 Okay, hi everyone. I'm Dina Matar. I'm the chair of the Center for Palestine Studies in Adzoas and the chair of the Center for Global Media and Communication. I'm chairing this lecture that is going to be a presentation of a book and a project by Dr. Jessica Northy from the University of Coventry. Jessica I'm really looking forward to this launch and to the talk about Algeria at a very important moment but I'm not going to see the show I leave it to Jessica to tell us why it's important and kind of introduce the talk. So Jessica is a researcher and assistant professor at the Center for Trust, Peace and Social Relations at the University of Coventry. She's the director of postgraduate research there. She had worked at the or she did her research over PhD at the European University Institute and from her research came out her brilliant book Civil Society in Algeria and that was published in 2018. She's interested more broadly in you know she's focused on civil society and different countries of the global south but she's also broadly interested in the work of charities, civil society and the relationships between Africa and Europe and I think there is a program that she's associated with that she's been working on which is the Borderlands project. Maybe you can tell us about it later on but she is the country expert for Algeria for the Bertelsmann Foundation and so she is coming to this talk with a lot of knowledge and experience and we are looking forward to hearing her. The format of this discussion Jessica will be talking for about half an hour to 40 minutes and then we will be taking you'll see on your Zoom you'll have question and answers so if you could kindly put your questions there as you listen and so on and I will read them out to Jessica at the end of her talk and she can answer them as we speak. The session is recorded so I hope that is not a problem for people so without further ado I'm passing over to Jessica and looking forward to hearing the talk and to hearing from all the participants and attendees their thoughts and questions. Thank you and thank you Jessica for coming. Thank you so much Dina for this very kind introduction. Good evening to everybody I'm really truly honoured to be invited by SOAS to speak on a topic which is very close to my heart on civil society, on citizen engagement, young people and solidarity and even more so to speak about this in the context of Algeria which is I think we all know one of the most important countries if we're speaking in terms of global history, world history and the Algerian struggle for independence indeed changed the whole of Africa if not the whole world and we would be in a very different place potentially if Algeria have not gone through that very difficult history and on a personal level it's particularly important to me Algeria is a place and also a second home to me I have many friends who are like family there so chair if you would permit me I would just like to say a few words in Algerian before we start the the more official presentation so to my Algerian friends and colleagues then Salam aleikum, misal kheir, azul falawun, rani ferhan bizef kirah nahtal yaw malik tebi wal bat el yadatta kila l'ashra sunnin al aliz association fi al jazeir wa aliz implication fi al mustakbel fi maya khus dawr shabab jazeiri rani kidat indir had al hadba khater khain zuma la jazeirin kima intoma ali awununi dima kitabi rahdediya lil jazeirin linnes eli yawunu lokhren wa yihafsuhum wa idiru mubadarat kuliyum fi on vera na msaib rani talemt min anthum bizef wa to the Algerian students here in the UK lil talaba jazeirin eli rahum hana fi jamiaat fi UK ala yihafsukum, ala yahmikum, ala yikata min matalkum, min ferlikum eli yahtaj mauna rani hana intoma rahum tahumu bizef lakademi tal United Kingdom alal hob wal ihtiram alifi kalbilikum, tahitu bizef alis mahtuni anan habal jazeir wa aljazeir wal jazeirin. My apologies to our Algerian friends for my poor pronunciation and thank you so much for this opportunity to speak with you all this evening. So chair if you permit I will share my screen with the audience so can you see that chair is that clear? Yes that's that's fine thank you wonderful. So in summary for the non-Algerian speakers I just wanted to say a very big thank you and my gratitude to my Algerian colleagues who really went above and beyond to help me to produce this piece of research and I continue to learn from them and their efforts I take inspiration and everything they achieve and often difficult conditions to improve the lives of other people and secondly I wanted to encourage the number of Algerian students who are now in UK universities and thank them and Algerian academics who contribute so much to the academia in the UK. So this evening I'm going to talk about this book that I published in 2018 entitled Civil Society in Algeria. I'm going to give an introduction to what this book is about some of the main findings and then talk more specifically as well about the peaceful mobilisation in 2019 in Algeria and the role of young people within that and then lastly I'm going to look at the role of civil society and what implications this might have for young people and for the future. So firstly this book Civil Society in Algeria Activism Identity and the Democratic Process so I want to tell you a little bit about who I am why am I here why why am I invited to speak about Algeria and why did I write this book my own positionality in this research before moving on to some of the main findings and what the book is about. So I am British I'm an English researcher I am an outsider in Algeria I speak French and some very basic as you've probably guessed Algerian-Arabic but I am also deeply committed to Algeria and these questions of neutrality that you all have in your research as to your students or normativity within our research how how distant we are or whether we're insiders or outsiders obviously has huge implications are important for us all to acknowledge and to consider. I moved to Algeria in 2007 after having worked in a number of different African countries and then European countries working with the European Union and I was invited to go to Algiers for a very short period of time to help set up a project that had some difficulties to work on very technical issues such as procurement issues but during that very short period of time I became very very inspired and