 I'm Scott Rouse. I'm a Body Language Expert and Analyst. I train law enforcement, the military, and interrogation in body language. I created the number one online body language course, Body Language Tactics with Greg Hartley. Mark. I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. I help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, gain credibility every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7. Chase. Hey, I'm Chase Hughes. I did 20 years in the U.S. military, wrote the number one best book on behavior profiling, persuasion, and influence, and I teach those things to businesses and people. Greg. I'm Greg Hartley. I'm a former Army Interrogator, Interrogation Instructor, Resistance to Interrogation Instructor. I've written 10 books on body language and behavior, put together this number one Body Language Tactics dot com course with Scott Rouse, and I spend most of my time on Wall Street or Corporate America. All right. Well, now we're going to talk about Aaron Rodgers, football player. I wish I knew more about you. I just learned that. Well, I knew it from the video. I saw his stuff. So that's who we're going to talk about it. He's, he didn't get vaccinated, but he told everybody he had been vaccinated or immunized. He didn't say vaccinated. So Greg, you found the video. Why don't you tell us about it? Yeah. So this one was back in August. He was being poked and they were asking him whether he had a shot and he said, I've been immunized. And so that went on and on and so we're just going to talk about that. It's a very short video. It just gives us a chance for an interviewer who's asking him questions, how he responds, what does his body language say? That's it. Very short. All right. Here we go. Are you vaccinated and what's your stance on vaccinations? Yeah, I've been immunized. You know, there's a lot of, a lot of conversation around it, around the league and a lot of guys who have made statements and I made statements. Owners who made statements. You know, there's guys on the team that haven't been vaccinated. I think it's a personal decision. I'm not going to judge those guys. All right. Mark, what do you got? Oh, you got to, Oh, I'm glad you saw that. Thanks. Remember that time we did half an episode when it was on that thing? Oh, God, yeah. When we did with an episode without recording, that was the point. Without recording it. Okay. It's our job to help watch. Isn't that your worst of all? That's true. And then we pretend I'm coming back. You ready, Mark? Here we go. Yeah. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So I would say lying is for the lazy because if you're going to go down that route, you got to be lazy enough to think that the journalists don't work with deception the way you work with a ball. Like they're often as good around deception as you are at whatever your job is, whatever sport you have. And that means that they're tactical. And that means you might think you've got away with some deception, but they're just holding back and they know what you've done and they're going to wait and wait and wait as long as they like to release that this was a lie. This was deception. Here's what I am. We'll come to more to that in a moment, but here's what I love about the nonverbal here is that beautiful moment of he's got those that make statements, those that don't make statements. I'm probably going to a different side here. So you work it out in your head, but he's got one clear side for those that make statements, those that don't make statements. A clear side for those that seem to be vaccinated and those that don't. So there's this side and that side. But what happens when it comes to this idea of vaccination or immunization is it starts to get muddled. And so that for me, it muddles around those that have and have not those that do and those that don't. It's muddled enough that I go, that doesn't really follow the pattern. I think you've set up or you don't go into it as you don't commit to it like you committed to it before. That rings alarm bells for me and that I think this is getting muddled. And instantly I think in my mind, I've never seen this before, I went, well, vaccination does not equal immunization. They are not the same thing. And you seem to be physically representing to me that it's a slightly muddled situation. If I were the interviewer there, I would jump on that and I would go, hang on, but immunization, what do you mean? What do you mean by immunization? Or I might let you talk even more around that. I might not even question you around that because it's more valuable for me to hold that idea and bring it up later on or hold it over your head for years to come. You've got to understand that's the business of some, but not all media. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, so he starts off and he does this, yes, I've been immunized. Watch him when he does. Let me back up and say you can be truthful without being honest. That's one of the businesses that we're in is determining honesty to answer the spirit of the question versus, which is why we're very pointed with questions when we're interrogating. We want to ask exactly what we want to know. Now, you can't do that. You can't handcuff the guy to a chair and ask him questions. So they're asking with an intent and he responds and I love this. He says immunized and look at his eyes kind of bat around a little bit. He does lip compression with held information or whatever you want to call that, but with held information is about as good. And then he breaks eye contact down into the right, like, okay, 1,001, 1,002, 1,003. He's waiting for that second question. You can see it. You can. What does that mean? He's waiting for it, Mark. When they don't, he goes to chaff and redirect and he runs with the ball and he takes off. He makes a run for it using a little bit of a sports metaphor as poorly as I do that, but he takes it and he runs with it and he's thinking they'll stop him and they don't. And he does a little bit of that, a little bit of this, a little bit of that, a little bit of this. And then when he goes to the guys on the team have not been, there are guys on the team who have not been vaccinated. His brow rises a little bit with request for approval. He cuts his eyes and when he breaks his eye contact, when he says, I don't personally judge them, he breaks eye contact in the opposite direction of the time he's done everything else. So if I were interviewing him and I were the guy to say, well, hold on, what does that mean to you immunized? I just want to know, you know, play the Colombo role there instead of the other way. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I think that we all saw the old QB sneak routine. Exactly. Yeah. As much as I remember about that. I guess so. While you're rewatching this video after we're done talking here, I want you to look, there's an immediate postural retreat away from the camera, away from the interviewers. He lowers his head to cover his neck. Anytime the body is protecting arteries, that should be something you pay attention to, whether you're in sales, you're interviewing somebody for a job, that's an important data point. And he says, yeah, I've been immunized. He chooses a different word than vaccine. He looks away immediately, and he performs something that's called the trans derivational search, which is where the eyes are very rapidly moving in different directions. It's like sending your file clerk to go find as many data points as possible. And his lips pull back to one side with a head shake. And I think this is disagreement. And I think it's also regret for having just said that statement. And he's got it. He's got like, well, I'm committed to that now. And this whole message is about selling or adding uncertainty to the situation. A lot of conversations around it. He's saying around the whole league, some made statements, some didn't make statements. That's literally everybody. Then there's owners who have made statements. There's guys on the team who have not been vaccinated. Now he's using the word vaccinated instead of immunized, which proves to me as an interviewer that he's well aware of the word and he knows the proper usage of the word. And when he's pulling in air into one side of the mouth, I think this is an unconscious behavior of concealment. And he's saying there's no judgment at all. What he's doing is offering to us how we should feel about people who are not vaccinated because that's how he sees people who are not vaccinated. Scott. Excellent. That's really good. All right. Well, like right from the top now, even though I don't know much about football, I watched some interviews with this guy and his voice tone is cadence. This is totally out of character with this guy. This is not in his baseline. His voice is lower. He's talking lower. And he's speaking actually a little bit faster the way he usually talks. Definitely not as strong. Now it's easy to sit in here and go, oh, because we know this guy's lying. We know for a fact he's lying about it because he got busted. So it's easy for us to sit here and go, oh, here's what I'm seeing. So he's lying. But what we're doing here is we're showing you the things that's the same thing. A lot of things are the same things that people who are telling the truth do, but we're showing the things that pop up. In other words, almost every time someone lies, although there are no absolutes, they're just because you do this or you do this too quick or you do something with your nose. It doesn't mean you're lying. It doesn't mean you tell the truth. There are no absolutes. But just so you know, we know the guy's already busted. And we're just pointing out the things to you to look for that we see most often in people who aren't being honest. We go through and show all the things where he was being honest, but we're showing the red flags of dishonesty. Now those things all start with discomfort. Now to grab a Joan of Aro phrase, when he pulls his mouth over here to the, I think it's his left or anyway, it's his right. His lip goes sideways. Anyway, that indicates there's a, what does Joe always says, that indicates that there's an issue there. That's what he always says. So we know something's up. And after he says, he has been immunized, that bottom T-shell of it, his chin juts out, which denotes it indicates that he's, that subject probably angers him. He's not comfortable talking about that subject. Then we see him rocking back and forth. There's these answering questions. He's tried to distance himself from what's, I think what has just happened and just make a lot more room. And like Greg said, chaff and redirect, man, there's chaff everywhere. But I don't think he's redirecting very well. He just was mostly just chaff, you know. So that's what we're seeing. Everything he says and does, he's trying to distance himself from that, from the word immunization all the way down to his moving around. And we're seeing these things that make him uncomfortable. Chase, he nailed it when he says, finally says vaccine. And he said, he talks