 Mukhi Kuwaja is joining us today from Fundraising Academy. Let me go ahead and do my housekeeping Mukhi so we get situated. Again, we want to thank our presenting sponsors who join us today, Blumerang, American Non-Profit Academy, your part-time controller, non-profit thought leader, Fundraising Academy at National University, Staffing Boutique, Non-Profit Nerd, and Non-Profit Tech Talk. These are the folks that join us. As we try and answer your questions and get some conversation rolling, another thing that we've done that's really cool is the team at American Non-Profit Academy has created the super sexy app. Download the app. You can just shoot a quick picture of this QR code and we'll just let you know with a real soft ting-bing-zing when the current show for the day is uploaded. And our team turns it around super fast. So you'll know when the today shows up. You can check out the archives. You can search. It's a wonderful app, but you can also find this on streaming on all of the broadcast platforms that we're on as well as podcasts. If you like to consume audio only when you're getting yourself going, check out the non-profit show. We will be in your ears as we like to say, okay, Mukhi. This is a really interesting question. And I want to spend a little bit more time on this question because I think this is one of those things that we talk about, but we don't really talk about. So the question, I took off the person's name and added name withheld. And the question is, Mukhi, I was recently asked about my faith by a donor. I work for a faith-based organization. However, I do not belong to the church that founded the non-profit. I was uncomfortable about the interaction and need some advice for future interactions so I don't ruin a relationship. So first and foremost, if you could talk about how you are the co-founder of the American Muslim Community Foundation because I think you're in this space and I'm so fascinated to hear what you have to say and I'm going to stop talking. Yeah, definitely. I really enjoy this question and appreciate it as well. You know, I'm currently job searching so I come across a lot of organizations that may be faith-based and I think to myself, would I be comfortable working there? And so this is very timely for me as well. And I think that it really depends on how mission-centric the faith aspect is to the organization. You know, if they're doing some water well project and sanitation and things like that and developing countries and it's a fantastic mission and you yourself, you know, maybe don't spread to the faith but you really connect with the mission and the impact that's being created. I think it's okay to still work for an organization in that regard. You know, everybody has their own set of ethics, morals, values that they aspire to and whether there's somebody of faith or somebody who is agnostic or atheist, whatever their belief system is, I don't think that it needs to get in between the work, right? So it's interesting that the donor asks about their faith and maybe they just want to have a curiosity or understanding around this fundraiser's connection through the work. But I think if the donor focuses on the mission rather than their faith or maybe how their faith informs their connection to the mission, I think there are multiple ways that the employee can kind of skirt around it, maybe in a more politically correct way, but it is an interesting question that the donor brings up. And we've hired people at AMC, if we're not Muslim, because we're hiring for skillset, right? So, you know, I think at the same time, faith isn't always the biggest identifier but can play a significant role. You know, my answer to this is that I'm an atheist but I believe in the value of humanity, right? So, my sense of it is doing well and achieving mission, for me, is not a faith issue, it's like the faith of humanity or the faith in doing right by myself and my people and my planet. Does that make sense? You know, and I think we get tripped up on some of these labels, but I feel for this person because I'll drill down a little bit. This person is a person of color, brown skin, working in a predominantly southern Baptist environment and, you know, I think physically looks different and then to get asked that question threw him for a loop and he had to pivot, he had to address the person, but then he had to do his job and raise money. Brutal. I mean, and I feel for him being a young man, I think he's going to have this question more, right? So, I think he, I think it's just a really interesting thing but I think you need to have, I think you need to have an answer, you need to be able to say to your, it's the organization's doing amazing work. No matter what my faith construct is, you know. Yeah. And there are other identifiers like race and gender and other things that there's organizations that are, you know, like girls for tech or something like that. And I'm almost telling myself like, I'd rather not take up space as a fundraiser in those organizations because I want a woman to feel empowered to have that role because they can speak to it better than I could, right? Yeah. I love that you said that because that's the perfect example. It's not just, it's an umbrella concept to this. Yeah. I love that you said that, you know, these questions come up and sometimes I think it's even, and before we move on to the next question, sometimes I think it's even more frightening when they don't come up, when