attached to my colleagues and we worked together incredibly well as a team and they invited me to stay so from a very short three or four day trip I ended up staying three or four years three years living in Algiers and working on this project that was supporting associations across the country in many of the different williars 48 williars of Algeria and I was able to meet with hundreds of often very small local associations that were registered regionally and support them in terms of financial management and training and project management along with a team of colleagues in Algiers working in the Ministry of Solidarity with funding from the European Union to support local development associations and so as I believe many of you will know the 1990s in Algeria was an incredibly difficult time and a very violent one in which the conflict between the Islamist insurgents and the states and the army shaped almost everything in Algerian life this breakdown and the destruction of people's everyday lives and a conflict which killed over 200,000 people and which many more fled and many more would also were disappeared meant that this the context in which the associations we were working with in the early 2000s was still incredibly difficult and the bravery and the courage of my colleagues and the associations with whom we were working was truly truly quite inspiring and the experience of these small associations often with very little support as many of the European and international funders simply left Algeria in the 1990s they they abandoned the country which I would say pretty accurate description of what happened it was very very little support to Algerians during that time and what then happened during the 1990s really happened pretty much in isolation through the through the courage and the determination of of local Algerian associations on the ground dealing with the trauma and trying to to really rebuild society so moving on from this this personal experience I then asked my colleagues at the end of the project whether they would feel it was appropriate and I could support whether they would support me to do a doctoral research on what was happening with these associations and to go back and to interview them across the country and to find out on a more deeper level the kind of impact they were having and relationships they were having with the state regionally nationally locally with people with people in their communities and my colleagues were very supportive so I went back and interviewed with 200 associations over the following four years of my PhD and then returned to Algeria a number of times later noted the last research mission for this book was in 2016 and and into interviewed further associations so the main findings of this book then and what this book is actually about is is an exploration then of civil society in Algeria of some of the historical roots and from the pre-colonial times you can in read Hugh Roberts 2014 excellent book on on Berber government that looks at the deeper roots of organization and community life particularly in the Berber regions and the Kabilia moving on to the destruction the real destruction under colonial under the colonial periods but at the same time mobilization of civil society following the 1901 French law and associations and how associations then contributed to the independence struggle and imposed independence and very difficult conditions and the need to unify the nation under one national identity some of the difficulties that associations then had to mobilize in under the FLN after 1962 but the book then mainly focuses on what happened after 1990 and in 1990 Algeria introduced a law on associations which really did open up the space for associational life and allowed the emergence of many many small associations across the country also opened up the political space which then led to the conflict and following the contested election in 1991-92 and the breakdown of of of what could have been a very very impressive reform towards democratization whereas the reforms for political parties had very different results what happened on the ground with associations and which is perhaps under recognized I believe in academia was was significant and that this law on the mobilization of associations and civil society in Algeria at this time following the 1988 protests which led to this reform and this law meant that there were associations civil society actors who began to mobilize to form the structure in in the early 1990s in a very difficult time in Algeria so the book begins by comparing some of the figures and the numbers of associations in Algeria compared to the regions I'm just going to briefly show you a few graphs I won't bombard you too much but this is some of the the figures that when I was doing my research in 2012 just to see actually there were significant numbers of associations that had gone through all of the all the boxes they take they managed to get through the bureaucracy to to to sign up at the time there was no authorisation to create an association and then by kind of the late 2010 so 2011-2012 the 93 000 associations registered in Algeria obviously the figures are quite different now with the changes in Tunisia and Egypt across the region but this was already significant I believe at that time and at the same time as we mentioned the kind of absence of international donors the absence of European actors I explored some of the figures and saw just how little support there was to Algerian civil society to NGOs, to associations in in any form in the same period so this is just an example of one donor you could expand it it possibly even be the figures and disparities would be even higher Algeria only received two million a year from the European Union for anything to any programs on civil society in 2011 whereas significantly higher budgets and other countries in the region and if you then break it down per capita you can hardly see on the graph the Algerian bar chart because it was so low so very small amounts of funding a high number of associations and then the density where these associations were so these associations again obviously Algeria is a huge country it's the largest country in Africa and the south of Algeria the deep south of Algeria is not so densely populated however there were associations active associations cultural associations who were registered and