 Rhaffa defnyddu, cos rhaffa was, rhaffa was universtri ddim o, ddim anodd i'r dda, nobody wanted the, no you know, all very few people were, were dancing for joy when we got rhaffa ben it is, let's be honest on it, it did represent a dach, a dach byr y fawr, a history didn't it? Yeah, I think that there's a, the Norwich game isn't it, when he was caught sort of smiling as Norwich were kind of beating us, I think there's a, there's a moment there, I think a lot, a lot of Evertonians feel that, that's the moment that they felt most disconnected from the club in kind of their Everton life where Welcome to Toffy TV, I am delighted to say I'm joined by author Evertonian Jim Keogh, Jim, how are you? I'm good, thanks, thanks for having me. Pleasure mate, pleasure, this should have happened before Christmas but different things have delayed it but delighted to say you are joining us so happy new year mate. Yeah, and to you. Let's hope it's a happy new year for Everton this year as well. No more, not in like 2023, I'd like it a lot happier than that. But obviously I've got you on to discuss your latest book, you've already got a couple of books that are out so make sure you check Jim's books out, they are Everton's Greatest Games. This one I love the title of Highs, Lowes and Bachiocos, the quality title and Everton number 9s, they're already out there. We've had Jim in the studio a few years ago to discuss, was it the greatest games that we discussed? I think it was, yeah. Yeah, I've had Jim in before to talk about that but his latest book is called Everything You Wanted to Know About Everton but brackets were afraid to ask. So Jim, what was the idea behind your latest book then? So the idea was to create a book that kind of as the title suggests encompasses everything so it's kind of our greatest games, our greatest moments, our greatest players. But also to give the full kind of Everton experience, I wanted to include the not-so-good moments, we've got the delegation fights, the periods of delegation and also kind of the darker or the funnier negative side of being evertonian. So there's the Everton moments, it's our greatest hate figures, it's our worst players as long as they're alongside our greatest players. So hopefully the idea is when you've finished it you've got a fuller understanding of what Everton are, what it is to be an evertonian and sort of why we are the way we are as well. How do you go about a book like this? Cos obviously Everton have got a huge history, there's lots of things that I'm sure you've had to leave out in there, good and bad. So how do you begin that process going through Everton's history of thinking yeah, this makes it into the book and this doesn't? Obviously there's stuff that has to go in, so obviously you've got the league titles, the FA Cups, the moments that have been fantastic in our history. A lot of it I talk to other Evertonians, I go on social media, I talk to Blues that I know, especially with the more modern parts of the club and just say like you know, example who are the five figures we hate the most, you get your canvas opinion, you can't get a consensus but you fight that in between. Obviously Liverpool players come up in that so you have your five worst Liverpool players and your five players beyond that. Some of the worst moments, again you ask people and it's a case rate of kind of whipping it down, it means about 50,000 metres of books so there's a lot in there. But I'm sure I've missed out certain bits, I'm sure I've missed out some people's favourite bits. You can't ever get kind of a, as I said, full of consensus of what is great, what is not great but hopefully there's nothing there to kind of give you an idea of kind of whatever now. To give you that background, yeah. I mean that is, go on, give us one of the, give us just one name out of like the five most hated who is in there. It depends on age, that's a weird thing, so younger blues, it's obviously named like Gerard and Carragher. You go further back and you get different names, you know, like Jimmy Cason, different names popping up. I think when it comes to kind of hate figures, Gerard is kind of, he seems to kind of, he does something amongst the Italians, they're respected of age so he's the one who really kind of sticks out. But it's interesting because everyone, you form this kind of emotional relationship with a player that you don't like and it's very strong and it's weird how it, when you form it can dictate how it lasts and that kind of stuff. But it's an interesting conversation to have with the Vittonians, I think. It is weird, isn't it? We do have that hate figure, but like you say it does something. I think Stephen Gerard, do you think because he was such a good player as well, it made it way. Because he's got that, you know, he's a cop, eating all that and war and everything, kit as a kid or whatever that means. But he was such a good footballer, but he also had that snide, didn't he? And he had that delight of scoring against us and he always seemed to drag them through big games against us, even when I've got to say some of the worst Liverpool teams I've ever seen, they still managed to get one over on Everton and invariably it was him who dragged them through it. So do you think it is that has, you know, transcended across different ages of Evertonians because he was such a good footballer as well? Yeah, I think that definitely plays a part and I think it's, you know, not being hated, it's a fine line to walk. Some Liverpool players have kind of done it. I don't think Gerard made any attempt to even try and kind of, you know, walk that