 charting a low-carbon route to growth. We're delighted with the panelists that we have here today for this important topic, not least for China's own green growth strategy but also for the world and in particular in relation to how one charts that growth path given the tumultuous economic conditions that we're facing in the world at the moment. I'm delighted that James Cameron, Vice Chairman and Founder of Climate Change Capital in the UK will moderate us for this discussion and I shall hand over to him to introduce the panelists and to lead us through the conversation for the next hour. My name is Dominic Waray, I'm a Senior Director at the World Economic Forum in charge of sustainability, environmental and low-carbon activities. This discussion and this topic area forms an important part of the program of work that we do at the World Economic Forum with many partners so I hope you enjoy the discussion and I look forward to the debate. Thank you very much James. Well thank you very much Dominic and for all your work and your team's work on making this a topic for our conversation today. My name is James Cameron, I'm a founder of an enterprise called Climate Change Capital which is a if you like a specialist investment business focused on low-carbon growth in all of its forms. I'm also part of the UK Prime Minister's Business Advisory Group and I'm really there in order to help communicate the ideas that we're about to discuss for that particular government's analysis of how the UK economy might develop over the years to come. So I'm confident this is a topic that we ought to be discussing and I'm very pleased to have the panel that we have before you and we'll give plenty of opportunity to you the audience to join in a discussion of what is a fascinating but complex debate about how to make the kinds of investments including in innovation following on from the previous panel this morning some of which will be disruptive so that we can reconfigure our economy around a slightly different pathway one which was very clearly articulated and authoritatively articulated this morning by Premier Wenjabao and if you pick up not just the language not just the rhetoric associated with green growth with resource conservation with resource efficiency but the specific targets that are being set into the longer term one senses that a very large marketplace is being created that we have not yet filled out but the people on this panel have some contribution to make not just in the world of ideas but also in the material world presenting technologies and business ideas that we hope we will find fascinating and we're going to begin with a Chinese contribution we're going to start with a very remarkable story about a very remarkable company led off by its chairman and CEO Gao. Gao Jifan is the chairman and chief executive officer of Trina Solar and he's going to give us a brief description of how things have developed there and answer the the key question that we face and all the panelists will pick up in one or another this morning this afternoon is as major economies shift to a low-carbon model what are the implications for business globally. Gao Jifan, thank you very much Mr Chairman indeed in Premier Wen's speech he mentioned during the 12th five-year program period the percentage of non-fossil fuel in China's energy structure will be significantly increased indeed China is one of the fastest growing countries in the world and in the future energy shortage is going to be a serious challenge for us one solution is to reform our energy structure and more importantly we need to develop alternative sources of energy the Chinese government has made huge investment in alternative energy of the last several years or so the Chinese government has introduced new policies to integrate the electricity generated from alternative sources into the power grids based on my experience I want to share my thoughts with you I am an entrepreneur I graduated from college and got my master's degree in 1988 I had planned to go to UC Berkeley to pursue my doctor's degree but I decided to stay in China and started my own company and created a company that specialized in solar energy China is rich in resources and people were asking me asking me back then what are your thoughts about creating solar energy well my initial thinking was creating low-cost universally available solar energy to the general public and people were telling me that that was a mission impossible but we are making our steps towards that dream and Trina solar has now developed into one of the leaders in this area and China itself has emerged as one of the most innovative countries in the world in solar energy and I believe there will be more and more emerging countries that will push the development of solar energy because solar energy is reliable clean and efficient and I believe by 2025 solar energy will become a very important component of many countries energy mix and by 2020 to 2025 the pricing structure for solar energy as part of the power grids will be much more optimized that it is now so that in the future solar energy will play the important role just as we see the thermal energy right now thank you thank you very much and we will certainly return to some of these technological innovations and the capacity we might have to scale them up so that a low carbon pathway is possible for many different economies but let's now turn to to Klaus Klaus Kleinfant who's the chairman of a very significant global enterprise Alcoa whether if you like a natural position in carbon but with a tremendous scope for innovation and perhaps you might describe where you've got to and you're thinking about this new pathway yeah as you as you said correctly I mean we are lucky to have a material that solves I mean in a way aluminum is infinitely recyclable 75% of all aluminum ever produced on this planet is still in use it's light it's strong so it's part of the solution but I think that's one thing and that's important so it's growing in all kinds of application and helps to reduce the carbon footprint but I think that's one thing to do the second thing is you also have to internally work on the processes and if I look at if I look at what we have done over the last 10 years I mean we have reduced our carbon footprint by almost 40% today on the smelting side I mean about two-thirds of the energy that we use in smelting is hydropower right and and I believe that we really I mean with this can contribute I mean to a sustainable economic growth I mean on the larger on the larger theme here my view is that we need to have more of an understanding of kind of cradle to cradle I mean what is because very often the debates that we are seeing are debates that stop at one point in the value at chain and do not look throughout the value at chain and very