about the other people that have been vaccinated, how he doesn't hold it against him. See, that's not cool, man. You shouldn't be, if he hadn't said that, I'd have been okay with him. But when he's thrown people out of the bus, when he's done it, when he hasn't done it himself, that's not, that's not cool. And I don't think it's cool with football players. I don't know what the story is over there. But I would be, I'd be bent out of shape. The thing that did surprise me was, as he started asking the question about being vaccinated, he started shaking his head, yes, a little bit. So he was ready for this. And he knew ahead of time that he was going to deny that he, that he hasn't been vaccinated. He was going to say he had been immunized. I realized I'm in the crosshairs of the woke mob right now. So before my final nail gets put in my cancel culture casket, I think I'd like to set the record straight on so many of the blatant lies that are out there about myself right now. And I appreciate the opportunity to tell my side of the story on here. First of all, I didn't lie in the initial press conference. During that time, it was a very witch hunt that was going on across the league where everybody in the media was so concerned about who was vaccinated and who wasn't and what that meant and who was being selfish and who would talk about it. And what it meant if they said it's a personal decision, they shouldn't have to disclose their own medical information and whatnot. And at the time, my plan was to say that I've been immunized. It wasn't some sort of ruse or lie. It was the truth. And I'll get into the whole immunization in a second, but had there been a follow up to my statement that I've been immunized, I would have responded with this, I would have said, look, I'm not, you know, some sort of anti-vax flat earther. I am somebody who's a critical thinker. You guys know me, I march to the beat of my own drum. I believe strongly in bodily autonomy and the ability to make choices for your body, not to have to acquiesce to some woke culture or crazed, you know, group of individuals who say you have to do something. Health is not a one size fits all for everybody. And for me, it involved a lot of study in the off season, much like the study I put into hosting jeopardy or the weekly study I put in the plan in the game. I put a lot of time and energy and research and met with a lot of different people in medical field to get the most information about the vaccines before making the decision. And in actuality, it was pretty easy in the beginning to eliminate two of them. And it didn't involve going into the questionable history of some of their criminal activities and fraud cases or any of that stuff. It was simply the fact that I have an allergy to an ingredient that's in the mRNA vaccines. So on the CDC's own website, it says, should you have an allergy to any of the ingredients, you should not get one of the mRNA vaccines. So those two are out already. So my only option was Johnson and Johnson. At this time, in the early spring, I had heard of multiple people who had had adverse events around getting the J&J. Nothing that was no deaths or anything, but just some really difficult times and physical abnormalities around the J&J shot. And then in mid-April, the J&J shot got pulled for clotting issues, if you remember that, right? So the J&J shot was not even an option at that point. So then my options became, okay, what can I do to protect myself and my teammates if there's not one of the big three options for me in my own body? And so I looked into and talked again to a lot of medical individuals and professionals and found that there was an immunization protocol that I could go to to best protect myself and my teammates. And it was a long-term protocol that involved multiple months. And I'm very proud of the research that went into that and the individuals that I met with and we thought like it was what was best for me. It was not, again, something that the league didn't know about. The league was fully aware of it upon my return to the Packers. And it was at that point that I petitioned them to accept my immunization status as under their vaccination protocol. Now, at the time, they had only had the big three was what they're going to do. And if you weren't in the vaccinated category, you were in a different category, which involved some draconian measures and protocols that you would have to adhere to, which it might have been when I based on science and were more based in a shame-based environment to try and get as many guys to get vaccinated as possible so that the league looks better to the rest of the world. That was the focus of these protocols, which I'll get into when I finish this dive drive here about the petition. So I petitioned the league. Initially, they returned and said, no, you'll be in an unvaccinated category. And I also said, how come there's no exemptions for medical exemptions, religious exemptions for existing conditions? And they basically said, look, those are all basically exempted, but you would be put in the non-vaccinated category. I'll get into what that meant from a scheduling standpoint shortly, but there wasn't any way of getting around that in their mind. So after they came back and said, no, you're unvacced, I said, okay, I'm going to appeal this. And so we went through the process, which was a multi-week process where I asked them for time to gather information. I gathered over 500 pages of research on the efficacy of immunizations, all the latest research surrounding