they're just held silently and people are just thinking it or exhibiting, you know, their bias or their prejudice versus giving voice to it. And I don't know what you think about that. I mean, are we trying to be polite and not say anything or are we addressing it? You know? I mean, I don't know what you think. Would you rather have somebody ask you personally about your faith and how you approached the nonprofit sector or not? Yeah. I mean, I would feel, I don't know if I'd feel uncomfortable if they asked about it. I would probably pause and reflect on how I would answer and say, tell them, you know, that's a really great question. I'm glad that you brought that up and then kind of, you know, pivot as you're saying. But I think that as, I think it comes with the territory as well. So for it being a faith-based organization, I see that it's not out of the question that somebody would ask that. But yeah, it's interesting. It is interesting. And you know, I feel like, yeah, I just feel like, especially in our country, in the U.S., there's such a history of faith-based nonprofits. No matter what they do and who they serve, it's just a foundational piece, right? You know, from, I mean, all different types of faith. And my view of it is for the majority of these organizations, they're not just tending their own flock. They're tending humanity. They're tending maybe their neighborhood or their region or their topic. But they're not like opening the door, looking through and saying, you know, are you Methodist? Because if you're not, we can't help you, right? Does that make sense? Yeah. And I think where the lines may get blurred is some humanitarian organizations may be proselytizing, right? So in other countries, that may be missionary based, it may be other factors. So I myself wouldn't work for an organization like that. But if it's, again, tied to the humanitarian mission of it, sure. So there's a fine line there. And I love that you brought that up because you're absolutely right. And I think that's, again, maybe that's another thing to weave into that conversation to say, you know, yeah, this might be, we might be a faith-based foundation or origin story or, you know, whatever, but we're not trying to change hearts and minds. We're trying to provide service to really be specific about if that indeed is the case, you know. But yeah, I love this question. I swear, Moohi, in my next life, I'm going to be a philosophy major because I love all things in discussion of faith and religion and philosophy. I really do. I'm just riveted by it. So thank you for exploring that with me. Okay. We have Devon from Fayetteville that wrote in, what is the average number of donors that a fundraiser should have in their portfolio? And should this number be larger for more seasoned fundraisers or smaller? What an interesting question. We don't seem to have the same numbers of donors across our team. Yeah, I really like this question. And I feel like this comes up quite regularly for organizations and, you know, part of it, I would say depends on the number of staff in your development team. Okay. And also the dynamic. Is this a major gift portfolio? Is this an annual fund portfolio? What are the metrics associated? Are you supposed to be having phone calls and conversations and meetings or is it just touch points through the year that are more letters and emails? What's the strategy around it? I know at American Red Cross, when it was more annual fund related, there could be like 1,000 to 5,000 people in the portfolio because they're not expected to have meetings. And it was just touch points, right? Sending direct mail, sending emails, and they were still mail merged. So it was individualized and it wasn't cookie cutter, but it was mass communication. But then for a major gift portfolio, when I started there, the portfolio sizes were about 250. And over time, it was just realized I was too big. It came down to between 125 and 150. And what I've even seen some other organizations do with that is you have like a prime category of like 75. And then you have like an additional category of 50 to another 75. So the ones that are the most responsive, the most that are receptive to meetings, that's going to be your prime category. But then the ones that are just like, no, don't need me, but we'll continue to give people in the loop, that's your second category. So my preference is that 25 portfolios, sweets, it's manageable to even do those individually, outreach, and fully see personalized and thought on what can you have to think like you're prospecting, you're doing the research on all of those people. So it's going to take some time, but then it's also revolving door. So for those that are less responsive, maybe you add in some new products. And it's just cyclical at that point. So you try to keep that core of 75 to 100 of people that you know are giving annually. Because maybe for those that are left, you have a left strategy for your portfolio, right? I can geek out about this and go on and on, but I'll stop there. No, you know what? I absolutely love your approach. And I got to say, we do get this question a lot in some form or fashion, right? And I always think that these people are looking for that number. Is it 125? Is it 25? Is it 2000? And what I just heard you say, and I don't think anyone else has ever really answered this question this way, which is magical on your part, is that it's tears and it's degrees. So don't get caught up in