 there will be an emphasis on the relationship being the major agent for cure, not the particular modality or not drive instinct or not XXX, but the relationship. So in 2022, where we are now, I think that's a really important point. So whatever modalities we talk about, gestalt, existential psychotherapy, person-centered counseling, transaction analysis, they all would say, I believe that the relationship is far more important than the actual theoretical model. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast, with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to episode 79 of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with the wonderful Mr. Bob Cook and myself, Jackie Jones. And in this episode, we're gonna be discussing therapy past, present and the future. Yes, good title. Especially as I'm 72. So I don't know, I mean, I'm a good person to talk about psychotherapy past, present and my ideas about the future in terms of the psychotherapy world because the past, well, I've been around, when did I, 84 was my first introduction to the counseling certificate. Wow. 85, I started psychotherapy training. 86, I became a psychotherapist. 88, I became a group psychotherapist. 89, I became a clinical transactionalist. 92, I became a supervising transactionalist, European. 93, I started my own institute and we could go up and up. So I think I could- Is the institute's anniversary next year then? In 88, so what's next year? No, I thought you said in 93 you started the institute. Oh, no, sorry, 93, I started the first ever training. Wow. 88 was when I started the institute and 93, I started the first ever psychotherapy training and transactionalism. We've done one ever since, every October. And I was just thinking about where we go now. It's, you know, it was four years running and I was thinking about, I don't know, you know, if I'm, well, I'm gonna go. If I'm gonna continue running them. Because if I ever sort of let the institute go, which has been around a long time now, it's got a four year spiral on it. Yeah. If I sort of, you know, slow down or tend to retire then, as I say, I'm 72, so I'll be 76. So I'll be 76 and do it. Anyway, for another day. And it was a good podcast about, you know, how the therapist retire. Yeah, it is, yeah, literally because we have a duty of care. Yeah, and especially how, you know, directors, founders of psychotherapy training institutes retire when they've got 60 or 70 students. Things like that. That'd be a good podcast, really good podcast. It would, because you're very experienced in it. But you're also very experienced in past therapy, the present therapy. And I'm sure you've got ideas about future therapy. You know, it's all gonna pan out. Yeah, so we start off with, well, compare the three. If you start off past psychotherapy, I mean, I don't know when you started the world of psychotherapy. I know when you started training in my head, but I don't know when you started, actually perhaps going into therapy the first time and then started training. What sort of date was that? I started at the Institute in 2012 and I dipped my toe into person-centred probably about 18 years ago. I did a short one-year course on person-centred. So 18 years ago takes us to 2004. Yeah, 2004 is where you can start talking from, can't you? Yeah. And then of course you can talk about 2008. And of course you can talk about where you are in 2022. Yeah, yeah. I'll go back. So I started with my own psychotherapist in 1984. So how many years ago is that? Nearly 40. What is it? 38? 38 years ago. So if I look at where psychotherapy was 38 years ago, because 85 I went on the first counselling course, 86 I started a training. So I can talk about around those days and perhaps beyond as well because I can talk about psychotherapy. So if we go right back, right, right, right back, psychoanalysis really was the first, you know, as beginnings if you like with looking at mental health issues. I mean, if we go back before psychoanalysis, I suppose we're into religious healing. Yeah. So we can go all the way back. And then Freud came along and his cohort of people who started to look at the difference between the mind and the brain. And also he was very interested in dream analysis. But he's really known as the godfather I think of if you like psychotherapy, psychoanalysis in those early days. And that would be right back to sort of his first book I think was Hysteria in 1888. So we're going back quite a while to psychoanalysis. So if we sort of start there and work our way up. So what I can happily talk about those beginnings but I like to include you, what do you know about psychoanalysis in those early beginnings of looking at understanding the mind and psychological emotions? Do you know anything yourself? Only the stereotypical stuff, where do you know what I mean? You're laid on a couch and you were, you know, analyzed. And, you know, electric shock treatments and lobotomies and all random things like that that you see in the films. But that's pretty much all I know about. So if we go back to the sort of 1887, 1898, 1840, started to discover his ideas on the mind and the bridge between mind and emotions and how emotions can be held in the body and specifically played out symbolically in dreams. That was the first time really where people were encouraged especially by those early psychoanalysts to actually go to psychoanalysts to look at their mental health problems, if you like. Up till then, it was very much, I said, you had religious healing before that but there was not much at looking at, you know, mental health issues, emotions and the body at all. And of course, you write back into the era of