 Good morning. I certainly hope this can be trimmed from any video recording display. Morning, Mark. Good morning. Look, humans. Good morning. Good morning, humans. How are you? Good. How's the business of being human today? That's fine as humanly possible. Really? Oh, that's so cool. It's my favorite occupation. Yeah. I'm into it myself. Yeah, it's turned out all right. It's a question of measurements, I find. Like, more human and less human. There are times. I think it's a question of magnetism. Yeah, and like what circles you wrote sort of revolve in and all that and makes a big difference. Yeah, and pandemic has been weird that way, because on in the one hand we're all trapped we're all prisoners of zoom, but that gives us insane flexibility for who we associate and how whatever travel is just not an act, not actually even an issue, etc, etc. So, you know, might be traveling back to Portland in December. Yay. Oh, and I met BZ yesterday. You did. Yes, we had coffee together. Oh, how wonderful. How did that go? BZ Petro. She's delightful. Isn't she? She's delightful works for everybody else. She works at the archive and as human resources and used to be in animation movies, all that kind of stuff. So we had a great conversation about Pixar and a bunch of other good things. No, yeah, she's absolutely wonderful. She is one of the more human as opposed to less human humans. We like more humans. We like more humans. But maybe not in the sense of H plus or whatever I didn't watch that whole series but there was a really good series about enhanced humans I think called H plus on you visible on YouTube in short segments. I'll, I'm gonna have to start finding resources, but I didn't watch enough of it but Dwayne Hendricks said you've got to watch this you got to watch this because all about human augmentation a little bit like altered carbon but without all the fiction plot and everything that's more toward what reality might be like the humanity plus.org. But I think whenever you get a humanity plus you tend to get humanity minus. I don't know how that can be. Is it a package. Well, you know it's. I love what Ken Homer says about inclusion in in HR and then basically, you know, every human has equal dignity. And when you come with inclusion exclusion. It's, it's still a sorting it's still a selection process. We have to select people for HR, you know. You know, I poke at the conceptual defaults. When we make distinctions. Are we being in our minds, sort of supportive of biases and prejudices or kind of trying to, in some way be more human, have a more human perspective. And this is something I don't know. It's kind of a passionate confusion to to try and ask these questions. One of the eight superpowers in April's new book is called be all the more human. The book, by the way, is going crazy. Wow, she is just having success after success. Really exciting stuff. It's on fire. It's on fire. She she put in an enormous amount of work, including including spending like a couple weeks cleaning her emails and moving them to MailChimp but a whole bunch of really manual stuff that only she could kind of do. There's a couple programs you can run your mailing list through that'll say these are probably spam addresses and these are probably like broken. But then you've got to sort of sit and look at everybody to figure out who you're going to send that hey I've got I've written a book note to. So she did that which like, it was just sort of hard. But then a whole bunch of other things happening and it's like, it's a dream roll out so it's working really really well. And here's, let me just type in the seventh superpower summary into our chat. Aren't there eight? Yes, but the seventh one, the one I'm just bringing in this conversation is be all the more human, which looks like that. There we go. Yeah. Hey Grace. Nice to see you. I just want to say last week's conversation about the metaverse here was special. It was really cool. I didn't start as a weaving the world conversation but I'd like to make it a weaving the world conversation and package it as such so expect that to sort of turn into something in the next couple days. The last couple of mornings we've had sort of OGM ops, sorry, build OGM call on Tuesday, weaving the world ops yesterday and every one of those conversations has kind of evolved and improved the idea of what on earth are we doing here and how does weaving the world fit with the common artifacts we're building and all that. And the strange thing that happens is that when we're rolling and when the conversation is hot is when we have the best ideas and then like they're hard to paint when you just walk into the room. You're like, oh okay got to work up that excitement again or got to got to paint the mutual picture again in some sense so so we're getting there. And markets flux by this woman April many who happens to be my better half. Yeah, and let me just give you a link to let me add a link to the eight flux superpowers in my brain, so that you can wander around what I know about the book. I've also been keeping a clipping file for her. So that's a that's a link to the eight flux superpowers. And then if you nose around to the book you'll under the book you'll see a flux clippings, and she's been getting all sorts of press and all and all of that so I keep links to it. There, I don't have all of them but the majority of them. She's written and posted a bunch of pieces I've got those in a separate place. And all of that is in context in some sense. Any thoughts before we sort of launch into a little round of check ins or any questions about last week's call. Any, I'd love any comments about the alternating between topic and check in rhythm for these are Thursday calls like is that working okay. Should we change it. What do you think all is good in the world. I do the new way that sounds really interesting to me I like that actually yeah that's our that's our present format we've, we're busy. What we're doing is we're using the matter most chat for this channel for the GM calls to pick a topic for the next week, except last time Wendy McClain basically said hey let's talk about the meta person we're like okay good. So just came out with their announcement and it's a hot topic and we had a really interesting start of a conversation that we want to sort of build on a bit as well but so so kind of an open question right now is what should next Thursday's call be. And then we're going to stick with the check in process for the alternating calls, because that's kind of how we figure out who's here and what we're working on. Hey Michael. Any other thoughts on process or where we are. What struck me is that the route the two types of meetings are not as different as I expected. Well, my, my approach toward the check ins is whenever somebody says something that's kind of juicy to just like, open it up and see what's on the table and, and sometimes we'll spend 20 minutes in that topic and sort of still going. And then we'll kind of work our way slowly back to the check in so those those portions of our check ins are very salami or, or something like that we're we sort of had that direction. So that's true. So observations. Cool. How about we go. Mark Stacy Doug. I'm not sure I have that much to say. The 10th annual future of text conference is tomorrow 70 Pacific time and Saturday. Pacific time plus seven in the morning Pacific time they kind of split it for, I guess, Asian folks to be able to connect for the haigland has been around. Gosh, I first encountered him in like 2005. He's a designer, and he's getting his PhD, I think at the open university. But basically he's gathering all kinds of people who are incredibly interested in language, and he's created a number of different tools, organized a number of different very innovative software situations and I highly suggest it. Let's see. And yeah, above us pass on anything else at the moment. Um, do you want to give us a taste for the conversation or the topic future of text is interesting broadly but I think it gets really specific and so forth. You'll notice also I put Proto and potential OGM co conspirators which is a hidden thought in my brain but these are people who are doing really really interesting work that I who I haven't approached about joining here and probably should but can you give us just a taste for what was up. Okay, well, I'm pretty much all of the conferences are on YouTube. He's also has a YouTube channel called augmented text, I believe, where he has Monday and Friday, open office hours, events and monthly office, open office hours, then surf and Bob Horn and a number of different people show up. Boy, the future of text goes from is the future of text bright or dark. It's without without bright and dark you can't be next you have to have that kind of darn it. Okay, good point. Good point. Yeah, foreground and background. So I would foreground diversity of people who show up and talk. They're kind of like lightning talks. 10 minutes of talking five minutes of questions so there's a bunch of different people. The book, the future of text has been out and it's downloadable for free. And there's dozens of different luminaries, talking about the future of text he didn't get enough contributors for a second edition. So they're kind of just extending it by bit by bit. You know, I would basically say diversity. I don't yet have a central organizing principle that I could kind of say goes across. But hey, there's a lot of creativity and tension, given how we communicate with our words. Unfortunately, I have to use words to talk to you. Fortunately, you have to use words to listen to me. My own things that's striking about how those approach the text is it's highly aesthetic, which makes it very interesting. Yeah, my, my favorite metaphor for kind of language and how we communicate is that is that there's like a little tube connecting humans and then I have to use a very tiny paintbrush and words which are like little paint strokes, and I have to quickly paint an impressionist image in your head with the words that I use as best I can, knowing fully that when I think I'm using like a purple violet, it's going to turn into like a crimson in your head, because damn it the colors don't actually sort of match. So just a couple seconds to like light up an image in your head, and then hope that it's sort of close to what I thought I was communicating and if we're if I'm lucky. And we're communicating well you'll mirror back to me that, you know, sort of got it and it registers this way or oops did you mean this or that we have like maybe an error correction loop, but but this little this little serial device of language is like for me like very much like impressionist painting. Great. That was really interesting. Let's go Stacy Doug grace. Um, well I don't have that much to share other than I've been getting a lot of bad headaches. And I mentioned to Jerry that I