 Think Tech Hawaii. Civil engagement lives here. Welcome to the Asian Review. I'm your host, Bill Sharp. Our show today covers Taiwan's defense, Taiwan's relationship to the United Nations, and the role of the Presbyterian Church in Taiwan. My guest is Dr. Michael Tsai, former Defense Minister of Taiwan, who also is very actively participating in an organization promoting Taiwan's admission to the U.A. In addition, he is an important figure in the Taiwan Presbyterian Church, so we're so glad to have him with us. He's joining us via telephone from Taipei, Taiwan. Welcome to Asian Review. It's great to have you with us. Bill, I'm Michael Tsai, and also the friends in Hawaii. Have a good day. That's great. That's great. I'm sure they'll appreciate that. Well, we have a lot to cover here, so let's get right at it. Taiwan's defense budget, and Taiwan is always saying to the United States, and the United States is always saying to Taiwan, spend 3 percent of GDP, and Taiwan says it will spend 3 percent of GDP, but it doesn't seem to happen, gets close, but doesn't happen. So what's the problem? What's the problem on meeting this 3 percent of GDP in the defense budget? I think it is a problem, as you mentioned. Now, Taiwan National Defense budget for the last three to five years, the total budget is about 100 million U.S. dollars, that's equivalent to about less than 2 percent of the GDP of Taiwan. This is not what we expected. The reason we cannot reach 3 percent, we would like to have 3 percent of Taiwan's national GDP as our national defense budget, but the reason is the Taiwan, as a democracy, we have a lot of the area to cover from our GDP national income, including the economic development and also our contribution to the international community. For instance, we spend meaning and meaning years' dollars to contribute to the underdeveloping country in Africa, in the South Pacific nations, in the medical and humanitarian relief, and also contribute to the other educational cultures, development in other countries. And also we are developing some other area for the National Welfare Program, and on and on. We have a national budget, we divide it into these three parts. One part, 50 percent of our national defense budget is go to the personnel maintenance, and another 50 percent is about the 50 meaning years' dollars go into maintaining the legal operation and also the new military equipment development and the investment in the research and also including the military procurement program from the U.S. and from other countries. We would like to have in this one part the annual defense budget and also special budget for the defense, if needed, our parliament would and also our government would contribute another 20 meaning years' dollars for the special budget. For instance, in the 19, in the 20, 2004, our parliament, our Congress approved the special budget to buy the submarines and also buy the PAK-3 missile and also buy the P-3C, which it would provide by the United States Pentagon and also White House approval. But this, the missile program has been materialized, so the P-3C, also we have the purchased, but the submarine had not been materialized, been purchased because of the, we, we allowed, we allocated some of the special budget, but the U.S. would not give us the diesel-powered the eight submarine so that the, although we have only less than 2 percent of our national GDP for the national defense budget, but we are prepared, as the government promised, that the, if needed, we will allocate another probably quarter of the, quarter meaning of the U.S. dollars for the special budget if U.S. give us the, the, the military procurement program we requested. I see. So this is the reason why we are looking forward to have a better military cooperation with the United States if the United States would, would give us the procurement program as we requested. Oh, that's very interesting. Well, let me move on to another aspect of the, it always seems to be this like argument going on. The United States and a lot of think tanks in the United States say, Taiwan should focus on asymmetric warfare. And some go as far as saying, you should forget, you know, your F-16s, you should forget your, your, your indigenous fighters, you should forget mirages and just, and you should forget major ships and just develop a, a porcupine force. In other words, a force that's strong enough to repel mainland China if it ever should land on the shores of Taiwan. And by extension, leave the so-called heavy fighting to the United States. There seems to be a lot of opposition to that within the Taiwan military. The Taiwan military might say on one hand, well, this porcupine defense is okay. That's not a bad idea, but it has to go along with the full defense. We want our fighters. We want our major ships. We want to be able to meet the enemy, meaning China head on rather than waiting for Taiwan to come to us. And in this sense, in this way, we also reduce dependence on the United States. So where do you stand on that argument, the asymmetric argument versus of, how should we call it, the full fighting force argument? Well, I think not only my personal position, but I believe this entire, the National Defense Ministry now, we are under the strong China's military threat against Taiwan. And we're not going to compete with China's military investment in their very, very offensive approach, take over the Taiwan. Therefore, for the last five or 10 years, Taiwan, we have developed the, we call the very, very efficient deterrent approach. We developed some of the short range, even the medium range of the missile to, in order to intercept or deter China from taking further aggressive actions. We can, that's kind of the short range