mental health sort of institutions where people were just left in asylums, if you like. And, you know... It was mainly women who were associated with hysteria, weren't they? Yeah, yeah. And hysteria was sort of a blanket term for things they didn't understand really. And you write in a way, you correct, a lot of women were, or when there was emotional escalation or there was early hysterics, they were largely thought, largely in the world of women. And asylums were really the only treatment, if you like. They were sent to and they could be locked up in there for a very very long time. Definitely, a lot of women, yeah. And there's many very gruesome documentaries about that. But people who had money and wanted to look at, you know, some of the mental health treatments started to turn or might start to turn themselves to the early psychoanalysts, especially Freud and Young and Balbo and people like that, where you're correct again, the major treatment was free association, basically lying on a couch. Yeah. Free association means simply means just talking about whatever comes in your mind. Yeah. And the method of those earliest, we'll say earlier this psychotherapy, but it's very different from that term we know now. The analysts, because they're called analysts, patients are called patients rather than clients, the analysts would interpret, if you like, those free associative verbal discourse. And they were trained perhaps to give two or three interpretations an hour, because the treatment was an hour. Yeah. And it was through the analysis of those interpretations that led to, you know, the patient having more awareness or understanding of themselves, which theoretically would lead to cure. So cure really for the early psychoanalyst was awareness. I like the way that you keep using the word interpretation, I think that's quite important, because you touched on or you said something about, you know, dream therapy or things like that. That's open to interpretation. Yeah, it's all interpretation. Yeah. I mean, before you started to write quite a lot of books, Young did, Bower did, and quite a lot of those early existential, no, let's call them psychoanalysts, those early psychoanalysis. And of course Freud really compared the mental, you know, how can I explain it, the mind to symbolically like a, you know, like an engine or the mental apparatus was seen as driven by drives and early instincts and like the libido and, you know, these early drives, that's what I'm saying, you can put it over to a sort of engine if you like, because the organism is driven by drives. And so the analysis of these drives, the death, instinct, libido, et cetera, et cetera. And that was the sort of early thinking about drive theory led to a lot of the psychological analysis, not anything to do with, yeah, the study of relationships or study of emotions or emotional literacy, I think was sort of built around the idea of drive theory. And if we can understand drive theory, we then can understand what drives the organism to continually repeat these patterns or dysfunction. And it wasn't until much, much later, when the term psychotherapy came around, when we looked at, you know, a therapy of the psyche and behavior and emotions and spirituality and cognition, it was very much a study of drive theory. That was the very early thoughts about looking at the mind and what drives the personality, if you like, or what drives the mental dysfunction. My, like, the way that I think about it as well, there was a lot of things, I know you said about the drives and everything, but there was a lot of things based around sex or, you know, like the Oedipus syndrome or something or other where little boys are supposed to fall in love with the moment, you know, all that sort of, there was a lot of angle towards that side of it. Was there? Oh, no. Yes, we are just sexual, you know, sexual drives again, but yes, you're correct. I mean, you know, that's why some people see the, this early, early thinking, especially around Freud again, which is what we'd accuse him being obsessed with, seeing drive theory, perhaps, to a sexual terrain, the way you've explained it. Yeah, yeah. Like I said, I don't know much about it, but that's the one thing that stuck in my head, there seemed to be a lot of things around that. Yeah, I mean, I don't really follow drive theory much as I sound much more into looking at personality models in a different way and driven by relationship and attachment theory rather than instinctual drives. But one thing I would take from Freud, by the way, and I have an interesting discussion with you, is he's following from Oedipus, really, your ideas of Oedipus and the electro complex. He did say that symbolically, you know, we marry off father when we marry our mothers. That's interesting. It is, it is, because they say, you know, if you wanna know what your wife's gonna be like, look at the mum in 30 years and there you go. So I suppose, I don't know whether there's a grain of truth in that or that's where it comes from, but yeah. A script theory from transaction analysis. Yeah. It's all important. Yeah. And if you look back for the TA people listening, Claude Stein, who was a prodigal son of Eric Byrne, the creator of transaction analysis, he formed what was called the script matrix and talked about those very important primal influences from the mother and father. You know, you remember the diagram? Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of early TA thinking is about script and the influence of the parents. So where is that, then? If we move on to, you know, the present, are you looking at like 1960s-ish when, because I've seen some clips on YouTube where they're all sat smoking in a room, just, you know, discussing things with Eric Byrne. No, I haven't got to the present at all. I'm moving up to the birth of transaction analysis in the late 50s, early 60s, which I still call the past. Right, yeah. Because TA therapy, in its origin, is completely different in many, many ways from the way that TA is practiced today and even thought about. I mean, if we're going to look at TA past, which is really late 50s, beginning of the 60s, into the early 70s, certainly transaction analysis was a different animal. I mean, the basic personality model of parent-adult child survived, even though there's a lot of different expansions of that model. The basic model of PAC is survived today and some of the basic theories around strokes, transactions, games, rackets, what you'll get in a 101 still forms the lexicon of the theory today. But you see, over time, the style, the methods, the application of TA has changed dramatically. Yeah. So probably if you, you know, I've come from Manchester, but if we've got all the TA therapies from Manchester around, I would guarantee you that a high, high, high percentage, maybe into the 90s, at least, would think of using transaction analysis relationally in some way. Yeah. Although all stroke and their work would include going into the child eager state. In fact, I would almost say 100% out of 100% transaction would talk about doing some actionistic work with the child eager state. So in the early days, in the late 50s, 60s, 70s, was that kind of like a bridge between the psychoanalyzing and what we see today. There was a bit of both in that somehow. Yeah, well, I started off with psychoanalysis. Now, psychoanalysis, Freud did have a theory of the personality, same as TA's got a theory of the personality of the parent adult child. And Freud had a theory of the personality in the beginning of the, you know, 1880, 1890, if you like, which was almost like a tripartite model of the id, ego, a super ego. And if you split the unconscious into three parts, the person is coming from three parts of the unconscious, which is the id, which is this parental side, if you want to look at that way from TA, you know, the ego, which is adult from TA, and then you've got to see, sorry, it is child and TA terms, super ego is parent, that's right. And, you know, the ego is adult. So you could borrow it across in terms of those of the personality. But no, psychoanalysis, I think, it was around for a long time, and it still is practiced, by the way. But what came along really was the term psychotherapy and different models of looking at how the personality was formed, and the idea of moving away to thinking about attachment theory, and thinking about cure in a different way than the psychoanalyst thought of cure. So as a psychoanalyst, the early psychoanalyst, and, you know, maybe even today, thought of cure in terms of awareness, that as the person became more aware, that led to cure. But psychotherapists, of course, went a step further, which is part of psychotherapy, or analysis of the therapy, so that's what it's called psychotherapy, yeah. No, it might lead to awareness, but you need to go a step further to look at what needs to be integrated to be, or to be actioned. So, you know, for example, if you know you can smoke as much as you like, and in fact, there's, you know, if you pick up most cigarette packages, you'll see at the front of it, and I don't smoke, but I think they say on the front of it, this is a danger to your health, or cigarettes kill. Yeah. Right? Many people become aware of that. But then don't start smoking. Yeah. Yeah, and that's what's, that's sort of it, isn't it? You can be aware of many things and don't change. Yeah. The psychotherapy said, well, let's take a step, this step further, and look at how a person can integrate a lot of their awareness and change their behaviors, and in turn change their personality, and therefore cure is at that end. Yeah. Rather than just... Bring it to our attention. Yeah. Yeah. So psychotherapy was born more as a bridge, if you like. You know, whether it was Gestalt psychotherapy, whether it was existential psychotherapy, whether it was any of the humanist psychotherapies, or the client-centred psychotherapy of Carl Rogers, which eventually came called as client-centred counselling, which started, if it's world, it started its beginnings. Of course, it's client-centred psychotherapy. Yeah. It changed its name to counselling, but that's another whole podcast. And they wanted to look at a change in a different way past the world of awareness, and also had different theories of the personality than the drive theory of the early analysts. They would take in consideration things like attachment theory, where does relationship play in all this lot? Yeah. So I would say psychotherapy was the next sort of bridge, if you like. Yeah. Transaction analysis was one of these humanistic psychotherapy models. So there might be somebody around today that is working on psychotherapy of the future, because the different schools of TA, everybody's got their own slant on it. TA is an overarching umbrella, but within that there's different schools of TA. Yeah. If we stayed into TA, if we stay in looking at the evolution of practitioners who we have drive theory, there are psychoanalysts still who follow drive theory, by the way. Yeah. We have myriad of psychotherapists and a myriad of way of looking at how personalities develop and personality models. As I said, I just mentioned a few of them, and gastrocycotherapy to existential psychotherapy. And they're all still going, but within gastrocycotherapy or within