line. He, from the very start, he was clear. So that kind of, yeah, I think it's a case of he didn't try, there were those moments when he dragged them through and also, yeah, I think often when they're good players, there's always elements of, Jesus, that hate them and they're all so good as well. Yeah, that gives you that little extra bit of pet, so doesn't it, on the fire. In terms of the good stuff, or sorry, now let's stick with the bad stuff first. What other kind of things can we find in that? Obviously you talked about relegation. Is the relegation battles in there? Have you covered any of them? Cos they're obviously massively depressing as it being managers, as it just being players who just weren't good, as it being those moments in semi-finals, Sylvan Distan moments, if any of them got into the book, or were they up for discussion, even if they didn't make it in the book? I think pretty much all those things that you've mentioned are in the book. Give us one of them to him. Obviously don't give your stuff away, but give us one of them who made it into that waste 11. Just one name. Sim again, it takes by age, but Brett Angel is one that comes up a lot. Poor Brett. Get dragged into everything. He's a bad player, I think, at a tough time. For a lot of people, he's almost symbolised those dark years of the 90s. Him from the past, I think recently, because it's fresh in the memory, people talk about Morpey and Sandra Omeres, because they're more current on it, so they get mentioned quite a lot, whether they'll be the same in 20 years' time. Brett Angel seems to really stick in the mind. He's the polkster, boy. All those moments are in there. The relegation escapes are weird, I think, because they're obviously very dark moments, but actually for fans who are there, they're huge emotional times, where it's not quite a celebration, but it's kind of relief and a sense of happiness. It's not as dark as going down in the 50s and the 20s, but it's same. The times when we were relegated are there as well. I think you have to include alongside the great managers we've had, you have to include people like Walker and Benitez and Lampard, the really poor managers that we've had in our history, which, unfortunately, there have been quite a few, especially in recent years. Yeah, I mean, some terrible. A bit harsh putting Frank in there, I think. Raffa, definitely, because Raffa was universally the manager that nobody wanted. Very few people were dancing for joy when we got Raffa Benitez, let's be honest, and it did represent a dark bit of our history, didn't it? Yeah, I think that the Norwich game, isn't it, when he was sort of smiling as Norwich were kind of beating us. I think there's a moment there. I think a lot of Evitomians feel that that's the moment that they felt most disconnected from the club in kind of their Everton life, where not only did you feel ever more awful on the pitch, but you had in charge somebody, you just had no affinity with them. It felt almost like an insult that he was being put there by a really callous board at the time. That's a really dark moment in our modern history. Again, I think that you've got to include that it plays a part in forming the Mark Nevatomian as well. No, I think you're spot on there because it is. With Lampard, I think most Evitomians liked them, but it wasn't working and you always felt like he 100% wanted to get it right, but it just wasn't happening. Even like Marco Silva, I still think ever, and probably jumped the gun a little bit with Marco Silva and he's doing great now with Fulham. You'd always felt he wanted to get it. He was trying to get it right. He almost looked like little boy lost at the end of his reign. But Raffaid, Raffaid just had still had that arrogance that even in that knowledge game, they were bottomed, they were dreadful. They haven't won for about three months. And he's still had that arrogance going into that game and around that game. I think you'd like those shots of him smirking. Did make you think, he's defo, he's defo, come here to try and get us relegated. I'm sure it wasn't the case, but that's certainly how it felt. You feel it, can't you? Flipping from that to the good stuff. Obviously Everton have had a lot of good stuff in the history. It's a long time now since we've had real good stuff, but picking those moments was that a difficult task? Because like you said, everyone will go, well, people you speak to, that should be in there. That should be in there. How do you whittle that process down? Did you test it with people and go, what do you think? Or did you just say, look, this seems to be where a lot of the consensus of opinion is and I'll go with that. Well, I mean, luckily I've written kind of Everton's greatest game, so I have kind of a handle on kind of the, I know certain moments you've got to include there. You've got to have Bayern in there. But I've had the league titles in there, the Everton Cup wins. And you also get kind of just moments within those things like the man you five-nil where it seems to capture something special. But I think Bayern's the one. When you talk to any Evertonian of a certain age, he was kind of around the time, they say there's something magical about that night and what it meant for the club and what it meant for the fan base. So it's really, I find, kind of whittling down the kind of, the good moments, almost less enjoyable than the kind of bad moments. Really? Yeah, I think because, I don't know, there's almost like a perverse joy in kind of going through the dark moments whereas when everyone's kind of happy, maybe it's not as enjoyable. But as