or medium range of the missile we have developed. We have already employed such kind of short range of the missile on the boat, on the ships, on the air fighting jet. Therefore, at least we can, we can depend on ourselves at least to fight the PLA, People Liberation Army, their ship, their military jet or military ships. And they are invading Taiwan at the Taiwan Strait. Therefore, we spent a lot of the budget for the last 10 years, including myself. When I have the opportunity to serve at the MND, the Ministry of National Defense, we have spent a lot of, not only the missile, but also in the unmanned aircraft. And also with a lot of the, we call the multiple attacking gun or missile. We employ this across the, our national coastal area to take the China ships if they are crossing our shore. Therefore, as I mentioned earlier, that we spend a million, million dollars in developing this deterrence, including the missile. And we also developed the last 10 years, we developed the ships, light ship with the missile on the ships, so that we want to make sure we are able to protect the open sea near the Taiwan coastal area to deter China from taking the further aggression action against Taiwan. This is in our part, we are not to depend on the traditional army against army and the Navy against Navy, no. We know we are not, we are not competing with them. But between Taiwan and China, they have about 200 miles, 200, I'm sorry, 200 kilometers, the open water, Taiwan straight, therefore China want to take the traditional force against Taiwan. I think in China, they have to sink in twice because they had to, they had to cross the 200 kilometers water, it's hard for them. Therefore, we emphasize much for the last 10, 15 years how to, in our Navy and the Air Force capability to deter or even to confront with them if they cross the middle line of Taiwan, Taiwan straight. I think we are, we certainly, we were confident to deter China from taking the traditional action. And also on the other hand, we need the United States and also Japan support. We call the Collective Regional Security Corporation. Because China want to attack Taiwan, even attack the Japan and Okinawa area, we have to have a concert effort together between Taiwan and Japan, of course, including the United States together to deter China from taking further the aggression. And this is a reason why the United States, we are not going to depend on China 100 percent, but we will depend on our own self-defense capability to deter China. But also I think we need to understand that Japan take a concert effort to deter China from taking the such kind of offensive, China's offensive, the action in that Asian Pacific area. Okay. Good. Well, this might be just a little bit early here, but let's take a break and we'll come back in one minute and we'll continue with our interview. We'll go on and talk about the United Nations. You're watching Asian Review. I'm your host Bill Sharp. My guest today is Dr. Michael Tsai, former Defense Minister of Taiwan. He's joining us via telephone from Taipei, Taiwan, and we'll be back in one minute. I'm Jay Fidel, think tech. Think tech loves energy. I'm the host of Mina, Marco and me, which is Mina Morita, former chair of the PUC, former legislator and energy dynamics, a consulting organization in energy. Marco Mangelsdorf is the CEO of Provision Solar in Hilo. Every two weeks, we talk about energy, everything about energy. Come around and watch us. We're on at noon on Mondays every two weeks on Think Tech. Aloha. Welcome back to Asian Review. I'm your host Bill Sharp. My guest today is Dr. Michael Tsai, former Defense Minister of Taiwan. He's joining us via telephone from Taipei, Taiwan. In the first part of the show, we talked about Taiwan defense issues. We want to move on and talk about Taiwan's relationship to the United Nations. And then we want to finish up today's show talking about the role of the Presbyterian Church in Taiwan. So Dr. Tsai, you're very active in an organization that promotes Taiwan's membership in the UN. Can you tell us a little bit about that organization and your work with it? All right. My organization, which is committed to promote Taiwan into the United Nations, as well as some other international organizations, such as WHO, EKL, and some other international organizations, we have, for the last, we have established this organization called Taiwan United Nations Alliance, TAIUNA, Taiwan United Nations Alliance, TAIUNA. We have more than 6,000 memberships, including mostly in Taiwan, and also we have a lot of members residing in the United States, Japan, Europe, and some other Southeast Asian country. Globally, we have all the members in almost every country in the world. In the past, we tried to engage, one is in United Nations, and another one is the World Health Organization, WHO. One day, WHO opened the assembly in Geneva, Switzerland. We organized a dedication of the 20, 30, 50 people. This year, we have almost 200 members from Taiwan and many from the United States, New York, California, and so from Japan, as well. We go to WHO to petition the four membership at the WHO, and also in every September of the year, we also send a dedication of about sometime a few hundred, sometime a few thousand to go to New York. In the second week of the September 1, the UN opened its assembly. The reason for our activities to join the UN or join the WHO and some other international organizations, based on the several reasons. The first one, the UN Charter and the WHO Charter say clearly that the UN should be open to every nation, should be their membership should be universal. One of the reasons we should be included in the UN and WHO and some other international organization. The second UN