my case, everything from mask wearing to the efficacy of the vaccines and the duration of the antibodies, just all the latest research that I was getting from my medical team. And in that process, we had many conversations. I enjoyed the conversations in the league. It was it was good sharing. But one in particular stood out when I knew I was not going to win this. I had a meeting and they said, one of the main docs said, it's impossible for a vaccinated person to get COVID or spread COVID. And at that point, I knew that, you know, I was definitely not going to win the appeal. And it was it was very shortly thereafter that denied, which we know now that's that information is totally false. All right, Greg, you want to go first? Sure. I don't have a whole lot. This is pretty easy to follow. Number one, let's first say this whole vaccine thing is one of the most divisive issues in America today, because it's been politicized by both sides. And so I'll leave it at that in terms of the vaccine itself. But if you watch him up to 17 seconds in the video that goes for a long time, you get a baseline of not prepared statement. That's him talking. Then he goes to his notes and you'll see him look down left. And a lot of people will automatically think we're going to say that's inner voice. It isn't. It's looking at key points that he wants to cover. He has a pen in his right hand. And, you know, that's just because he's been making notes and he's tracking. He's on a show that's friendly to his discussion. I think the show is Pat McAfee or something on ESPN. And he's talking to people that know him and they want to hear his thoughts. So he rambles and says what he thinks. When he moves to the notes, he says something about I want to cover any lies, lies, short eye. Then he says, I didn't lie. And his hand goes emphatic. I didn't lie. You know, look, I'm here. I'm messing up here. But when he says lie, there's hidden information. Remember, I always say that cadence matters. And when I stretch out that vowel, that means something. And what he's saying is I didn't exactly lie. He's saying, yeah, I might have been deceptive, but I didn't lie. When he does that, it is a contracted denial, which is good. There's an emphatic gesture with his palm up. And then he starts to talk and you see a barrier and an adapter come up as he starts talking about because he knows people are saying you're a liar, you did this, you did this, you did this. Then he this is starting to show why he looked anxious in the other video because he knew there was a second question and he had a prepared statement for the second question. It just never came up. And he even says, had there been a follow up to my statement, lip compression, I would have responded. And so you can see that discomfort. I don't think he thinks he's lying. I think he's not being factual. And he thinks his beliefs are different. He's justified. And that's what we're seeing as he goes then into messaging about the research he did and looking into it. All that looks real. I mean, all that looks genuine. His illustrators meaning when we punctuate our thoughts with our body or all on time, his speech patterns are all good. You'll hear somebody say, why does he do that when he touches his nose or he touches his face that's being deceptive. I don't think so. I think it's when he's thinking. I actually, this is a, I had an ex-wife only have one been an ex-wife when she would think she would press her nose that same way, which is interesting. I've never seen it again since, but know that that's something somebody will do when they're thinking, touching your face, doing those things. As he goes through that, he gets to the vaccination. You see a little bit of a smug face when he uses a word and that's it. I think what we're seeing is just him delivering a message. He needs to deliver to explain his logic when he was doing the denial. And I think he's actually surprised he got away with saying, I'm immunized. And that was that. And so he's now talking about this. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I like to say when on the t-shirt, because I said when about three minutes in, I was like, yeah, I've had enough of this. For somebody who's saying here that they, you know, this is the woke nails in the coffin, for me, he's digging the grave for it for many, many minutes over this. I'm not going to say on the nonverbal here, because, you know, the whole thing's a little bit tedious, but I will go into, again, the word lasagna that happens there, these layers of wording, you know, in the the behaviors that he's that he's projecting onto others and the way he wants himself to be viewed around his behavior during this critical thinking, marching to your own drum. They're not the same thing. Critical thinking is is is not a a an individualistic way of doing anything. Critical thinking is a well formed thing that everybody can do all together. It's not, you know, a unique style of individualism. But he but he wants to put, you know, critical thinking alongside the idea of individualism. In fact, he wants to frame himself as individual with autonomy, using time, research, study, and all of that having status. That's the idea around him. Whereas he's got this this kind of woke body that he that he puts there, which is the idea of vaccination, it's draconian, it creates shame, it's criminal fraud, it's crazed. So we can see these two sides that he's creating here, just to finish up on on this. He finishes with the idea of all of all of that side was about the league looking