 Hi everyone. It's really great to be here. Thank you for Product School for inviting me to come talk about product management and specifically within product management around the topic that's very near and dear to my heart and I'll kind of cover today topic called like the emotional product manager or emotional product management and Just a quick intro. My name is Avi Noam Zelenko And I am a product manager and I work on the feed at LinkedIn And what I'm going to talk about today as part of emotional product management is the importance of kindness in this field of product management and Something that I like to call emotion driven development Now really quickly just about myself my life's mission statement is to spread kindness and love in everything I do and It's actually based and rooted in my actual name Which literally is broken out into two different words Avi Noam Avi means father of no means kindness. So basically avina means father of kindness It's a lot to live up to I don't pretend that I actually am capable of but Something to aspire to and something that drives me One thing that's not on my LinkedIn profile just to kind of share and you know It's interesting to learn about people's background is I used to be a professional javelin thrower No, I was never Olympic level, but it was awesome and I was in like international competitions and stuff like that, but It eventually led me to another sport and maybe I'll talk about that in another presentation sometime in the future Now a little bit about my background and career-wise is I've been at these five different companies started, you know, if you look at like live person all the way to LinkedIn and you know, these are companies across geographies industries sizes and business models and You know, if I kind of talk about each one just so you get a flavor for the difference between each of them and like my career background is This is over a time span of around 13 12 years Life person is a chat messaging company. Click tail is a with acquired but basically a startup that did Analytics meaning like heat maps and session recordings feed visor. I was actually the first p.m And the company was just under 40 people when I joined early stage startup in the e-commerce space And then I joined Atlassian where I was a p.m. on Confluence and As you know, Confluence makes sorry Atlassian builds Jira Confluence Trello Bitbucket things like that and Fairly kind of medium to large company public and For the past over a year and a half Yeah, just a bit over a year and a half. I've been at LinkedIn and like I said I work on the feed Which is my first like official dabble into B2C and generally you can see this is like different industries B2C B2B Sass Even a bit of a stint with on-premise stuff at Atlassian. So The person on the right is me And one of the reasons that I've leaned into focusing on emotions is that I'm not really like the classic once engineer turned p.m technical background and I decided that instead of trying to be something or someone that I'm not or like overcompensate for my weaknesses I actually decided to embrace and amplify my personal traits which come to me naturally and Are things that make me who I am and know that's something that I make a conscious effort of Bringing into my work on a day-to-day basis So I started these This presentation talking about kindness and emotions. I just wanted to define them really quickly based on the dictionary kindness is defined as quality of being friendly generous and considerate and Emotion is defined as a natural instinctive state of mind Which can derive from circumstances you move the relationships with other people and so on But the question is how are they related and how do they impact each other? Especially when you think about a product experience and what role do they actually play in building experiences? My perspective is that they're pretty intertwined and I'll do my best my best to explain my take on this We can start with kindness or think about kindness as a foundation or Kind of like the base of the framework if it was One way of looking at kindness is through this quote, which is taken from ritual if you're not familiar with ritual He has a fantastic book called finding ultra the story is Used to be a professional swimmer and battled with alcohol and then at the age of around 40 he decided to Change his life and he ended up be like becoming one of the most Incredible ultra athletes in the world and he's got this fantastic podcast now and I really look up to him and he has this quote, which is great and he says it says mood follows action And I think what we can look at in our case is we can say okay mood is our emotion and Action is kindness or being kind And that begs the question what actually drives said action Now generally speaking if we think about it from like a product or general like psychological point of view Pretty much everything starts and ends with a feeling And if I take this framework, which is completely inspired. This is something that I learned through reforge They have this great framework called ELMR and it walks you through the decision hill Where it's basically to make any decision you triggered first of all every decision starts with an emotion and What you end up doing is you back up that emotion with logic But still decision leads the way and even if you go through the rest of this framework the two things that I didn't add here in the visual is the one step after logic is motivation and Basically, you're trying to go over that motivation hill to get something done and at the other side of that motivation hill is our is reward and I think the point is you'll see that this starts with emotion and even once you've gotten your reward one thing you're left with and this is using the very famous words of my angel, which I just I love this quote is People will forget what you said people will forget what you did but people will never forget how you made them feel So ultimately Decisions start within emotion. That's what drives an action and even when we're rewarded at the end as a result We end up walking around with how that made us feel ultimately now There's a great question around, you know thinking about kindness is Who can and should you be kind to as a PM and how should you be kind? So logic would