couldn't get an appointment with the medical professional until March, March, March. So I had been discussing that with Wendy and she recommended a homeopathic cure which I ordered and since I ordered it I've been getting all this new reading material, which brings me back to my original interest, which is the power of light and healing. And when I start going there and looking into that which is probably where I'm what I'm going to spend most of my time doing. It reminds me of my original interest in sound frequency so hearing you know this whole thing with talk and text and sound. It's just triggers a lot of wheels going. And that's about. Thank you. We're friends with Ivy Ross who was a member of my relationship economy expedition back in 2010. And we held a meeting at her house near. What's the name of Albuquerque. And she has a room. She's heavily into sound she's also into Chinese face reading, and a few other things she's been the, I think the manager of Google heart Google glass or something like that and now I think she's at Google X. Anyway, she had a room full of like you could sit under a bunch of tubular bells that would make noise and feel the vibrations and I've forgotten all the different setups but it was all about sounds of different frequencies and vibrations and how they interact with the body is quite, quite fascinating. I don't know that she gives tours or anything like that but one day when I'm one day when I'm more prepared I'll tell you about a very expensive sound bed that I purchased that I had been using for a long time. Yeah, it was it was pretty amazing. You know, they have everything's in different frequencies, and you lay on this zero gravitational kind of bed and it massages you at the same time and it's, you know ties and meditation it's amazing, it really is I, but that's a story for another day. It's just too created a bed, an artist in England, I'll try to look that up. It's a song, it's a sound bed as well. Interesting. Yeah, thank you. Doug Grace skill. I've really been on my mind and about which I'd like your opinions is the following. Is climate change, a final nudge towards creating an effective world government and I would think like alien invasion would be a good reason for that too right is there some is there some catalyzing event that affects us all that will bring us all together into some government climate change that event. Right, exactly. Anybody. It looks to me like there's no possibility. We can stay under two degrees with anything like current approaches, so that we're in a really bad way, and we need something really different. Doug, I think that there has to be not exactly sure how to put this but basically taking the term fractalization or fractal. So, I've been having campfires with three people and two people who don't know each other, and we just let the conversation emerge. There should be another larger scale like maybe the nine people that we have here, another larger scale, like, maybe short of a classroom short of 30 people, but certainly the classroom scale, you know, neighborhood. Part of a city, city by a region, you know, going up to global. I don't think you get global government without sort of that global globally harmonized scale. I don't think we can simply say, okay, you people who are way up there, go fix it. I don't think that's the way it can work. And so I would be as interested in, say, you know this global kind of government as having a girlfriend. And meaning that, you know, the intimacy that comes from a relationship and pay I invite everybody if you know anybody who's female who, or identifies as female who is interested. And start like the OGM dating service that's exactly I am turning 59 and I'm asking for help. So, let's see. But my point is, how do we integrate the relationships of people who are honest citizens have an honest citizen re intent and basically integrate along many different scales of possible connection or actual connection to the issues that we care about. Does that make sense Doug, could you respond to that. Yeah, but I think we just don't have time for that kind of organic emergence. I imagine, and I'm when I say I imagine it's not adequate but it's just beginning in my own one that seven wise men choose to come together and say we are going to take charge here. We're asking the world's countries to give us access to their military to control the situation, and that we open up the oil companies and stop the burning of fossil fuels and develop a welfare program to take care of all the people that are hurting and realize it's a very messy process. But what else can we do. All the organic for localization processes without some integration to the global level are not going to be able to take on the well companies. You've got some background noise do you mind meetings. Yeah, that's true. On the alien. You know, it's interesting you're saying about I, to me when I saw what happened at COP 26 and every time the governments get together is for me it feels like it has to be a much more organic or business led solution. I don't think the governments are going to ever get together there's too much nationalism too much separatism. You know, but I think, you know, call me a cynic but I think that when business gets behind it and realize it's actually going to be more expensive to destroy the world. I think we have a lot better chance of things happening. Actually that's far from the most cynical thing you might have said right there. Actually, like, we're hopeful that business could help that's good. That's not that cynical. I never give up hope completely. That's good. And people are trying to hack the system so they're trying to win, you know, board majority board seat majorities at some of these companies so that they can change the entire company. A couple of other things like that this morning I saw a thread of, let's buy Monsanto, let's buy Bayer Monsanto. Basically, you know, let's all just buy a lot of shares in this thing until we can control the shares. So people are demanding it I think it's coming actually oddly enough bottom up with consumers. I think we are realizing what kind of power we have just exactly with you know workers now are are finally having some kind of power as well. I don't know if it's, will be enough to shift but hopeful. Grace then Gil who raises him a little earlier. I guess, like, it may be true that we don't have time, but, and that, you know, but it doesn't matter. It's not that when you talk about like oh we're going to come in and have the military and some wise people and whatever. It's, it's clear to me that there is nothing that is so urgent and horrible that they're bringing us together. And I know that because we just had two years of pandemic and utter and complete failure, horrible censorship of the scientific staff establishment, even bigger censorship, all over the world we now have the truth in whatever initiative whatever that's called truth and information initiative, where all of the major newspapers and social media sites. Tell us what scientific truth is. I mean, it's so bad that it is clear to me that something as urgent as you and your children will die from a disease is not urgent enough. And it's just been flubbed completely. If the number if the more if the fatality rate were 50% as opposed to 2%. I think the conversation might be genuinely different. But I'm not sure. Right, but that's his premise in ministry for the future, right, you know is that a 20 million people in a few weeks death event catalyzed this attention, but even that turns out not be enough. That turns out to not be enough. I read the whole thing. It takes it takes the decentralized governance in the form of drone swarms, you know, terrorist drone swarms to bring the system to heal. It takes a number of things right it takes an institution like what the institution did was redefine money it redefined money twice and it redefined the media I think it's a pretty realistic depiction of the magnitude of what has to happen on many different fronts probably not what will happen but yeah, I mean you just looked at that I think the ministry of the future gave a very very good outlook at like, these are all the things that need to change and I work in the area of money, because as long as money is our main transaction method. There's, you know, and it is going to come from the ground up because money is bankrupt but I think that even looking at the pandemic, it's like the callousness of the world to one another I mean it's not even from up to day it's just everywhere just this callousness and break down of culture that is, yeah, that's what I have to say. Gil then can. Well, we're going to start here. And this until you're on my check in list also this is not your check in so much as what I thought you wanted to comment on this thread. Oh, okay yeah let me that helps me just. Yeah, you're due for checking in just a second. Okay so some comment piece. Oh golly. Doug Carmichael I love you dearly, but I don't love the direction you're going on this. You know, the, the, the, the story of the, you know, seven wise powerful people who will bring sense to this whole thing depends on pick, you know who's going to pick who those people are. The, we have a system of, of, of, you know, of wise apes that have you know with a 10s of thousands of years of history of cooperation cooperation small groups in a planetary system governed by sociopaths. So in my view, the seven picked themselves. We are going to lead. And the ones who will pick to lead who can muster the forces who can clobber the countries and gather the armies are going to be sociopaths to. What's it going to take for countries to yield themselves to this group of seven when they won't even yield themselves to a gathering of 200 other fellow countries. I had a friend who was this week just decrying the failure of cop as a guaranteed failure because it was a consensus process. How do you get to a situation where people are going to, where people in countries are going to suborn their sovereignty to the larger global interest. And that's the mystery grace I don't think that that the cove thing was an utter and complete failure was an utter incomplete failure. You know there was enormous mobilization there was vaccines produced in record time there was $9 trillion of investment manifested without anybody ever asking where the money's going to come from. So there's some amazing. Look, go on. I'm starting from the idea that there's nothing going on that's going to keep us from going up to four degrees and above. Well, so we've got to do something really different. So we've got to release our imagination to come up with things that if they could work would actually do it and we don't have everybody of those. I totally agree with that. And, and I think, you know, the, the, the September it may not be imaginative enough for us here I'm looking for something that's more