often do not I mean there's a lot of words missing done here when you talk about recycling for instance you know people now talk about all kinds of recycling but in the end you see that very often materials only have 10 15% that get recycled I think there's an understanding that we need to have and a little bit more of a precision on how we matter these types these types of things throughout the value chain also including for instance when we look at I mean light weighting in cars I mean we can easily shave off 40% of the weight of a chassis in a car or total 10% of the total weight of a car through light weighting with aluminum alone which basically equals a 10% reduction in emission I mean these are things that are critically important for for us jointly to understand and I hope that in the debate we'll talk also a little bit about what governments can do and how we see that role there we certainly will we'll be picking up the the right public policy interventions that can encourage innovation and also perhaps return to the theme of of the right metrics for measuring performance along the way because that's obviously critical now there are there are many different perspectives to bring out here but one it's clearly very important for the whole development of this subject matter is the role of government and and the right interventions made by government so that the right responses come in a way that can encourage the development of our economy down this new pathway we're very fortunate to have Soichi Kondo here with us who until very recently held that position in government to guide and direct environmental initiatives in the government of Japan and I'd be curious to know of his perspective on on the nature of green growth and the kinds of interventions that he would expect to see not just in Japan but perhaps in some other economies as well. Thank you very much Mr. Moderator. As was introduced I am the member of the House of Representatives and I serve as the State Secretary for government until quite recently under Prime Minister Kan. In taking part in this discussion I'd like to thank you very much. On the 11th of March there was a great earthquake in the eastern part of Japan many lives lost and there are still many people in very difficult situation under evacuation but we received a lot of support and expression sympathy from throughout the world. We are most grateful touched and moved and in fact this big earthquake exerted impact on the Japanese situation and the policies we take. Two years ago as a Democratic Party of Japan's regime when we took the initiative we have announced the global environmental policy of reducing 25 percent of greenhouse gas by 2020 and those to support this has not been enacted yet. Especially in conjunction with the tax measures to enable these measures as well as the buy-in system of buying the renewable energy has not been established because the business circle is afraid that buying the renewable energy into grid may increase the power rate and also under the impact of the great earthquake there are worries and concerns that the new measures may exert the impact on the business activities. Well because we had such a situation we should try to see for the generation of power in a distributed and dispersed way without over dependence on nuclear power but taking more dependence on renewable and alternative sources of energy. Therefore we established the feed-in system level of the renewable energy source to the power grid in the past parliamentary session and it has not yet passed the national diet but the measures have been taken and with the tax support we should create a low carbon society and it is not just a simple prevention of the warming but it is creating the new type of society with the distributed power sources. Thank you. That is fascinating. There is clearly a lot going on in Japan and this potential for regeneration or reconstructing Japan down a greener pathway seems to be very attractive not least to the younger generation as well who is seeing opportunity for themselves to innovate in that space. Now Melanie, you have been involved in social entrepreneurship, you advise large corporations, help them get a broader perspective on their day to day business and you have perspectives on different pathways for development from your day to day experience. Perhaps you can share those ideas with us at the stage and we will come back to some of these themes of how best government should intervene. Thanks very much James and good afternoon everyone. I think in terms of alternative pathways we have several decades of literature and experience from civil society and also green companies across the world which is showing how actually you can put concepts such as cradle to cradle in practice. There are a number of challenges. I think that the biggest challenge we face right now is an enormous gulf between the companies which are brought on to the green agenda and let me just re-emphasize it is not just about low carbon. The challenges that we are facing relate to food issues, energy issues, water issues, waste recycling issues. I mean there is a very long list of problems and we need horizontal integration across all of those. We also need leadership but if we are just to have a small minority of leading global businesses which are the converts and we have the rump of business which is unaffected and certainly in countries like my own there is very little mobilization on that rump of business which still feels that it can externalize the social, the environmental, the ethical costs. So we will certainly come to the policy issues around the role of extended producer responsibility etc. But we are finding in our own work that a number of alternatives are already in play. In India we have just been amassing information on very new social business models where young entrepreneurs in particular because there is a fundamental generation gap I think. There is a totally different set of expectations by young people in my country about how they should be using new information about their societies, about access to new media and information technologies to totally refashion the social compact. We don't have a social compact, they want a social compact. They want to ensure that business actually has a social purpose and meets very basic social housing, environmental and economic needs of people. So the ideas are out there. Gender and idea. Long experience in the world of politics, now business and investment in South Africa. Much of the debate about the green economy has been led if you like in the north. But I know from discussing with you and various parts of the world, including at the forum in Cape Town, the innovation and the development of ideas that are taking place in the South and you've been involved with. Perhaps a