better to the rest of the world. I think on a personal level, what I think he misses out on is that if you're in a leadership position like like he is, it would seem I don't really know who he is, but it seems like he's big in sports and he might do a lot of show business as well. That seems to be a leadership position seems to be somebody that people would look to. And sometimes when you're in that position, sacrifice is one of the things that you do and often sacrifice in the against views that you might have, you just get in there and you do what you have to do for the bigger picture. I think it's interesting that in my view, he doesn't really seem to see that he's more about the individual way less about leading the group by sacrificing some of his own ideals around the world. Chase, what do you got on this one? This whole vaccine thing is bringing a whole new definition to political science, which is an absolute oxymoron. No politician is really smart enough to be judging something from a scientific perspective. And I think that's where a lot of the stuff should lie. Mark, you commented on the t-shirt. He's wearing a t-shirt that has a stand. It's featuring like a standoff from the old West. And the say when is the challenge, is the person challenging the other person to like a cowboy standoff. I think that's interesting positioning here. And the camera's positioned above eye level, making him look a little more small, a little more demure there. And he's surrounded by pillows and blankets. And in the first 60 seconds, he's helping to shape the way you're going to view the rest of the video. If you want to persuade someone using this cognitive bias, it's called the primacy effect. So we're likely to be persuaded by what we hear first in a conversation. And in the first 60 seconds, he uses crosshairs, mob, nail in a casket, blatant lies, witch hunt, media, selfish, personal decision, lie, and ruse, all there in the first 60 seconds. And he starts right away to default his eye accessing to where he's looking off camera to think about something to your three o'clock. And the previous video, when he was talking about being immunized, that wasn't really there at all. So that's eye home. If you ask a person to recall a piece of information, they'll typically look one direction to recall similar information in the future. And our job as behavior profilers, your job in learning behavior profiling and learning how to interpret body language is to look for changes in where a person normally looks or how a person normally behaves. So there's some innocent eyebrows. And this this eyebrows going up and genital protection where he brings, this is the only time he brings his arm in front of his crotch and responds to talking about his deception statement. And I think it's interesting how he also plugs in believing in flat earth and being an anti-vaxxer and kind of just plugging those two things together, just so you're very clear on how it is. But he says the word your body, when he's talking about not getting a vaccine or making just choices, he doesn't say my body. He wants you to identify with and agree with what he's saying. That's why he's using that word probably an unconscious decision for him to do that. The first big change in eye movement where he doesn't do this three o'clock movement is when he's saying I'm proud of the individuals that I met with. And that also is accompanied by some lip compression where the lips squeezed together, when he's talking about vaccination protocol, the leagues, the NFL's vaccination protocol. And there's some heavy seven o'clock eye movement or kind of down into his right in how the league responded to people who weren't vaccinated. And he uses the word draconian measures to help you shape your opinion of that response. And now we're seeing this reputation in non-vaccinated category with his eye movement at six, seven o'clock when he's talking about these negative things. And we see it one more time when he's saying the efficacy of the vaccines and he's talking about this. And the lips get super tight and we squeeze our lips together most of the time when we're withholding information. Right when he's saying it's impossible to get or spread COVID. Right during that statement, that's the strongest pressure when he's kind of withholding opinions and that's what we're seeing here. This guy fought a hard battle against the NFL, I'm sure. And the only major red flags in this video I see are around his team and who he met with and the research that went into this immunization that was a lot of quotes there. The facial touching is throughout the video but the facial touching is at an extreme and facial testing could suggest stress or a need to pacify. Only went to an extreme when he's talking about dealing with the NFL team of experts and being non-vaccinated. So there's a quick behavioral messaging language and then verbal analysis of all of that. It was a little long-winded. That's the longest one you've ever done, Chase. I know. I'm proud of you. Very nice. He went longer though. Oh yeah, the guy went longer. Yeah, you can't know what he can go that long. Speaking of that first 60 seconds, Chase, I was bored out of my skull after that. I have ADD. I could not pay attention to this guy after that. It just went on and on. But I did notice it was part of his, he reverted back to his baseline like Greg was saying he's comfortable, feels good about what he's saying. He's had time to go over everything and I'm sure his wife or his girlfriend said, don't worry man, you got this. It's