 Aloha and welcome to Ehana Kako, we're here every week on the Think Tech Hawaii broadcast network. I'm Kili Akina, president of the Grassroot Institute. Well, if you're in government and you're involved in any way in impacting the environment, you may want to watch very carefully today, especially if you're in the Department of Health or the Agriculture Development Corporation or the Department of Land and Natural Resources or the Hawaiian homelands. I could go on and you need to be watching because we have today Hawaii's top environmental watchdog who's watching you. That's right. On behalf of the people of Hawaii, there is a private citizen and I emphasize he's a private citizen. He's not government, he's not corporate, he's not with an agency. He carries on the work of looking after what government is doing, looking out for what government is doing on behalf of the people and he's made a splash over the last several years and when I mentioned his name, many of you are going to recognize him. We're deeply grateful that today we're going to talk a little bit about watching for environmental problems that are caused by the government that go beyond merely the environment but may involve conflicts of interest, misappropriation of funds and so forth. Fun stuff to be talking about with Carol Cox, environmentalwatchdog. Carol, welcome to the program. Thank you for having me, Kili. Well, it's always great fun and I don't know if your work is always fun and you get a little beat up now and then. Oh, sometimes you have to use your head. You certainly do that literally and we'll tell the folks about that in a bit. I remember last time you were here, we were talking about some investigations on Hawaiian homelands and just to give some context, you share with me the lament, the sadness that there are 27,000 people waiting on the list to get homelands, some of them dying hundreds every year and yet it's somehow some politically connected parties and businesses managed to get onto that land. We're not here to talk so much about that, but you have an interesting story about one of those clients. Yeah, well, we have one, one client was allowed to hold many parcels and leased them out to people or individuals or companies while DHHL collected no rent for that or any payment. So it was going into the coffers of that private entity. Now, you started to look into this because you saw some irregularities about the way the land was being used. What are some of the kinds of things that were going on on that land and nearby that land? Well, for instance, 13 ton of hydrochloric or calcium chloride used in the building of highways as a bonding agent. So that company deposited that material there and left it for a couple of years. That sounds like an illegal dump site. It wasn't an illegal dump site. But the sad part about that situation was the state health department did absolutely nothing and in fact covered up. Not only did they ignore that, but where this material was placed was on top of a substantial deposit of illegal landfill and oils and chemicals and paints. And it's still there as I talk to you right now. I know you've cataloged some other not so polo uses of that land, but let's cut to the chase here because this really isn't our topic. I just want you to tell the folks what happened to you one day when you were poking around on that land. You're getting ready to do an expose with one of the major news stations. When the newscaster didn't show up, you were all alone there. What happened? Right. Well, I'm sitting there and this gets it starts when I'm investigating a land agent for the department of Hawaiian homeland who gave a favorite to another company for a land that others couldn't get a lease on. So I'm sitting there waiting and for the TV and watching this one particular building and one car pulls in real quick and blocks the door and mask me and get out and another one pulls in front of truck pulls in front of me and one exit from the passenger side walks around and with the club and began to say hello what's up and then that's when all things went to hell and oh my goodness you ended up in a hospital what were this briefly I was in I hit on the head it was an attempted murder it was but you know fending off and fighting off that because they caught me sitting in the car so you know you had to exit the car to survive sitting there he was trying to wail away at my chest and at my head and face and today the attorney general talk about corruption and lack of importance and investigations the state attorney general and the sitting count of police department of police Honolulu police department has done nothing except for a feeble attempt to investigate the bombing of my home. Now that happened after this. This happened approximately a month later. You were at home having dinner or watching TV with your family and then what what did you hear? Actually I was sitting at home looking at some other matters all right and this is the after now I've been assaulted then all of a sudden I hear boom and what that boom was was the person that was setting my house a fire a torch in my house didn't use a proper technique that he normally use and the squirt ball that he used with the flare exploded and that caused a large boom sound and then I see they're running and that was it but you can't catch them when your fire they set the cars on fire so that oh my goodness it was in their park in the garage and to just really to be successful and burn it down. Well now this is a rather dramatic opening for today's topic but what I want to ask you is this rather than go into these cases which are still being looked at is this part of the price you pay for uncovering the truth about what's going on through government? Actually it's a reflection of what the people pay because in essence they lose more than I do I'm one individual this process that is weakened by corruption favoritism and buddyism that's going to impact everyone to include the environment so I don't see it as much as how I'm impacted it becomes difficult and understanding why there's no outrage when you see this kind of criminal behavior and assault they didn't say that I was stealing their cow or their horse or stealing the bicycle I was there investigating for an interest to reflect so the public