 Does Jesus really call his children to build an identity, a culture, or structures instead of only aligning ourselves with what he's already doing? We are honored to have Melvin Layman back with us for another episode. In the last one we did with him, we talked about community, and now we're moving into some other related issues such as culture. So Melvin, to begin, can you find culture? Yes. If you'll give me just a minute here, I did some work on culture over the past number of years, and here's a definition that I've used at various places. It didn't come from Webster's. I don't know that I can say that it's unique with me, but it's one I wrote myself. Culture is the aggregate heart expression of a community's love slash values. So their loves and their values. The aggregate heart expression of a community's love values that orders the affairs of daily life and defines a community's concept of meaning, personal significance, and identity. It's a big long statement there, but think of it this way. So it's my heart and its expression of its loves and its values, what I really love, what I really care about. And a community's aggregate expression of that is what speaks of what they think is important, meaning, personal significance, and identity. Culture feeds that and develops it. So that's the definition I use. So given that definition, what does the church have to do with culture, and what is the church's responsibility in relation to culture? Yes. That's a, I think, one of the more important questions to be asked in the 21st century. It feels as though we have gotten stuck on salvation issues. I shouldn't say stuck. We've emphasized them and have struggled like everything of knowing how to disciple people and how to bring them to maturity. That seems to be across Christianity a problem. Because I thought about that, it occurred to me that culture brings much more to us than what we think it does and what we've given it credit. So I remember when growing up, sitting in Sunday school classes and other places, or just in conversation, somebody would say, wow, that's just cultural. As if that doesn't matter, I've discovered that actually it's exactly the opposite. If something is cultural, that's the reason it matters. If something that we've adopted, we do, maybe we don't know why we do it, but it matters because it's cultural. Why do I say that? I thought, well, there must be a scriptural basis for this, if this is really true. This idea of the importance of culture. And I just would offer a few passages that are, I think, very, very important. What started me down this path was 1 Corinthians chapter 3. And if you'll remember the context there, there's Paul and there's Cephas and there's some Apollos and there's a little argument in the Corinthian church and Paul's trying to get them straight. And when he gets to chapter 3, the passage that we know the very best in there is the one that says there's no other foundation than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus. We know that very well, 1 Corinthians 3, verse 11. But the main point of the chapter is not actually that, because he goes on to say that, now since that's true, then every person needs to be very, very careful how they build on top of it. And I immediately say, huh, so the foundation of Christ, there's no argument, it has to be that foundation. Now Paul says, but no, wait a minute, be careful about how you build on top of it. Now it does seem as though he's talking personally, but I think it could be applied corporately. So how are we building on Christ? And he goes on to say, well, some build with, and he gives some materials, wood hay and stubble and others with durable material. And the fire would test this out, will actually see if it's a good building or not. And ends that little passage by saying that, well, you know, some people have their whole work wiped out, but they themselves will be saved, I suppose, because they build on the foundation, but it wasn't good stuff. It's a very fascinating passage. But I see Paul pointing in the direction of saying, okay, you've got the foundation of Christ and now you have the responsibility to build on it. And I'm loosely interpreting that or understanding it to, for culture to be at least a part of that. The buildup of the traditions, the values, the things that we care about the way we live, all of that I think is important pieces there. Another passage that is so clear, you could hardly miss it. So Matthew 13, what is commonly known as a parable of the sower, I like to call the parable the soils. Christians who are Bible readers know that passage well, the four soils and Jesus talking about them. The question I always ask in relationship to that parable is, okay, ladies and gentlemen, what do you have the most control over in the parable? You yourself. So the sower goes forth to sow, sows the seed. The variable throughout the entire parable is the soils. You change the soil, you change the productivity. My simple question is, what's the soil? I see the soil's culture. He goes on to give some examples of it, worry and this and that and the other thing and being taken up with the affairs of this world, he says, about one of the soils that, well, community can speak into that. Community culture actually can help to shape and form a young person who's growing up and older men, shape and form them, their mind and their thinking in relationship to these kinds of things. I'm firmly convinced we need to pay lots and lots of attention there. Your question here is church's responsibility in relationship to culture. Just think of the Sermon on the Mount and the ending passage again gives us a little hint here, chapter 7, 24 to 27 is one that says, look, if you're wise, you'll build on the rock. Doesn't say the rock Christ Jesus, but the literature there certainly points that you could think of it that way. So build on the rock while you're building what? A house and that house will stand. Sounds like 1 Corinthians 3 to me and then over here, if a foolish man, if he builds on, if he hears my sayings, Sermon on the Mount, and doesn't do them, he's like a builder who's building on the sand, and that house is going to go down when it comes under pressure. Okay, now think about that for a minute. If you had no other piece of the Bible except the Sermon on the Mount, did you heard that comment and then you'd say, well, what did he say? A group of people who goes back there and actually lets the sayings of Jesus affect there and I'm going to use the term culture because remember, that's their love values, the array of things that they've embraced is important. Just take a couple of examples. If you think about Jesus' comments on lust, when he says, look, if a man looks, it's not just a question of what you do, it's what you think, and a strong words there. Okay, if you step back from that and say, if that's true, then how should we order our lives? There's obvious things that a community would begin to adopt and think about if they're saying, okay, if Jesus said it, we should pay attention to it. And he uses it in terms of do them. Well, do what? Well, not to get into this lusting business and actually go the other direction on honoring women and caring for the abused and so forth and so on. So culture is affected if we actually take that to heart or one that maybe steps in our toes a bit. So Jesus said in this sermon of the mount, well, don't lay up treasures on earth or moth and rust have corrupt and about to say, well, what's the application? So what actually, how do we live? And I think as we wrestle with those kinds of passages, there's actually cultural norms grow up. Take a vehicle, for example. So a serious look at that question that Jesus lays