family. Yeah, I would agree. I'd like to see it move from that particular butterscotch-y look. Is there a way that Seth could do that and bring it back to a DRB meeting fairly soon? I can do my end fairly soon, yeah, there's no problem. Can it go by email or does it have to be an open meeting? It could go by email. If you need to send me a separate email saying yes or no, if you like it or not, the new revision. Okay. Okay, so what's the pleasure? Is that, can we put that in the form of recommendation that we would like to see the sign one more time and then assuming then that we weighed in and agreed that this would be what we see in the new version would be the best that we feel we could do. So you feel like you can see this in an email format and not as a meeting or would you prefer to have it in a meeting? Would we get the same clarity on the email that we have here? Sure, it'll just be a slide. It'll be the same thing, wouldn't it? Yeah, okay. How about this? How about if, you know, if I receive positive feedback from each of you, then it can be done by email. If for some reason each of you are like, wait a second, discuss this, then we could schedule a meeting. Not only is this on Zoom, we can schedule these pretty quickly. That's right. I don't mean to cause issues, but like I think we're gonna see the Emily Dickinson sign momentarily and the whole question of white expands as soon as we do that. So, okay, so let's take a look at that one. Hold on our process for a moment. Okay, so I'll move through this slide here. I think I had like all four locations and I think Emily Dickinson one was like, oh, there it is, perfect. Okay, zoomed right to it. So, yeah, this is basically to orient you. This is at the intersection of Triangle Street and Amity Street, regular main street, Triangle and Main. This is the sign that's currently there and we'd be replacing that sign with this. Can you show us the sign that's there now? So that has a white background on part of it and a kind of a cream. That's a little faded. Well, color of the fence. Can I just ask a quick question? I believe this, if I can remember correctly that the Emily Dickinson Museum was coded as a light tan in the Wayfinding signs. And I believe that the color decisions seem to indicate like different types of locations. So perhaps like the historic locations were a tan color and other, you know, campus for others. So I wonder about perhaps bringing that color, and I don't know if we have a quick reference, but bringing the color of the historic Wayfinding signs here and that might help, because I had a similar kind of like moment of pause when I first saw this, that the black on white, it just, it reads much more. It kind of feels like a different language, a little out of place compared to the Wayfinding signs, which I think have a little more, they relate to each other a little stronger with the softness of tone. Does the first slide that we saw with the examples of the Wayfinding little flag signs, does that have this color? I mean, that one, yeah. Good point that we'll do it, but yeah, it should be. Yeah, it's brown. It's supposed to be brown like you see along the highway. You know, when you're driving on the highway and you see a historical site, oh yeah, line for a historical site, it's supposed to be reminiscent of that color. Why aren't we using that on the, on there then? Well, Emily Dickinson, it's a little touchy because they own the Emily Dickinson Museum and they've given us permission to put a sign on their property. And I think they want to stick pretty closely to what their logo is. So we'd have to talk to them about whether they'd be willing to allow us to change the background color here, which is a conversation that we can have with them. Yeah, I see why they wouldn't. They'd still have a logo and the same words. It would just be slightly tinted more like their museum is. What if it were tinted the color of the band at the bottom of the sign that's there now? So Ben, can you show that sign again? Yeah, but yeah. There. What if it were tinted for the color? Yeah, or the color of the fence, which is essentially that kind of creamy thing I've been looking at. Yeah. So we'd have to have that mocked up and then show it to them. Well, what do you think? Is Seth still with us? I'm gonna realize that was a question was for me, it kind of broke up. Yeah, I mean, I think we're just, we were trying to navigate that conversation with them and their interests. And this was developed before doing the directional, the full directional series that you will maybe get to. And so in the context of other signs, right? On a post with a bunch of other signs, I think that cue of the color, of the brown color with the historical site I think is an extra layer that helps people sort through information, especially in a car moving. In this case, maybe it's not as crucial because there's not a whole lot of other things being processed at the same time. So that said, I think maybe if we're talking about softening that weight or just trying to create a less jarring kind of combination of colors, I could see that logic. So again, I think it's a conversation that we have to have to circle back to them as well. It sounds like. Have they seen the sign, the whole, the total sign? Have the Emily Dickinson? No, no they haven't. It's odd. It's sort of, I don't know. It seems not quite appropriate for the whole sign troubles me. In that location for Emily Dickinson, seemed like she'd be a bit more graceful. I mean, not that the old sign looks terribly worn out, but I think this is gonna be too late, but maybe what's troubling me is the sharpness of the edges. And if the sign, if we had time to rethink it, I would suggest maybe rounded edges, something that is a more, just a slightly softer approach to the whole thing, because man, I don't know, they're gonna like that sign on their property, but if they have to, that's up to them. I feel like. Jane Wald was part of the original group that worked with Seth. Yeah, but that was way back. Yeah, that's right, that was way back. That was a long time ago. I mean, I think it's as simple as cost, honestly. I think, you know, we had looked at and considered more elaborate forms and things that had more historical, you know, shapes and embellishments like that. Yeah, I realize that. How many of you just, yeah, unfortunate. And we decided to pursue a really. Yeah, I know you didn't have an opportunity to approach, but I mean, I agree with you, you know, if we were starting fresh today and we had unlimited budget, I would certainly want to consider that something with pillars or columns and caps and things. Yeah, I wasn't thinking of like so much the embellishment is just that, it's boy, it's so rectangular. Part of that is because it's an image that's been imposed across a photo. It won't look that way when it actually is a three-dimensional object. I think part of what you're seeing is the fact that it's a layered image. Yeah. I also think I appreciate the slender, the slenderness of the form and how that relates in a subtle way to the balusters of the fence. I think that there's something, and there's also a really strong simplicity to the balusters of the fence. So I don't know, I think it could be fine. Honestly, I think there is a sharpness to this, that sharpness and a slenderness and simplicity that doesn't feel that out of place in my opinion with respect to the sign. I think it's more, I think it's probably what Jan said that it's kind of this image without depth because it won't be experienced that way. And I think also the quartet and steel, that is that what you're planning to use still? That was the original dream. It's just not affordable enough. So we're trying to mimic that. Yeah, so I think that that aesthetic at least has a kind of aged quality that does reflect the historic nature of the town and these settings. So I think personally, I'm just visually responding a little, it's just a little, the white on black, a black on white just kind of like catches my eye in a way that feels like it doesn't quite really, looks like a