probably say, you know customers first then your team, right because you work with them And it's important and yourself But I actually think that this order is off and the way I think we should be looking at this is the other way around so I Actually think it starts with yourself Then you've got your teammates and then you've got people using your product, which you can call Customers members users or depending on the context Now while this may seem counter-intuitive or against even like a customer-centric approach I firmly believe that it all starts with you Now being a PM is a very tasking job and it takes a toll on everyone You are the glue that connects everyone and parts of it. You can be shadows and You know from the outside there can be a lot of glamour to it But there's a lot that goes into it and it's not always the most, you know, quote-unquote kind of pretty work to do and the ability to practice self-compassion emotional well-being and knowing that if you're not taken care of that Not your customers or your teammates will be in a good place Is a really important realization and basically as a PM I think ultimately PMs are the kind of the happiness bottleneck It's kind of like the classic example, right when they tell you on a plane put your mask on first so you can help others If you're not well taken care of if you're not kind to yourself You're gonna have a very hard time being there for your teammates who need you and for your customers who you're the advocate for Now when it comes to your teammates, you know, we're all people working with people and we're all driven by the same emotions And I think it's really important to make sure that we're Sensitive to our team's feelings that we need to lead with kindness Mainly because it's the right thing to do and I think it's also like in the grand scheme of things is noticing like how can we be More of a giver than a taker and I'll talk about that a little bit more now a little later Otherwise the the party involved that kind of ends up suffering if We're not kind to our teams and people that we work with is you guessed it your customers and That brings me to the customer These are our, you know customers are real boss and they write our paycheck But I think it's important to remember is we're also customers ourselves And the fact that there's like an arbitrary divide and construct, you know, I walk into work There's an organization. There's a customer. It doesn't mean we're not the same And I think the more we remember that we are the same Then higher our standards will naturally become for what a great experience is and should be And let's just look a little closer at each one of these really briefly Now if you think about it again like from yourself first is I think it's really important to remember based on this quote is self-compassion is simply giving the same kindness to ourselves that we would give to others and I think that's really impactful and Reminding ourselves that you know, you're doing your best you aren't perfect and you probably never will be and it's okay and Again like from a p.m. Perspective is you're never alone There's so many other pms if you talk to them for four seconds Everybody's going to share a similar story or similar scenario and I think that's why the importance of Either building out your own community for this kind of support or finding existing communities of product managers where you can Share and learn from each other really helps you build the self-compassion because it's very easy to Fallen to being self-critical self-doubt imposter syndrome and it's a really slippery slope When you're working as a p.m. Going into the teammates or you know the people that you work with on a day-to-day basis This is a quote from Bernie Brown and she's got a wonderful book Dare to lead and she's got a new book now Alice of the heart She's probably got more books that I'm not aware of But I love this quote from her where she says clear is kind unclear is unkind and In the context of product management You know keeping this in mind whether it's writing a spec, you know or prd. Whatever you call it Whether when you're communicating right verbally or written or whether you're giving someone feedback It's being clear is Probably the kindest thing you can do, but what I kind of like about this is you also need to be clear that the way that you're communicating is In a kind way, so you can kind of balance those two things out and Last but not least we go back to our you know users or customers And if we kind of look at this spectrum of empathy and this is not something I put together I've been seeing this going across LinkedIn and I just love this visual and It explains so elegantly the difference between You know a lot of times we talk about the difference between sympathy and empathy and empathy and compassion and I like that It takes like all the levels and it kind of plots these things based on the amount of effort That's required and understanding and engagement that corresponds now If you kind of walk through them really quickly, right pity is Pretty much like the most passive level of observing and you kind of say well, sorry for you. You don't really get involved sympathy would be is you know, you're looking at somebody trying to Climb up a hard cliff You'll look at them. You're like man, it looks really hard But your hands are like crossed across your chest and you don't really feel anything except for that looks really hard And then empathy is like really starting to put your mindset into the same mindset of the person that's going through that Moments in our example somebody trying to you know climb up a very difficult wall or cliff and Compassion is the leap and kind of like the ultimate Or what you do is you reach your hand out or you take an action to help that person Right, maybe give them a rope give them some something that'll help them climb but you get involved and Like I said compassion. I think is like an ultimate But at the same time it can't always be practiced Just like you can't build every single feature as a product manager and part of being a product manager is prioritization and I think it's also really important to prioritize How much empathy sympathy compassion you need to Have when you're thinking of building an experience and You can use these