 The 2023 elections might not take place if insecurity is not solved, says Eminent or say Eminent Nigerians. And the River State APC governorship aspirants have signed a peace accord and a set of zone. The governorship position to the Riverine, Egypt, part of the state. This is Plus Politics and I'm Kofi Battel. Once again you welcome Nigerians including the president of the Christian Association of Nigeria, Sampson Ayokunle and the Sultan of Sakwato, Sa'ada Bubakar, have warned that widespread insecurity across the country is a greatest threat to the forthcoming elections in 2023. Also Hanez-e-Digbo scribe O.K. Emuche has said that as soon as the issue of Igbo presidency took a life of its own the spate of insecurity heightened in the south east. On his part representative of the Northern Elders Forum, Professor Yusuf Usman has argued that Nigeria's sliding to Anarchy began with the scrapping of history as a standalone subject from the school curriculum while noting that elders had lost control of the youth across the country. He added that mandatory was a social issue which must be addressed through justice and social reform. Joining us to discuss these we have Joseph Hyab who is the chairman of the Christian Association of Nigeria in Kaduna state and of course Charles O'Too who is a political gentleman. It's great to have you join us on Plus Politics. Good evening and welcome. Thank you for having us too. All right. Okay so I'll start with you Joseph Hyab. When we hear the when you hear the Christian Association or when we hear the president of the Christian Association of Nigeria and the Sultan of Sokoto speak together about the state of the nation this is something we don't hear or see on a regular basis. So what exactly should we make of it? In the past few years efforts have actually been going to bring these two major religious groups together and the leaders have been leading by example. There is synergy, there is understanding, there is platform or there are platforms that these two religious leaders have been meeting not just the two of them but with other representatives to begin to talk about Nigeria to begin to find solution Nigeria to begin to offer meaningful advice about Nigeria because we've realized that in the past the divisions that have always come out in the public domain are the things that the enemies of Nigeria use to continue to suppress the country to continue to cause havoc. Because when you deal with an enemy like this and all the enemy we want to see is division so that instead of you calling him or mentioning his fault you'll be busy fighting one another. I think time has come that leaders and all of us are beginning to see that unless we unite unless we begin to speak with one voice unless we come together to look at Nigeria as our country to look at the issues that are comforting us as a problem on every Nigeria not on Christians alone or Muslims alone not on Southerners or Northerners alone we cannot solve the problem. So for me I actually applaud this effort and I commend those who facilitated that meeting to bring that togetherness and I just hope that they will continue because it's not just because of 2023 relation it's about Nigeria. We need to be on the dialogue table as Nigeria speak as Nigeria. Look there's nothing wrong on that table we exchange words and express our grievances our express our pains but at the end we still embrace one another that is how we can offer meaningful advice to this country and that's when we will begin to have leaders and we will hold those leaders accountable but as long as we are divided our leaders will want to do what they want to do because they know we are divided we will not even hold them accountable instead of holding them accountable we will blame them one another. All right Charles so too what are your thoughts in relation to what your counterpart Joseph Habba said with these two leading figures coming out to speak about the state of the nation we're well aware that religious leaders have been speaking a lot in recent time and well documented there's a lot of mistrust between both faiths you know and especially when you look at the north and south and divide do you think that this is something that would change the narrative as far as the country is concerned and remove the mistrust between both faiths as far as a polity and the nation in general is concerned. Thank you very much for having me thank you Reba and I hope he has actually pointed out a very critical fact and that is the fact that the insecurity does not select who should be addicted you recall that the train that was hijacked by terrorists on this way to Pradunah the terrorists are concerned about the figure the number they are having to negotiate because they cause the government to negotiate you they did it as a late staple to say oh you are a Christian want to take you I keep you in custody you're a muslim you can go so that moved by the various religious group the Christian tradition of Nigeria and they saw time is a very good move and it's commendable it's actually sad that we are referring to it and they're making an analogy of how it's going to abstract the central regional elections not to mind in that Nigeria will need to survive long before the central regional elections and that this present trend continues uh there's not going to say in that it is a retreat to the election because I'm what it shows is that people have acquired massive arms what it also shows is that with the political temperature rising speedily there could be alignments with people who are armed to disrupt the process of the election we pray that doesn't happen to Nigeria but then if the recommendation made by these religious groups are not taken very seriously the way they should we should we could be heading to that doom Thursday after this could be very funded because it could be well funded because what have been their recommendations they are saying look the the the the the the the the the generality of the security architecture needs to be repositioned yeah you you don't find a scenario wherein the inspector general police for instance this is kaduna parades and confirms that the road leading to kaduna is very safe and the very next within 48 hours people are kidnapped on that road people are killed I mean if people are sitting tight