who at this period and if anything more densely so you've got the south which is quite heavily in terms of numbers of associations and then the north there's also the Berber regions you can see in the north also heavily strong numbers of associations and yet this last map shows us then that the actual projects that were there that were funded in Algeria were predominantly in the north of the country so this kind of mismatch between the amounts of funding and the actual kind of presence of associations so the book then focuses in more depth on two sectors it's it looks at cultural heritage associations and social sector associations and I wanted to try to explore to a certain extent how what seemingly might be apolitical associations were actually making an impact and were tackling some of the root causes or challenges political problems that were facing the country at the time as well as other organizations which were dealing with perhaps more specifically with more inherently political problems and issues such as those related to human rights and to the conflict that was going on the questions of national identity of culture of heritage of state policy of how do we support vulnerable people in our communities in our societies and also trauma and reconciliation these were all tackled by these these associations that I was interviewing and individually and in groups across the country so I took a case study approach and throughout the book and spent significant time with a number of associations and interviewed them about their work read their publications participate in their activities and events and I just want to mention a few which is almost impossible to go through all of the associations that make up this this book but I just want to mention a couple of associations in the heritage section and then a social sector association and so the first association would then be Bellorizan which is based in the west of Algeria in Oran created to commemorate thousand years of the city of Oran a rich long history of this city and that they're deeply proud of a combination of artists of photographers of architects from working together with students from the university to think about how to protect the cultural heritage and the patrimon of the city of Oran and you can see some of the images of this very beautiful city in the west of Algeria and kind of a very strong will for young people who were actively engaged in working with the the president of this association to think about how we can protect and preserve a very diverse sometimes contested national heritage and and how can we share this and have a debate about questions of identity and heritage protection in in the city and the wider region and so they did this in in trainings in publications but also through mass mobilization of the community of the city so you can see at the bottom there's this crowd of people on the first of May every year the association would organize a random name you like to do patrimon and they would take in 2011 already 20,000 people participated in this march through the city of Oran and they had speakers and explained the history and the heritage of the Jewish herit the buildings the Spanish the French the Ottoman Arab the Mares the mosques the the whole rich diversity of Oran is heritage and took everybody ultimately up to the big mountain on the top of the city and then celebrated together this this diversity and this continues in different forms in different ways every year in the city of Oran and they also train tourist guides and try to create jobs for young people which are sustainable and they feel would contribute in a positive way to to protecting the city so moving south now down to Gardaia which is at the gates of the Sahara a very different environment as you can see from the images and so this is the Mozambique Berber area of Algeria once again and the association for the protection de l'environnement de Benis Ken was once again again an incredibly inspiring and active association back in 2007 eight nine when I was interviewing and working with these associations and they created this organization to really think about how to protect traditional cultures and practices around the oasis so this is an oasis town that's a beautiful and unique culture in the Amzab region of of Algeria but obviously in harsh conditions and the need for very sustainable practices and to also manage the water flows and if you know you know the floods in the desert when the weds if the rains come down from the mountains then it's there were devastating floods in 2013 with the last time and if these are not properly managed then it can it can be highly destructive for the local population so they were using traditional methods to channel these waters to then use work with local kind of solidarity techniques to to divide up the water as it came through these wide channels that they themselves reconstructed to then distribute them to the different pastels of the different agricultural and the farmers and the owners of the land so that everybody was had access to water and the and the town was also protected so they then went on to set up a training centre which is now still very active in the city and they're part of networks now across North Africa and the Mediterranean to to protect oasis to share knowledge to share practices and and to train people in insustainable methods of farming and and traditional practices so moving on to the social sector associations that we that we were working with and that I interviewed over over the last decade this is the association Ashifa that I would like to present to you this evening Ashifa is one of the most dynamic and inspiring associations that I've worked with they're based in Medea so we've moved north now up towards the capital Algiers and so about an hour now with the new roads to drive from Algiers to Medea but once again Medea was an area that really really suffered in the 1990s that struggled incredibly with the levels of violence that was happening around the whole region south of Algiers from Algiers down to Medea and believe that and a devastating effect on the local population and very very difficult for people to to do anything let alone set up an association and meet and bring people together so the association Medea in 2003 the president and another colleague met in Algiers to try to deal with an issue that had spinal