different levels of empathy to actually help prioritize where you'll go deep versus where you may need to go wide and you can add this as a dimension even to prioritizing what to build and when and This one is a quote from a really great Ted talk by James Rhee where he kind of makes the case for kindness and I Feel like it's almost like a subset of you know, Peter Drucker is kind of known for saying the culture eat strategy for breakfast and I Feel like kindness is one of the components that's very very key in culture and Just to read this quote really quickly as you know kindness distributes the joy of problem-solving to everyone It creates a safe environment that unleashes innovation, especially the unselfish kind and it turns perceived liabilities into assets Basically saying, you know kindness is one of the more on one hand selfish things you can do But at the same time, it's unselfish Because it's beneficial to those who are around you And I love the way that James Rhee put this in context of a business environment so clearly Cool, so we've covered some of the high-level concepts and now I wanted to actually dive into practical applications and examples of how The real world and actually like examples of how I've used this in the real world in different roles in different companies So a question we can ask is how can you apply kindness and how can you measure emotion? Now these are some ideas that came to mind It's not an exhaustive list, but I thought I could attach an example just to kind of get the creative juices flowing The first one is when you're building something is are we doing things the right way or are we doing the right thing? And it may seem like a bit of an obvious question, but it introduces Sometimes really heavy trade-offs things like, you know, based on how you may be incentivized to build things or how your organization celebrates success You may be incentivized to build things in the right way But they may not end up having impact on customers because you're not really doing the right thing And sometimes doing the right thing is a hard question to ask Sometimes it's hard to advocate for it because it may mean things need to take more time or They may be more expensive to build and you need to justify that A second thing is to Establish strong user first principles When you're in the definition phase think about this as a project think about this as Could be a feature like at many levels and an example that I have from the past as we use this principle called no invisible walls we were rebuilding an old experience into a new one and I think a lot of times instead of no invisible walls. There's a like a principle of no dead ends Now stop for a second think about how that feels A dead end is something you reach and then you backtrack doesn't feel good But an invisible wall Actually captures like all the emotions that suck and as a result you can understand like a lot of the needs personally and socially That arise of like why people want to get through this successfully. So when you bump into an invisible wall It is less than you expected It's surprising in a bad way it's embarrassing as hell and it makes you feel like really bad about yourself and it can make you furious as well and If you kind of think about the opposite of those things If you don't want to have invisible walls that means that people's underlying needs are to feel competent to be productive and move quickly through their work To feel like they're you know guiding themselves to mastery to look good in front of their peers to look intelligent So that's an example of how like a principle can attach to an emotion when you're building an experience The next one is to build a framework that can prioritize kindness and emotions and I'll give a very specific example in the next slide Then we have something more tactical, which is running a contextually triggered survey I think we may all be familiar, you know, like there's NPS Which is a lot of times a survey that kind of Comes up in the middle of your work or in an email and it's about the entire product asking you would you recommend this to a friend and It catches you off guard and you're not in context of anything and it could also depend on your mood Did you just you know have a fight with with your spouse or something like that? What's really nice about contextually triggered surveys first of all you can be a lot more targeted You don't have to send them as much you can send less and get higher quality feedback and they're related to Context of that situation. So an example could be is just after somebody Posted their first a post on LinkedIn You could have a very lightweight survey that could even you know, for example look like a confirmation Just trying to understand in that moment in time based on that action How are you feeling like was that a good experience without a bad experience and you actually get very high quality information about sentiment The next one is measuring user input Now think about this as You know, whether you're on Facebook or any other product where you can kind of Report an experience or even say like I don't want to see this right or like YouTube or like I'm not interested It's not necessarily an emotion in the say and it's more of a proxy of an emotion So it's not a motion in the sense where somebody will tell you I feel so-and-so But it's a structured way of getting information at scale Knowing that people can perceive something as not interesting Or just a low quality, which again is a proxy of how they feel about it, which is really important And last but not least talk to your users talk to your customers I think what I found over my career is that the vast majority of conversations with customers start with two words and those are I feel and then they go into something and There's a lot to gain from that it doesn't mean that you need to build based on everything that's set in the conversation That's a whole other topic but I think that talking as people to people is probably one of the most low-tech trusted ways of Understanding how people actually feel about what what you're building for them Now I said I was going to get into an example for prioritizing for happiness And this is something that we did one of the companies I worked at so Imagine you have a great problem statement, you