to their positions as a security head what it means therefore is that what the national assembly told us may be correct that security in Nigeria has become a cash cow business is security in Nigeria that is what it has tested and then people are making a mislead of the nation from it look at the budget that is going to security this is this discussion in the last seven years you see a progression towards the of course the reconnaissance condition nobody is talking about what has been budgeted where has it gone into and what has been the response towards the budget if you put budgeted for the scanner aircrafts nobody is asking had they been purchased who is responsible for what what kind of arms and practice have this security has changed and that is why I personally accept the views of the leaders leaders that the leadership of the various security heads need to give space for people who have a new sense of need to take over okay all right interesting we've been having these and I'll go back to Joseph Hyab we've been having these statements in the past especially before elections I mean we've seen things like the national peace council we've seen things like you know politicians leading politicians and candidates of the leading parties coming together to sign peace pacts in the past and we still have violent elections now we're just not talking about violence during elections we're talking about the state of the nation and insecurity that may threaten the 2023 elections but nothing changed in the past so what can you say Joseph Hyab to convince me and the rest of our viewers that the statements of these elder statement statesmen religious leaders will go far or hold any water I think we must give credit to the efforts that have been put together in previous or in the last two elections Nigeria's will agree with me that in 2015 this Nigerian peace committee whatever they call themselves did a good job by engaging all the political actors at that time and somehow Jonathan became the hero hero by showing leadership and conceding to defeat and in 2019 they also did a lot of effort I'm not sure we actually have records that during those election people were killed as I'm hearing from you what we do have record is that there is insecurity in the country not that it happens so the insecurity the country have grown to the extent that we are now scared that we may not even do the election and so these leaders are calling and appealing that governments should wake up and ensure that the country is safe because we must have a country before we vote for someone to lead us if we don't have a country if we vote for you who are you going to lead are you going to lead just your family so I think this also because let's not confuse the whole conversation into as if there has been two times but but but Joseph Hyab what I'm saying is is we've had these statements in the past during elections before elections and I can give examples of states across the country where violence electoral violence was recorded even pre-election violence was recorded or election related violence was recorded we had religious leaders you know and and elder statesmen like we're having now visit some of these states and the leading candidates were made to sign peace packs they came out they even caught cakes and stuff but people still died they still armed thugs who went out and and scouted elections and they they killed themselves also who used you know security against is used them so I mean this committee or the religious leaders yeah we understand the kind of political class we have in Nigeria people who have no ideology people who have no agenda people who just want to rule us by force people who want to become leaders whether people like it or not unfortunately they are taking advantage of the poverty in the country they're taking advantage of the low education among many young people and giving them drugs and giving them money to go and burn and destroy homes just because they want to win election and that's why we feel strongly that there has been a shift because in the past they do those things because they will use it to rig election or use it to manipulate election to go and we are just believing that somehow we are making progress with the signing of a new electoral act but that's not enough we are talking about the country in general not just about election there is no peace in the east there is no peace in the west there is no peace in the north every day people are dying every day numbers have been thrown out there telling you the social number like yesterday in plateau state 80 people kill this is terrible and in Kaduna state it's like an everyday business you hear the one you hear and many have been just people just mourn in their home without necessary complaining so what we are saying today is that look there is a news there's a growing insecurity in the country that even the relative understanding we used to have during electoral time may not be possible come 2023 can we start doing something at this moment can we take steps that will stop and bring about sanity so that when we come people can come out to vote but when we don't do that people may likely not come out to vote because people must be alive before they vote all right interesting justify uh uh chiles or two um uh i don't know which other religions you belong to whether you're an atheist i mean that's that's your your your prerogative but but i do assume you've sat in in a location i'm assuming you've sat in a location where you've had vip's for instance governors or ministers and you've had um maybe a clergyman either an imam uh a shake or or some sort of uh uh priest is it is it is it are these religious leaders part of the problem why wait till some months before the election for things to get to this crescendo of insecurity before say these things for instance we talk about the volatile part of the north of the country the federal republic of nigeria mesa joseph uh chiles or two the northern part of the country northeast east northwest and north central predominantly muslim another volatile part of the country southeast predominantly christian you have catholics anglicans and then of course the pentecostal churches have our religious leaders spoken truth to power enough well thank you so much it doesn't appear like we echo