existential psychotherapy or within transaction analysis, there's many styles, evolutions and ways of looking at things. Yeah. So in my institute, there's a gastrocycotherapy, for example, there's a body psychotherapist. Many of my colleagues are existential psychotherapists. So within the particular school, if you will use that, or the approach is many styles. Yeah. No, we picked on transaction analysis because both of us are trained in that. But out of transaction analysis, there's another model that appeared called integrative psychotherapy. It does have ego status as heart, script as a heart, but it has integration as the cure. Yeah. So out of different styles, if you're models, come other models. So I think Wendy Dryden's book one of his books, one I'm thinking of, I can't remember the title in 2006 or something came up with something like there was 673 models of psychotherapy. Wow. That's a lot. TA is a major one, of course. Yeah. So, you know, we have psych analysis, we have psychotherapy, we have the evolution of psychotherapy into lots of different models and different approaches. And many of those approaches and models have changed over time to 2022. But I think one, I would say that if we look at psychotherapy per se, transaction analysis is in that, for example, especially in the humanistic tradition. They do have one over, many overarching concepts, but one of them, of course, is the past effects of present. Yeah. Which is the basis of transaction analysis that I was trained in, yeah. Yeah. So you've had an evolution away from drive therapy, even though drive, even though the psychoanalysts believe very much a study of the first three years was important in terms of helping the patient about more awareness through the interpretation of the analyst. Yeah. I mean, so they really did believe the past effect of the present, but their methods was very different. So a lot of the methods are the many of the psychotherapists today. But we've evolved into lots of different psychotherapeutic models, which include other theories, as I said, like attachment theory, like relational theory, and we put in body theories to that. We look at spirituality to that. And they're all methods of helping the person, helping the client, patient, or other terminology we're going to use. We've took cure. So where do you see the future in it then, Bob? What do you see? Where we are today. We had a term that came through, generally, in 1992, I think. And I don't know which book we could credit to this term. I think maybe, you know, Steven Mitchell, one of the most famous psychoanalysts, perhaps might take ownership of this term, but I don't think one particular book can take ownership of this term. And the term is called the relational turn. So until the early 90s, that term didn't exist, but in the early 90s, I don't know which book we could credit it to, but it's the idea that it's the relationship between the client and the therapist. We've moved away from the term patient now to client. It's the relationship between the therapist and client, which is the most important and central pivotal process towards cure than any theoretical model. So it's not transactionalised. It's not bestowed though. It's not client-centered counseling. We can list them all. It isn't that theoretical models has the one answer to cure. In fact, it is the importance of the relationship between the therapist and client that becomes the major curative factor. And while I'm talking to you, I think in the major book that came out, I think that probably did lead to this term, was the book by North Cross, I think in 1992, where they looked at a lot of the different modalities and I think we searched it, but I don't know how many people, but came up or showed that the relationship was the major factor between the therapist and the patient, client-centered counseling, which was effective in terms of cure. So it's from that time that in fact, if you went in most of the beauty book shops now, whatever style of book that you picked up, bestowed TA or whatever it is, there will be an emphasis on the relationship being the major agent for cure, not the particular modality or not drive instinct or not XXX, but the relationship. So in 2022, where we are now, I think that's a really important point. Whatever modalities we talk about, gestalt, existential psychotherapy, person-centered counseling, transaction analysis, they all would say, I believe that the relationship is far more important than the actual theoretical model. Yeah. Which I tend to agree with. The relationship can make or break the therapy process. If you trained in 2004 and 2012, then that's the influence that would have been coming through the training institutes. Anyway, though you might have been trained in TA or person-centered or whatever it is, but a very important message and training that therapist or counselor needs to pay a very strong emphasis on what's happening between the therapist and the client as a way to understand cure. So we have an important, we have a central importance on such concepts as transference, counter-transference, intersubjectivity, what's happening between the two of you as an agent for understanding and analyzing cure. Yeah. So where are we moving to then, Bob? What's the situation? We just stay here at moments. And let's go to your practice a moment. And you've worked for many years as a therapist now. So in what I'm saying is 2022, there's a huge emphasis of relationship and I would suspect that in your years as a therapist you do think about the relationship as self as client as a way of analyzing the way forward. Yeah. Yeah, how we interact and how that relationship