know why you're building something you have a bunch of solutions You've actually kind of decided that you know you Weight out like effort versus impact and you kind of have a short list of what you want to build This can come in as a great framework to actually sanity check Who are you actually solving for? Like are you gonna make the business really happy and maybe leave customers kind of hanging or are you gonna make customers really happy? But not really have any business outcome. So it's not really working for either side Now if you look at the left side, you kind of see like the red zone on the bottom left You know if you're not driving a business outcome or reducing pain or increasing happiness for a customer It's really not worth doing at the end of the day On the other hand if you're driving a great business outcome, but it's not really doing anything on the customer side Generally you want to refrain I think the only like example I have where it's okay to do something like this is You know often will need to do like very Big architectural underlying changes Customers won't see them, but it doesn't mean that they won't make them happy because these can change load times These can change a lot of things You know, there's a lot of talk about death by a thousand cuts There's also, you know, quote-unquote life by a thousand cuts like these are the things that make a product just work On the right side, you'll see the green zone and you know bottom right if some things like really great in reducing pain Or ideally increasing happiness on the customer side, but doesn't really drive a business outcome It's great for your customers and it's worthwhile to stop and ask You know like is this going to be meaningful? Maybe it will maybe it won't and it depends like relatively where it fits within the quadrant but It'll definitely make you like more honest with yourself and your team about like Why are we doing this or who are we doing for? I? Think if you're in the top right quadrants where it works for both That's a win-win ideally you want to have as many things as you can there You can't always but I think this is sometimes a good framework to go through Just to kind of make sure that Like I said, you prioritize for happiness another approach is something that Again worked with the Sun and team in the past is we kind of dubbed it emotional Solutionary as a framework so think about it is like emotional led stack ranking or prioritization and The idea is to you know like you've gone through the stage You have ideas of how you can potential solutions and when you want to stack rank them the idea is to Hold on for a sec to this notion of the classic prioritization that I mentioned earlier Which is let's see how hard it is to build or how much value it's going to add and then decide It's to stall for a bit and focus on What is this going to make people feel and like what's the emotional impact that they're going to be left with? and it starts with kind of for each solution thinking about like what are the key pain points and map those to an emotion and Basically prioritize pain first or you could also say prioritize happiness first But the way I would think about it is the place that has the highest magnitude of emotion Should get the highest priority an example could be is let's say you're thinking about Google photos And a pain point there could be as like you know to improve crash rate Now if you're somebody who's using Google photos and the app crashes anywhere, and you're about to take a picture those emotions can be anger frustration sadness and Just like rage right like let's say a dad is about to take a picture of his daughter Taking you know like swimming with a unicorn rainbow dolphin, and it's like a two second moment and pulls out the phone and the app crashes Now it's only two seconds, and you know it's a crash and it's a metric But from an emotion it invokes a lot and that can have a huge down to stream effect How that person feels not just about Google photos, but about the entire ecosystem of products that he's using and It can have serious consequences down the line Like I said death by a thousand paper cuts And if you think about prioritizing that you can kind of then say okay This invokes a lot of emotion, but if we solve for this The flip side is when things work and somebody's able to just capture that moment, and then it's there forever That creates a real strong bond Because then that is going to be used downstream for things like showing you memories in a year two years three years It's going to create an album for you It's going to show you four years before four years later And that is life by a thousand paper cuts, and I think that's like another way of thinking about stack ranking based on emotion Then we have the jobs to be done framework which For those who are familiar You know There is kind of like job theory if anybody's not familiar There's a lot of great literature online But basically what job theory is trying to say is that whenever somebody uses your product They're hiring your product to do a certain job for them the most I think classic example is you know a lot of folks used to think or like a fast-food chain used to think that To win with their milkshakes they had to make better milkshakes than all the other competitors milkshakes But you actually kind of end up seeing that a milkshake competes with other products that you're making Based on the job somebody's hiring milkshake for so the example was people buying milkshake in the morning And they take a milkshake and they commute with it to work So somebody was asking them like why are so many people buying milkshakes? Why aren't they buying a banana or coffee or a sandwich and they were saying you know their ride is fairly long They don't want to be too full before they get to work So they have room for breakfast They need something that fits in the cup holder They need something that they can hold on the steering wheel and they need something that keeps them busy while they're driving and The milkshake does all that and it's pretty thick so it takes you a while to drink it but it's not too filling so you can enjoy breakfast when you're at work and Job theory says like this milkshake was hired to Keep you kind of full and busy on your way to work in a way