problems and had to travel a difficult journey at the time to try to get treatment and they questioned the lack of resources and public services in their in their own area in Medea and why even worse for children with disabilities they would have to travel a long way to get any form of rehabilitation form of support medical support and so they set up their own centre ultimately in 2008 they began just by collecting wheelchairs crutches to try to support vulnerable families in the city and the region of Medea they registered they applied and were successful in getting a small grant which helped them to set up the centre alongside a grant from Sonnatrac the petrol company and over a number of years they went from 2006 where they had 500 members to 2012 when they had 5000 members and people saw that the work they were doing was well managed was for the community was for the population and they gave generously to this association so that they could make this project work and I regularly go back as as much as I can to the visit this association and many others to try to see how how they're getting on and if they what support they need and they're also active internationally trying to support in cases where there needs to be exchange of expertise and medical questions or their children which would benefit from support from traveling to France or traveling to another country they invite American doctors the Algerian diaspora to come back to Medea and to share their knowledge they have an annual conference and and the book describes some of the difficulties they had in more detail and kind of trying to overcome some of the barriers in actually setting up and keeping going and maintaining some of the bureaucratic hurdles that they they went through but ultimately disassociation many others in in Iran in Tizu and in the south and in the east that I spoke to managed to work in often very difficult conditions where there was limited trust between people and often between the states and associations just to keep going and to work for the local communities and particularly for vulnerable people in their in their local communities to build up that relationship so in terms of just a few words of that kind of conclusion of the book then despite the violence of the 1990s working under very difficult conditions and with limited trust I argue that that these associations managed to create spaces and that they have progressively facilitated debate in a wide area including history culture and national identity human rights equality and social justice and they're deeply attached to the Algerian nation and identity whilst also critical of the many problems that they personally faced and and that they see in society Algerian associations were still protective of the state and against external interference and this also conditions the role of foreign donors this this sentiment conditions though the role of foreign donors in the country and that links back also to the absence of of foreign donors when Algeria really needed sport excuse me and and links to other questions about kind of global and global politics and and the need for recognition of the truth and history which Algeria feels Europe has not yet done and the book also then lastly questions certain western stereotypes and assumptions about Algerian civil society namely as being no more than a conservative force legitimizing and reinforcing authoritarian regimes and this kind of focus on authoritarian resilience that we see in a lot of the academic and scholarly literature on the region I argue has missed perhaps the point to a certain extent that we may have missed really important developments or as Asif Bayat argues is this concept of non-movements where people use everyday practices to challenge political authority and this kind of ignoring or overseeing of what was happening in Algeria at the time meant perhaps we weren't open to them what happened in 2019 last year which brings me to more recent developments in the context of Algeria so I'm hoping some of you or some of you obviously will know extremely well that the context of Algeria others may well know very little about the the context because the reporting has been somewhat sporadic as we were discussing before with with Dina what happened in 2019 was truly phenomenal and the role of young people in particular I think we really need to recognize and to think about and discuss and on the 22nd of February 2019 millions of Algerians marched peacefully in the street to protest against the decision of president with flickard to stand once again for a fifth mandate despite the constitution disallowing this and despite his own very ill health at the time which also meant that constitutionally shouldn't really I shouldn't have been standing in this election and this was seen as a as a humiliation to the country and Algerians refused to accept this and they stood up for for their own democracy to protect the Algerian state in fact and in what's become known as as the Hirak and professor Yahya Zubir describes the Hirak as a stunning development of a powerful civil society with incredible organizational non-violent skills and I'm not going to give too much detail because I know the time is running out and Yahya Zubir has written an excellent report which you can google if you want more information and I've recently published an article in Riviste a day which I'm happy to share as well which gives more detail about how this movement evolved in 2019 and why it's emerged but I'm going to just give a few elements today because to see how this links with the research that I was doing over the last decade with the associations and civil society but the Hirak has began mobilizing and marching in the 22nd of February 2019 and continued throughout the whole of 2019 with almost no violence and no divisions and women played a particularly strong role in the early mobilization you can see here some of the images from the 8th of March International Women's Day in which women massively took to the streets every Friday every Tuesday millions of Algerians came together on the streets of Algiers and cities across the country to demand democracy integrity and a republic not a monarchy as they argued so 5th of July independence day in Algeria again millions of people marched with this idea of protecting the Algerian state from from from it from itself to a certain extent