you said, there are lots of great moments from our past and it is nice when I've been writing this to kind of, because the last few years I haven't been easy for Evertonians. So it's a nice new mind sometimes to go back and you forget just how massive a club Everton have been and kind of how much success we've had and how we've always been in amongst a part of them a few seasons here and there when we've gone down and maybe the last about 20, 25 years. We've always been part of the conversation at the top and it's easy to forget that when they get belittled in the press and things haven't been great on and off the pitch. But actually, you know, from football's foundation Everton are a big deal. Is that, for someone like yourself when you are like reshating it again and kind of like you've said you've obviously got the greatest games and the other stuff as well. The number nine which is an iconic thing with Everton, isn't it? A huge thing with Everton Football Club. Why Aruna Coney was ever giving it, I will never know and I still fume over it. And the highs, lows and back. Haven't all of that researched acknowledging your brain anyway as well as obviously being an Evertonian and knowing a lot of this stuff anyway. Does it reiterate to you that what has gone on in the last few years and the way we have kind of slipped and all that? Does it kind of reiterate how big Everton are and does it drive a frustration in you that we are where we are at the moment? Do you know what I mean given our history and I know you can't just stay on history but Everton's history is huge and until Manchester City win the league this season there's still only one as many titles as Everton has been as good as what they've been in recent times so does it do that for you or is that already stored anyway just how big Everton are? I think the frustration is definitely there because when you look at the vast span you realise how Everton took the right after ball Everton were always part of the elite always kind of winning trophies decades and pretty much in the hunt for things and then you've got this drop off from around I guess from the birth of the Premier League as a club taking our right after ball and slip behind and it's frustrating to think will we ever get back what we had it seems unlikely even if things are covered in me getting you ground getting a better financial footing are we ever going to be what we were in the 20s, 30s, 60s or 70s, 80s and you think yeah probably not and it's quite sad because whilst we are a fantastic club with a storied history and I'm sure we'll win a trophy again that's just because everyone wins trophies at some point theoretically you get that horrible feeling that it's never going to be like it was and you can look at there are multiple reasons why the funding might seem quite sloppy as a football club whereas our former players have raced ahead that frustration has always been there I think I've always been aware of it but the more you dive into our past you realise that we've had this magical history and you feel like unfortunately it's just going to be history from now on I think the thing as well there's two parts to me next bit for you but one of them is Everton of all when you go back historically Everton have never really built and created a dynasty after we've been very successful in our history we've won the title when the Premier League started Everton was still the second at won the league the second most times I think after Liverpool well certainly went last time Liverpool one day before the Covid one the last league title in 1990 I think Everton was second on nine on nine league championships and obviously was surpassed by the likes of Arsenal and stuff since then United but so we've never really built on success I think a lot of people who you talk to who are much older than me when I was a kid I can remember the 80s it was amazing but before then people said well when we won it in 70 we didn't build on it when we won it in the 60s we didn't build on it and stuff like that that's the first thing we've never really we never created that dynasty maybe we could have done in the 80s without the European ban and everything else but also on top of that I think your point is really important is that when you look back at our history you do that again I actually think there's zero chance of it we may get a situation Aston Villa are flying right now they've had a tremendous year they're probably for me the team of 2023 and now that seems a bit mad to say cos City were unbelievable and won all in trophies and City were but I expect City to be there I think Villa are only second to Manchester City in point accumulated in 2023 so they've been incredible they could have a less the city year this year not saying they will and I still think Man City will win it and Liverpool are obviously right up there but they could have a less the city year but I think for teams like Villa Everton we saw it with Leicester we might see it with the odd older team to be able to stay there because of the way football is now the finances that everybody else has it's almost impossible isn't it even if they won the league this year well I say I don't know if I can't put words in your mouth but I wouldn't guarantee they being a title race next season or the top four because do you think that's just the way football is developed now with money and sponsors and of course the rules, the PSR rules in the Premier League as well Definitely I think those rules are sort of preserved football an aspect I think there's you've got your elite teams now and as you said the issue is