imaginative than that. I don't have a lot of faith in that one. I've been reading the Graber and when grew up the dawn of everything, which I strongly strongly recommend that people read that we talk more about. And skeptical is good too. Sounds like a plumbing part but still, yeah, you know, the so far I'm about about an eighth of the way through so far my main takeaway so far is that in the in the last, you know what 3050 100,000 years of human history you have an enormous variety of social forms and social organization and they're putting forth humans as an experimental species. So we're not in a linear development path we're in and out of different forms, not only on historical scales but even on seasonal scales of tribes that are authoritarian and part of the year and egalitarian and part of the year based on the resource activities required in different times so. And of course, you know, Graber as as a leading anarchist thinker has great faith and the ability of humans to voluntarily associate and figure shit out. In fact, part of the story they tell us that in a lot of the original human formations, people spent a lot of time talking with each other about everything. All day, you know it wasn't a lot of time taken to gather stuff and then and survival and a lot of time we spent talking and thinking and imagining and making decisions together. This goes back also to Marshall salons who was, who was his PhD advisor. It's a remarkable read and so you know in the optimism of Graber I then think about good Lord how challenging is just to live with one other person, or a family, or an extended family and just how enormously challenging that is. Now granted that's in the context of a broken society. But I'm sort of pulled between the contrast of those and you know it's back and not in the abstract the context of Doug's question, which I think about a lot you know what does it take. And it's, it's frankly right now hard to see to what I think Ingrid you were saying, business is already in the lead on this business is ahead of government in many parts of the world and my, I think my current main takeaway from the cop is that the leadership shifts from the net from the national governments to the street to the kids in the street and to Wall Street, who is moving very quickly to shift capital priorities and allocation. Big, big financial managers are divesting from fossil and moving into renewables hard. And that may have more impact than any chunk of legislation we're able to propagate the other. Um, can then me then back to the queue. Hello everybody. Yay. I'm hoping that someone here is more versed in what I'm going to require about that I am. I recently came across something about youth in China laying down in the streets. Yeah, yeah, what I took away from that because I didn't see the whole thing was that they were saying, you know, we're not going to frickin work in factories 1215 hours a day for low wages because we can make the same amount of money delivering pizzas. And there's it's enormous youth movement that's just saying we reject the current economic ordering. And related to that, those of you who know John Perkins confessions of an economic hit man, his book a few years ago, you're another book that I read which I don't remember the title of it was about his time in South America. And he put forth the, the assertion that the reason that several of the large cities there failed was because people recognized they needed to abandon the city and go back to the jungle they could not continue to sustain themselves and the collectively they said, this isn't working for us we have to get out of here we have to go back to the jungle because we can't. We've got too many people concentrated one place it's not working anymore. So, is it this one is that she could just your American empire. Here's confessions which is, which is the most interesting worst written book I've read in 40 years he's a shit writer, he has a shit writer, but his stories are fantastic stories are amazing yeah, it might have been secrets your American empire. Yeah, but. So I just throw this two things out as to go along with what Gil's talking about from dawn of everything which I got my audible copy yesterday haven't started yet. I think that one of the biggest challenges that we have is is the challenge of imagination that we try to go into problem solving this issue and it ain't going to be problem solved it's a fucking wicked mega mess and requires huge thinking of imagination. And so my question is, what does it look like for us to come together as as collectives of all stripes everywhere and start imagining a better future and not worry about. Is it possible or not things people will never go for that just start painting those big pictures. And if enough of us do that sooner or later we're going to start to call us some things that are going to be really viable. So, I think the problem is imagination I don't think the problem is money. Thanks, Ken. Let me put a couple thoughts in the room on this topic and then go to Doug and then back with you. So one is, I think a lot about big G government versus little G governance. And I think that we've like we were breaking big G government big G governments are failing to act they're capturable etc etc. And one of the nice things about grassroots distributed and artistic movements is that they're less subject to capture is the moment you have a pyramid. It's like, Oh, awesome. All I have to do is capture the top of the pyramid and we're rock and roll and and if a peasant from the state of Georgia captures the, you know, US SR's pyramid. Look what happens, you know, tens of millions of people die from stupid policies, all kinds of really, really bad stupid things happen when a when a paranoid peasant takes over like a large country that has a lot of resources. And so I'm very interested in governance self governance, how do how do governance methods interpenetrate how do they collaborate how does this work at a social scale. That's like like hugely important to me. And I think actually more doable than we think it is. And I see Graber and one grows book as like really nice evidence that hey, we've been experimenting a really long time we know how to do this. But let's sort of go there. And I like Graber's background as an anarchist because I think he comes from that belief system that we are able to piece together really like useful methods. Together, and there's more to say there but the second thing I'll say is borrowing from the Navy seals slow as smooth smooth as fast. And this is my problem with politics today is that you know, deep canvassing is slow canvassing it's like instead of stopping at the door and saying hey vote for so and so here's a pamphlet and leaving. You can stop and you start a conversation and 40 minutes later you might leave, and it turns out that if you slow down and actually have a conversation, you change more people's minds being. And this is, this is the bare bones little tip of the iceberg of actually a long term relationship building and trying to actually come back into the fabric of society, and sharing what we know and helping people out when they're in trouble. So there are a lot of things you could do there that are more interesting than deep canvassing, but the lessons of deep canvassing are this slowing down actually changes minds and changes behavior, and that's great. Let's do, let's do more of that. And that's going to take goddamn time. Right. And then there's a whole bunch of people who are either millenarianists or believe in the great turning. I mean Steve Bannon is a big believer in the great turning hypothesis that said that every 70 years is this great cycling through of social systems. Steve wants to be the guy who's still alive on deck. When the existing current system is broken and shattered and lying on the ground and pieces so that he can be the one, maybe the one of the new seven to stand it up and say this is how we're going to live life now. That's his hope. And there's a whole bunch of other people who believe in the rapture or in some other thing, who are perfectly happy to destroy the systems we have right now. And he'll be willing to go to four degrees or whatever it takes to sort of pick up the pieces and be in control of what's left. And that's the fantasy that they're living in, and it's going to be really hard to tear that fantasy out of their heads or their hands. I think that that we're living in a world where there's a third to a half of the population that believes strongly in some sense of that. And that scares the shit out of me. And I'm really interested. One of the reasons Daryl Davis is one of my heroes is that he's been melting the hearts and brains of Ku Klux Klan members in a way where they leave the clan. And the clan is a belief system in a community and a whole bunch of other things that are mutually reinforcing that are extremely strong until they're not. So I think that there's parallels here. I think there's parallels about the millenariness. Let's ruin this rock on purpose so that we can reconstruct a kind of thing. I think those people can be walked back. And that's going to be slow and take some time to do. Right. And so, so then the last thing I'll say is about collimation. You know lasers collimate light. And one of the things that the far right has figured out is how to collimate energy and light and human activity. And they're extremely good at that. And they punish anybody who steps out of line. If you go off message you are punished immediately and very, very sharply. And if you look at the censure of Gosar that just happened yesterday. So only a couple Republicans were kind of willing to go for didn't vote to who've already who are already Republican Mavericks and already under attack daily from Republicans kind of moved over but but everybody's not willing to move because the second too many people move over and it was interesting that 10 Republicans voted for the the infrastructure project 12 I think, and the four Democrats voted against that was actually the first gesture of hey maybe these boundaries are a little softer than they could be. But the second that the dam breaks the dam actually really breaks and then whole systems change much quicker than we think they do. Right. So, so piece of what I'm really worried about is the left, and here I don't mean the political left I mean, progressives who believe in climate change who think that we need that the houses on fire that we need to make urgent change are just scattered all over the place with a bunch of different messages. I kind of don't want them to collect up and collimate their energies into one message I don't think that's actually a good idea or possible. And so I'm trying to figure out in my own little head. How does distributed activity in an anarchist governance model with a whole bunch of people doing a whole lot of things. So let's get into the head