to protect their democracy and to protect it to fight for for what they believe the values of of the real of the Algerian revolution so the Hirak was successful to in its initial stages president but the flicker did not stand again in a 5th mandate and then stood down on the 2nd of April 2019 and this obviously continued into July in the summer as Algerians then went on to demand deeper deeper reforms and and a real reform to to political life and into institutional life in the country business elites and politicians were arrested and tried on corruption and yet it was not just these marches it was also a huge movement in which there were debates artistic performance slogans creativity online mobilization and media it's it was about social justice it was about intergenerational exchanges you can see the measures began with the 5th mandate but it went far deeper it was about achieving a state of democracy and justice within Algeria and you can also see it's intergenerational children you know the young man's carrying his grandfather on his shoulders it was it was a celebration of the diversity of Algeria and and a new form of organizing so this I want to really focus on the this kind of the heart of the of the of the movement which was about solidarity about Silmia which is about peaceful protest and the celebration of of Algerian identity and and the nation so here you can see the images of the children and young people collecting rubbish and then making a making a beautiful artistic expression out of it people sharing food sharing meals the people on the bottom photo protecting the police joining hands together all Algerians to protect the police from any violence as well and then the celebration of of the different traditions and cultural heritage of Algeria as you can see the women dressed in their traditional clothes in the bottom right the bottom right picture and this idea of protecting not Algeria protecting the Algerian nation itself so this huge lesson in the civic engagement and also was about challenging kind of global injustices as well of local ones so a lot of the slogans were then calling out the Americans and the French challenging the US on there's no more oil left now if you want oil come for the olive oil there's humor there was you know linking it to kind of the environmental protests in the south of the country that was challenging fracking and this kind of extractivist mentalities and approach of western powers within Algeria and and asking for a debate about the resources and governance in the country so where are we obviously a lot has happened since then there was a presidential election in 12th of December 2019 and which we saw president taboom to be elected and with ongoing contestation of whether that election and well James Agnew we're not against the election but we you know they felt that the regime still needed to there's still needed to be changes and they needed to be reformed and so marches continued at a lower level into March 2020 when obviously we all then became faced with the global pandemic and Algeria closed down a week before the UK did with roughly the same numbers of cases as the UK had at the time and I think if you go online now and compare the two cases Algeria has clearly done significantly better than the UK in managing this crisis you can see from the signs and images now the Fridays were empty on the streets of Algiers and the protesters themselves called for people to stay home and to protect the health services and to protect the health of Algerians who have the image of the man spraying the streets but also young people came together in groups and went out and cleaned public spaces they mobilized to provide meals the set up startups in order to produce PPE legal masks and there's huge levels of solidarity continued into 2020 students went online and set up summer schools to train other students and this environment of kind of coming together and mutual support and solidarity was very much continued throughout 2020 and we're also looking now a little bit at the role of the Algerian diaspora in supporting vulnerable communities in the UK as well as in Algeria and this the levels of solidarity and kind of civic activism are clearly extremely high but still now in the different difficult conditions in which associations and individuals are working so to try to now kind of bring this all together and back to the book and some of the arguments of the book and what this what the implications are then for these young people and for the future of Algeria I personally believe and see from the research that I conducted that this kind of backdrop of grassroots activism since 1990 meant that there was really a level of social capital within these civic associations and an experience of volunteering in very difficult conditions which meant that people were able to mobilize often very effectively and we saw in 2019 the certain colored vests would be then the medical support and this kind of high level of mobilization and capacity to for peaceful protests and intelligent critique of a local to national to global political challenges and I believe that there are highly astutes internationally connected and very well educated young people now in Algeria and I was discussing with Dina before we were in the Ecole Supérieure de la Science politique in Algiers just January and the level of debates and discussion and the introduction of English into the higher education system in Algeria is pretty impressive and these young people now have new expectations and they want integrity of governance and I believe this is what's really of interest to the civil society organizations and to the individuals that I was interviewing this integrity of governance rather than ideology and these young people are now actively engaged so we have now a new research initiative working together with our university and Algerian universities which is youth futures program which is about imagining the future and this is really trying to engage now over the next few years with young people to to interview them to see how they imagine the future with a focus on the environment and these kind of global questions really which face all of us in a context of climate change and ecological crisis which I was discussing with Algerian students this summer with their global summer schools on the environment how now do they imagine their