that's convenient and safe And it's competing with a banana that you know you could finish really quickly in your board It competes with the sandwich, which isn't really practical to eat while you're driving or is it safe? it competes with coffee, which you may finish really quickly and so on and so forth, but if you kind of look at Jobs to be done and like the way it's broken out Whether it's the main job to be done or related jobs to be done. You'll see that it fans out into Functional aspects, which I think we think about a lot in product management But notice how much more it fends out on the emotional aspects and the emphasis on even breaking that down or not just saying like What's the individual's personal dimensions of? How this is going to make them feel but also social dimensions So like I was saying with the invisible walls earlier It's not just about how it's gonna make me feel like I'm going to feel like I'm good at my job It's that others are going to perceive me as good at my job as well So and what I kind of like about this is, you know, it really Looks at emotions more broadly and deeply Than the functional needs which usually it's kind of the opposite like we tend to get very Bogged down into the functional aspects of what we're building And on the line of job theory or kind of job stories, you know We all a lot of us kind of grew in a world where there was user stories And it would say as a user I want to so I can and jobs theory kind of came up and said Let's change the as a user to the situation. So we have context of what somebody's doing So we go from like the situation to the motivation to the expected outcome but in a another way we can like throw feelings into here is by kind of adding the the feeling Just before the I want to because as we explored earlier Decisions start with an emotion So we could say it's like when I'm doing something It makes me feel So-and-so and therefore And then you go into what you want to do so that you can do something and that's kind of the logic of why you want to do something already Now I want to talk for a second about the light The light is probably like an emotion or sparked emotion that comes up a ton when we talk about product management and building products It's the ultimate thing right customer delight. We want to create delightful experiences that people rave about and The definition of delight is to be greatly pleased about something But then there's a question of like, how do you create it and here's a thought or here's an idea So let's imagine that there is like a delight equation and this is based on my personal like subjective experience Delight it basically equals a positive emotional response plus a Moment that exceeds your expectations or an experience that exceeds your expectations and it just works now the priority of order of these things is Intentional because you can see it starts with how it makes me feel and then it goes to an expectation Which is also somewhat like based on Like an emotional world and then it ends with the functional and the question is kind of how can Delight or this kind of view be applied with you know applying kindness and emotions to building experiences so one example is Applying this to the triad model and metrics triad model being that Like a lot of companies. There's a product manager a designer and engineering manager Working as a trio the kind of drive an area or a team Now if we look at this from like a drive perspective again We have a positive emotional response. You could map that to what design owns or desirability, right? Which is kind of designs decision-making area exceeding expectations you could align that with product management, which is you know pms on the viability and It just works. You could map that to engineering that ultimately owns feasibility And on the metrics side we have again positive emotional response could be mapped to qualitative data surveys customer interviews research Exceeding expectation you could measure that with quantitative data So things like usage metrics engagement, etc. And it just works you could map back to operational metrics like performance and reliability on the engineering side and These are just examples, but it's kind of one take on What are the components of delight? How do they match with emotion and how can they trickle through? Kind of all of our different operating models Now I wanted to show you some really cool Examples of they're not necessarily like in a classic product but I think it's all everything that happens from a product is part of the product experience and This example from slack is just kindness and motion and this went viral and I think are in slack a lot of deserve love If you look at the date summer 2021 kind of in the middle of the craze pandemic wise and They didn't really have any new feature to talk about but they took the opportunity To just sound as human as possible Not just think about oh, we don't have anything new to say in our world They thought about the grander world and actually applied like the highest level of kindness and Just ask people on the human level. Hey like based on the shared context. We have How are you doing are you taking care of yourself and they've remind people to be kind to themselves and to those around them And I think this is one of those things that carries a lot beyond just release notes Another cool example is an older example Which I've kind of always really liked is from Trello and it kind of conveyed the same thing in a bit of a different way You know release notes can come across as like a brand is talking and giving bullet points of what they've done It doesn't feel very human but adding that little slayer of humanity in In kind of actually asking people to leave reviews, but in a very kind of Non-assuming or even silly way is a great way to build experiences and it doesn't always just have to be with text or copy That lightness can actually convey a kindness that actually Helps people take their guards down and say oh cool Yeah, like it's good to remember that there's people just like me right there on the other side and it's easier to relate And this is my personal example So when the pandemic hit I was at this I was member of this gym And I hadn't even thought about like what to do everybody was shelter in place and just