perspective from South Africa on green growth and some of your personal experience of how hard this is to do but how important it is as well. Okay, we're an investment company which, in Tealia, invests in a very old technology coal-based power station on the one hand and on the other hand we have developed together with the power utility in South Africa a new technology for the smart grid. Initially we started off as something to stop blackouts and then it's developed into something much more ahead of its time. Very cool and exciting stuff. And I think the learning that we have from this of course is that when it comes to old technology and old business models, it's much easier to do business. You know your path to revenue, you know your path to contract, capital is available so it's much easier to fund and develop established businesses and it'll continue for some time. But businesses that are at the cutting edge are much higher risk in regulated markets like South Africa. It's much more difficult to see your path to revenue even if your technology partner is the one that you're trying to sell the product to and your access to capital is very constrained. So I think we've had since the exciting time in Cape Town many more bruises and realization that actually on the ground it will take quite a long time to implement business models that are based on a different way of doing things. And that's because I think in the World Economic Forum if you were an alien visiting Earth and you only have the World Economic Forum as your benchmark, you'd think this planet was in wonderfully safe hands with brilliant smart people and wise leaders. But in the real world actually the tendency is towards the centuries old legacy technology that we have in place. So I think the challenge is for you know what the Chinese are doing, what the Japanese are doing for all of that to drive developments forward. And fortunately South Africa, Brazil, India, you know you're finding these positive signs as well but it will take quite some time and patience to actually succeed. I'm going to come to this great and wise and brilliant audience in a minute so start preparing your questions but just a quick round up of some themes that we want to deal with more. We're going to come back to the vital role of government to set directions to create the right policy frameworks. We've been hearing about Japan and feed-in tariffs and incentives in the five-year plan for your business, Gao Jifan, and you know some experiences around the world of what we think will work but we accept that there's going to be some experimentation. These are big changes. They're going to take time. We haven't got all the answers but we do expect some leadership from government to help organize the business response, to incentivize the business response. We're aware that there are incumbent technologies, there are strong vested interests. They were nicely discussed in the previous panel in this room but we also know that there will be disruption, it will be exciting, there will be new technologies and they will find much larger markets because of this new demand that are being created. We've also heard that there is an intergenerational factor here, vital importance because the resource depletion issue, the climate change issue is clearly a legacy passed on from generation to generation. There are in some sense conflicts between priorities. The generation now in power has to find ways of looking after a future generation but with some pressing current needs and that's another investment challenge, how to make investment available for the longer term. We find our capital markets struggling to provide the risk capital for entrepreneurship, for changes in business models in times of insecurity. So that risk capital is hard to get, long term finance is very hard to get, it's sometimes easy to get in economies such as this where there is a long term plan and where relatively cheap capital is available to grow sectors that are strategic for the long term interests of an economy like China. So all of these issues seem to be in play, it's a very exciting place, it's very difficult to get your handle on things that can be done right now that will get you a good investment or political return. So before I turn to all of you, I'm just going to test the panel out very briefly, instinctively, on what interventions do you think might stimulate the best reaction out of the business community towards this low carbon growth pathway. It's slightly artificial to pick a single example or a cluster, but I think I'd like to try anyway because I think your instincts will be good. And I might just start with Melanie, if you would have just give your advice to political leaders in particular, choose this and we think we'll take the first good steps down a low carbon pathway, what would it be? You know what's been really striking, talking to leading green entrepreneurs in India and these are CEOs, not just entrepreneurs but also CEOs of big businesses, is those who are doing the right thing for the right reason don't feel rewarded in the marketplace. They don't feel that their customers are rewarding them and they feel we're doing the right thing because we are driven by the right set of convictions. We still want to be around and we want to be successful in another 10 years, 20 years. I think there are two ways in which businesses like those can be supported and motivated to continue on that path. The first is for the government to provide some means of recognizing their good works through the fiscal taxation system. Find some ingenious way of doing that. The second is for there to be more credible kite marks of excellence, such that you can actually differentiate between a company which is actually doing good, not just talking about doing good, measurably, verifiably doing good. That's a link also. The class is going about good metrics and good data. So those two things. Yeah, lovely. Class, a response? Let me talk, give you two specific examples that I've seen in my lifetime working enormously well and at the time when they got started you wouldn't even notice them. Why is Denmark, I mean before China became the the center of the the wind industry, Denmark was the center of the wind industry. Why is that so? Having gone there in my youth all the time and seen how people have been experimenting with it, there was one single change of legislation in Denmark, and this was in the 80s, where the Danish government decided that if you are producing energy you can have the meter go backwards. And that would mean that you would actually get the same amount that you would have to pay for a kilowatt hour. I mean the respective utility would have to pay you if you were producing energy, right? That alone, I mean that hundreds of farmers you know that didn't have