sticker kind of like out of context with the rest of the sign. But otherwise I think it actually looks really nice. A couple just really simple comments. I would say I'm not sure if there wants to be more space between those two signs. I think you guys can figure that out. I mean, I know that you had it all dimensioned and I don't know if it makes sense to kind of give them a little more space between the two. But, and then obviously the arrow size would be the same. I think it's just an optical illusion that the black looks longer. But obviously those would want to match up in the font size. So yeah, I think it looks nice other than maybe some of the colors being a little off. So if I'm hearing you all, it sounds like the board would be interested in playing with that white to make that a little more creamy if you will or find a color that's complementary to the fence or go back to the family or go back to this sign and use the entrance background or go back to the family of signs slide and look at that brown sign or is that two? One thing that's nice about that just, and I think we could argue color for a long time but because there's pros and cons either way but I do think one thing that's nice about this is it's dark enough that allows the white to be readable where if we go lighter then we're gonna end up with a black lettering in order to get that same kind of contrast. So it's just a give and take. It might be, I think it would be interesting to see this color with the white. And if there's something that kind of relates maybe the tone of it kind of relates back to the signage or sorry, the fence color that's there just to kind of blend it or not blend it but like relate it back. I think that that can be a nice option. So just so I'm clear, you're suggesting that the Emily Dickinson Museum sign take on that kind of cocoa color and then the lettering and the logo be white. Is that what you're suggesting Lindsey? Generally speaking, yes, but I would say that the only caveat is that the white be whatever the white is that you guys decide on overall from our previous discussion. Alternatively, I could imagine that this color, this white becomes like was discussed this kind of softer tan color and then the lettering would need to be black. How do other members feel about Lindsey's suggestion? So using sort of like a cocoa color that was shown in the earlier slide for the historical signs and then using a whatever the finalize cream slash white lettering side, lettering color would be. It'd be worth looking to see if the letters stand out. I like the idea of the background changing but I'm not sure Lindsey, do you think that the white will pop out? It stood out pretty well in the way finding signs. I mean, I thought that was pretty cool. And it did pretty much on that green one too, yeah. It will depend on whatever that white becomes. So it's white, white, or... I agree that the lettering on the directional part would stay white and that if anything changed, it would be that the larger hammers sign would go lighter than that warm cream but we were leaving the white on the other because Seth was saying there's so many different color backgrounds you need that contrast. That wasn't going to change, right Seth? Okay, now we've got two backgrounds. We're talking about the Emily Dickinson strip. I think what I'm hearing is that there's a proposed solution that emphasizes all type everywhere on all signs be the same, like whether that ends up being white or an off-white of some sort that at least be uniform. I'll throw in some color theory there just to say white is going to look different on every single background color regardless of it being the same just because of off-packs. But we weren't saying the big signs and the little signs had to be the same. We were just saying the big sign should maybe be not quite so creamy but leave white or black as you were, as you will, on the small signs for clarity. Sure, I was going to come back. So that's good to clarify because I was going to come back to you with an option with everything white with the Amherst Massachusetts white and everything staying white on the small signs and then a version where everything's off-white. So just not pure white, just slightly tinted, a little bit warmer, a little bit tanner, not nothing drastic, nothing that I would, something that I would still feel comfortable in terms of legibility, putting out and testing on these different colors but something that's just not white. I think in an ideal scenario, there would be a single color that worked for both. It may not be totally necessary and it may be unachievable but my feeling is that if we can find one that works well on both, it might just simplify and unify the overall sign approach. If you do that, then the background of the strip that says Emily Dickinson is going to have to be that darker cocoa because you're not going to have enough contrast unless it's dark enough. Or it can be black. I feel like, you know, with thinking about the post sign that a great deal of work has gone into providing a consistent message from sign to sign and that when we see blue, we understand we're looking for parking. And this is the one place where the Emily Dickinson Museum has a really different approach and that if we are thinking about the whole purpose of way finding and creating that simple package that my first vote would be for this to be white and brown, if that's not something that the Emily Dickinson folks would approve of and we don't know yet because they haven't been asked, then I think a second choice would be any of the other things that we've talked about. But it's clear to me that we want to create a family and stick with it. That might be really beautiful to have that bottom sign be a brownish color with white lettering. Do you know how this brown color relates to this brown color? This seems a little bit like richer almost, right? It's closer to a burgundy. It's got more red in it. Another one is really as close as I could get to like historical culture. Because it's so familiar and people know to look for it. And so it's smart to always build on those associations when we can get in. And this would be the one, actually, I don't know. We haven't been through. I don't think I have clear in my head if any of the other welcome signs are going to have anything besides town center panels on them or not. No, they won't. Anyone? OK, so this is our one situation where we're going to see those browns next to each other. And hopefully it's, I think it would be pleasant. But again, I'm leaving the politics to Chris. I'm going to get it to him. But I proposed to them, Chris, if you are talking about strategizing this right now is if they push back on the white on brown to coordinate with all other signs, we show them the whole family. We say, here's the system. And this is why this makes a lot of sense. One concession I can imagine making is that the logo panel, just the square around the logo is white with its logo. So there's a consistency in the branding there. They have that little square to kind of say, OK, got your brown directional sign, and you've got your logo on there. Pure, like no alterations to the logo. So that would be my back pocket idea. Yeah. I don't think my chain wouldn't like that, because it seems to me it'll look a lot richer. This looks kind of like there was something else, and we just took some white tape and put it over it. You know what I mean? I think it'll look much richer, and it won't jump out. It's right now it's sticking out, and you're not even seeing Amhersturch. You're seeing Emily Dickinson Museum first, and then. Oh, yeah, exactly. You just got to the core of it, right? I know more. I mean, maybe Jane will want that, but it seems to me that she wants something tasteful, too. Yeah, that's what we're selling. Seth, would you be willing to meet with me and Jane and Ben would need to be there, too, and talk to her about this? Of course, yeah. We can coordinate our schedules, yeah. All right, let's try to do that. So I agree. I agree. Don't even talk to me. Just to repeat, so you're