worried about being safe and being home and They kind of exceeded expectations by making a great business decision in my opinion and They could have decided to Not refund me and freeze everything and say listen it's crazy pandemic it's ruining our business and Bear with us, but no what they do they they front loaded out all the happiness and compassion And they basically said like don't worry about it. It's frozen and we won't charge you and when you're ready to come back and They basically put themselves in our shoes and as customers And in that moment, I felt like I'm not a customer anymore. I felt like a partner like I genuinely from that moment on Wanted to see them succeed and I don't think that those things are possible Unless that kind of emotion of me feeling that they care Comes across Cool to finish off. I wanted to recommend some kind and emotional reading just based on Not everything but some things that I've read over the years which has stood out and I've taken to my professional life as a product manager But also to my personal life and if anybody has ever read some of the posts that I've written on linkedin over the years I've constantly married between My personal life as a parent and my observations of my children And how that actually inspires me as a product manager at work So some some of the books this is a classic in my opinion start with why by summons neck It was an incredible writer speaker um The the short of this book is Kind of saying that a lot of companies tend to think about how they're going to do something What they're going to do about it and then they finish off with why And his suggestion years back was to flip that on its head And actually showed great examples Of why some of the best companies we know and best leaders that we know start with why And I think as product managers That's something that we're always kind of pushed to do You could say why it's like the the problem statement etc, but great book a lot of like emotional intelligence built in this one as well The next one is solve for happy. This is by mogau dots who is the previous chief business officer at google x and I think just an incredible human being with this unbelievable ability to marry between Very high like incredible and political thinking and amazing spiritual knowledge In a way that just like takes you on a journey and He ends up breaking down like an equation for happiness Which is very easy to understand, but you can understand that it takes a lot to get to that and Uh personally, I've been inspired by my personal life And I've actually used this happiness equation Um with that inspiration in different experiences that I've built with different teams Um, so I think it's applicable like I said to kind of multiple things Then we've got adam grants who's uh, wonderful. I think he's organizational psychologist I'm sorry if I'm not representing what he does correctly But I remember when he came out with this book, um, it's a pretty short read and My takeaway that I love from it and I mentioned this earlier in the presentation was Uh, how much better givers Do in organizational environments? And I think also in life Then takers where we usually come from like a background where We're encouraged to like take what we want take what we deserve And he makes the case for givers and I think there's nothing more aligned with Kindness and making sure that you leave people feeling the right way Um than that so highly recommended And last but not least, uh, like I mentioned before brunet brown Dare to lead wonderful book talks a lot about vulnerability Tough conversations how to lead at work what it means to even be courageous at work Um I remember as soon as I read this I used so many of these applications directly with teams that I worked with and it was transformational And the parting thought I want to leave you with is This screenshot of from an article that jeff weiner former ceo of linkedin Posted I think it was in 2015 and I keep on coming back to this one And it was an article about his five dimensions of a great product And you can kind of see there's like small texts Uh an example of the product he's talking about so you kind of get an idea And going from like left to right you've got delivers on a singular value proposition at the time I think he was talking about the iphone I think that's still relevant. The second one he was talking about simple intuitive and anticipates needs his example was ways as a gps app which Over time was like very simple. It does something very complex very easy to use and You know like when you leave your house to go to work it anticipates that it's like, oh, you want to work You want me to navigate them? The next one is exceeds expectations and I honestly don't always remember what's in that image I'm pretty sure it's both where you know small speaker just blows your mind with like the quality of sound And the last two are my favorite and it kind of sums up everything. I'm trying to talk about today He spoke at the time about tesla And he said it's way more than a car. It's electric and fast and fun Like it's a feeling when you get into it And it just emotionally resonates and when you look at it, it's so much more than a functional car That can do all the things that it can do and I think that's ultimately what we're all trying to get at when we're building experiences and The last one is changing the customer's life for the better and that's the you know the ultimate of where we're all trying to go and Changing somebody's life for the better. I think the best way to measure that is You know to basically see an outcome and if you've done that there's no question That you have changed The way somebody feels For the better you've left them probably happier feeling more successful more fulfilled And just having a very strong emotional resonance with your product, which will ultimately keep them very happy customers And with that being said I wanted to thank everybody for listening to me today. I hope you found this helpful or useful I would love to Answer any questions you have if you want to reach out to me directly You can find me on linkedin feel free to send me a connection request or send me a message I'll do my best to answer as quickly as I can And again, thank you so much and have a wonderful rest of your day