futures and challenging context and how can we look for experiences from the associations such as our pebbing are there about how can we now be sustainable how can we we draw on these on experiences to move forward and how do they imagine the future and so in conclusion I have two conclusion slides and then there we'll draw to a close and ask for your questions and civil society actors and all of Algerians in the last years have played a fundamental role in creating this space I argue for debate for reflection and action and I want to quote professor Omar Derash from the University of Iran who spoke already in 2007 after his study on civil society and associations in Algeria and he argued that further reforms are needed to anchor the developments that he saw in Algerian political social cultural life and if these were found he argued then the associate associative movement could become a rampart against the arbitrary and against authoritarianism allowing the emergence of an important part of civil society not simply placing itself in a strategy of confrontation but one of mediation in essential partnerships and lastly Algerian civil society and youth in particular I argue have shone a light on the problems of global significance and this is unaccountability corruption and the breakdown of a capitalist model and the rise in authoritarianism and the failure to protect our environment and they've done this not only in protesting but in also offering an alternative model and values in promoting social solidarity and cultural diversity environmental activism and a wider engaged political debate Algerians are reclaiming their environments their cultural and political spaces in an urgent move to reform society for a fairer and more sustainable future and this is from a more recent article that we've just published now on the revista Hidde's website about imagining a new political space so I'm going to leave it there and hand the floor to the chair for for your questions comments debates and criticism which I am more than open to particularly from our Algerian friends and colleagues and I hope we can enrich the debate and go a bit deeper in the questions okay thank you thank you very much so that was really a very interesting and exciting talk I you know kind of want to abuse my role as a chair and just have a short question which is you know kind of thinking around your use of bayat and the idea of non-social movements and the way that we could use that as to show that there is a process you continuous process of engagement with civil society and activism that kind of debunks the argument around authoritarianism because the key debates around the Middle East and the Arab world particularly because of the suggested so-called failure of the so-called Arab Spring is that it's because of this persistent and resilient authoritarianism so in a sense you you know I just want to want to do to expand a bit on this argument that is really profound and important to make which shows that there is some form of civic or political engagement taking place so and then I've got a few questions that I'm going to pose to you from the audience so if I may start with that one and then move on to the audience because they do have some very interesting questions wonderful yeah I think absolutely Dina I mean the question of this idea of continuous progress and engagement within civil society I think is far more interesting and important to explore if we want to understand democracy democracy isn't just one election it isn't one day it isn't one event it isn't one person the one man as they showed in Algeria I know it is it is much deeper than that it is about this the relationships across institutions and society and mentalities and and capacity to change and to reform and to think and critical thinking and so by its concept of non-movements this kind of critique or peaking their social movement theorists or the fanzatologists or the kind of the focus on authoritarianism is is a useful way I think that he does that to challenge people to think more deeply about politics about democratization about reform and the book is very much about that to kind of challenge this this perspective which I would argue and I mean from sides Orientalism I mean to consider one region is not capable of reforming I mean it it makes no sense and for me the logic is it isn't there and we need to go to the grassroots level we need all forms of research to understand our political context but doing that kind of grassroots interviews qualitative research I think allows us to to understand trends and development over time okay thank you so I'm going to kind of pose the questions in the order so the first question that came well first of all I just want to thank you for that very brilliant introduction and speaking in the language of the people that you are researching that was quite moving and important and I think many many of the audience were were appreciative of that so thank you for starting that way it was really great so the first question that comes is how difficult or easy was it to conduct your research in Algeria as a woman and the second question that you know you saw I'm giving you two questions because there's a few of them coming up is that a question related to how Algerian identity and the nation is important to these associations did you find anything in case of the MSc and the groups and where can you say something about whether you do have civil associations amongst the MSc population and then we go to the other questions so can you hear me okay was I lost a couple of the the second question you said Algerian identity and nation is important to the associations could you just repeat the second part of the question Dina what of the question is how does it figure you know duty in in the case of MSc groups and do can you say something about civil society in the MSc population Sean so the first question how difficult was it to conduct research in Algeria as a woman so I personally think that it was easier to conduct research as a woman because also I had a lot of connections I'd worked there for two years people knew who I was and it's only really thanks to those colleagues friends and family of those colleagues that I was able to do this research because but I trusted me and they also corrected me and guided me in how to go about it in a respectful way and in a safe way which