could understand the abuses within government. Well the stakes are pretty high for the perpetrators of abuse and so let's jump right into some of our topics today you've been looking at the Department of Land and Natural Resources and the way some resources are being misallocated what's going on? Well there's one particular story I will call it a story but it's reality and that is the drug enforcement unit that eradicate drugs they lease a helicopter to get up in the higher levels of in the mountains and different islands to remove or extract and destroy marijuana. Well so far so good so far so good well there's one instance where the individual supervisors heading that department on Maui this took place in the K&I Valley what happens is that the supervisors daughter was getting married in a couple weeks so they took and deployed a helicopter to eradicate marijuana but instead brought family members and fellow officers to go up at high elevations and take from the streams he he via opi and other aquatic species well now wait a minute for the wedding this wedding gift which and there's nothing wrong with wedding gifts weddings are wonderful and it's wonderful to get fresh food for the the table and so forth but you're saying these were at the cost the expense of the taxpayer that taxpayer funded equipment taxpayer funded time of personnel and so forth what and access given only for government purposes was used for private purpose right for private purpose and I have notified the director of the chairperson who was Mrs. K. Suzanne case yes she basically blew me off and and still today attempting to get the attorney general to investigate it and take an action falls on deaf ears and they even went further to get rid of a new hire person that was capable and had can demonstrate that he will put things together at that office and they fired him after six months of him being hired and being given the best appraisal you could one could receive now what do you do when the the official department doesn't follow up or disputes what you have to say well what if on the other side miss case and the DLNR are watching today and saying Carol Cox you're not telling the truth about us Carol Cox this isn't what's going on you're maligning us well I would say that there's several solutions to that let's have a conversation openly on television we can come back to think tech and we can lay it on the table and truth is nothing that escapes me the truth is the taxpayers losing the truth is we entrust these officers to eradicate marijuana so if they're willing to abuse their authority and abuse equipment and money and time for that you might want to scratch your head and say well are we really learning exactly how much weed they're eradicating can we trust them is this some of this weed being put back on the streets it's up for questions now how long have you been doing this kind of watching dogging of the government about since 1995 96 here in Hawaii and what kind of reaction or response have you gotten in general from government agencies I'm the stepchild I might be received it's a very insulting position to be in but you must be committed to doing what's right and that is remember they have the obligation and the mandate to do these things protect the environment protect the wildlife and do all of those things they have that mandate they have that responsibility they fail I come along as a watchdog and gather the facts and go back and now I got to submit it to them now you don't just sit around and think up out of the blue where you'd like to go snooping around and so forth often people contact you or and you get first hand information from observers and and informants and others how does that work well the bulk of my information and the things that I work on stems from conversations or calls from honest government workers and I must add 99% of the state workers government workers federal workers are honest people it is that top level that has become corrupt and have a special agenda or carrying out agendas for others so you're talking about people who are in the system in the system to see what their bosses are doing yes and also for some reason in many cases may not want to use the official whistleblower routes the official whistleblowing route is a death trap really a complete death trap you're told to blow the whistle and you're protected but protected from what because most of the threats that you receive can be further down the road in and further down the road oh so years later you might not get a promotion years later you might get transferred years later a simple mistake you make it in your work can result in firing is firing yes but the system waits the system so that you can't draw a direct correlation or retaliation taking place and and you will find yourself struggling as if you've been dumped in a bowl of jello you there's nothing to catch hold of you say that a good number of government workers actually appeal to you and that the majority of the information that informants you have are people who work in the system well what is the culture they live under I mean if they're they're they're afraid of retaliation they have to go outside the system to get somebody to look into things I would say some say this is the aloha state I would say better described as the nervous state really yes the average worker in government is nervous from retaliation from threats and some of them even fear their life well we're going to pause on that note not a happy note but a realistic notice to what's taking place here in government culture I'm Keely Akina interviewing Carol Cox our environmental watchdog who looks out for the people and our interests you're watching think tech Hawaii's a Hanako will be right back after the short break hi I'm Stacy Hayashi with a think tech Hawaii show Stacy to the rescue highlighting some of Hawaii's issues you can catch it at think tech Hawaii on Mondays at 11 a.m. Aloha see you then hi my name is Aaron wills you're watching think tech Hawaii comm I am the host of the show rehabilitation coming soon you can catch us live on think tech Hawaii comm at 11 a.m. on Tuesdays I will see you there aloha everyone I hope you've been watching think tech Hawaii but I'm here to invite you to watch me on Viva Hawaii every Monday at 3 