out there, don't lay up treasures and so forth and so it means that I am at least going to ask the question. Well, how much money should I spend on a vehicle? I'm not here to set a number on that at all. But as I actually raise that question and then I go out and buy a vehicle, well, then my grandson comes along and he says, well, grandpa fill in the blank in some fashion, that decision I made to do that following the command of Jesus or the sayings of Jesus and trying to work that out has a cultural influence on the neck and by and by there begins to be this is kind of the normative thing that we do. I just don't make any apology for that at all. It's like from what I can tell, I hear the New Testament saying that the church has a responsibility to proactively create culture. And for whatever it's worth, my observation is far too many people spend too much time reacting to culture and don't bother to sit down and ask how am I going to build it and just asking. So what am I contributing? What do I mean? What am I contributing? What am I contributing to my community's understanding of, let's just insert a word, modesty? Not what's the role? What does our role book say? But what am I? How am I contributing to the definition that, let's say, of modesty? And you could use a whole lot of other terms as well. There it's a totally different set of questions than the legalistic questions that can ask culture has the option, the possibility of carrying values, traditions and practices forward in a non legalistic manner, we could make a role, for example, to say, well, we think this is what modesty is. But if, on the other hand, we as a culture work hard as a group of people, we work hard at living it out. And a young lady growing up or a young man growing up sees the cultural norms, they have a different framework than just a legalistic framework that says, here's the role. Please do it. Rather, it sees the loves and the values of a generation being carried forward by a group of people. And to me, that's a very different thing. It's what's giving me a little bit of hope on this legalistic issue that maybe if we paid more attention to culture and worked hard at it, we could avoid some of our, I don't know, our, we feel like we have to fall back on some kind of a role to solve a problem. So on a previous episode that you recorded with us several years ago, we were talking about an article you wrote a while back called The New Conservatives. And that video is still on YouTube or on the podcast if somebody wants to go listen to it. In the YouTube comments, somebody named Michael left a comment that I think connects with this conversation. And I would be interested in hearing your response to it. It's a bit of a lengthy comment, but I will read the whole thing. Michael says, I heard three phrases here in that immediately grabbed my attention. Creating an identity, structures that move things forward and building a culture. I have an interest in all of these, although not without serious concerns as to the author's actual meaning of them. I and others would likely love some clarification on these three points if that is possible at some point in the future. I have one primary concern. There are many things that we all could do to create community environment in the places where we live. That said, even if we were to follow precisely the scriptural record in Toto, our very practices could still be found to be devoid of life. The life of Jesus Christ among us. Does Jesus really call us as His children to build anything? An identity, a structure, or a culture, or rather just simply align ourselves with what He has already promised us He would build in and through His ecclesia. Remember this. The reason we have all the religious sectarianism today is a direct result of man attempting to build things for God. Sadly, those identities do not solely resemble or identify with Jesus Christ exclusively, but also with earthly structures that men have often incorporated, joined with earthly governments, named and even controlled themselves by various means. Let's not forget that this includes those under the banner of Anabaptists, and more specifically, Amish and Mennonites among others. This is better referred to as a divided allegiance, where our creations compete directly for the souls of men, their resources, and influence in society. There most certainly can be dangers that coincide with change, just as there are things we must relinquish in order to move forward. So Michael puts some words to concerns that I have, at times, also had. And I've often heard shared by others within our circles, both old and young, but maybe especially young. So I'm curious if you can respond to Michael, especially his question, does Jesus really call us as His children to build anything? An identity, a structure, or a culture, or rather, to simply align ourselves with what He has already promised us He would build in and through His emplicea. Yeah, that's an interesting perspective there. I certainly don't think that Jesus has forbidden us to build culture. I've already referenced the Sermon on the Mount and pointed out that you could hardly think of reading the Sermon on the Mount. And of then, as he says, at the end of the Sermon, we'll do these things without asking the question, well, what shall we do? How do we actually live this out? And so it would seem to me as though Jesus infers that he's going to build his church. And in fact, he says that quite directly. I personally then look to the epistles to see how that actually is going to be worked out. The shorter version of what I'm saying. So Jesus certainly does not forbid us to live and love and serve and build and says He's gonna build His church. I think it's left to the epistles to help us to have an understanding of what that's going to look like. If I could, I would just jump to His other question here that I think is related. He says that the reason we have all the religious sectarianism today is a direct result of men attempting to build things for God. I would question that assertion. I don't know that I would blame it on attempts to work out our soul salvation under the leadership of Christ and living it out in church life and so forth and so on. I think the lifeless church today is more associated with a hands-off approach. Just let everybody do what they feel like doing. I don't know that we should fight back tooth and claw against what's being called sectarianism here so much as how to learn from each other who do some things differently. I want to affirm, these are good questions. I don't think they're, I think they're good questions. I think they need to be asked. I want to be sure that it's understood. I don't want to just offhand dismiss the problem of sectarianism. That's not my point. We need to work hard at finding commonality with each other across the spectrum of Christianity. Would you say that building a culture is inevitable when you have Christians together who share a vision or a goal, working in cooperation, whatever that church may be, it's inevitable that a culture will form. So the responsibility is to think about how we do that well in a way that's honoring to God and lining up with his expectations for his church and being intentional about that. You hit the nail in the head. You hit the nail in the head. It's going to happen anyway. Don't let it just happen, create it. Thank you for joining us for this episode. We invite you to join our monthly partner program. Monthly partners are key to the financial sustainability of Anabaptist's perspectives. Partners also gain access to bonus content, including our exclusive podcast where we respond to audience questions and comments. Sign up at anabaptistperspectives.org.