wasn't going to have to stress is still certain anxieties about people and foreigners traveling around Algeria at the time but I was as a woman I was invited into people's homes to stay in their families to you know to the weddings so I was really very much part of the community and they I was yeah I had absolutely really no problems I traveled discreetly and I hope I haven't in any way offended the Algerian authorities but you know I was was there as one individual phd researcher with the support of my colleagues I've worked in the ministry so they knew what I was doing and I traveled on the buses across Algeria from Tiret to Qadaia my colleagues put me on the bus in Tiret and other colleagues met me in Qadaia and I took taxi sometimes with friends and it's it was it's very easy if you if you go about it in the right way and and with the right connections and and in a way that's respectful of of local people I would suggest and I whenever I go back to Algeria it's very very difficult because there are so many families and associations with whom I'm connected who I want to spend time with and who are extremely generous and hospitality I'm sure all the Algerians in the audience will know that Algerian hospitality is truly exceptional and and the food and the welcome and that you you receive when you do go to Algeria if you it's slightly difficult to get the visa that's the only I would say the main challenge as it is for Algerians to get a visa to come to the UK far more difficult and I strongly support the Algerian policy of reciprocity on that but no there were it was I was very fortunate to be able to conduct research in very good conditions the topic that I was researching was one that people wanted to talk about and they were happy to share their work and it was something which was positive and generally despite the difficulties and so so it wasn't yeah there were no major difficulties in that regard and in terms of how these associations view identity and the nation and I think there's some really important and interesting research done by Nadia Marzuki which you can look at her article in Middle East Studies I think which is on this idea of kind of questioning Algerian identity and and protecting Algerian identity and the state and looking at it as a Maghrebi one and relooking it as an African one as an inclusive identity and and one which which includes the other and which includes the transnational perspectives Mediterranean perspectives Arab perspectives Middle Eastern perspectives European African that there are many many layers and you know Algeria is a proud and independent Arab speaking nation and and can benefit from many many different forms and layers of identity but if the question was specifically related to Amazigh groups within Algeria which which you you've referred to then there's a hugely dynamic and rich tissue associative in in kabilia in in the emzab which we saw in in in the presentation and there's a real dynamic in those regions of activism which draws on the kind of history of pre-colonial structures of Algerian society which Hugh Roberts investigates so well in his book about about that and I think what we saw in 2019 as well was this kind of although there were we know there were challenges and issues and the banning of the flag but ultimately Algerians came together to say we are one nation we are Amazigh we are Arab we are you know we are multilingual we we have many different identities but we are protective of the Algerian nation and I believe vast majority of the Amazigh associations I interviewed had that perspective there is a minority separatist movement but that was very much the perspective that I had from the Amazigh associations that they were they cared deeply about the Algerian nation and they were the forefront of the struggle for the revolution in 1954 onwards and that is still still the case that there's pride in the Amazigh and Arab different identities of Algeria. So thank you very much so I have two questions one from please and one from the audience question you know the zoom audience and they are kind of related because one is asking about how do you define civil society are in Western definitions of civil society in narrow and ideologically oriented liberal notions of civil society and then what about class how does that fit into the you know kind of the concept of civil society and a related question which is from Fatma saying that this very detailed survey of the civil society in Algeria and that the question is that why didn't you mention a great number of did you not mention the great number of association not registered with the ministry of interior and then so in a sense you know did you miss out for example the women's movement during the Hiraq where a feminist group took out to the streets to ask for equality of rights and full citizenship etc so I wondered whether that was you know you you whether you mentioned these variations in your in your book and whether you could respond to the question around definitions of civil society that you thank you for thank you for all the excellent questions and first and on the definition whether Western concepts of civil society are too narrow or ideologically oriented I think it's useful for us to conceptualize and to think about these terms and to consider the different authors and scholars such as Gramsci and his kind of counter-hegemonic role that civil society can play and I think and I mentioned in the book you know this difficulty of transferring concepts they need to be rooted in the historical context of a country but I think that nonetheless it's useful to do like ibn Khaldun you know the of our greatest philosophers and historian sociologists of of the world had the concept of asa biya I mean how do you translate asa biya I mean maybe you can say better than me but no this is this idea of asa biya and the kind of generational it's useful and interesting for us to to consider in the western context and to think about transition and change and governance and cycles but there's no direct translation of that concept but I think it's useful for us to to learn from from different contexts and I would argue that as defined by many scholars and in both the western world and in the middle east that the concept has been explained in this kind of formation of different groups associations trade unions independent organizations as a kind