anything to do in wintertime experiment with wind energy, right? And here we see what innovation can produce, right? That was one thing. The second thing I've seen in Germany, and I still remember, I mean Germany is a country that loves to drive cars. We all know that and has autobahns and loves to drive fast. You know it was an unbelievable shock in my youth when there was, I think it was four weekends, autobahns were closed down and it was the oil shock, you know? And it became crystal clear, you could not drive. That was like, I mean you take, I mean beer away, that was probably worse, you know? All the soccer team is going to lose, you know? So something like that, a real shock and on top of it there was a huge tax on gasoline, huge tax on gasoline was extremely expensive. So what has that led to? I mean when you look at today's innovation and about fuel consumption, I mean there's no surprise yet that you see when it comes to motor technology, I mean those countries that have made it extremely difficult to use gasoline, extremely expensive, were the ones that were driven through efficiency at a very early point in time, you know? These things work very well. So there's a regulatory intervention that encouraged innovation, there's a fiscal measure that put a price on carbon is one way to do that, and there's a cultural effect from the shock of the hydrogen. Absolutely, absolutely. And I mean one example that also I think is a great example is obviously John F. Kennedy's I mean Plan Go to the Moon, which is the emission, emission comes also from a shock by the way, the Sputnik shock, right? And saying we take that as an opportunity and we move forward. And we had a sense of that a bit this morning, you know, emission. Resource efficiency is going to be the way economies develop and manage risk associated with conflict over scarcity. And I'm very keen to make this connection between managing risk for an economy and low carbon growth. You can use low carbon growth as a device for dealing with climate change. You can use it as a device for managing resource efficiently. And you can find a way of having a more stable economic pathway in front of you. And these things, we need to explore a bit more with the audience. Any other? Jennifer, pick one. Yeah. Mackenzie has done a very interesting study. And if you look at that, the low hanging fruit that's available for is really the area of energy efficiency. And there's a whole range of relatively cheap but high impact interventions that can be quickly done, and which would take out 30 to 40% of the potential emissions in the world in the next 20, 30 years. And in order for that to really take off, I think the key thing is that people need to have information where you can measure what you're doing and you can see the financial consequences of that. Because that I think is the key. Business is not, no matter what convictions they are, you're driven by a view of the financial implications of what you're doing, whether to invest, whether to deal with your costs in certain ways. So a regulatory change with a smart meter and a smart grid where you could exchange not just data but value. Did you notice the way I was? We're very good. Yes. Go ahead, John. Choices. For most of the energies that we use, for example gas or coal, that is the traditional energy and eventually the coal. And in terms of the use of... Well, right now we still face many difficulties or loopholes in utilizing solar energy, in particular due to unpredictable weather conditions. We still have a lot of unpredictabilities in energy conservation systems. But I believe we have a very clear direction forward. Once we are very sure about the way forward, then we can be very confident about how to solve the challenges in front of us. And I'm very confident that we can be very successful in further utilizing solar energy. And once we are sure about the direction, then the government should introduce the right policies, the right incentives to support the development of this industry. Government policy support is very essential for promoting the development of this industry. I know in Japan, in Germany, which are the forerunners of solar energy in those countries, the governments and the enterprises have the right incentives in place to be willing to invest in this industry and to grow solar energy in real earnest despite the occasional failures. On the whole, they have been very successful in developing solar energy in Japan, in Germany. And on the whole, they have greatly optimized their energy structure. I have been engaged in the solar energy industry for about 14 years. And based on my experience, I think solar energy is going to play an even more important role in our society, which is going to be beyond all our imagination in the coming years. Thank you. I think we'll come back to how bigger part of the future these technologies could be. But let me just finish off with Shurichi Kondo, if you have a particular instinct from your political experience as to what public policy interventions might be most effective in creating this pathway to low carbon growth. I talked about this earlier. The one measure was that the pricing system for the energy saving consumer electronics and the buyers get the point back and it could be used for purchasing consumer electronics devices and also for housing the eco point system when the good heat insulation devices are put in houses, then the owner of the house will get the points and could save the cost. So this kind of measures will be introduced and promote the awareness among the people and also promotion of the low carbon society. And it was very well received and the government has further emphasized that as Mr. Gao Jifan mentioned. In Japan, because of the regular checkup of the nuclear power plant in this country, and when they do not reopen, then in May next year all these power plants will be stopped. And we cannot switch to no nuclear power society overnight about what becomes important is to promote the use of renewable energy and solar energy and wind energy with the feeding system and also fiscal and public support, public finances support to those industrial sectors. So again, just to recap, we've had expressions of support for regulatory intervention that puts a price on carbon one way or another, not necessarily in a single form, but one way or another puts a price on carbon. We've had a strong connection with the consumer made through these initiatives in Japan where you get a payback from purchasing, which it responds in some way to manage the request for a reward that connects the consumer and the manufacturer. We've seen opportunity come to a whole industrial sector from clear public policymaking in a direction, a mission if you like set by the Chinese government here for the solar industry. And