obviously teams can have a good season and a team beyond the elite can win an FA Cup they can win a league cup they might qualify for the Champions League they might even win an elite title but I mean I think Leicester are a good example that Leicester won the league and then within what how many seasons being consistently I think the elite teams can make mistake after mistake after mistake as a man you have proved and then pick it up and get back in the morning but I think for those outside we sort of get one chance and you've got to get everything right and even then you've got to do it again and again and again I don't know how clubs outside that kind of protective bubble of the big six how you consistently break into that and then you become an elite member I guess Newcastle is going to be a good test for that because they technically have unlimited money can't spend it freely will they be the one who can consistently do it because they can sort of fort make mistakes down the line but yeah I think you're right it seems impossible that Everton will ever be what we wear and again which is frustrating but as you said in our history we have proven unable to become dominant to build a dynasty you've been unlucky you can point to teams broken up by world wars that's unlucky, that's weird our greatest ever team to be broken apart by something beyond that our neighbours did so that's three fantastic teams broken apart by events beyond after the show but then other times everyone thought we'd dominate the 70s after the title round but this fantastic team it just sort of fell apart there's definitely an element of when you look at our long history there's definitely lots of bad work it seems to be more common than other teams to suffer misfortune combined with an occasional slappiness which has been particularly punishing I think over the last 80 years and has put us in a position now where like every other non elite club how do we get to the next level and I don't think any club has found an answer to that really do you think there is weird and obviously when you do stuff like it does fresh in all of this back up when you're looking at it God look we only went I think when we won the FA Cup in 1984 it was the longest period was it that we'd gone the amount of time where we'd won a trophy but we had always won trophies in every decade haven't we and I remember like the 2009 FA Cup everyone was like yeah we're definitely going to win it cos we win a trophy every decade and obviously we lost on that occasion and we haven't had any misses haven't we we had the 2009 FA Cup final we lost in semifinals in the 2010s if you want to call it that and we have had opportunities to sustain that throughout our history keep that record going it's gone now but when you look back and you see those moments of the moments where we have won stuff and haven't built on it or whatever and then you do come to this period where it's the longest we've gone I think in our history with our trophy you do look at how poorly we've been running I don't mean that from a perspective of it's been terrible ever since we won the FA Cup cos I think without giving Bill Kennight loads of credit on the board at that time before Mishiri he simply didn't have the money should he have sold and got other people in of course he should have done because once he realised for him and he didn't have the finances he should have actively gone and pursued it but even in that times we have we have totally taken our eye off the ball haven't we since we won the last FA Cup and Farad Mishiri coming with a different MO but then didn't listen to experts and that is we've probably taken our eye off the ball made terrible decisions haven't wanted to embrace the modern game enough at the time when it's been the most damaging I think because this is the first real period in time where State owned football clubs are in the Premier League now and we've fallen so far behind because of really poor off field decision making I think that's fair I think that's totally true I think not just now I think you can go back to the 90s we sort of we got we came in the 90s ill-suited to how football was changing then local multimillionaires people were getting really wealthy owners and then we get the billionaire where people are getting State owned owners and I think we've made bad decisions over the past I'd say maybe since the early 90s and unfortunately it's been the worst time in football's history to make bad decisions you could get away with it in the 60s and the 50s and the gap between the really wealthy club and the rest wasn't that big now if you mess up now and you don't make the right commercial decisions you've got the right owners the right people in place how damaging it can be to the level you can compete at it's never been so dramatic I think that's exactly right we've made terrible decisions and been sloppy and taken out of the ball that's just the nature of modern football it'll really punish it horribly if you mess up now and you can get into all kinds of problems if you don't run a club properly I'd imagine there's a lot of clubs who would look at everything now and think that if you want an example of how not to run a football club if you suddenly come into money at any point we're a perfect template of what decisions not to make at least we've given football that a horrible example of how not to run a club horrible example and we've given teams of blueprints how to be successful just do instead of that famous quote what would the Everton board do as a positive use that and flip it do the opposite to what Everton's board would have