no big deal when you go in there and talk about it. I'm just giving him confidence to talk about it or maybe he's just some kind of confident guy. So I think everything went really well for him out here apparently or he felt like it did anyway because I don't know what he said after the first minute. I just kept watching and trying to stay awake. And for those of you for you watching, as we were watching that, as we were cruising through here, Chase was drawing stuff on us and all kinds of stuff was happening. Man, that was boring. So I think I would have cut mine super short and just say, wow, that was, I couldn't hang out with that guy, man. It's way too boring. Anyway, let's throw it down the room and everybody sort of sum up what they've seen. Mark, you want to start? We're going to Mark and then Chase and Greg and I'll wrap it up. Yeah, just advice again of, you know, if you are being questioned by the media just because they didn't ask you the second question that you've already prepared for doesn't mean it's not coming later on. They're as smart as you are in what they do. If they're missing out on asking something, they may well be doing it on purpose. It will come later, maybe not later in the interview, but later that year in five years time, it's going to come up. That's why lying is for the lazy is the truth is going to come out. Eventually you've got to make sure that you have the resource ready for when that moment happens or the people around you, because you might be gone by then. Okay. The people around you, you know, have the resource ready for when the information comes out as to what the truth was. That's all I got on that one. It was just tedious. Chase, what are your thoughts? Yeah, I think he was on message the whole time. He felt very good about it and he was confident about this, which would help. And I think the story was brilliantly crafted to have all of these metaphors and archetypes to help our psychology make a decision about how to feel and how to interpret the information. It was good persuasion and it was well crafted and the camera angle was great. All of it was done pretty well. And I think he believes what he's saying. And that's maybe the difference. Like Greg was just talking about earlier, the difference between a lie and something that is deceiving and then something that's a little misinformation, then there's a problem with definitions like the old Bill Clinton sexual relations versus sex definition. And so if one person believes a specific definition about a word, then they will exhibit mostly truthful behavior in most cases. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so when you really believe in something or against something, it changes everything. If I really believe that I have a right in my body not to be vaccinated and that you're forcing something on me, it's going to put me in a different place psychologically and give me justification for whatever it takes. And I think when he went in and said, I'm immunized, he expected pushback and to get some, he even says in this, in this part of the statement, he says, had they asked the second question, I would have done this. Well, of course, when you're justified, you can say lots of things. Chase, you and I have dealt with people who have very different ideologies and interrogated people have very different ideologies. And the reason why they're able to stand up to the interrogator is because they feel like they're justified in what they're doing. This is the same thing. If you feel like you're justified, then you're going to have a lot different body language, and you're going to be above board and everything's going to be okay, you can do that. I'm not making a judgment on what how he feels about vaccines or any of that kind of thing. I'm only saying that when you are hiding something from a justification point of view, it's much easier when you're trying to hide something because you did x or y and you're trying to hide it for those reasons, that's a very different thing. So I think he came across in that if you're able to read body language and you're a journalist, you asked the right question, the second question, you would have known then. However, he held on to it until here. And now he's among people who understand his point of view and he's allowed to speak freely. And I think you see it. You see when he's frustrated, you see some of that, you see the lip compressions, you see the disgust a little bit when he's talking about something he wholly disagrees with. And that's where that my favorite part of this one, Mark, is the two things I expected for you to go, well, it's American football, how the hell would I know what they do? And then the other one was the gunfighter. Those are very cultural things for America. Those are two of the strongest cultural influence or icons of America. So kind of interesting to see that. Scott, what do you got? Okay, you guys nailed all of it. And to keep it from getting boring again, I'm just going to say, all right, let's wrap this up. So all right, if you like what we're doing, please subscribe and become a panelist. And there you have it. All right, guys, this is great. If you do subscribe, there is a cognitive bias where we are more likely to see you as better looking and more intelligent. Yes. There's a halo effect, definitely around subscribing. Get that effect. Thanks a lot, fellas. And this is a good one. I'll see you next time. Behave your panel. Dig a hole in the ground and next to chase. I was going to climb, Mark, when we all hooked up.