p.m. I'm waiting for you mahalo aloha my name is John why and I actually had a small part to do with what's happening today served actually in public office but if you don't already know that here's a chance to learn more about what's happening in our state by joining me for a talk story with John why every other Monday thank you and I look forward to your seeing us in the future welcome back to a Hanukako here every week on the think tech Hawaii broadcast network I'm just delighted today to be talking with Carol Cox environmental watchdog but before we get back to him Carol is able to do his work because of the good people in government who are working together for the greater good at the grassroots Institute we say a Hanukako a Hanukako means let's work together and if we don't work together will never solve some of the basic problems of Hawaii so what I want to say is for those of you from the various government agencies and departments who are watching today and I know some of you are thank you thank you for being willing to speak up when necessary thank you for being able to bring watchdogs into the business of watching the government that's important because it's a fundamental responsibility of citizenship and with that said I want to get back to Carol because our time is running very quickly Carol you've also been looking into the Department of Health and we have a program called voluntary response program tells what that program is and what's the problem with it let's be specific the voluntary response program is a volunteer response program and that is if you have a tank and it has arsenic or hydraulics or whatever and it leaks into the ground and you engage with the state of Hawaii you can leave that in the ground and put a pavement over it and walk away and as long as you come back and make sure the patching of it is done so at 925 Dillingham the old Sprint call center there's a situation there with petroleum or diesel product in it leaked from tanks and then in turn this couple of years years back when that was an industrial area that material is under the ground about 9 feet the only thing is required is that they put a parking lot there and put asphalt over it and with dirt and then you have the building that there now it is called the Kapalama satellite City Hall so the city and county of Honolulu actually leases this facility with these contaminants underneath instead of making the responsible party to clean it up so we go from generation to generation from owner to owner with a known problem that never gets dealt with and we've got all of these laws coming out like the Clean Water Act for which covers some of the pollution of the ground by water that runs off into the ocean and and and so forth and you're saying that our government is basically ignoring this through this practice of voluntary that voluntary what do we call it response response one must understand we we are confident in our thoughts when we all we have the Clean Water Act we have the Clean Air Act we have the wastewater public things the public things that but what the problem here in Hawaii is it's isn't worth anything or the ink that it's written in if you don't have integrity in the enforcement consistency and enforcement and favoritism is out overruled by doing what's right by the people now you're suggesting then that in this case where the city and county is building something on top of polluted land it's already there the building is there that there's something scandalous about this beyond the fact that we've got this deficient law involved what's going on here well there's a practice this voluntary response is a practice of a shell game you see if you and I engage in selling that land to one another I would have to make full disclosure and you would be wanting to be compensated for the removal of that contaminant but government in this state covers up and plays a shell game and moves and hide contaminants by allowing government agencies to go in and rent property or lease property or acquire properties while they are the enforcers so if they are the enforcers they can enforce or not enforce it so there's a conflict of interest that standard conflict of interest where the parties that are involved in administering or in promoting are also the ones who are supposed to be keeping watch so they keep watch when it's convenient but they don't keep watch when it's beneficial to their personal interest conflict of interest is a cute way of putting it but I have come to learn that it's fraudulent practices that are detrimental to the environment because it's still there and so when the title influence and the groundwater is contaminated that's the real threat see nature does not stop and these processes does not stop because of the politics being introduced these things are still active in somehow in finding their way into the environment and that is the primary concern not the politics of it but the politics enables people to play the shell game now I thought that here in the state of Hawaii we have a great body of law statutory law that that prevents this type of thing from happening and in addition to that we have some values that have been put into the law about Malama the Aina so how does this continue to take place well you know it's like looking at baseball and you can say a guy could hit a hundred homeruns and knock it out of the park but you got to get somebody to do that you got to get someone that's proficient enough that's in has the integrity to follow up the appointments that the governor makes that person must be skilled and committed but you see we don't pick the people to do that we pick them and appoint them because they have certain agendas nothing to do with the concerns for the environment and totality or the people's interests when you're also looking into something at the agriculture development corporation a certain 400 acres yes ADC agriculture development corporation acquired some 400 acres plus and much of this land was owned by Gail Gilman estate or dole so we're gonna see some healthy crops growing and benefiting the people well in one instance there is one company that has had possession of the land for three years and to date has yet to grow a single plant okay no water no water has been installed the well that goes