we've got examples of business innovation happening around better metrics, a better display of performance that people can feed off literally in the business environment. Before I come to all of you in a moment, let me just go around again and look for the kinds of innovations, both business and technological, that you see offering best prospects now that we have some sense of the necessity of government intervention in many forms, without picking a single standout measure. Which technologies, which business models, which ways in which our business community could adapt and develop to these challenges, do you find most promising? Who would like to lead off there? Anybody? Klaus, if you've got something you can see in your sights. Yeah, I think connecting to a thing that was said before, so let's start with businesses. Why are businesses doing it? Businesses are first of all doing it because the economics work out, right? So that would be a good thing if the economics would work out. Secondly, it would be good if you were to see that there would be a stronger push on the consumer side to go for the right choices, right? That's where we're connecting to the earlier debate. And I think, thirdly, you said it right. I think that the generation that we recruit today has a very, very different social consciousness and very different standards and wants to see and wants to only work for companies that are sustainable, and they are very good with social networks to distinguish between those that just have that on glorious PR paper and that really don't do it. And given also the new realities that the media is not really controlling the message anymore, but social media do, I mean, so if a company basically doesn't match up the behavior and truth to what they say, I think the likelihood that you will be discovered is very, very high, you know? And I think, therefore, I mean, I think as a business leader, I mean, I think you really have no choice if you're a realistic, future oriented business leader, you want to have a company that is a leader in the sustainable period, right? And that goes also to how you deal with government. Absolutely. The way you respond to government initiatives, the way you lobby also, and your membership of lobbying organizations. I would say you do it in a true partnership, because I don't think that the answer is on allies in the hand of government or in the hand of private entities. And we have had enough already on this panel, we have had enough examples where you see you have to work hand in hand. And you'll see it in the audience. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Marlon, would you like to... Yeah, just I'd like to give three examples from different sectors. The first is a company I'm very familiar with, Unilever. Unilever has done something quite unique. It set out a very big challenge. So it set out the Unilever Sustainable Living Plan last year, and it's got targets. It's got very, very ambitious targets. Just to mention one of them in food production, it said that it's going to source all of its agricultural raw materials sustainably by 2020. Now, what that does is it's an invitation. It's an invitation to all of their supply chain across the value chain, and very importantly, to consumers. Join us in this effort. Make it worth our while, but you have to lead on the cultural change that will be required. It makes a promise to governments. This is what we're doing. It engages everyone. And the word that I don't hear of enough, and the approach you don't hear of enough, is the approach and the word partnership. We can't do it alone. Yeah. And we have assumed that someone else, some big daddy out there is going to take care of it. So, Klaus, when you talk about aluminium recycling, yes, it's a recyclable material, but who recycles it? You have to engage with policy makers, and you have to engage with civil society organisations. So, both ends of the spectrum, there is a pressure. The third point is transport. In India, a few years ago, Dada Amotis came out with this much celebrated $2,000 car, the Nano. It's bombed completely in India. They could have done something totally different, totally ingenious. What they could have done is actually worked with the municipalities and the planners and say, what is our mobility need, and how can we, as a motor manufacturer, help supply that. They should have worked with the planners in the way that, in Berkeley, automobile companies and city planners are working hand in glove. So, these are the pathways forward. It's partnership. Yeah. And we heard an example earlier today from Korea of exactly that partnership between a university and a government and domestic manufacturers to build a new kind of vehicle and new kind of transport system. Terrific. Any other contributions that you can think of where there's an innovation that's exciting that we can talk about in the business setting? There's a lot of innovations that exist that can be applied in an incremental way, that can make an impact. And there's a lot more exciting stuff in the pipeline and things that we haven't yet thought about, which is coming even in areas exotic like energy storage and all of that stuff. But what drives all of this is actually economics and politics more than technology. And I think that, to me, is a critical thing. And when people have a business case, whether it comes from regulatory pressure or consumer pressure, that is going to affect the bottom line in terms of the cost going up or the revenue opportunity being affected negatively or positively. That's going to make the things change. So, for example, one of the things that we were looking at trying to develop our business case was the carbon credits. Yes. And we come across the thing that it only applies when you don't have a viable business. Okay. So, unless it's a really crap business, you shouldn't apply for carbon credits. So, okay, that's a bad idea. In my opinion, it's a really bad idea. But if you were to say, these businesses are actually having a positive impact on carbon emissions. They should get some credits. Those businesses having a negative impact, they should have to buy these credits. And you don't have to put any special tests that only buy it from the disabled, buy it from somebody who's actually providing that. That kind of thing would release businesses into a positive business case towards an investment flows towards the new areas. Oh, you've hit such a sore point in my own personal history with that example, because there is a policy mechanism that I think all the panel, and there are various ways to some extent more exposed than others, would agree on that a price on carbon will help innovation in the development of a low-carbon economy. But how you do it, how you make the mechanism effective, how do you reward the good