that number. Maybe get more caught up in drawing attention to what tear that is or tears my word. But like you said, segment, so that you can understand what you're working with and knowing that it's a living, breathing thing, that it's going to change. Right? I mean, it's not going to be the same 2,525 250 people. I mean, is that, don't you think that's fair to say? Definitely. It's going to keep rotating based on the donor's engagement. Right? So you want to make sure that you're touching base with them on say a quarterly basis. But then from there, it will continue to narrow down to these are the people who are willing to meet with you. They're coming to events. There's some sort of mission engagement. Maybe you send them a beneficiary video and they responded to that. So again, these types of things that are interactive touch points that will bring them closer to your mission. Those are the people that you want in your portfolio. Right. Mui, before we go on to the next question, this question just popped up in my mind. And that is, let's say, you know, you're Mui Kuaja and you understand this concept and you've got your portfolio and you're structured this and you're working it this way. But the officer, development officer three cubicles down or in another region or whatever is doing it differently. Does that happen? Or should everybody be on the same page or how do we look at those ecosystems within each officer? Yeah, I think this is great when you have a team of development staff, right? Everybody's going to be unique in their own personality. What works to them, what their strengths are. And we had people who were totally comfortable with cold calling, with doing all of that outreach. And we had others that were a little more comprehensive on the strategy of engagement and first touch points and building a relationship with authenticity, right? So I think it's great when you have teams or even colleagues across the industry, right? If you're an AFP mentor and you have a mentee and you can help bring your experience to somebody else. There's different touch points and things that I learned from my colleagues that I necessarily wasn't doing but were effective strategies of touch points that I didn't consider on my own. So I think it's great to talk shop and brainstorm with other people and see what works for them. So what I hear you saying before we move on, there's not like one way. It's got to be, you've got to figure out what's going to work and then keep testing it and sharing those pieces to see, you know, yeah, if you can grow and build it. It's very interesting. And Devin, I hope this helps. I think you're probably looking for a number and we didn't give you a number. We gave you a theory, but I think the theory is better than an actual number. I mean, yeah. 125 is a good place to start. Yeah. Okay, I love it. So we did both here today on the nonprofit show. We gave you a starting point, but then we gave you, we sprinkled in some more information that might help, I think, build your impact and that's always a good thing. Okay, let's go to, I would say, a hot and steamy community right now in America, although everything's hot and steamy. Jade from Atlanta. If we're looking at our donor database and trying to reconnect with a lapsed donor, how far back should we go? Not everyone on our fundraising team agrees with the number of years. Another hard stop number. This is interesting, isn't it? Definitely interesting. And I think that, I think minimum, you should go back three years. Okay. My preference is five or as far back as you can go. Right? As long as somebody's not dead and as long as somebody's not kind of fall out with the organization for some reason, I would dig as far back as possible. Good. Because why? Once they loved you, they can love you again? Exactly, yeah. Who knows why they stopped giving? Maybe they moved and you never got their new address or they changed their email address. I'm always curious about this and I think that curiosity has always paid off. There have been times, yeah, where it was a former disgruntled partner of an employee or, you know, but that's few and far in between. I think that in general, your donors will be happy to hear from you. They will be intrigued as well as to what your organization's been up to since they last gave. You have to think from a mindset of abundance rather than a mindset of scarcity. Yeah. I love that you said that right, that if you start with that point, then you're going to be, you know, everybody's going to be happy. I think of the great Terry Axelrod, who started raising more money and now it's called Ben Avon, but she always spoke of bless and release. And that means, you know, engage with folks, see what were, you know, what might have changed, right? And then bless and release, say, yeah, okay, well, thank you. And you were a great part of our success to this point. And we wish you well. And, you know, you know where we are. Find us if you want to come back. But to let that go and move on in a positive, dignified way, right? So there's not a unhappiness because there are unhappy things that occur. You know, donors maybe disagree with the way an organization is going. Maybe their personal circumstances change. Maybe they find a new passion because of something that impacts their lives. I think, Mukhi, we see this a lot with health care and disease and especially grandchildren. You know, I know of big donors that were like big into arts and culture