looking for a background, like a cocoa color that is similar to that slide that shows the family of signage. And then the lettering, would the lettering be white, or would the lettering be the sort of combo creme whitish creme, I guess? Just using the styling of those historical cultural signs as is the white on tan, yeah? Yeah. So is this sign going to be installed into the stone work that you had shown on the other slide, or is this going to go right down into the ground? I've been a strong advocate for landscaping and flowers and things, but I think that sounds like it's going to be a volunteer-led effort, probably, or donated or something. OK, so the posts are going to go right to the ground. We're going to see it like that, the posts in the ground. Yeah, potentially. Potentially. It depends on what the DPW is willing to do, because I think that's who's going to be installing these signs for us. So they may be feeling very artistic on the day that they're putting these in, and they may not be. You have to work with them. Well, they would be the same consistent work. OK, I'll keep it simple. So this is one of the three locations, or this is the fourth different location? This is one of four. OK, so this one, and then where are the? One, this is the modified location, or is this? Where are the others? Yeah, you mentioned three, and then there's one that's modified. So look at the brown welcome dots, or where the signs are proposed. So, sorry, hold on. So this is the Dickinson one we were just looking at. OK. In the section of Triangle and Amity. This is the second sign that would be kind of on the southeast corner of the commons. As you approach on Route 9, this is the third sign that would be on the eastbound side of Route 9 as you're coming up the hill. And then here's the fourth sign that would be this is at the intersection of the Amity and University Drive near that shopping plaza. Yeah. I guess rafters isn't there anymore. Rafters used to be there. But yeah, that would also be on the eastbound side as you come up the hill. And so I have, that's kind of an overview. And then here are the kind of specific locations. So this is the one on the commons. It would kind of be where that path splits off. That cuts diagonal across the commons. And here is kind of, I didn't have the software to do like a photo rendering. So I just kind of drew a square roughly the height and size of the sign. But it would kind of be in this little wedge right here in front of the telephone pole. There's a little bit of a slant here down. So it would have to kind of ride that. So with that green sign that says Amherst Center next right then be taken down, are we going to eliminate some of the plethora of signs? We can ask DPW to do that, yeah. Yeah, I would. It's going to be all cluttered. We don't need one more sign there if we're going to keep that up. Because there's like the old wayfinding sign. There's still wayfinding system. There's still remnants of that downtown as well. So yeah, this would be the commons location as you're approaching from behind. This is the Dickinson location. Just saw that. This is the intersection of Amity Street and University Drive. And which side is that going to be on now? Is that going to be? I know we discussed that before. Which one? I'm going to be on the northeast corner. Is it now on the southeast corner? Even on the southeast corner, we tried to speak to the university. We did speak to the university about putting it on their property on the north side of the road. And they would not have anything to do with it. They do not want that sign on their property. They already have some signs welcoming people to the university there. So this is really the only option that we have. And the decisions that need to be made are exactly how to place this and how to angle it. So it's appropriately seen from University Drive going north and from Amity Street going east. Will you be able to see the one on Route 9 when you're at the signal for University Drive so that you'll know that going to town, you should go straight? Because if you turn left and come up University and you don't see this, you'd end up on UMass campus instead of turning right on Amity Street. Yeah. So that sign will be visible when you're at the signal at University and Route 9? Well, yes, I think it would be. But we're also exploring another alternative, which is I think it's Haskins Meadow. Is that right then? Yeah, Harkins Meadow. Harkins Meadow. So that's an apartment complex. It's just west of the intersection that Jen was referring to. And we're asking them if they would agree to having a sign on their property, but that may not work. Yeah, the Route 9 location's gotten a little bit more complicated because this is the state right of way. So we have to get permission, like an access permit to UMass DOT. It's not locally controlled. And then there's also proposed construction on this stretch of Route 9 for in the coming years. I'm not sure. But so in conversations with them, yeah, this is a blown up construction document. We had initially proposed the sign to this red area right here. And then they informed us that, I guess, this there's like a giant pole that's going to be placed here for the new signals. So they proposed we move it back here. And they'd be willing to grant the permit for that. And to Jen's point, that it's pushing it further back from the intersection. So you would obviously see it if you're coming straight. If you're in the left-hand turn lane, you wouldn't see it, I don't. Yeah. Yeah, then this is the kind of rendering that they provided, especially. I think this is a little taller than the six foot sign. Also, you've almost finished crossing the intersection by then. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So yeah, actually, I sent an email today to the owners of Hawkins Meadow to see if they'd be willing to place the sign on their property. Are you all familiar with where that is? Yep. And right after that, Amherst-Matelle entrance. Right. Not Amherst-Matelle. And another property owner that you might be able to reach out to is U Drive South LLC, which is owned by Barry. Right. Yeah, Chris mentioned that, too. I was a little reluctant to say that that would be possible because I think they probably would want to, well, I mean, we can ask them. But they still have to build their whole development there. And they're not going to want to sign there while they're under construction. They may want to see what it's going to be like before they agree to having a sign there. Sure. This is the development that's going where that house is on the corner, the breakout. OK. If it went there, would that be soon enough to catch people so that they would go straight? Right. Because that's what I was thinking, that corner development would be. What better than on the other side of the intersection if you put it at the very. Yeah, I'm not. I don't think there's any good place for this side. But I'm wondering, though, in all seriousness, if we had a little piece that they would give us where that apartment building's going, would that be soon, would that be enough time for a person coming into Amherst for the first time to make a decision? You know what I mean? I'm sure Seth and Ben and Chris would have to look into that system that makes sense for factoring in, like, speed. And the. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know. There's really not a good, I don't know. It could work. It could actually work. Well, maybe, I mean, it's important to have a nice-looking sign coming up, Route 9, if we can. But if we can, maybe we should put that sign someplace else. Where's the actual boundary? Is it where the sign says welcome to Amherst? Or is it before that? Is it west of that? You mean the town boundary? Yeah. The town boundary is west of Spelute Motors. It's in the middle of Big Y. Yes, that's right, about there. Because Big Y is split in half, yeah. Well, it's also west of, it's west of the pizza place. So the pizza place is in Amherst. Which pizza place? Domino's, to me. Domino's, right. Domino's. So it actually, yeah, beyond this, Greenleaf's driveway, all the way on the other side of, there it is. Okay. So, and we can't put it there, or somewhere close to there. Would Greenleaf's let us put one, and like on the lawn right there? Greenleaf's is very problematic. Also, I think that would be too far away from the intersection. Yeah, I mean, I think the Hawkins Meadow has this big, expansive lawn. Well, this is Hawkins Meadow. I can't even know what that is. That's a good idea. I was thinking once I'm right here. Yeah. Which if it's either at the eastern edge of their property, get the western edge of the development that Roberts is doing. So, same basic place, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you're in the right lane and you're not a good driver, you may think it's too late to move over to the left lane. At least you'd know to go straight to town. Yeah. I mean, if you're going to the university, you're using your Google Maps anyway. Yeah, I was gonna ask. I think I'm just, I have not sat in on all of the siting conversations, but I know early on one of the main concerns was trying to help direct or capture, if you will, visitors to the university, right? So people who go to UMass and they're in and they're out and they don't even touch downtown or they even know it's there, right? Like getting more of those people in town. So as I'm thinking through this, I'm thinking anyone who takes a left here on University Drive is set on getting to UMass anyway, they're gonna take that turn and then they are gonna see that sign at the foot of the ant. That's right, they're gonna see the next sign. Maybe. Hopefully we'll be like, oh, okay, great. I'll, you know, as I come back after I drop my kit off at the dorm, maybe I'll circle back and I'll take that turn up the hill. I guess where I'm going with that is that everyone else, anyone who's not intent on making that drop off or getting into campus is gonna be going straight anyway. And then, you know, it's surprising to me that people wouldn't notice or think to, you know, that see downtown to their left and head into town, but is there value in having something at the top of the hill there before that intersection with 116 to let people know like, you can turn left here and there's a whole lot going on in the same way that we're putting at the corner of the commons to catch people on route nine going both ways to say, like, head this way to town because I mean, this corner down at university and route nine has been tough, it's really tight and it's, I don't know if there's somewhere up here that makes sense. We were gonna propose like a directional post sign on at this corner. I wanna back up a little bit. We have to be careful here because it was all owned by Emmer's College and we did approach them at one point in the past about putting a welcome sign here and they were not positive about that location at all. We were very negative about that. But it's gonna be right across the intersection on the left there, right, on the commons. So it will, once you get up here, you'll see. You won't see that one from this direction though. Yeah, it's gonna be facing south or southwest, isn't it? It's on the other corner. It's on the other corner coming up from the other corner. Oh, it's coming for when you're dropping last. I mean, I know that those of you who grew up in these kind of towns automatically think, oh, I'll see it and it'll be town. You know, when I first came in, I'm from Los Angeles. I thought I was in a residential neighborhood. I didn't think I'd be in town yet. Yeah. It wasn't town, you know? So allow for people coming from Boston or New York or something, this doesn't look like town town. Sorry. It's a common. It's clearly town. But Ben and Chris, you had, you were thinking about citing a directional sign in this vicinity that would have a arrow that would say downtown or Amherst College left and then Amherst College right and Amherst, Hampshire and Amherst right and, mm-hmm. I think a directional sign takes up a lot less room. So I wouldn't be able to get them to agree to that but to putting, you know, a sign that's four feet wide up here. They just wouldn't. Three of the four corners belong to Amherst College? Is that right? No. The two corners on the east side of 116 belong to the town and the town. All right, because that's a continuation of the common that they use. Yeah. Amherst College maintains it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, what is it? Maybe we should be looking at those green signs. Like what does that green sign say with an arrow? Is that right, Amherst? That one's 16. There you go. Oh, Amherst Center, that says Amherst Center. How dumb are these drivers? There's a sign. Well, but the idea is that if we have a new directional system, that would come down and the way finding would replace it. So everything would come down. Yeah, well, I, yeah, there's two, yeah, I don't, yeah, I didn't realize that easy to take a directional. Yeah, that would be a good place. So for tonight's purposes, we're here to really look at firstly the design of the way of the welcome sign and then provide recommendations for the design and then also for the locations. So what are, is that correct? So what are people's thoughts about the welcome sign at University Drive? If it were to remain as proposed. So I guess, is that where the blue, is that what's being currently proposed? That's what Mas DOT is like willing to agree to at this point. So what does the board feel about that location and if the town can get, and then a second sort of location, if you will, if people are agreeable is the Hawkins Meadows or the Barry Roberts property somewhere within that vicinity, whatever. Good, that would be the best, I think the best. That should be our recommendation if you can actually pull it off. Yeah, so do people recommend this blue location? Not really. Jane, no. Catherine. The blue, as shown on the slide, what are folks feel about the blue location? Just worry about the construction schedule. I don't, oh yeah, okay. Yeah, I think that that could really interrupt. I think it could. And maybe we could get it on the. Yeah, they had their construction engineer, you know, look at this as well. And so, you know, they didn't say explicitly, but like they were well aware of the construction. So would people feel that your first choice would be the other location that we looked at Hawkins Meadows slash Barry Roberts? And if that didn't work out, then would folks be agreeable to this being the second option? Yeah, if that's the only other one. It seems like that would be the only option. I'm just trying to move this along. Yeah, move it along because. Okay, so I'm going to type it. I'm going to write first option Hawkins Meadows. I feel like that's the name of the school in. In Strangers Things. Okay, so Hawkins Meadows slash Barry Roberts is your, and please chime in. I guess we will do a motion and stuff in such so you vote. And then the second runner up location would be the blue spot, which is on Northampton Road as indicated on the slide. Yeah. Okay. Do folks want to, we can wait to do motions at the very end, but is that what I'm in general hearing from everyone? Well, isn't there a third option instead of having it so far back? Would they be willing to let us put it in an angle on this corner across the street then? So it'd be closer to the intersection like where that 93 is. Is that a lane? That is a lane right there. Yeah, that's, yeah, I can't see this. Up on the sidewalk then, whatever. So that at least when you're sitting at the intersection, you could see it because it's so far east. I don't see the point. Ben, can you go to Google street? Cause I feel that, doesn't a realtor own the building there. I feel like that's right against the sidewalk. I could be wrong. Oh, just right there. Yeah, what do folks feel about that? Well, there's so much stuff over there. Look how many signs there are there. Yeah. I just, I don't know if you would really. I think it has to be pretty wide road. Like I'm not sure if you're going. How about up in this other corner, the, what about