behavior, that requires very skilled public policy making, and it requires a very honest and straightforward dialogue between powerful interests, both on the environment side and on the business side. And what we've come up with is something too complicated, that doesn't create the alignment of interest that you are describing, with many people on the environment side wanting to limit the opportunities to do these projects in order to punish business, particularly in Europe, and make them perform to a higher standard. And as a result, we have a dysfunctional system. But the concept remains good, and we'll have to keep coming back to it, because we haven't got a better one right now, I don't think, personally, to cover the whole economy. But one thing I'd like to return to, particularly with the Chinese example, though I think there's a good examples in Japan as well, Gao Jifan, is the availability of relatively inexpensive capital of finance for this transformation, partly because the government is involved in the enterprise, and partly because the government has offered a very substantial marketplace looking ahead for this technology, it's a combination of policy direction, some procurement and cheap capital. And in answering that question, this is clearly of advantage to China. Is there a possibility, Gao Jifan, that this could be extended overseas, as China wants to put more capital overseas? We mentioned this morning in Premier Wen's speech. Foreign investment, investment by China in other economies on this green growth pathway looks like a promising idea. Do you see that possibility, maybe particularly in the solar sector? Indeed, for the solar energy sector, the government's policy support is the fundamental factor to enable the growth of this industry. And more importantly, it's about win-win. We can't just simply rely on government subsidies to grow this industry. We have to rely on our own organic growth. For example, for my company, Trino Solar, in 1996, we were listed on the New York Stock Exchange and then we started investing worldwide. Right now in Europe, in the US, Middle East, we have all kinds of investment projects going on in all these different geographies. Therefore, I believe government support is one thing, it creates the foundation, but on that basis, more importantly, the investors should find ways to sustain their investment so that we can create win-win benefits for all stakeholders. And in terms of technology, previously when we looked at solar energy, we would always choose places to invest where we had a very good pricing mechanisms in place, especially for incorporating solar energy into the power grids. And those countries would be Japan, Germany, etc. Right now there are many new ideas. For example, for individual households, right now they can power their house by relying on solar energy 100% rather than relying on electricity from the power grids. Maybe by 2020, I believe there will be many, many more households around the world that are powered 100% by solar energy. That is, their house will become a zero emission household and the household can become an independent unit for energy conservation. So by then, by 2020, these households will not be limited by the power generation capacity of the power grids. If my dream can become true by 2020, then solar energy can play such a powerful role around the world and will not be so limited by the power grids. Systems around the world. My proposal, which works so well in underdeveloped regions, especially in Africa, I believe that in Africa, solar energy is going to be its primary source of energy rather than oil and gas, especially from 2020 onwards. Thank you very much. Now it's time for you, audience, to bring your questions to the panel. At that last point, I find really very exciting to contemplate. I'd like some views about that. I'd also like to see whether or not we feel it's a credible proposition, this green growth pathway, lots of difficulties, lots of expenses, lots of costs, but also the price of a more resilient economy with lower operating costs may lie ahead with that last example being in our minds. So lots of hands have gone up, gentlemen over here in the time and then followed by you, and then there are two back there. So let's start. Maybe we can just take one, two, three, four. Maybe we can take the four questions in a row, there's one over here too, that's a lot. Let's start over here and we'll get them in a sequence. Yes, my name is Raphael. I'm representing MW Group and Engineering Company for High Tech Facilities. I'm missing one part of the discussion from the current business model. When you look to the past, it was always that there's the industry that needs the energy at a certain space, at a certain time, and the producer just has to follow. So most discussion is about it's not available when you need it and it's too expensive because you have to store it. So I'm wondering perhaps Mr. Kleinfeld as somebody that knows a lot of industries, how do you see the role of the industry in becoming more flexible in utilizing energy when it's most cost efficient or in storing the energy right in your production process rather than having external storage for it? It's a great question. I'm sure class you have a view about that. It might also add one more notion we might want to discuss about business models changing from selling products to selling services, which may well emerge in the automobile industry in due course. Gentlemen here, just say here you are and I'll ask a question. Okay. I'm from China. I'm from Zhejiang. So my question is I would like to ask the panelists. Just now you've talked about the policies in your own country. However, in the globalization world for a lot of developed countries, they will open their factory in developing countries. Maybe the companies in their own home countries are low carbon. However, the factory in the developed countries are not low carbon. One example in point is Apple. Also, a lot of factory set up by the western companies in developing countries are highly polluted. So my question is that are those companies willing to show their irresponsibility in the process? Are they willing to provide technologies and finance to developing countries in order to solve this problem? Thank you. Good question. An old problem of people applying double standards, but it's something we can discuss. The two questions back there and then we'll have the question in front and we'll close that off and then we'll get the panel. Yes, just introduce who you are. Hi, I'm from Economist Observer. My question is directed to Mr Gao. Just now you've mentioned about the pricing of electricity. I'd like to ask you recently the NDRC has set up the price for electricity. So my question is that the price for electricity is 1.15 RMB and the R.O., the