can change you know, session to session moment to moment even. Yeah. So in your way of thinking and also I'll be interested in this Jack and I think we've talked about what I'm going to say in Pibius podcast but I think it's important to reiterate again one of the and you'll have been trained this way because of the central pivotalness on relationships as a creative factor is how much you share of yourself in the relationship becomes I'm sure you've thought about that. Yeah. It's one of the reasons why I just dip to towing person centered counseling and didn't kind of pursue it because you know, we were kind of told to leave ourselves outside the therapy room. At all costs. Yeah. Pretty much. And I get that it's not about us in the therapy room but to me it didn't fit well that I couldn't bring myself fully into the room with the client. And of course the psychoanalyst that I was talking about also preached that what you've just said. Yeah. Keep yourself outside the field. Because I know the client you know a lot of the habitual behavior and the past and everything is out of their awareness but I don't see myself as an expert in that room. They're the they are the expert on themselves in that room and if it's out of their awareness a lot of the store. So the idea of being the one in charge of the session and directing the client never really sat well with me. So it's probably true to say then is it is that you might call yourself a relational psychopaths in the sense that you think about the relationship as an agent for cure. Yeah. Yeah. We use it. Yeah. And we unearth things mutually. You know to me I've said to clients before now that we dump everything in the middle of the floor and you know metaphorically we see through it and you know work together in a co-created way. Yeah. Yeah. So that is the opposite diametric opposite from before 1950s. Yeah. In other words if you went to a bookshop in the 1950s before the 1950s the majority of the books would be all about how you keep yourself out of relationship. If you go to bookshops now in 2022 it will all be about how you bring yourself into it. Yeah. So there's a dramatic change in understanding or thinking about you know how cure is affected. Yeah. Now if we go to the future now this is where we can both just hypothesize. Yeah. I'll start it off then. I think that there will be a great well we're starting to see it anyway so we are moving a lot towards online therapy Zoom. Yeah. Zoom you know in the Covid years Zoom was used a lot online therapy and I wouldn't like I've not done the research on it but I would imagine a dramatic increase because we couldn't meet up. Yeah. So people took all their clients online and you know as we're coming out of the pandemic I've seen I have seen of course a reduction back to face to face and quite a big I mean a lot of the clients that I come into my you know when I do the assessments all one face to face by the way Yeah. But you've also seen reported a lot of therapists do do a mixture of Zoom therapy and face to face and some therapists do stay on have stayed exclusively on Zoom I think the rise or the increasing or the evolution of online therapy in some form will start to start will start to you know it was prominent anyway now as I said with the pandemic will will increase in that way. Yeah. It will become more mainstream then yeah. If it's not now. Yeah. And that's interesting because and I again I don't know this and you might know this in terms of search it is and I'm sure that it is by the way but I haven't looked at it before this podcast is to a training exclusively exclusively on Zoom therapy for example so you trained in transaction analysis to 12 perhaps there is now on there is added training to it do you know what I mean you can a bit of extra training on how to be in a Zoom conversation with a client paying more attention to your background and your body language because obviously it's through a screen yeah your methods yeah but whether whether it's entirely online without any background information I don't know I can even have therapy via text now and voice messages and things without them seeing you that's what I'm seeing yeah and of course there's some styles the lens itself much more in to zoom the use of zoom so CBT for example cognitive behavioural therapy which is the favourite therapy by the NHS of the United Kingdom I think lens itself much more accessibility to zoom and say national therapy see I see CBT as angling towards coaching as opposed to psychotherapy because it's very solution focused it's very goal orientated which I see coaching as that you come in with a goal and you know have a plan on how we're going to reach that goal so it fits into zoom much more than some of the you know dynamic transaction analysis many of these different models because they would favour perhaps a study on the relationship being more effective cure rather than what you're just talking about so I think certainly be more moved towards online therapy, text therapy, instagrams and things like that another area perhaps and I haven't read a book with this term for somebody said to me there is a book and it's called robotic therapy in other words the use and emergence of robots I think I saw something on a Facebook post about that therapy of the future I was listening to the or reading about Elon musk yeah which is person in the world his basic to people knowing for the creation of tells of the electric motors motors and of course the creation space rockets, private space rockets for multi planetary expansion and what you might not know or do know that he's also very interested in the mind and putting neurochips into