that? Go through the intersection and right. What about in the median? Can we not use that median to the right on? Oh, Sunbeam hit him with a car. Yeah. No, not there. Not there. When you take a right to go into snow. There. I think that would be of blocking. Yeah. They're redesigning that, aren't they? A bit. Uh, not. Not that piece. Well, actually, maybe slightly, slightly, maybe. Wouldn't have to stick out into the street there. It could be behind where that black car is. You know, it doesn't have to be. Yeah, right there. Wouldn't that work? Would they let us put it there? I don't know, Chris, whether you've ever talked to him about the rights of that, that strip, you know? Yeah. I mean, we probably wouldn't, couldn't. No, not there, but yeah, over there. Yeah. I know that seems a little far off if you're driving up. Yeah. Well, it's a lot further west than what they're proposing. Yeah. And just to the right of the signal post, you know. For the little tree yard. Yeah. Yeah. I think that would be a conversation with the DPW superintendent and whether something like that could be allowed. Chris, do you have any experience? I had no idea whether they would go for that. I suspect that they're going to consider it an obstruction. Yeah, stop plowing. But it's also going to be a visual obstruction to people entering and exiting that road there. Well, OK, if you don't like my idea, then go back to the original motion. So with that, it would be the look. No one can see my finger pointing at my screen, but it would be if you see, I guess, heading east. Ben, if you can indicate where that blue spot would be. Oh, yeah. That would be like here, probably somewhere. Yep. So it's going to be a sidewalks right now. So there or somewhere at the boundary between Barrymore's property and the Hawkins Meadow property, which is basically around where this vegetation is. A little bit to the right, west, whatever. Yeah. OK. I think that's, in my mind, the best location. If you can get to this far up on Hawkins Meadow as you can. No. OK. All right, so that's the idea. Guilford came up with that. Yeah. Yeah, and there's no other signs around, and it's nice green. Yeah. Yeah, it's not really nice. Especially if you do it. All right, so can we go move on to the next location, which would be did we discuss? Well, we did briefly discuss the Amity and University drive folks OK with that as shown. Yeah, University. Oh, yeah. Well, is it facing due west, or is it tilted to the south at all? Yeah, it's going to be a little bit tilted, so people coming this way can see it. It's not ideal, but it's like we've got these signs, and none of them are in really good locations. It feels like if you've already seen the Welcome 2 down on Route 9, both directions, maybe this should just be the wayfinding. A directional sign. Yeah, with directionals. Yeah, yeah. You wouldn't need that, because it's not really facing anybody major coming. It's not a major road coming along there. We'd save money, Chris. Yeah. I think that's a good solution. Other folks? Oh, I totally agree. OK, Catherine agrees. Anyone else? One less sign like that. So are you saying, can I just say, I'm sorry, I have to go. Is there, I apologize, I just need to go. So is there anything that I can comment on or motion that needs resolving? And then like a couple of minutes. No, I think we'll start with us, and we'll use it how we want to. OK, I mean, I think you've heard my comments overall, and I apologize, but I do have to leave. Sure, thank you. Thank you, Lindsay. Thank you, Lindsay. All right, so if I'm hearing correct, I've heard from two people saying, oh, Erica, how do you feel if this sign at Amity and New Drive was instead a directional sign? Pretty fine with that. There is something kind of romantic about marking the four corners of downtown, but I think, unfortunately, we don't have the kind of downtown that has that clarity. And if at this point we could direct people to the downtown, but then also point out some other opportunities to engage museum sites and things, then a wayfinding sign would be fine. The wayfinding signs, they're printed on both sides, right? Yeah, but not necessarily, because in some cases they have different destinations on the opposite side. For this one, it could show both coming down university and going up it that downtown is that way. Yeah, to that point, I was going to suggest, I don't know, this is not saving money, this is adding money, is to do a two-sided welcome sign here that faces North and South. So you could have a perfect opportunity and have it read really clearly from both sides. But honestly, I think a directional will be fine. But if we're looking to optimize visibility and capture that college-bound traffic, that seems like a crucial intersection and seems like maybe a place to, oh yeah, two-sided. Right now it's facing eastbound traffic, neither north nor south. Well, right, it's facing eastbound exactly, right, which is not busy. If you had a directional sign that had one of the flaps was printed back and front to face to point east, and then one of the flaps was painted to face point north to front. You know what I mean? You do the all four directions. Yes, thank you. I can't say it all. Now, so we've heard from board members saying it might make more sense that this location be directional and then it'd be double-sided to accommodate whatever is in that direction. Now, does any Ben and Chris, so, well, firstly, Seth, you said that financially, I mean, does it matter on a financial perspective whether we swap this out from a welcome sign to a directional? I don't know if that's even something that we need to consider, but. Yeah, it will save money. It will. But was there, we have enough money. I think we have, oh, we got a bid from ArtFX, was around $30,000, so we have, you know, $50,000 left. So we could conceivably put a two-paneled sign here and have one panel facing Amity Street going from eastbound direction and one panel facing University Drive if we wanted to do that. It could be like an L shape. Yeah, there is enough money. Well, I think it would be cheaper to do just a single sign, single pair of posts and just have the two-sided text so that. Yeah, but that only handles in our south, it doesn't handle people coming from the west. That's true, I was letting them go. Not that many, that's how I enter town, but I don't know. The white truck is, the white truck is coming from the west. Well, I mean, what Chris said, you know, if you had an L-shaped, so the truck would see one coming towards town and then your other one could still be painted on both sides for the rest of the day. Maybe could, yeah, sure. Or you actually just do two- We have $20,000 to burn here, right, Chris? That's right. Let me, instead of the one on Route 9 at Hawkins, we do like a big banner over the whole intersection. Yeah. And what's that that I take it on? Don't spend the money, not to worry. Not my money, I'm happy. And then so, although I am, you know, hearing that people would prefer directional, is anyone in this meeting staff or members or here's your opportunity to make your case of, yes, no, we still want the welcome sign. Am I hearing anyone that still wants to advocate for that? Well, I see a space for it right by that tree and right there, yeah. If we could have a double one, I mean an L-shaped one, like Chris said, one side painted both sides and the other one one side, I mean, that'd be great. That'd be even better than a directional sign. But I just didn't know if we could afford that. Yeah, I don't know. So I think let's try to go for the L-shaped welcome sign here. Okay. And if we can't get that for some reason, we'll go with the post-directional sign. How's that? Okay. Okay, so that would be the first choice. So first choice is the L-shaped welcome. Second choice, if for some reason that just doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons, then the would be a directional post-sign. Yeah. Double-sided, okay. Since, yep. I'm writing this down. If I don't write it down, then I don't remember. Okay, so now the fourth, let's see here. Did