you what of course i'm a christian and uh i'm happy this conversation is coming i'm not coming across um religious groups or divides it is no longer you know some people are trying to say oh that of pretend or sit on the fence about it uh it echoes what a a a a clergyman in the east temple of nigeria said that most times what pastors and other religious leaders including different fathers do in the in the country just like the imams uh which uh most are best awful sometimes you see them they just want to sit on the fence and be in the good book of the present government of the day without knowing that the treaty actually has a religious leader because these governors these uh senators the lawmakers and all sorts of people the politics come to them to pay obeisance and that is actually an opportunity to speak truth to power even in the state i practice which is uh christianity you you see people in the days of the old in the biblical examples where the leaders go to church and they were told this is how youtube acts and that has been lacking sincerely among our religious leaders on both divides both christians both the mojles and the traditionalists and the first of many of religions we've seen uh people get to power and they are just the church is the only interested in the politician completing a building project for the church and the church is short of for that same reason i will start an example in my state of erboying for instance erboying you'll find out that the kanche man is a member of the state executive council not just a member of the state executive council he is even the closest person to the governor of my state and you you still find out that look this man if we have been advised rightly it shouldn't be taking certain actions which means the priest is there another priest for instance who is a catholic priest who is dictating who is buta is detained or remanded in prison and the second priest who is the member of the escrow is not talking about or doing so much to cost about that can literally is released from a prison what are the issues the church depends largely on these political demagogues or these politicians to survive and because of it they are taking away the power to speak through to power to them you know from them and what that is taking away as has been the case in the last seven years you see this going as awful and early as it has gone and you see the church only lamenting and complaining some goes to send goes to the islamic religion of course you heard about the sheikh in abuja that was suspended what was described that he said look this is a security has got enough of hands people has to sit up to their responsibilities and take charge and they might was suspended from suspension he was fine so it is a proper course a religious device but if the leaders continues to wear these suits for religious leaders not just when the election is coming they come to bring them together to sign this pass and talk about how it is affecting the how it is going to affect the election what we are giving is justice to catch a regimen that makes it really make people think okay all this the breakers is towards the election so if you have an election what comes before what comes thereafter after an election so that has made it difficult the shash and the the islamic leaders the shash leaders and the islamic girls are like have not held the government reasonably accountable because they have the none of the leaders work away from the shash none of the leaders work away from the mosque be to the truth okay the highest that could happen the water from the islamic suspension that it becomes a norm that you cannot have a safe haven if you enter this shash you're going to hear the same truth the other this mosque you're going to hear the same truth you have no option that you need to take about how to redress your okay okay it's also too interesting i come back to you just have high about the christian association of nigeria you said him i've asked him a question are our religious leaders speaking truth to power he says point blank no um what do you think about this because all these politicians they attend church or they go to the mosque for their prayers you know they get laid hands they get the receive lane of hands some receive prophecies and anointing and i've said it before that never before i'm especially from the last administration into this one before in the history of nigeria has the church or the religious circles maybe even the mosque or islam had as much influence in in the polity it's never been as much as it is in these days across the country across the country i mean we can go back to liberation theologians propounded by the famous peruvian theologian of the dominican a priest of the dominican order Gustavo Gutierrez and we saw what he did for the people and how he spoke truth to power so what do you say to to your to charles or twos remark that our religious leaders have not spoken truth to power it's a pretty long question but i hope i i was able to pass well i think the recent developments have changed his thinking but that's the truth the truth is that we've not had enough religious leaders speaking to power we must honor to that because when you have a large part of religious leaders and you just have probably 10 or 20 speaking to power it's not enough uh some of us who do come out in this station you know that i've always been here i think this is the first time in the past six months that i'm even smiling every time i come on this media i am frowning and i'm angry because i've lost a loved one things are not going in right kaduna is on fire but you see just one voice speaking every day uh all the those in power will just attack you as an enemy or attack you give you some names so i quite agree with him that we've not really been doing enough many of my colleagues should wake up because if you allow just one person let's say an example when the imam came out and speak what was true many clerics are agreeing that what he said is true but how many of them have come publicly to agree even if they say they agree with him they're just saying that behind the scene why they don't want to come publicly and say we agree with him because they're thinking they're going to lose their friendship with those politicians but what that man have done is