return on investment is 0.8%. So when can we earn the return on investment can you explain on this problem? And also you've mentioned about development of new energy and development of new energy required policy support. So from your perspective what kind of policies can best support the development of solar energy besides the policies in terms of the pricing mechanism? Thank you. I think we've probably covered the policy angle already but perhaps if you pick the first part of the question up. Yes, go ahead. Hi, I'm also from Economist Observer. My question is directed to the Japanese speaker. I know that the nuclear power take a very large proportion in terms of energy structure. So you've talked about the diversification of the energy structure in Japan. So what kind of resources are you planning to replace nuclear power? Do you have a schedule because I know there might be some difficulties in terms of legislation? Thank you. What else apart from nuclear power, combination of new sources and decreasing demand? Here we go in the front here. Last one then we'll have the panel. Hi, my name is Manuel Tarauta from SoCemiconductor. I fully agree with the whole panel and with Ms. Mera about the incentives and political government incentives and with you Mr. Naidu about the hanging fruits. But unfortunately I see that only two big countries are really working and taking this really serious about the energy. This is Japan and one is South Korea. And I would like to ask you Mr. Kondo if you could teach us. If I'm looking this year eight of 10 LED bulbs, eight of 10 are LED bulbs and retrofit tubes. And this only one year. They say 50% of energy. So this is the safest energy because it's really green. You save a lot of energy. And how you did it? I would really like that you teach us what you did, what programs you started, why customers now are buying so many LEDs retrofitted. This I would be really interested. Great question. We've made an investment in an LED lighting business and I'm very pleased with it. You pick up what you wish from those questions, some being targeted at various individuals. As you make your answer, since we're coming to a conclusion, I'd like you to just address the notion of competitiveness because in many of these questions there is buried in it the idea that there either might be a competitiveness cost in making this change or there might be a competitiveness gain. And I'd just like your instinctive response to that as you answer these questions. Maybe we'll begin with the Chinese question about the solar industry and the rates of return. China has launched the pricing for electricity and for this year is 1.15 yuan per kilowatt per hour. I can say that it's very appropriate to launch the pricing at this time, at this year, especially in western regions where the daytime is very long. So I believe that there will be a very good return on investment because the daytime is long. However, in the eastern region of China, the daytime is relatively short so that the return on investment is relatively low when compared with the western region of China. So after the launching of the pricing mechanism of the pricing in China, unlike in Germany, we have a unified pricing. However, we have also launched some solutions. For example, we have given subsidies for eastern regions where the daylight is short and the electricity might be less than that of the western region all in all in the past several years. I can say that the policy is quite appropriate. It is because during the past several years in terms of the solar energy in the world, because the government given a lot of support and the innovation is continuing so that the costs of the solar energy has been decreasing all the time. For example, when we compared off the price of solar energy several years, five years ago and with now, the price for now is only one third of that of five years ago. And this is because of technology innovation and government support so that I can finish that in the next five to 10 years, the cost of solar energy will be less and less. The cost will be much more similar to that of nuclear energy so that we are very confident that the solar energy will become a very important part in terms of the total energy structure. Thank you very much. Industrial efficiency and timing your production processes with development. An important point and I think I said early on, I mean if you look at our statistics, I mean basically, while doubling production, we've brought CO2 consumption basically means energy efficiency down by 40 percent so you can do a lot but you have to constantly push. On your point, we are a large energy consumer and you can use large energy consumers in a way to stabilize the grid because one of the big issues always is to have a production that's made for capturing the peak time. And large energy consumers can help on that. So what we have in quite a number of countries, we have so-called interuptability clauses built into our energy contracts so that we basically can ramp the production down even on a very short term and interrupt the production and therefore allow the energy to flow into the grid instead of going into our production. Now that requires a lot of work in the company, I tell you, and it's sometimes actually pretty scary. But that's one of the things that we are substantially working on and I'm extremely positive about the impact that I've seen already and obviously what you've been saying on the smart grid would be super helpful on that, basically bringing the same logic to the consumer, making those choices. On the competitive, so that said, so the second thing on the competitiveness, I'm a big believer in the end, the market is the best model in sorting it out. At the same time, I also do believe that for some industrial, for some innovation, you need such an enormous push that it makes sense for kind of a government support until basically the plant has grown to a level where it has to stand on its own. But you also have to choose the point in time right to not have it go too long and incentivize the wrong behavior. And unfortunately, when I look at ethanol, you have an example where you'd say, my God, ethanol in California, how much sense does that really make in terms of sustainability? General, we had a question about double standards. I know my name's got to be used on this too. I certainly have. I've done cases against multinational corporations for abuse of the environment and human rights in developing countries. An instinctive response to that gentleman's question about the double standards. You know, as a former trade unionist, when I went into business 10, 11 years ago, a businessman told me, you know, the difference between a trade union where you have the philosophy that the injury to one is an injury to all and business where an