we, we talked about Emily Dickinson's sign location. The fourth one. And what is the fourth one? I can't remember. I got in the comments. And the thing we talked about that. And was everyone fine with the town, the south east? Well, if they could clear out some of those other signs. I mean, there's a telephone pole and there's that telephone pole and throwing our sign in there. Just, I mean, it should, you know, like the whole thing to look good. I'd be surprised if we can, oh yeah. The town will just take this green thing out. I'd be very surprised. Well, the only up next left is gonna have to stay. Exactly. But the Amherst Center, which is already crooked anyway. Right. If they take, yeah, that would help a bit. Fine. Yeah. Yeah, all right. Fine there. All right, so sign is, this one is good. All right. So I think we have now spoken, we've now, you've all have discussed each of the locations. We've just discussed the designs. Were there any other parts of this that we're gonna talk tonight? There's the whole wayfinding system downtown, directional posts. Okay, directional posts in their locations. We could come back at another time if people don't have time to finish that tonight. Basically, I'm gonna, you know, there's like 30 more slides presenting the locations downtown and kind of the proposed destinations and directions that would be pointed out at each location. Yeah, that's a lot. So it is kind of a lot. But going along with that, and I hear this from people and I observed this myself, is there so many old cluttery signs? Yeah. And I wouldn't endorse any more signs until there is definite proposal to remove some of the rest of those signs because that's just as ridiculous. So, are folks still, I don't know, this meeting started at five, it's 6.30. Do folks want to delve into the directional signs tonight or should this be continued to a future meeting date? I'm available. All staff members come to another meeting, especially Chris and Ben, because they don't usually have to come to our meetings. Can we do this efficiently so they can finish off? Yeah. How's everyone else feel? Sure. Yeah, I'm fine with that. Okay. Let's see how we go and let's aim to be efficient. How about that? Okay. Yeah, it sounds good. Yeah, I'll just jump right in. Basically, you've seen the schematic for the directional post system. And so for each location, I work with Chris and Maureen and other planning staff in general to kind of figure out what we're going to point to and what's the best way to get there so which route to pick. And then we kind of did a site visit downtown, walk around and try to pick some of the most important locations to intercept people. And again, I think a bigger topic here is whether these are geared towards pedestrians or vehicles. I think that was something I kind of struggled with throughout and that affects which way they're oriented sometimes. So that's something to be conscious of. So this first sign is along Kendrick Park. I guess this is technically a triangle street extension that sits right here. And so it would be to intercept people as they're walking downtown and Vestrian, or sorry, and cars as they enter the roundabout. There was discussion of a lot of students do take this shortcut. So we were talking about putting a sign at this corner but then a lot of drivers don't necessarily take this shortcut. So we settled on maybe just putting the sign in this corner of Kendrick Park. And so that would be kind of as you're approaching downtown, it would be like somewhere in this area. And so what it would point out would be, let's send you to downtown town hall, Jones Library. It can send you straight along triangle street to Dickinson Museum, Amherst Cinema. We have the Chamber of Commerce and the bid to have that visitor center, which is an important place for people entering downtown Amherst College and Hampshire College. When you get to the bottom of triangle street and you hit main street, will there be something that points you to turn right if you don't see the big welcome sign in front of the property? At this point, no, I don't think so. But that's, yeah, that's something I consider certainly. I'm trying to think there are randomly around town a few different Dickinson signs. I guess you can't go straight. So you're going to sit there trying to decide whether you go left or right. If you turn to the right, you'll see the big sign. Yeah, exactly. I feel like these signs, I mean, clearly anybody who sees them regarding it, regardless of how they're moving about will be informed, but that we probably should be thinking of these as for the pedestrian. That will help us to make some decisions about their location. So if we say we are prioritizing the pedestrian reader, then you might want to back this one up. I have another kind of bigger question and that is who gets to decide who gets a sign? Everybody loves Amherst Cinema, but I also love Hastings. Like, why are they the only nonprofit? That's good point. There are some things Atkins Farm shows up numerous times and Atkins Farm North, which no longer even exists. Was there a group of citizens who got to weigh in on these or people paying for their... No, it was Ben and me walking around town thinking of what was important, where people might want to go. I think Amherst Cinema is one of the most hard to drive in, maybe. I mean, does the Amherst Cinema have a lot of out of town visitors? Whereas Atkins Market wouldn't, right, right? Yeah, I feel... Market has a lot of out of town visitors also, yep. Hastings, Hastings have a lot of out of town visitors. I think, I mean, Amherst Cinema is also a non-profit, educational institution, as opposed to, you know, purely for profit business. I think that was part of the discussion. And I think, I can't speak to this, but I think Chris mentioned that there's always a lot of calls about people not being able to find Amherst Cinema, just a little bit tucked back. Yeah, it's hard to see. I mean, if you say Atkins couldn't then bolt wood, say, well, wait a minute, what about us? We're a big, you know, out of town destination, even though they belong to Amherst College. So how about, yeah, I see the point here, but then how about parking? Should that be on there too? Or are you signing parking areas differently? Parking is on some of these signs, but not all of them. Okay. Yeah, the signs that are like most immediate to a parking lot do get a blue parking arrow. Why don't you just go through all of them, kind of one right after the other so we can kind of see them all and see the locations, and then maybe we can have a general discussion. Yeah, that sounds good. Okay. So this is a location kind of at the end of Kendrick Park, and I chose this location, because it's a, we point out the West Cemetery throughout the Wayfinding system. I do know what cemetery is spelled wrong, so we will change that. Yeah, it's in me. But basically this location intercepts people and can direct them through past this new development to the West Cemetery. And this is the first sign that's, most of them are two-sided, so just to give you a sense of, this would be as you're moving south, and then as you're moving coming north, this is what you would see. Oh, wait, sorry, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, but if Emily Dickinson Museum, you're continuing to head north, what's gonna tell you to turn right at Triangle? So, wait, I think I had it, yeah, I had it backwards. So this is, yeah, if you're moving south, if you're southbound, you'll see Dickinson Museum, and then you'll intercept. Yeah, some direction to the left. Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you'll see one of these signs down here. Okay. And so this is another location kind of, as you exit the parking garage on Main Street and Boltwood. And so, you would, yeah, then here we have like, you know, the parking sign showing up here, so as you're coming west. Where is this exact, remind me again, because... In front of Formosa? Yeah, in front of Formosa. Okay, oh yeah, all right, okay. Probably it would end up in this grass patch here. Okay. Yeah, sorry, I'm just a little blurry. So another sign would be at this corner. And you would, you know, be sent to Town Hall, Hammer's History Museum in these areas, you mask straight ahead. That's the most clear of all of them. Yeah, yeah, lots of different things to point to. And then this would be if you're moving south. You know, it'd send you straight to Hampton College, Amherst College. Right. Again, you know, the Eric Harlow Museum shows up here, that would send you to South Amherst. Now you did put Afghans there. Yeah, I think that's definitely still... I think it would be Spook Center. Oh, that's a good point, yeah. Yeah, we were struggling, we wanted to, we were struggling to think of South Amherst institutions. But yeah, the other Spook Center would be a great one. It may be more than Afghans, I don't know. I like Afghans, but yeah. Or maybe Afghans would like to subsidize. There you go, Jan. There's somebody who could subsidize the commercial. But the Yiddish Spook Center instead of Afghans. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think the Visitor Center's always gonna be a challenge because you know, it's stuck in there on South Pleasant Street. People are probably gonna look for something that stands out, they're not gonna find that Visitor Center, but that's done, you can do it here. Also, I just wanna say that there's panels for each of these locations. So let's just pretend that the building relocates to a different location. Or any of them, these panels can be swapped out in the future. And can we see the other side of this one real quick again, sorry. Okay. And this is where we possibly will be redoing the North Common, so where exactly are you placing it? Is it gonna have to be moved if we put our North Common plan into effect? It might have to be temporarily relocated. Okay. And then put back again. Okay. So, yep, and then kind of opposite diagonal from that intersection, there'd be a sign here at this corner. Same thing, similar kind of set of destinations in the Park West Cemetery, you know, and send you, they go right through parking and the parking lot there. And then as you're moving south, sending you to the South Amherst destinations, then also the Jones Library, the History Museum and Town Hall. And so, oops, sorry. This is basically, you know, at the Amherst Cinema Parking Lot, so a lot of people do park here. And then, you know, as people walk out of the parking lot intercepting them to send them to different destinations in Amherst. And I think, you know, this one also is visible from for drivers, like as they come into town, so kind of service both purposes. And, yeah, so, you know, can send you straight to the Dickinson Museum, Town Hall, the colleges are, you know, to the right and to the left. And then from the other side, you know, there's fewer destinations kind of out of town, but at this juncture, we can kind of send people into the cinema, to the library, to the History Museum or like right into this parking lot. And then kind of there's three signs that are dotted around this Route 9 intersection, Route 9 and 116. So the first one, you know, somehow, you know, be in this corner here, whether it's kind of up on this hill or kind of in this grass patch, we're not sure yet. You know, we would have to have that discussion with Amherst College, but what we're proposing here is to kind of, you know, send people downtown. So again, you know, this connects with our previous discussion about the welcome signs and if, you know, if people missed that welcome sign on Route 9. That's good, yeah. You know, this will point them to downtown and to different destinations. To UMass, if they missed left turn, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And this one brings up my other question and that's just about kind of like organizing the information that's here. If the arrow's pointing to the right, could all be on the right side of the sign? Yeah. The arrow's to the left all on this. Yeah, switch Amherst College and UMass. Yeah. And then there's the secondary question, which complicates things and that is should the things be grouped by typology, if you will, should the colleges be together? This is another way to organize, but should the browns be together and the whites be together? I think that the arrows are probably more important. I agree. I think it might make them harder to read if all the browns are together and all the whites are together. This way they sort of stand out from one another. But the signs on the right should point to the right and the signs on the left. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing that's our attention to. And okay, yep. So this is kind of coming along route nine past the commons. You know, you will have just seen that welcome sign and then, yeah, you'll be sent, you know, downtown town hall and generous library they could send. Amherst College. At the top of the hill. Yeah, at the top of the hill. And again, the things, it should switch. So the things on the right side of the sign are the things to your right. Yeah. Hampshire, Eric, Carl, maybe the Yiddish Book Center. Yeah. This college will be on the left, right? Can you do more than four or is that max? So right now the lowest, this is like six foot four off the ground. So you start, you know, six foot tall people might start bumping their heads. And, you know, I guess everything could be raised up. I think right now the top is at eight feet. Eight feet seems like I don't know if you want too much, too much, too much, too much height additional on top of that. Is there a code issue that needs to be checked on that for? Yeah, we need to check with the building commissioner at the low point. Right. Alrighty. And then this sign, let's see. Yeah, this sign is one sided. And then the last sign is as you're coming into town from 116. Yeah. It would be kind of like somewhere in this area and send you, you know, pretty much everything straight ahead except, you know, Amherst College. Oh yeah, well that's one thing we're talking about is like where does Amherst College actually want people to go? Because when you're at this corner, you know, you're kind of surrounded by Amherst College, but we figured, you know, so I think the admission center is down here. But I think that's something we'll reach out to them and just clarify that. And maybe step back far enough that you don't obscure those other signs at the corner. Yeah, exactly. You know, that intersection where Amherst College has some of the very best locations, but Amherst College is not very cooperative about letting signs go on their property. So I hope you can make it work because. You know, one of the things Amherst College is gonna say when they see this is they're gonna see signs for Eric Carl and maybe the Yiddish Quick Center and they're gonna say, well, what about our museum? Or what about our? Yeah, there you go. The Mead, huh? Yeah. The Mead, and what's the other one that's got the dinosaurs, you know? But then, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, Hitchcock can be found too, which is not found by them, but. I mean, technically they'll say those other museums are just part of Hampshire College. So why doesn't it just say Hampshire? Even though I would say, I think you're right, that more people are gonna be looking for the Eric Carl than for the Mead, but they might want that. Yeah. I think actually the Yiddish Book Center and the Eric Carl Museum own their property. Yeah, they're private, aren't they? From Hampshire and in the case of the Mead, it really is more part of Amherst College. Right. Yeah, yeah. I agree. So that'll be the answer when they say that. That's right. Yeah. And since Amherst College doesn't like signage. No, they don't like signage. Yeah, they're like, well. Like, oh, that's great. All right. So is this a good plan overall? Sure. Looks good to me. Yeah. It's a lot of hard work. Yeah, so what I heard from folks was, well, firstly, we just need to make sure that the locations and the heights meet the zoning by-law and building code. And then second is about just making the signs on the