to set the pace and more clerics supposed to come out in support and condemnation of evil because how on earth will you be asking for election where we have almost a large number of people in the house of the bandits the bandits are even threatening the government of the federal republic of niteria are saying that look you know what we want we're not asking you for our money do what we want who are they our government should be strong enough to show them the might of government but because nothing is really happening so if you ask me to put the answer very simple not many clerics have actually been speaking truth to power okay but there are clerics who are speaking truth to power they have they have been called names they've either been tracked as uh supporting a particular political interest i want to encourage those few clerics that don't give up continue to speak truth to power i don't want to beat my chest and say whether i'm one but those who have been following me can tell yes yes we know we know about that especially those of those of you that are not enough about two weeks ago i watched something that quite was quite disturbing on one of the national television station clerics christian pastors people who dress you know to be honest we can't deal with our viewers here and sometimes people go to the market and buy certain regalia and dress and call themselves bishop and they were binding and losing and claiming that some people supposed to be precedent the fact that they are even saying that god those people are gift to nigeria as in nigeria i know the history behind those people i can't even understand you're calling them gift to nigeria well they've not been able to do anything in the state where they are governing but they've not been able to do anything where they are operating but you see this is the kind of system but here is the cross of the matter okay so much hunger in the land so people now hide on their religion wanting to get food that's why they cannot speak to that not many religious leaders have been speaking through the power but this effort by the sultan and the camp president must be commented because at least now the leaders are speaking so others should follow so that the voice will be added and when more people begin to speak then those who think that they will not be whole responsible know that we have working on from our slumber all right i want to thank you and you know for the good work you're doing and uh you've been you've been vocal uh but before i i i be round up uh just if i um apart from speaking truth to power we know the genesis of these conflicts in the country i do not know if we'll be talking about um uh uh you know this banditry if boko haram had not started like a joke that was treated with kids gloves in the time of uh uh chief o lucia govastro their leader was killed but these guys profess to be followers of islam you know and and i do not know if it's impossible for the islamic clerics led by the sultan with all respect to him to have along the line interface to make sure see what they can do we go down to the south and part of the country and we know what is happening the southeast of course we have the bf and agitation but we know how devout people from that part of the country are you know just to the christian faith would it not have been possible for the leaders of the christian faith and the the the jewish faith in nigeria to interface with the the the proponents and those who started these agitations because whether the gunmen are known or unknown it wouldn't have been this way or this bad if that agitation had not gone the way it did you know so so i don't know what you say after you have to say brother in just a sentence or two yeah the truth about probing proactive it may not be in the public domain but i'm fully aware of effort by certain bishops because they've not asked me to mention their names are none about series of meetings that they've been holding with the bf and youth groups that have been agitating this year last year the party boy that they even visited khanu in prison but maybe it's too maybe it's become too late when this thing started no no no this is not we're promoting it and defending it and encouraging cheering on the agitation in the southeast was wrongly managed by government when government supposed to initiate combat dialogue government thought that she could just crush them let's be honest to ourselves you see that's why one of the famous uh i've spoken senator of nigeria former senator said that when it comes to uh bandits of northern nigeria they are being treated with kid gloves when others act in the same way then they use big sticks and start pushing that let's call a spade a spade the problem in this is the poor approach to these people but if you think the religious leader have not spoken to them they are speaking to them and that's exactly one of the things that wumi went out to do from my conversation with him the only place i disagree with him was when he started coming publicly on media and was changing who they are to calling them another titan that was when he but i realized that he may have done that i'm sorry we do respect to him out of fear because they did admit that when they approach them the people were violence against them they even quoted all the various interview they've ever said on television we have to go and they were coming against us so they begin to speak nicely and mildly to win the support of the band but there are efforts going on it may not be in the public media because of certain reason but honestly speaking i know there are efforts all right thank you very much at child's or two i was going to come to you but i've been informed that we're out of time uh so i want to thank both of you for for your interesting contributions since he appreciated uh joseph harb is a chairman of the christian association of nigeria in kaduna state and child's or two is a political artist they've given us an interesting analysis of the issues at hand gentlemen thanks for your time thank you very much thank you for having us then thanks for staying with us we'll take a short break and when we return we discuss the possibilities of of zoning in the all progressives congress in river state of course and uh what's happening of 2020 governorship elections there stay with us