of Exxon mobile and Shell and BP and take them down and crawl into the coal companies and slow them down and stop them. And how do we do those kind of large scale things but in a very distributed way. And in the meantime, rebuild community and come back into society and sort of fix stuff that's broken because we're actually going to, if Kevin, if Kevin Costner is right in water world and got. I'm just hoping Kevin Costner was wrong wrong wrong, the postman water world. And there's a third movie that he did which is a shitty like dystopian science fiction movie. These are all like futures we're looking at right now. Right. Like like living on the oceans probably going to have water levels sea levels rise three quarters the earth is covered in ocean we might actually be in floating cities, etc, etc. I'm just hoping Kevin Costner is wrong wrong wrong. The process to get to the thing that might fix this is going to be slow. And if slow is smooth and smooth as fast that would be great because maybe then we have we stand a chance. But but for me the authoritarian, let's get seven people will emerge and they'll take over the militaries and forced the companies to close and all that is a dystopian science fiction novel Doug, like, like, I hear that and I'm like, wow, I might actually be in the rebel resistance against that, because I can easily see those pinch points becoming, you know, ways in which people run their own agenda and right now there's a whole bunch of people who want to run their own agenda or across the whole world. And if they had control of military, who hop, then all bets are off and I watched the slaughterbots video a couple years ago which scared the hell out of me, because there is nothing preventing slaughterbots from actually happening. It's really easy to manufacture little drones, making making them lethal there's 15 different ways to make them lethal. They are cheap as hell, and really hard to stop unless you run an EMP. And you could probably shield these little things so that they would resist like an electromagnetic pulse. I don't want to be the Secretary of Defense or the Secret Service for the next 1015 20 years. Like this, this stuff is really like dangerous lethal, and good luck trying to rein in autonomous lethal force with a eyes that know how to kill, like, good luck raining that in worldwide. When Paris organizations don't need to obey anybody's agenda or whatever else that that's going to be ugly so sorry to wander into like 10 different territories there but, but this is all kind of a package for me and I'm really worried that the far right is figuring out how to make a laser beam, and the far left has a bunch of flashlights on seabass. And I think that that doesn't that that doesn't bode well unless we figure out how to talk to each other trust each other and build good stuff together fast. So, I think imagination is critical, and the seven men, the seven leaders I didn't say men the seven leaders approach is one kind of pseudopodia of imagination out into the unknown. And many of you know, I'm on the opposite side because I've been drafting a book called garden world politics, which is how to get the local to really work. And the need for it, because I think that the major human needs are food and habitat ought to be solved together in the spirit of the Italian hill towns and things like that. And it's an attractive you. We go to the seven leaders, because the problem seems huge is cross border and might require cross border solutions, and we don't have a way of getting there, unless somebody steps forth and says we're going to do it. So I'm myself thinking, neither of those pseudopodia garden world and the seven leaders are yet. We need more imagination, but I do want to face the fact that most people what they're saying, get this get us there. We've got to do something about the fossil fuels. And I don't hear anybody saying, and it has to open the door and take those guys out. And it happens, it has to happen very quickly. And it's a little bit like, Hey, we've got some problems we're going to have to throw the refrigerator and the stove and the furnace out the window. It's like, bullshit, we're not doing that. And you can see the coal industry saying, yeah, I'm sorry, you're not just going to shut us down tomorrow that ain't happening and using everything within their power to stay alive. Right. And then there's no reason, kind of, other than the survival of humanity that they shouldn't have that response in this kind of setting. Mark, Mark then Gil. I don't know how to take this phrase. If you want peace study war, but certainly I believe in studying war. There's, I don't think this is well known about a recent war between Azerbaijan and Armenia, where Azerbaijan bought Israeli drones and basically won the war, you know, without endangering many of their soldiers. Now, this kind of ties into problems with artificial intelligence. It's not that artificial intelligence is going to get smart and kill us. It's that artificial stupidity in the use of artificial intelligence by not very ethical people, as well as use of, you know, non autonomous drones. Non autonomous drones by very unethical people. I mean, this is technology today and I, I'm not. I don't think, you know, basically, a lot of the people who are, you know, the, you know, artificial intelligence fear squad are really focusing on the in the right place. Okay, I'll have to go. Thanks, Mark. Oh, so many, so many threads here. Jerry, here's stuff about going slow. I mean, it's, but it's spoken like an Ikea doka. Just passed my second Q exam a week ago. And it takes slowing down but it also takes enormous practice to train the body and to train the nervous system to have different reactions. And excuse me and to react with patients, even in the face of the most urgent situation I mean that you know the setup here is that three guys are coming at you with knives and swords. And what do we do you have you absolutely have to not panic. You have to be calm, you have to move slowly if you don't you will die. And if you do you might survive even against overwhelming odds and this is. It's one thing to talk about this philosophically but this practice by keto you actually learn this in your body different ways of being in the face of conflict and stress and so you know the metaphor is very powerful I don't know how that how that scales out to society but there's something there. The other thing I wanted to say oh yeah yeah. There was a webinar yesterday with Bill McKibbin and Saul Griffith you all know when McKibbin's name saw as a MacArthur fellow based here in San Francisco and engineer and technologist, who's been doing some of the best nitty gritty nuts and bolts analytical work about what does it take to move to the sustainable regenerative renewable society. And this is a man who goes down deep into the numbers. And I'll see if I can find the link for the recording should be posted today. But the notion that we have to throw out all of our refrigerators heating systems and so forth just isn't true. I was on my webinar my living between worlds webinar yesterday somebody said we're gonna have to just have to live with with half the energy well not necessarily true. California is at half the energy per capita the United States has been for the last 50 years. And it was not that we'd have to get rid of all the devices I don't think that at all, but that the companies need to be shut down. I was metaphorically saying, an industry, an industry coal needs to be shut down. Yes. You mind meeting your, your mic. Sam can you mute. I'm probably can't hear you. I know. Sam, Sam. Can you mute please. I'm not host. Oh, okay. We're in the collective next chat and I have no, I have no power. Land of the mystery host. Yes, thanks. Thanks. Once you have to be shut down the colonists, you will die. The question is how fast. And I want to see it fast. But for the folks to say shut it down tomorrow, means you have millions of hundreds of millions of people who die rapidly there has to be a phase transition the question is do you phase it over 30 years, or three years. And I think part of the challenge and I hear this from what you're calling the left or the eco cluster, whatever it is as well is, is that we can't transition quickly and in fact we can't. You know, the United States did more time economy in 1942 and nine months. And that's back to what folks were saying at the top of the call of what's urgent enough to generate, you know, focused coordinated collective action, and it takes a common perception of what we're facing. If you'll indulge in a stick in the chat on the call yesterday we were talking about what Ken was saying before about messes about wicked messes and, you know, the problem solution mindset is just not sufficient to what we're facing here because there's not a problem to be fixed there's a whole bunch of twinkled shit, all interconnected, and very different interpretations of what the mess is. friend of mine says that prescription without diagnosis is malpractice. I'm really interested in the diagnosis. And my friend Chauncey bell says there's three elements to a good diagnosis one is stating what so and second is talking. Describing how we got here. And third is talking about why are we stuck. Why won't things move and I just sort of, you know, let me see if I can find this real quick. So this is long for the chat but I haven't done this into an article yet. So when I think about how and why are we stuck. These are the first 10 things come to my mind. And the point of it is not to say this is the right list say we have so many different places to look here this is not going to be a single strategy solution this is going to be. These are the kind of swarms of drones of people taking on these different elements of the stuckness. It's not something where you can throw a switch and fix it. Multi layered multi level inter penetrating pervasive and I've probably spoken too much so I'll leave it at that. So, you've all spoken about the need for imagination. So I have to say this is hard to make this comment but I wonder what it would look like if we amorphous eyes these industries that we want to get rid of just long enough to see, you know, imagine that they were a person with feeling and that we're connected to them in some way. How do we, how do we go, you know, it's like how do we treat the bully, or how do we try to meet their needs or take away their fears so that they're treating us as we're trying to make this change, because, you know, when I think about the people I mean I don't know a lot of people in the 1%, but the people that I've come across, and then those people going lower down. They're all some way connected. And there's this fear that whether they're aware of it or not that they will lose something. And when you, you know, when you go further and say yes I will lose something but what I'll get is so much better