minds and that's going to help in mental health and putting money into I don't know if the term is the therapeutic robots but I'm going to use it might be a never term so you go along or you won't go along, it will be a portal probably up with Charlie the robot and how are you today Mr Cook what is your mental health today and you say well I feel a bit down in terms of feeling down in a ratio of 1 to 10 are you 6 or are you 5 you'll get that type of robot and I was listening I don't know when it was it was about a week ago on channel 4 talking about the expansion of robotic therapy I don't know if that's the phase where they had developed Charlie to such an extent that had been researched this time the other people going along etc so this is in America and what they were stuck on what they're stuck on is empathy how do you program empathy into a robot and they were discussing about learned empathy and being able to not lot and it won't be long have an empathic chip so the robot can talk about feelings I say I don't like all of that Bob we'll be out of a job won't we I think for me personally I see the future being completely split yes the online robotic not face to face stuff but then I see another pathway of connection to nature and the planet walking out through a forest and having walking therapy and the whole holistic physical mental spiritual bits together so in my head there's going to be two completely different camps two universes yes because we are moving into a society where everything's rushed having to travel an hour to see your therapist to have an hour of therapy and then travel an hour back I think those days are maybe numbered so doing it online or a text message it's like quick do it it's like quick do it it's like quick do it it's like a way of a way of life and part of our life and an experience rather than an end goal if that kind of makes sense yes it makes sense and do you think a third dimension would be psychotherapy spoke spiritually out to you would you put that all in the holistic dimension you're talking about I think maybe in the holistic but on the peripheries it's like you know animal assisting therapy and things there's that many variations on the holistic well-being of us as human beings and the connection that's the bit I think the robotic side is going to miss is that relational and that connection with somebody which to me is vital I was just I was just thinking about learned empathy because there's a whole a whole debate about empathy and you know it being learned I was thinking people aspergers or autistic etc and can you teach empathy and the idea of an empathy chip given to Robus what do you think of that sort of idea so they can ask about feelings and explore how persons feeling today well I'm thinking from a brain that came into its own in 1966 so that's like you know what I mean I don't know I just wondered what you thought I think you're right I think you're right it was only 10 years ago or less 6 years ago 7 years ago and the assessment somebody was talking about they were depressed so they went along to the doctors oh I know Puptian Eastern Therapy you know you can go to the website called Beat the Blues and do a CBT questionnaire if we'd have had the conversation when I started in or maybe even when you started but I started in 1985 I would think that's never going to happen where we are now I would have never thought listening to the radio on channel 4 last week or the week before talking about robotic therapy and talking about the problems about getting a chip so they can put learned empathy chip if you like into the computer and then the computer can talk about I would not I would it would blow a might but if you ask me where I think we might go oh definitely you know and there might be a need for that for some people yeah I also agree completely with you by the way is I think there's the equine therapy the walking therapy the therapy of nature all that areas you're talking about I think will only expand I think there's a camp of people that are progressive and forward thinking and technology based and then I think there's another group of people that want to strip it all back go back to the good old days or back to nature or you know the planet provides us with everything that we need if we don't trash it type people and I think there is going to be two different camps I think we probably now in a way and certainly I think I think that isn't the whole idea about robotic therapy you know I'm sure that will increase should be an expansion in the other world as well and I'm not far from time and so I'll be really interesting to we can see back and see what happens I've really enjoyed that Bob I think that's it's fantasy now things are always evolving and changing evolution isn't a bad thing no I love the discussion though because it allows me to play with the idea yeah food for thought definitely so until next time Bob when we will be discussing dealing with suicide issues on this run up to Christmas I think just on that point disappear when I went to John Lewis's near where I lived the other day and I saw all the Christmas other Christmas Christmas stuff I felt suicidal there's going to be a wonderful podcast please don't switch off next week because on a serious note you know there's been a such a rise in suicide especially in young men in the last decade that is a really important subject I'm sure all therapists will in their professional career be facing these issues until next time Bob thank you bye bye you've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast we hope you enjoyed the show don't forget to 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