injury to one is an opportunity to the other. You've got to get used to this idea. And basically, I think, you know, business, my learning is that business is a very simple group of people. And whatever their values, they are ultimately driven by one thing, which is does it make money? So in the places where they are developed infrastructure already in Europe and America, which is aging and which is built on all technology, they will only move to reinvest if they are under pressure from their consumers and their governments. And it makes business sense for them to do that, or else they will lose the business opportunity. And I think that puts the pressure on those governments to actually take the leadership of those countries. I guess you'd probably agree with that, but you've got some other experiences and working with companies to add to that perspective. Yeah, yeah, certainly. I'd like to pick up on the issue of double standards and also competitiveness and then a unifying theme for me at least. On double standards, I think we live in a changed world. Double standards anywhere, there should be zero tolerance for. If you want to get your facts on what's happening with Apple, I suggest a colleague's website, Marjun, he's a very well-known environmentalist, also runs an institute in China which actually publicizes information given by companies about violations on the environment. In terms of the new world I was referring to, be aware and agitate not just for the alleged bad practice of Western companies, but do exactly the same when it comes to Chinese companies operating overseas. That's my motto. I want to make sure that Indian companies operating overseas, whether it's in China or in the United States, adhere to exactly the same standards that I would expect of their best competitors in the sector. So I don't want any double standards there. The second thing in terms of competitiveness, this can be a double-edged sword. We've spoken largely about big businesses, but the world out there doesn't comprise big businesses. No single economy comprises big businesses. Most of those are small, medium and micro enterprises, certainly the case in my country. There's a woman here who's Ethiopian. She's a YGL, a young global reader. I met her last night and I learned that she's actually producing fair trade, zero-emission shoes from Ethiopia. She's got zero help from anyone. She's done it off her bat. She's a mum with three kids and she's made the market out of it. She's done it off her own bat and she's done it because she has a model that is highly differentiated. She's succeeding in a very niche market. She's very competitive, but she relies on a very important factor out there, which is an informed, aware and concerned marketplace of largely European and American consumers who want to do the right thing by purchasing from women like her so that she has an income and she can contribute to the social welfare of her country. The only way that we can get both the balance right by the margin example because he's providing information and by the aware consumer example is if we have open societies and for me that is the unifying thing. We can do it because information out there informs the best decision making. So fight for open informed society. Final word maybe if you could just pick up the specific example of the LED lighting and then I've got to bring it to conclusion because we're out of time. Thank you Mr. Moderator. Two questions were raised and I like to give three answers. One there was mention of a business model and after the earthquake and disaster this time in eastern Japan and metro or polytentokya area power supply has been very severe and strict and the important thing was how to reduce the peak level of power consumption and how to ensure the supply to meet the peak demand and then the storage battery became the center of attention. Large capacity sodium storage battery and the government will be supporting all these efforts to come up with the highly efficient storage battery. And also going forward in Japan big issue is to reduce our dependence on the nuclear power generation and I was working in the environmental agency and I like to make two points not just the supply side but the demand side that is maybe we've been over consuming power and we should reflect upon that but the necessary power should be spent and used then how to make the wise and efficient use of energy. There was mention of LD LED light bulb. In order to light the light bulb or use the refrigerator TV the same consumer electronics but highly efficient energy saving devices. Therefore the people are looking at that maintaining the same level of efficiency and the standard of living but go to the more efficient and energy saving devices. Another is the renewable energy sources and during the last parliament session we have realized the feeding system of the renewable energy and also as the Ministry of Environment we are trying to establish a good investment environment to give the information as government where it's a good location for the solar power or the wind power or geothermal power generation what is a good location for such renewable energy generation. So we give the entire information so that there will be more investors business going this direction so we are trying to create such a good business environment. Another point is we will be embarking on the entire review of the energy plan and for renewable energy in the early part of 2020s we will make sure that the renewable energy will account for more than 20 percent of the total primary primary energy supply in Japan. There was mention of LED light bulb for this time entire people in Japan became fully aware of the possible shortage of power supply and tried to share in that efforts and LED light bulb the unique price is low so it's not covered by the eco point system but people switched to LED light bulb greatly because especially in the eastern part of Japan with the outbreak of earthquake the major big companies have been imposed with the order of saving the energy consumption by 25 percent with it's the orders with the impossible possible find and so forth therefore all the companies try to reduce the energy consumption by turning off the lights in places where people are not there and so forth and under such circumstances all the manufacturers started the volume production of LED light and the reduced price so it was a good virtuous cycle created. Tremendous story to finish up on thank you very much the panel the panel is not naive about the difficulties of charting this low carbon pathway to growth but i think you've held their attention for some time now they're focused on opportunities it's quite optimistic and i commend their their observations to you and look forward to further discussions and thank you very much