that makes that ship so much easier so I don't really have a clear answer but I'm just saying, what about if we just went to beginners mind for a minute, and just thought of this these organizations because they're made up of people, and they're not all bad people and they're not all the enemy. So, thank you. Just wanted to say that. I totally agree. And, and, and in slightly different in slightly different circumstances that we would be friends and be would be trying to figure out our way together through these things. I think Grace had the drop from the call. So we've got Gil if you want to do a check in then Ingrid then can. Yeah. The check in briefings I've spoken a lot is that like a lot of us I'm in turmoil right now and I'm settled. And part of it is trying to figure out this shit in the larger world. Part of it is health issues with myself and Jane Stacy echoing what you were saying earlier on Jane Jane is a homeopath. And they long term cancer patient and sort of living between the worlds of Western medicine and integrative medicine and very challenged right now. The trends, the trends are not good right now and she's really struggling trying to figure out what to do and I'm kind of support her and what to do. And it's, it's really challenging maybe in some ways similar to the climate discussion we're having because the right path is not clear at all. It has risks. Every path has consequences every path has uncertain results it says, you know, to a certain degree it's very much a personal choice to say I'm going to flip the client and go this way with, you know, with as much presence and awareness and thoughtfulness as possible in the midst of you know what's real life existential fear. And I've got my own versions of that with some health issues coming up and the doctor saying do this and the acupuncture saying, well, maybe you shouldn't do that. And, you know, and again, you know clear risks and consequences in any path, just very hard to figure out. And the other dimension of this is that as I've talked about in some calls before I'm once again trying to figure out trying to figure out what to do and I grow up, which is to say what's my work now, you know where is my contribution now in a way that, you know, this is a real contribution to the conundrum to the wicked messes that we're in, but that also can financially take care of me and Jane in a future where I may not be able to work 80 hours a week and I already can't. I can't work 40 at this point. And I know in my head that, you know, human productivity peaks probably somewhere around 30. I'm really happy if I can do a good 20 in a week can not know which part of that you're being so. So I'm just thinking a lot personally about, you know, what are my strengths, what are my skills, where's my contribution. How do I work this what you know. And the tip of the spear is kind of what are the offers that I make into the world. What are the, the economic offers that I make. And I would actually, if folks be willing, I would love to have some private conversations with those of you who know me more than just in this call to invite your perspective and guidance. Please raise your hand if you are asking yourself the same question Gil just asked. Jerry, thank you. That's wonderful. You're not alone. You're not alone. And this is a, and this is a good crowd to talk about these things with and we might even choose a topic like this for next Thursday's check in call or, you know, or GM call or something like how do we put our energies into the world our life and our remaining life energy into the world in a good way right now is a great question and an important question. So thank you. I've got Ingrid Ken John. It's interesting. I finally joined the call and maybe Gil you just sort of really hit it on the head with me in in so many ways, very similar things that I've been thinking about it's interesting I had a job opportunity that I was really excited about that I have to have to deal with net zero cities and climate change. I didn't get it. I was completely excited again which professionally which I haven't been in quite some time I have to say about anything that I'm earning money on. And, and it was, and then you know it was at the same time that cop 26 is happening and also again. I saw that and I thought, how do you make sense of all this I felt like watching another gathering of all the world leaders with their back room deals, not really confronting anything. You know, these, these, you know, milk toast kind of agreements coming out of it that mean nothing. You know, yeah, it's a really difficult time right now and I think, I think one of the other things I think about too is the Netherlands just got put into a, you know, lockdown here for three weeks because our numbers are crazy it's really mostly kids that are getting it there is just such a collective sense of we're exhausted. We're exhausted by what we've gone through in the last year and a half. We still have these huge things confronting us that we have to deal with, and they are right here, you know, the flooding the wildfires. Yeah, what do we do with this collective sense of exhaustion. And how do we keep up, you know, just an excitement about it. And I will say that though, you know, just as an aside when I had the opportunity at this job and I thought it would happen I suddenly became, you know, a whirlwind of excitement and, and hopeful and enthusiastic But yeah, anyway, that's what I'm wrestling with is sort of trying how to stay in the game how to really, you know, make a decision and, and, and go for something when there are so many things so that's just where I am this week. Thank you. Thank you very much. We had Ken, John, Michael. So, I'm in a very interesting state. Thanks to Matt say, I have now spoken to 1000 people about inclusion. It's been a really interesting five months I've been working with part of a solicitation team that Matt put together for a global financial services firm to examine micro aggressions and inclusion in their organization. And I've been four of those months I was just sitting way too much so for the last month I've really been making effort to get outside and walk and I've been walking up on the mountain, most every day like five, five days a week. Four or five miles a day so it's trimmed me down a little bit which is great because my clothes are getting tight that feels really good. But I've just been reflecting as this is trying to close. You know, this was not training. This was me engaging in a conversation with 1000 people about what inclusion looks like from all these perspectives and yesterday as I was walking at this image of Ken as a ball, moving along. And every time I talk. There's, there's usually when I leave one of these conversations usually at least a dozen people. So I have people that are above me and blow me and left and right behind me and each time the ball expands. It goes snaps back. And over the last five months, my ball has gotten a lot bigger it's just feels way more robust and high resolution and things that were kind of nascent in my mind or now solid in my mind and and ways of relating to people and hearing their stories and and guiding them because a lot of times people are reticent to talk and getting them to talk and so it in many ways it's up my facilitation chops quite a bit. But the thing that's really interesting to me is what I'm sensing for patterns and how I'm, I know these same patterns exist in so many organizations, you know, beatings for example, one, one managing director said meetings are the delivery system for non inclusive senior management is the most egregious example of that. And I'm like, whoa, that is so amazing. Right. And then the thing that just gave me totally goosebumps was we asked people. At the end, will you please make a commitment. Go for something really modest something you can do on a regular basis that you think will improve. And there was an African American woman who was an admin person smooth the company 23 years you said I'm not going to commit to anything I'm going to recommit based on this because I've been here a long time. And I've seen a lot of initiatives come and go. And based on this call and these people and what you're saying, I'm going to recommit to believing the company is serious about inclusion. And I was like, holy shit, that's just gave me goosebumps so I have all these swirling emotions of great gratitude and a feeling of honor and happy that it's improved my bank account and the sense of I really want to keep doing this I'm not quite sure what the next steps are. And just marveling at how there's now over 10,000 people in this company gone through this, and I've, I've been part of the 10th of that right and people really are. There's been some pushback of can't change culture it's really bad people saying no we're going to speak up, we're going to keep doing this and so I think there's a sense of all this drip irrigation that's that's softening up the heart the part soil, and that things are really going to start to grow there. So, I don't I'm just sharing this is what's been in my mind the last few days. And how that has played out and the last thing I'll say is, my wife actually said to me, you know, you've become a better person as a result of doing this work. So, I, in spite of all the challenge in the world. One conversation at a time around difficult issues with a dozen or so people with somebody who's, you know skill facilitator can make an enormous difference. So I think that's another, another piece of the puzzle, we have to, we have to find that work we have to find that ability to hang in there and talk to people about, you know, their pain and suffering and and really sensitize people to to how to be together in ways where we don't keep triggering each other. So it's just been really, it's been really, really awesome for me, and I'm incredibly grateful and a little depressed that it's coming to an end, you know, like cheese. But also, like it has to come to an end at some point and I have to figure out how to integrate all this and, you know, what can I do to reflect back the patterns that I'm seeing in ways that are useful. A couple things and I'll test you Gil. Each of these so you saw 1000 people. Each of these groups was new to you and you only got to talk to them once I think right in the process. I would and I would love to read your memoirs of this part like it or if you recorded a video summarizing whatever it is like however you wanted to externalize some of these, these things and how they've changed you I would love to understand that and read that. And then, are there parts of this that can be externalized out into the general world, like like is this a, is this a thing you would like to stand up. As an ongoing process and might that be doable and so forth is that in your head, I mean, very much. So I have over 30 pages of notes. We're not recording the