Charter and WHO Charter say there should be the right of self-determination, should be a substantive, should be maintained, should be supported by the UN. Therefore, more than 80% of Taiwanese people in Taiwan, we have showed in the referendum in 2004 and also in the recent opening poll, more than 80%, 84% of the poll showed it, more than 80% of the people would like to join the United Nations as the name of Taiwan. We have been excluded from Taiwan since 1972. When the UN passed a resolution called the name of the 2758, this resolution passed by the UN assembly in 1971. So, 1971, that's allowed the expel the Chiang Kai-shek authority in Taiwan and allowed the PLC China to be included, take over the Chiang Kai-shek seat, repress Chiang Kai-shek seat from Taiwan and give the PLC the membership in the United Nations. But this resolution, 2758 passed in 1971, didn't only give the seat to China without mentioning any words about the Taiwan participation or the Taiwan status in the UN. Therefore, we are seeking for the participation as a member to the United Nations based on the UN Charter's right of self-determination, rights to universal participation. We have the rights, and also Taiwanese people, majority of the people also show the 80%, more than 80% of the Taiwanese people show the strong support for Taiwan to join the UN. And another reason for that is Taiwan has participated, has contributed a million and million years' dollars to the international organization, to the other developing country. As I mentioned, for the last 20, 15 years, we have given almost more than 100 million U.S. dollars to the countries in Africa, in the South Pacific nations, and also the Caribbean nations and South Africa nations. We are capable to contribute as a responsible nation in the world. Therefore, if we join the United Nations and the Labrador, we can contribute more through our national economic strength to support developing or under developing nations. It's really China's power and China's clout that keeps Taiwan out, isn't it? Exactly. So we are not small nations. We have 36,000 kilometers. We are ranking about one, the middle of the nation in the members of the United Nations. Also, we are economical power, as you mentioned. We are ranking top 20 years. Therefore, if we are allowed to join the UN, we can contribute more through the UN's sponsorship. And this is one of the reasons. And the second is, if we become a member of the United Nations, I believe we can support the UN mission or peacekeeping force, and we can make sure that we can maintain a peace and stability in the Asian Pacific area. The only obstacle is from China. Right. We're starting to run out of time here. Taiwan is a part, yes? Our time is winding down here, and I want to get to the Presbyterian Church in Taiwan, because that's such an important political force, and you're very closely involved with that church. I agree. Yes. Why is the Presbyterian Church so politically powerful in Taiwan? Oh, because the PCT, the Presbyterian Church in Taiwan, PCT, we have more than a quarter meaning membership in Taiwan. We have more than 1,020 churches. Wow. 1,020 churches. That's a lot. Yeah. PCT is the largest denomination church in Taiwan, the largest. Is it bigger than the Buddhists? Is the PCP, the Presbyterian Church of Taiwan, is it bigger than the Buddhists? Does it have more followers than Buddhists than the Buddhists? No. The Buddhists, I think we call the local religions, they are much more members than the PCT. But in Christianity, PCT is the largest denomination in Taiwan. The reason why PCT is so powerful, so influential reason is the PCT, they are from grass root churches and the movement, they support the Taiwan independent movement. In the 1970s, the PCT issued the human rights declaration, which in this human rights declaration PCT committed to support Taiwan becoming a new and independent country, which has been supported by majority people in Taiwan, including the non-PCT religions. In Taiwan, more than 70 or 80% of the population in Taiwan, they believe that Taiwan should become a new and independent nation separate from China. They like to be Taiwan free and democratic with the respect of human rights, and it has been supported by the overwhelming majority of people in Taiwan, and the PCT support, and it's a very important part, influential part in this kind of independent grass root movement in Taiwan, and this is the reason why PCT had, for instance, a week ago, more than 300 PCT pastors or ministers participate in the assembly, the movement we call the assembly held at the city heart, the heart of Taipei City, and 1,000 and 1,000 prescription church members joined this movement, the assembly, this is one of the examples why PCT has been so powerful and so respectful by the, from the grass root movement in Taiwan, and I believe and I hope that PCT... Okay, Michael, we're down to one minute here, so we have to wind it up pretty soon. I just was told we have one minute left. Therefore, I think the PCT is a very powerful, respectful, the religious organization. They will continuously inspire the Taiwanese people and inspire the well-wishes people around the world. Okay, that's good. That's really good. Well, we covered a lot of ground today. We talked about defense issues, we talked about Taiwan's relationship to the UN, we talked about the Presbyterian Church of Taiwan, and we did all of that in 30 minutes. That's really pretty good. I think we can pat ourselves on the back for that. So I want to thank you very much for joining me today from Taiwan, and I want to thank you and our audience for watching, and join me next week when my guest will be an old friend of Asian reviewer, Dr. Jerome Keating. We'll see you then.