there oh ha has it co comes over their land and there's some issues with that but again nothing really works in this situation but there are contaminants there like arsenic and petroleum products tph's and that we purchased that land why did we not purchase that land but before purchasing it make the owners previous owners clean it up or why didn't we just perform due diligence in the inspection of that land and their proper valuation of it well one thing about Hawaii they will tell the truth but again it's all in writing but no one really enforces it well then in such a situation who's responsible and who is it that we hold accountable no one is held accountable it's it's a parade or charade of acts you you go in they'll tell you the law one thing to pay attention to is that any of these reports well that you know it could be twenty five thousand dollars a day for the violation but the state never returns to that site maybe one time after the TV cameras go away and then the rest of the year the rest of the five years nothing happens until myself comes back and say well I just heard that they weren't cleaning it up I didn't clean it up so the state goes back and give you the same old song again now we have a flagrant lack of enforcement of the environmental laws that you're pointing out do we have also have selective enforcement if it isn't really in the political inner circle that their victims of actual enforcement yes and you'll see a number of people donate substantially and heavily to the mayors and the governors and you just saw it there's a little slight correlation that suggests that will we can't say emphatically that this was a payoff to turn the heads but it happens in many ways but pay to play kind of game if you're going to actually be acquiring land and carrying out your purposes without being hindered by the government if you have contaminants in the soil just work with the health department and you're likely to come up with a deal that you can't resist now you come across occasional instances of this you whistle blow you show some of the things your watch dog and so forth people come to you how pervasive is this in our political and commercial culture here in Hawaii how widespread are these just exceptional cases that make headlines or do we have a certain kind of culture at place well it's pervasive is substantial and there's not one scenario you can touch or look at or interact with that you won't find it it'll have the stench of corruption favoritism and all of this is present in anything and everything we see as it relates to the environment and other issues whether it's state housing or state homelessness we'll move them from certain areas but after they're out of the way we'll let wine I grow and blossom up with homeless people by the thousand but what about some agencies that exist for the sake of advocating for the Aina for the the land itself of for example the office of Hawaiian affairs or even the Hawaiian homelands that has as one of its principles Malama and take care of the island well the I know what about these values that agencies are supposed to be preserving well they are present and and some of them do preach it but how does one justify having such a caring policy and a policy that's going to benefit everybody when you have the city mayor seizing the property of homeless and unfortunate people and destroying it and violating their rights and the civil rights and and all of that how can you be so silent and sit back and watch it and say you're going to implement your program but over here atrocities are being taken place is there is there another story you want to tell us before we close today another agency another investigation that you're involved in let's stick with the Department of Land and Natural Resources you see the people that are there the enforcers are not skilled the law enforcement people that would actually go and take the legal action the state health department they're not skilled in law enforcement most of their activities is civil goes to civil hearing but if we start to put criminal charges and costs and penalties substantially would in fact and change the whole climate and the whole culture here so we need greater enforcement what is it that needs to be done if you're the advisor to a governor or to the mayor or to the legislature what would you tell them has to take place in order to reform the system I would say they all need a refresher course in integrity in ethics because it's real it's it's simple you know it would be attempting to teach the governor is the new governor but he's been in legislative practice for 20 years when you say they need a refresher in ethics and integrity and so forth you really speak to the fact that the voters yeah need to be involved in knowing who they're voting for and putting people into office who will really stand for the true enforcement of law and while we're speaking about the voter the voting process itself is flawed and and requires some modification some work because we've seen too many times so many flaws that present themselves on voting day precincts close not enough ballots well we mean we may need to send you to look into that this year boy this has been so fascinating Carol and I can't wait to have you back again but any last word perhaps just say this how can anyone get a hold of you if they want to give you a tip or some lead on something that needs to be looked into carol cox.com C-A-R-R-O-L-L-C-O-X.com say that again Carol cox.com C-A-R-R-O-L-L-C-O-X.com well I want to thank you Carol thanks for being with us today and thank you so much for the work you're doing we need citizens like you thank you are keeping government in check well what a fascinating half hour and that's all it was here every week on the Think Tech Hawaii broadcast network where the A Hana CoCo program with fascinating guests like Carol Cox and I want to encourage you to get a hold of a copy of this and perhaps send it to someone you can do that by going to two sources you can go to thinktechawaii.com where we have all of these programs or you can go to the website of the grass root institute grassrootinstitute.org that's grassroot singular grassrootinstitute.org until next week vigilafond aloha and Kili'i Akina mahalo for watching today we'll see you again