calls so people can feel we are recording this call. I'm talking about those calls. Yeah, yeah, we don't record in this calls so people feel totally comfortable. So I would say to people, sometimes we get into really interesting conversations people share deeply meaningful and personal stories and we encourage that because it's much more powerful than hearing a disembodied voice, you know an actor saying this is what happened. So if you hear something that's that's useful to you feel free to you to spread the learning but leave the personal details out so people feel their confidence is respected. And I have direct quotes and, you know, observations that I've put together and I'm, I'm going to put them into some kind of format and offer that back to to Matt, because he did invite me into this and I feel like it'd be a nice gesture to do some sense making this. Yeah, I'm all about that reflective part so And I've been thinking like what can I write about this that would leave the details of the organization out that I could put together in this blog post or series of blog posts that might be useful for other people who are also looking to improve situations. That sounds awesome. Yeah, can I'm very inspired and provoked by this. That we shared. And a couple things. I'm, I'm, I'm curious why this organization decided to do this at this scale. I'm curious why 10,000 not 17,000. But I'm mostly curious about how you are the folks that you work with on this could bring this kind of process to other critical organizations. It's, it's, it's one of the more interesting and creatively stimulating things I've heard in a long time it opens up all sorts of possibility for exactly the kind of transformation we've been struggling with through this whole call. It's an example of what Jerry was talking about of the, of the, of the, what was the quote from the Navy Seals Jerry. Yeah, smooth, smooth as fast. Yeah. So, I just, you know, I'm deep bow to you encouragement if you're wondering if there's something here yes there's something here. Oh I know there's something for sure. And whether it's for you to do or for them to do for some common nation of people to do. This is really juicy. And, there was another there's another piece in the thread but that's that's enough so. Oh yeah, it's this it's that a, as, as you think about other key organizations. I mean we're my mind immediately want us to do on gas industry. We're there companies and people struggling with various degrees of sincerity and maturity about what does the transition look like. And some are going to milk it all the way down for maximum profits and maximum delay some of them are thinking very seriously about well who are we you know like we've got, we've got you know we know how to drill through rock, we know how to pump fluids we know how to you know, reprocess complex chemistry what can we do with these skills in different world. And a buddy of mine, last month did the first convening of the chief sustainability officers of all on the 50 companies in Houston. And she's trying to open up something there so I think it's a very mixed bag and very dangerous. But just to plant in your imagination. Is there a process like you have just done that can be brought into a major oil and gas industry company a group of companies and what might emerge from that produce you to her if it's if it's of interest. That'd be that'd be awesome. I did not put together the program that was designed there's a third party. There's the company that hired Matt who's doing the facilitation and then third company that did third party that did all this work, but it's very replicable. Yeah, I've just part of it is I've really begun to flourish as I made it my own because for the first 30 sessions or so I was kind of following the script and it's like you know I'm going to just sort of I'm going to riff on what's going on here and I started really engage a different level with people and that got really interesting and I know there's ways to adapt this to different things so as far as why not all 17,000 are supposed to go through it but apparently a bunch of people have just decided they didn't want to go so I'm not sure of the internal politics there. I don't know what to say about that the intent is to get everybody in the company through it. And there have been some people who've been very resistant people like I don't understand pronouns I don't understand micro aggressions if I give you a compliment that's a compliment you should take it as a compliment and those the folks are really stuck in the judge me for my intent, not my impact. And helping people to step across to the other side and say and I use the example of when we got married my wife and I took dance lessons. Now, neither of us had the intention to step on their person's foot, because we were moving in new ways, we were stepping each other's foot all the time out of my foot. And if we just said, well it's not a big deal I didn't mean it get over it. It actually lasted very long right so it's that ability to say oh I'm sorry thanks for my attention, you know, I'm really working on this hard and I can't quite get this so let's keep practicing, you know, and I will endeavor to do better. That's the attitude that's in this there's a lot of us about just adjusting attitudes of how people recognize that we do make mistakes all the time your background is different than mine and and we bump up against each other and if we can simply say, Oh, I see we have different backgrounds. Let's figure out how to move in harmony. Instead of, I'm doing a good job I'm paying you a compliment, you know, get over it. That doesn't work that just inflames things. So, anyway, I don't want to take up a huge amount of time here but thank you for great. That was really important. Thank you. John Michael Julian. Okay, thank you. Yeah, I want to start by saying, thank you or express gratitude to the entire group. This is healing and stretching. Just to hear most of this conversation. I'm going to mention just a couple of little tiny footnotes. Many of you will know some of these already but they're just kind of things to put into the notes as far as things to pick up. For examples that people raised. One is an odd one that just came to me hearing from Ken and that's 3M Corporation. Now, my work with them was a very long time ago. So, you know, that can happen in 20 plus years. But they used to, they were, when I work with them, they were better, better than an awful lot of people for saying, Oh, we got this process. What's let's switch it, you know, let's use it some other way. And of course, you know, there's all these examples of kid quoted post it notes. You know, they had a glue and it was a bad glue. You know, it was ineffective move within. They transformed it into post it notes. And so they have deep in their culture. At least they used to have deep in their culture. This idea of. Take the thing you know how to do and disconnect it from possibly its point of origin, which might have consequences that you don't want for even the business or the culture. It's just a footnote to tap another similar footnote. A lot of you know about David Snowden and his systems approach. And he would say, I believe if you're in chaos, which arguably parts of us are going in and out of chaos all the time, he doesn't think chaos lasts very long. It's just people from chaos into complexity, one the other phases, but that while you're in chaos, the only thing it's reasonable to do our experiments, small interventions, and you disconnect from the idea that Oh, how are we going to generalize this? How are we going to get the beach? You just say, let's try this thing and let's be careful to notice how it works or doesn't work. And then later on, the issue of how do you generalize it will emerge when you're not in the chaotic state. So kind of common sense and a third example that I have brought up here, but not many people know about it. And I don't want to. It's an historical example. It's the major restoration in Japan. I know a little about it. I'd like to check this out with somebody who's Japanese and knows Japanese history. But my understanding is that they did something, you know, they had a bunch of samurai, they had a bunch of minor nobles who were in an economic system and a status system, and a hierarchy that was going to hold some hand back. They would not be able to resist the West if they kept doing things that they were doing. So they were going to have to get them to shift. And the way they got them to shift was they bought them out with bonds during a period of semi-intended inflation. And what the people who received those bonds in exchange for land, in exchange for certain other things were then motivated to do was to start companies and to invest in industrialization. Because that's what the bonds were good for. You couldn't go back and do the feudalism thing anymore. That was clear to them that that was ended. If we run that forward, I was trying to think of, you know, would that work in the United States now? I don't know. What I was trying to think of was a kind of a moral bitcoin. There was an international digital currency that people trusted. The way that they don't trust either their governments nor actual bitcoin. You could pay people in something like that. And then they would resist less as you took away from them what's going to have to be taken away from the coal industry and the fossil fuel industry. And they would have value and they would have an implicit or expensive time limit in terms of you need to convert this value into something green. Go for it. John, thank you. Kind of sadly, maybe ironically, kind of a bitter part of American history, but before the 14th Amendment and 13th Amendment and proclamation freeing slavery. There were plans to buy out the slaves, there were plans to pay plantation owners for their slaves. And also, you know, before that era, the way you knew who the wealthiest person was in America was the person who owned the most humans. It was a measure of wealth. Right. And so, and so many deep things had to change, and some of which are still stuck, you know, back in the reptilian brain of America, unfortunately, plaguing us still to this day but but this this kind of that that size of changes is really hard to steer. So I don't know very much about the bond story from the Meiji restoration but I'm like eager to find some good materials on that. Thank you for. Thank you for that a lot. We have a few more people and 15 more minutes. Michael Julian Eric Sam. To answer a question that Ingrid asked me and direct messaging yes I realized that there are two of me up here, but switch devices, and I didn't want to lose the chat, which by logging into a new device I would. But then I've also realized that on a phone, you don't have those three dots to save the chat file somewhere. So I always share out the chat afterwards so it'll be, it'll