and then something befalls tragically a child or grandchild. And then they're like, I'm diverting my attention and my resources to this issue. I mean, I think that happens and I think we need to respect that and navigate that, you know. So really interesting. Okay, well, you got time for one more, huh? Ready? Let's do it. Okay. Let's see what we got here. Name with health. Okay, woohoo. You know how I love these. I'm feeling a bit concerned that I might be approaching burnout this person writes. How should I express this concern with my CEO and ask for time off or support? Well, I want to be honest with leadership. I don't want to appear weak or like I am jumping ship during tough times. That kind of breaks my heart. I think this person got too far along before they even asked this question. That's my, I don't know them, but I feel like they might have gone too far down. Yeah, and it's hard to notice when that begins to happen, right? Like people who are workaholics just are always saying yes and yes and yes. And then like it slowly becomes too much where you're like, whoa, that I'm feeling burned out. And it's like, what are the signs along the way to prevent it? You know, it may be that first time where you say no to hanging out with a group of friends and you're working through the evening, right? And that's an indicator. Otherwise there's other ways to kind of pick up on it like your sense of happiness. Like is it going to, are you going to feel bummed out when you're doing having another project at work, right? You're not excited about it. That enthusiasm. I think that asking for time off, you should never feel guilty or bad about that. You need to do what you need to do to recuperate. Hey, I've been on like a sabbatical working part-time for the last year and a half and it's been great. You know, I was fortunate enough to do a lot of travel in this time. But it was a stark reality that I had to face in terms of self-care. And I went through divorce. I was over-employed, wasn't happy with work as well and just so many life changes. And we decided to quit without really having a plan. That's a big risk then that everybody's willing to take. A few months later, I landed at National University and fundraising Academy and been so blessed. So, you know, yeah, be honest with leadership. Don't think it will make you look weak. If that's the organizational culture there, then yeah, jump to it. There's nothing wrong with that. The right organization, the right leadership will understand and support you and be there by your side. But a lot of the time, we are just often another number in the system and we can be replaced. So that's the thing that you need to balance and showcase that, you know, I need this time off. I'm going to come back stronger, more motivated, more excited and cash out your PT. That's what it's there for. I love that. You know, I appreciate that and I appreciate your authenticity in sharing that. I didn't know that about you. I mean, obviously, like I tease you about being the new Carmen San Diego, but because you're always going, you're always somewhere and that's super cool. And I didn't know about your journey in that respect. And we don't have much time, but I've got to ask you this question. Do you feel that this time has off, or I don't say time off but this time change? Do you think that this has educated or emboldened or refreshed you or just shifted your mindset or everything? I mean, what's the impact? It's a combination of everything you just said. I think primarily it's a mindset shift for focusing on life more than work and prioritizing that. My mantra is there was always work that can be done tomorrow. If it's five o'clock, it's five o'clock. I'm going to get back to it at nine a.m. Yeah. That's interesting because I would say working with you, I don't see that. I feel like when I send you an email, you're like right on it. And sometimes I realize, oh my god, he's in Asia. I'm not going to hear back, but it always seems like maybe it's just automated responses. I don't think so. But I mean, yeah, so that's cool. That's interesting. Well, it's always lovely to spend time with you and to get your perspective. I love what you do and I love your spirit with which you serve and how you work. I always learn things from you. And so for me, that's just a joy. Mohi Kuwaja, trainer with Fundraising Academy, co-founder of the American Muslim Community Foundation. And he's coming to us today from New York. And we are so, so delighted that you would join us. Again, we have amazing partners and they are on this journey with us just like Mohi is on this journey with us. And our sponsors include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Your Part-Time Controller, Nonprofit Thought Leader, Fundraising Academy at National University, Staffing Boutique, Nerd and Nonprofit Tech Talk. These are the folks that join us day in and day out on our March to 900 episodes which we will get to very shortly which is shocking. Shocking, I tell you. Shocking. I don't even have 900 of anything in my life. So, 900 episodes is pretty crazy. Hey, Mohi, I hope you have a fabulous weekend. I can't wait to find out where we connect with you next. It's going to be a lot of fun. It always is. And as we end every episode of the Nonprofit Show, we want to remind ourselves our viewers, our listeners, our guests to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here for another episode of the Nonprofit Show. Thank you, Mohi.