right should have the arrows on the right in vice versa left. Yeah, possible. Right. Yeah, impossible. Practice spelling of cemetery. Yeah. Change the Atkins to the Yiddish Book Center if possible. That's right. What else? I think, Eric, I mentioned maybe thinking about relocating this sign before Kendrick Hart to get the SRENs. Right. Yeah. I also think- Oh, sure, yeah, at North Pleasant Street, right? Yeah. Yeah. But that could also be at phase two, if that doesn't meet. Yeah. Isn't that actually Mass Ave at that point, not North Pleasant? Where? There's a little stretch right there. Yeah, I forget. That's North Pleasant. That's North Pleasant. And then it's North Pleasant as you go left until you get to the Baptist Church. It's North Pleasant when you go left, that's right. OK, I forget. It's so weird. OK, got it. Spelling Atkins. All right, yeah, that's all I got. Yeah, I think there'll be a couple other things that I'll suggest in terms of sequence. And there's some more considerations there, I think, in terms of what order they fall in. And I don't know. I feel like we should be, in light of not only like, there's some consideration around who gets in and who's in and who's out on these panels. But if we end up with more space in certain cases, or maybe I feel like we might want to think about more visibility for parking on some of these locations. And what about Groff Park, now that it's redone? There's like lots of parks, yeah. We've got two parks, but you don't have Groff. Right. I'm just thinking about our earliest, earliest complications with this group. And it was all about get people downtown and get them parked. And once they do that, there's a whole other system that we haven't unveiled yet for orienting people through town, you know, yosks and things like that. So I think it's generous. And I think it's not a disservice to direct people through the colleges and to cultural sites and things like that. But anyway, I think as long as we're taking care of, get people to downtown, get them parked. You know, that should address our number one problem. When do you hope to get these installed? Or when do you hope to have this finalized and install? Well, I think we'd like to have it finalized this fall. I don't imagine it's going to get installed this fall. But if we can make a good plan to get it installed in the spring, that'd be great. We're going to get the riders to walk in this fall. So DPW will be busy. So do we need to come back to you for these things, for more information about the post sign and more information about the welcome signs? Would you like us to come back to you? When you were going to email us the color, right, on the welcome signs? Yeah. That seems to be the biggest. That's the only thing. That and what does Jane say about her piece on that, the one on Main Street? OK. Yeah. Seth, you're going to do some mock-ups for her with a more cocoa color and stuff? So it sounds like it's really up to Ben and Seth and me to get this finalized, if you will. Pardon my use of that word. And then just show you what we're proposing to do in the color, right? OK. All right. Great. Otherwise, I would say we can go ahead and say we approve the directionals, pretty much, to stand with whatever you need to do to them, right? Right. Yeah. We've got confidence here. Do you all want to make a motion to give a positive recommendations with your comments regarding, well, further review about the Emily Dickinson sign, whether that background would have a cocoa background. And that could be done in an email. And then your other recommendations, such as the welcome sign at Amity University Drive, your first choice would be an L-shaped welcome sign at that location at Amity and University Drive. And then your second choice is, if that didn't work, would be a double-sided directional sign with posts. And then about the welcome sign on Route 9 and University Drive, you would like that sign to be at, basically, we're Barry Roberts and Hawkins Meadows. robbery is your first choice. The second choice would be as presented tonight. And then we just covered all of your comments for the directional sign, such as it needs to be in the bill code, fixing the spelling mistake. Ackens is now the Yiddish Museum, and consider providing directional signs at the North Plus. Yeah, where Ben's pointing. And then the arrows make those uniformed by each sign, if possible. So can you say that you recommend approval of the welcome signs as presented with the comments that Maureen made and that you will approve the color via email unless you can't come to an agreement on that, and then we'll come back to a meeting? Because I think if we do it all by email, then there's no vote to approve or to recommend. Right. So can I just say so moved? Sure. OK, thank you. OK, you want a second? Yeah, I'll give you a second. OK. OK, shall we need to? So I should take a. Any discussion? If you want, you can do the roll call. What's up? I don't want to open another. I have one last discrepancy I want to clear up that's been, and I want to also minimize how many times we have to come back. But in some places where on welcome signs we've been referring to the downtown as town center and on the directional signs we're using downtown. And this has been like this is an ancient city. I'm hoping we can settle. So I don't know, Chris, if there was a decision made and maybe it didn't make it to me, or if this group is the one make that choice, but I just wanted to. A good point. I think the town manager should make the choice. And what does the sign at the roundabout say? I believe that we will in downtown there. So let me talk to him about that. And I just say that as somebody from a big city, I think you should say town center. It ain't no downtown. Yeah. Town one is a little bigger than it is. Right. Yeah. And let's just say that the town manager makes his decision one way or the other. So ultimately it's the town manager's decision. And I guess the DRB doesn't need to weigh in on that conversation. Well, or we could say we would prefer town center. Yeah, it can be part of the motion. Yes. Yes. And does everyone on the board feel that way? Like Erika? Yeah, I agree that would be. You agree. OK, prefer a town center, not downtown. OK. I think the reason the bid went with downtown is because that's part of their email, isn't it? Amherst Downtown or something? Yeah. Yeah. Right. So OK. OK. We do a roll call of. Yeah. OK. OK. So Lindsay's not here. Janet. Yes. I. Erika. I. And myself, Catherine. I. Great. Great. Thanks. Staff and Seth for staying so long after normal hours. Yeah. Thank you very much for your. It's a lot of work. Recommendations. We just, did we just eye on the, we voted on the. Motion. Yeah, but that was about the welcome signs that we have to have. It was everything that. OK. Maureen said, I just so. OK. Great. Thank you. Even the center versus downtown, we added that. OK. And one last thing for the record, that it's not for lack of love or appreciation for places like Atkins Farm, but I think that as a town, we want to promote the cultural institutions. Yeah. Above the retail. Yeah. And actually, they'll benefit beautifully. Anybody who goes to Hampshire College or the Eric Carle, they're going to end up at Atkins, I guess so, without even advertising. We need more panels. Hitchcock Center. All right. Well, I don't have any other items on the agenda. Does anyone have any announcements or other? Well, we didn't get public. Is there anybody from the public who's been listening in? Do you have anybody? Let me look. Nope. OK. All right. Good. Zach, we'll probably be talking about the writer's walk soon because the bid should be in any day. I think, right, Chris? They were due. That's what Nate tells me. Yep. Good. Then we'll be refining the details. Be in touch. Great. OK. Is there any other business? You don't have anything else there, do you, Maureen? No. OK. I moved to adjourn. Oh, thank you. OK. Is there a second? OK. They moved and seconded by somebody. I said, you don't know. OK. The meeting is officially over. It's really an interesting and a lot of work.