be on matter most and the file will be there. Cool. Yeah, you can leave your alter ego your, your clone, your leap autonomous lethal clone can can leave the room. Okay, well, I'll get that at some point. No worries. So, boy, so much, so much stuff here to think about and it seems very interconnected in almost a circular way. I think about like, Doug's Doug's starting place of the top down, you know, the skeptical and the subsequent receptacles that would be necessary. And I don't, I can't imagine a top down solution that has any has any hope of working. And, you know, it sends me going to, you know, maybe what we really need is the solar flare that, you know, takes out completely our ability to connect so that we're, you know, forced down to the local level. But that doesn't seem good either. We do have to have ways to ways to connect. But that the gap between the local and the global and how we, we knew through that is really stymied by nations. And it's, it brought me back to the point when when factor was first trying to make its way as like a VC funded SAS organizational tool that created a way for knowledge to be shared in an organization that wasn't hierarchical and for good ideas to bubble up across silos and and gain reputational value that way. We sort of need that on a global scale that that, you know, local efforts to be connected not, I mean, you know, and I know this is this preaching to choir and kind of like basic OGM tenants but the ability for different local efforts to gain reputational steam and and, you know, feather outward to other local efforts without having to move up through a hierarchy as they would to, you know, like, I'm going to get a bunch of people to write to our congressman to try and put forth a bill that the Congress person is going to then have to get, you know, and it's never going to happen and then even if you get your nation on board your nation is going to go with its own self interest to, you know, pop and it doesn't happen. It's not going to happen, you know, up through the hierarchy and then down from the hierarchy. So, to, to gills point about how do we really want to do things like this. Make a difference. It's hard to the profit motive and scarcity and and you know success that's based on your sales skills and ability to be quasi messy messianic and get some movement behind you, but rather to create structures for idea meritocracy. To bubble up and and spread out. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's in and, and, you know, to to Ken's what Ken was saying, it's that that engaged conversation at the local level needs to be able to spread by a network, not by a hierarchical national structure and the the the reputational piece, the moral Bitcoin is is kind of key in this. So yeah, and back to number one on my list, you know, it's just, it's all great stuff and it, it, you know, you can see the shape of what needs to be but not the way to get it to happen. So yeah, that's where I am today. Awesome. Yeah, thank you, Michael. Whatever thoughts it provokes and others. Let's go Julian Eric Sam. It's been a couple weeks since I've been here in this group is so innovating. It feels like a long time that I've been doing lots of conferences since the last meeting. First the hackers conference and then the Web 3D conference in Pisa, Italy, and the augmented World Expo in Santa Clara. And then I spent this week in Phoenix, both to snoop on my son but also for meetings with the Arizona State University Innovation Center. So I've been pretty much running around. And I'm looking forward to the next three months because there are no conferences and no travel and I can sit down, and I can really get Neo4j and unity to earn what I'm paying for them. Before anybody gets jealous I should mention that the Web 3D conference was hosted in Pisa, Italy, I did it from my living room in Palo Alto. Damn it. It was hosted on European time so my presentation was in the middle of the night, and the kitten was so excited to have me up during his hours that he, he brought in a mouse and was chasing it around during my presentation. And, and of course I couldn't mute myself and crashing and squeaking going on, but that's awesome. He's a very cute kitten so of course, forgive him. Love that. Reality intruding. Thanks Julian. Eric and Sam. Yeah, hi. I have a little show and tell and we can talk a little about it afterwards. Awesome. I'm going to share this one. So away. Okay. So what you're seeing is something that was built by Stefan Kretzer from Germany. And I had some input in like this version of it. So what we're looking at is a way of navigating through data and think of it like a mini Jerry's brain where you're filtering out a lot of stuff. So here, if I go from a book to an author. I'm showing other dimensions that are available. So this book also has a copyright year. And then if I want to flip the panels, I see that year I can navigate to other years. So let's go to some and you can see the books published in that year. And I just want to go to one of them. Yeah, 96. So say you pick a book. You could see all the authors of that book. And then you pick an author. Who has two books. So just thinking about this. Does this filtered navigation help. I'm going to stop. So, like you saw the previous demo where you'd see a lot of things flying around. But does the focus help you in knowing that there are other dimensions that you could set up. So that's my question. And is this related to the zippered lists that you're working with? Okay. So this is, this is similarly, you could, you could rotate dimensions through as you go. Okay. Right. I don't know that question. I didn't quite understand the nature of the question, Eric. Okay. So this type of visualization where you don't see all the connections, but just the ones that the dimensions that are available for the cell that you're looking at. So you're looking at computer lib, and you see on the right, Ted Nelson, but if you flip to Ted Nelson, you'll see all the connections from Ted Nelson. If you go to the year, you see all the books in that year. So it's a connecting your data in multiple dimensions, but navigating in a filtered way. And is this as a reading tool or as a creation slash writing tool. It could be both. I'm thinking on the decentralized web, if people create these structure, the data structures of their data, and you have a navigation. So you can have multiple navigation tools on the same data. This is like a graph. So, and that demo was using graph ML. So I'm just thinking long term, you know, does this make sense based on what I talked about two weeks ago. I'm just trying to think forward. So not to rail this discussion. Yeah, right. Basically, I believe that knowledge is created one link at a time. Yeah. So you start wherever and you just do billions of them. That's exactly how you get an elephant. Yeah, so you create your knowledge hyper core, whatever I create my hyper core and we could share our hyper cores and navigate through each other's knowledge graphs and then have webs of trust with other people. Yes. Yeah, cool. So Eric, my question is, this feels a lot like how Rome and other backlink rich apps work. How is it different from those because Rome doesn't have dimensionality where you're switching an explicit dimension and I think that the data isn't tagged up as dimensions. So we don't know that years or years in Rome, they're just texts that happens to be a year. Right. But but how is this different from the Rome kind of view where you just see all the references in as you as you sort of pivot through the space. I haven't looked at Rome, but I think what I'm trying to do is take Ted Nelson's ideas forward of thinking in multi dimensions organizing your data multi dimensionally and see where that takes you. If it's, and if it could be done decentralized. And so I'm asking that partly because there's an open source room project called the Athens project. And I'm going to be on a panel December 1. And I think the host of the panel is the start the founder of the Athens project and stuff like that. And it could be that extensions to Athens, give you some of this functionality that you're coming at from the Ted Nelson, and that might that might be a very interesting confluence. And also, Athens is working more intensively on multi user spaces than Rome is Rome seems to keep promising, hey, we're going to do multi user and you're going to be able to build that are that are shared, when in fact Athens is I think on a death march to try to get there. More quickly, I don't know how much of that they've actually implemented but they seem to be prioritizing that a lot. Yeah, be interested in exploring that in terms of multi writer that is a new feature in decentralized that protocol so people can edit the same graph. So, yeah, I'm just thinking how to take this forward. Cool. I'm going to post something in the chat. It's called alternative to net. And basically, there are several hundred note taking programs, like 400 ish. And, you know, there's open source room there called, I don't know, gloam or who knows what but you and I should talk here. Yeah, the idea is, like, if there was a standard data structure for people exchanging interoperable data over the web, and then you put on top of it whatever viewer you like. Yeah, I'm just seeing where this can go what should be done, like Ted Nelson says I just need to design it myself and build it for myself and everybody else will figure out that I was right later. That's completely wrong. Yeah, I know. Ted knows is wrong. Take on his lecture everything you know is wrong. Right. Anyone else comments on what Eric just showed. Sam, and I was going to invite you in to check in as well. Hey, thanks. Let me at least just start by riffing on what Eric just showed. The problem with dimensions as far as I can see is you have to name them ahead of time. The problem that I see is if you have to think that much about the mentions that almost in a sense constricts how you can navigate. And Eric you and I may have talked about this before because you and I have talked about angle bar related issues. So I want to bring your attention to something you may already know this called data log, which is based on triples and then actually they're based on five people's but the other two values are metadata and triples allowing you to basically have a very flexible data model. And one implementation of it is rebel or EBL you might want to look into that one. The other reason Jerry I think this is interesting is because I believe although I can't prove yet I have to go to GitHub that the Athens people are built on closure. It's not right that at least you know one of the other room clones is based on closure. And the cool thing about that is closure very natively adapts on top of data log. So I think they're in a position to really win versus other implementations so I'm very hopeful that they'll be