done just very briefly before we finish what are you feeling right now with how things are going in terms of because obviously I don't know whether this made it into your book but obviously being the first club ever to be hit with a 10 point deduction in the Premier League the most severe punishment but we are still in the fight we might get some of them points back you never know there is a little bit of a grounds well I think that Everton will get some of the points back I think people are kind of going now they'll get some back because it was so harsh two things what do you think about the job Sean Dyche is doing at the minute and two how do you think we'll do overall this season because right now we are very much part of a relegation battle when really we should be we should really be all saying we might be in a fight for the European Conference place here so there's a two part question for you how do you think Sean Dyche has done so far and what do you think this season will bring for Everton I think Dyche is doing a bit of mind the context where you can't inherit it and what's happened as he calls it the noise I think he's done a good job I think he's turned us into a kind of relatively mediocre mid-table team which actually you know this time last year we'd have taken that and he's got us playing there seems to be a blueprint there which we haven't had for a while signing seems to make sense football's not always the best but like you know I can live with that there's a kind of coherence about Everton that we've not had for a long time and you know he might not be the answer forever but I think for right now he's certainly providing something that we need and I think he gets the fight we're in he understands that I think if something's happening that hasn't been the case for ages so in that terms I'm quite happy with what he's been doing I think we'll get something back I think the Premier League has gone hard thinking they're being appealed they'll knock a few off and everyone can go oh well you know take that it's fair enough and I still think we're going to be part of the allegation fight for a while if the points don't get brought back it'll be the rest of the season if we do we might not achieve escape velocity for a few months but I feel really I feel more confident right now than this time last season when we were coming out the World Cup and the side was awful and didn't trust the manager I feel like we're of those teams at the bottom we're one of the best positions just like a few more teams sucked into the fight it's nice that Brent Philippines sucked into it hopefully far less will remain it you want about 7 or 8 teams I think that's the case if they start pulling away from us then it becomes a different problem but I think right now our back-evident to get out of it which is technically that optimism which is unusual for Nevitonium but I just feel I just feel like the manager, the squad the team, the way we're playing the feel about the club at the moment something feels better than it was under Lampard feels better than it was under Benitez I'm not happy because you know you're very very hard of blue but I'm not completely despondent which is kind of progressive sort I guess Oh absolutely, certainly the way the last couple of seasons have gone it does feel a lot different and like we said without the points deduction we'd all be sleeping a lot better anyway and we'd be looking at you know can we catch the teams above us like you know last night at the time of recording West Ham and Brighton we'd be going not to crack on these old tack cos they're not too far ahead that's just the way it is isn't it the manager gets a grip of it and we sort of start looking like a better side, we get ten points taken off us maybe that can go in the next book and we the greatest this game tell us then Jim where can we get hold of your book Okay so the moment it's only available on Amazon but I'm talking to the Everton House Society to maybe get some copies in St Luke's as well Excellent so people go and check it out it is called everything you wanted to know about Everton but we're afraid to ask it'll give you a nice refresher on what a big club Everton are and if you're looking if you're watching this and you want to learn a bit more about Everton maybe in overseas bloom you must want that a little bit more history and a little bit more context to things and why we hate Stephen Gerard and things like that then make sure you check out Jim's book on Amazon it's with it being on Amazon means you can get it anywhere no matter where you're at so and get that ordered Jim listen thanks very much mate for taking time to have a chat with us I want to wish you all the best with this book and let's hope your next book is talking about the comeback of the sleeping giant Sean Dyche turns it round and carries us off to Silverware and Brighter Future at Everton New Stadium Thanks very much for joining us Jim Thanks for having me No problem listen like I said we'll put a link in the description where you can just go straight to Amazon to get it make sure you leave your comments give us maybe your most hated players rivals don't put a hundred in just put like three or four and your best Everton players and maybe Jim can check the comments at some of them and see whether he's missed out a few obvious choices subscribe like do all of that good stuff share make sure you share Jim's book as well Jim where can we find you on social media most of them are on Twitter at Jim underscore keogan We'll put that in the link as well check that out as well Thanks for joining us, see you later