able to do that. Introduction. My, my other meta comment is, I'm really apologize because I'm not yet as many of you are yet to completely organize your week, according to how you like to spend it. I still work for a living. And so weekdays are kind of tough for me. As I said, I may end up saying too much now because I feel like I want to get all this in in the one appearance that I make on a very infrequent basis. But I don't know yet, and I apologize in advance again is I don't know whether this is a dialogue or a conversation, or a brainstorming or brain dumping. I'm doing, you know, kind of one by one it feels more like a brain dumping than a brainstorming or a conversation. And I really like some follow up with each of you or small groups or even this entire group to actually go through that in some more detail. And I do mean, there are differences between each of those interaction types. What it is these days is in Stacey knows this, I spent a lot of time in something called GCC the global challenges, collaboration and conversation space on Saturdays, 8 to 10 Pacific time in case any of you are interested. In over the last four years and you may gasp why four years, we have come to the realization that I have come to the realization that much of what ails us is that truth has come under fire. And that Peter taught a very precarious position that truth holds has allowed a movement towards fascism a movement towards propaganda a movement towards alternative facts, a movement towards distrust of media movement towards distrust of science. And I think that's been done rather successfully. So I think one of the things that we must, in my opinion, do no matter what initiative you believe in is to restore some appreciation for truth. And then in that way also restore an appreciation for critical thinking for reasoning for science for the scientific process for peer review and to counter the multiple truths crowd by really understanding what the scientific method really represents. You know, this whole notion of my truth, their truth, subjective truth, the values, this whole notion of truth, and it's very dangerous. And I really think that that, in a sense, light workers, and I'll be very pokey here are one part of the problem. If there's a notion that, you know, there's my truth and your truth and they're equally valid. That is a slippery slope towards really developing the real notion of truth. So in four years of conversation, I think that's one of the insights I've really derived from GCC. And so one of the things that I'm really on campaign for right now is to restore a respect for truth, a respect for reasoning, a respect for thinking, a respect for real dialogue, a respect for evidence, and people who have other thoughts. I really lean into those because I am not saying there is only one truth. I'm saying, if there is truth to be discussed, you should be willing to explore it be questioned on it. If you're not willing to be questioned on it, then that's where I will actually then lean out. Okay. And so, I think that where the, the right, we can characterize as right, and the quote unquote conservative it already fascist segment of society has been gerrymandering the vote. I would like to make invalid, I would like to devalidate sloppy thinking. And I really want to devalidate thinking that is not well thought out that is not clear to explain that is not simple to understand and explain to a five year old, no matter how complex the topic. There are other poking words and conversations like this but I don't get a chance to show up here very often, but in a sense, you know, I do want to make sure that you know my position is at least up here for people you know, shoot at, and I really invite engagement on this. Okay. So, I'm open to one of ones I'm open small groups I'm open to sharing thoughts about Engelbart and Ted Nelson. They're quite a big supporter of Doug's, they're very good friends. And we can have lots talk about their mark I saw you shaking your head so hopefully that's an invitation to a conversation. Okay. Anyway, I've said too much I know your past time but just want to make the most out of my few minutes here on occasion. Once I'm a good friend of Jack Park Jack Park has tried to get me down to Palo Alto decades ago to basically attend your in person things and I will try to connect with you. I would just try to say that there are many different kinds of culture and cultural thinking. It was different from art which is different from mythology which is different from religion was different from politics which is different for economics, and there are different measures of validation to lead to the truth in each of our ways of expressing the human spirit. All of these systems devices are going off. And Sam, I just want to know when we have your attention again. Okay, do you need to take that. No, I just pushed it away. Okay, good. I'm just curious what gerrymandering thought. What do you mean by that. What do you mean by gerrymandering thought. In other words, Republicans are gerrymandering electric districts so that they actually guarantee a majority in almost every district right. And so they actually push aside they basically reduce the power of certain segments of society to actually represent themselves via a vote. So what I would like to do in gerrymandering thought and gerrymandering thinking is to devalue and disinvalidate certain ways of thinking and certain ways of speaking and certain ways of propagandizing. And I want to make sure that there are certain standards to be held when someone was actually making a claim. And if those standards are not met, then those claims should be in a sense questioned. They're being tossed, but I mean really, really questioned. And if people are not willing to be questioned on it, that exposes the weakness of that position. So there ought to be a, an anti you need to meet in order to have a voice in society. And that needs to be a sense making anti. I know Mark, let's have conversations about this. I actually in the last election cycle, invited via Facebook and other mechanisms in open conversation, leaning in very open with anybody who supported Trump, so that I can actually understand the position. I got four takers. They're all very disappointing conversations and I can actually talk about every single one of those. You've just opened a giant and beautiful can of worms, if that's even a thing to say. Stacy, then Michael and then probably we will wrap the call but I kind of want to go back into this topic more. So I agree with everything Sam said and I've actually said this before but I really want to caution against throwing things against light workers. Okay, that's like a very big label and what happens is, you wind up putting a lot of people that have a lot of indigenous knowledge. You put them off, you, you put us all in a group, and I think we need to be careful of labeling people. Otherwise I agree with everything you said as far as the standards that should be set. Michael. I really, you know, hear what Sam is saying and like the, the, the reputational coming back to the moral Bitcoin, the reputational piece of being able to say, here's my truth, you know, and here's my truth and one of them is backed up by, you know, some of the alumnus scientific data and one of them is just, you know, what I want to be true and what my tribe wants to be true and damn the facts, and you don't want to see them as equivalent. But to glance at each fact and see, you know, the reputational chits, which might be, you know, here, here is something that doesn't have the science behind it yet but has, say, to speak to Stacy's point, you know, a lot of indigenous that shows up across different cultures that says maybe there's something here so maybe we should do more scientific analysis of it, or, you know, in the face of climate, etc. But, but, you know, having that medium having that currency of some kind for, for, you know, basically record the fact that people who are knowledgeable about this subject in this discipline, link to this fact, whereas this alternative fact doesn't have that much of saying. And that mechanism, which I think is something that can happen in a little bit in what Eric was was playing with. I just think that's really powerful that's something that that I know I'm working on a lot. And by the way, those foundations of Doug Engelbart's thinking. So I love this conversation and want to keep going and kind of need to wrap this call, but I want to leave us with maybe a downer note just for fun. I had a light bulb go on in my head, not, not that long ago, that in religion, acts of faith, like Jesus was born of virgin birth, and was resurrected after three days named the catechism and this came to me because a relative pointed to a bishop who's writing she likes so I went to his website and the first essay was hey look at the Nicene Creed the Nicene Creed is a great place to start. And I look at the Nicene Creed and it's basically a recitation of the acts of faith of the Catholic religion, all of which are impossible through science or fact, all of them, they're totally like counterfactual. And the note in my head is your induction into and remaining membership in this gigantic community called Christianity in the in the more orthodox parts of it depends on your agreeing to these non scientific counterfactuals and accepting them as foundational truths above any other truth. And that's just part of membership. And now we have a whole bunch of other membership societies where there's a different set of fact that aren't the Nicene Creed that are other sorts of things that are foundational to membership. And for me Sam, trying to reify and honor and respect science and facts doesn't attack that problem at all. And we need to find a way to melt to melt the middle so that we can enter a conversation that is replicable experimentable where we can test results and move forward with something and maybe we call that science in the corner. I don't know. And this is again a huge conversation, but I'm, I'm my eyes have been widely opened to the idea that there's a bunch of people for whom science and facts are merely another faith structure that is competing with their face structure and doesn't really work. Which is incorrect. Agreed. Agreed. And so with that, let's let's wrap this call, but it's Sam, thank you for joining us. This has been fantastic. Thanks for letting me. Oh, love to have you here. Thanks everybody. Call. Thanks. See you sooner. Next Thursday's Thanksgiving. We'll still be doing a call. I think Jerry left. He had to go. We don't need him to do it. We don't. We don't. It's in this room. I guess we're all in America. See you then, if I see you then. Yeah. Sounds good. Take care everybody. Good to see you. Sam good to. I'm glad you're in a show today. Good to listen to you. Thanks everybody. We need to talk to. I would love to I'm ready. Bye bye. Bye.