of counterbalance between the state and the private sector is nevertheless clearly I mean there are active associations organizations that are dependent which are campaigning for change or which are campaigning to to protect vulnerable populations that this is I believe useful in the context of Algeria but it's an excellent question and question too so questions of class and how does that fit into notions of civil society and I mean I'm particularly in the context of Algeria I was really I mean the the divisions within society at the time I was studying didn't seem to be focused around class but I think it's possibly more deep-rooted than that that it is that there are elites that profited from Algeria's resources and these are being challenged and called out by the vast majority of the Algerian population see themselves a different class from from those those groups that have profited but there are other I think important aspects and and kind of regional disparities that people are trying to overcome and bring people together which which are important to understand as well and this question of not registered associations or kind of is there a civil society that that we've missed out or that have overlooked in the 1990s at the time you didn't need to have approval in principle to register an association you needed to have your 12 members you have the Loire du Catechandiste the 1990 law which set out what you needed to do to set up an association but thanks to the lobbying of associations themselves in the late 1980s that law was pretty pretty open and and allowed many many many associations to set up so many many associations were created and in principle the the agreements should have been automatically given to all of those associations and also a hundred thousand of them did that however you're very right there were associations which were very politically involved and engaged and they didn't receive the renewal of their statutes so they were held with held at the willy at the regional government and not given back so there were institutional blockages or slowness which meant that associations would struggle and were in very difficult conditions and I don't deny that there's been very difficult and challenging conditions in which many of these associations were working the book details some of those and how they overcame them and the law changed in 2012 and into what associations feel and this was in response to the Arab Spring so-called Arab Spring and that this idea of Algeria was trying to reform at the time but this new law is contested again and that it's adding another layer of bureaucracy and that officially now Algerians have to have an approval and it meant that out of these hundred thousand associations that were now registered half of them then all of a sudden were were non-registered because they hadn't taken the recent box they hadn't resubmitted their statutes or haven't been approved which created a whole I mean a whole a real mess both for the state and the associations to manage and this was incredibly complex I mean I was in Bleeder at the time just after this law and in Bleeder they'd approved everyone and this was because of one really dynamic person in the in the willy and they'd pushed and made sure that all of these associations had their statutes renewed and were pushed through it's really at that level I think we need to go to the institutions to the regional government to see whether this is really kind of a politically motivated decision or whether it's institutional snowless whether it's you know there are other aspects at play but there's you know the capacity of people to mobilize and to demand you know we want we need that we want our statutes back and we want them back for all of the associations in this willy was possible to do in the case of Bleeder and and shows this kind of development of political consciousness and awareness and holding to account which was developing across this time and there was a huge mobilization in 2012 against this law from associations and different networks and collectives that said no we we want to hold our associations registered um but you rightly said there's also groups that might not want to be registered as an association they're an informal structure and they have an important role to play and during the mobilization of 2019 it wasn't associations that were marching nobody marched in the name of an association they marched as Algerians or they marched as Algerian women as you rightly said and they marched for rights of Algerian women and there was the Cary Feminist there was a space for women and women on the 8th of March were really at the forefront of those marches they they were protecting their sons and their husbands and their brothers from violence with the police women knew that if they were there protesting that that would change the whole dynamic of the movement so I think you raised a really important question and that if we were doing this research now that we would need to to engage with those organizations there's been other research by Francesco Cavatotto who looks specifically at um at organizations led by women who were looking at the kind of the history of the 1990s and working to support the families who suffered and so there are a whole range of associations that maybe other people have also investigated and interviewed and I didn't want to then go back and bother these associations yet again but also I thought there were other other sectors that needed focus and engagement and exploration where I had contacts but there are also many many fantastic Algerian researchers I'm sure some in the room who will also continue that research and do that research moving on from 2019 onwards. Thank you so I have a couple of questions that I'm going to put together and I have a question about Lebanon I'll come back to that later if I may I'm not forgetting that question so one question is about the reaction and the government decisions during the Hiraq how do you did you see that as manipulative as responsive or something else there's another question that is kind of interesting coming from a comparative perspective with Tunisia saying in Tunisia the civil society is highly polarized between Islamists and modernist civil society actors do you have the same type of situation in Algeria and a related question which is in relation to the Hiraq is how did you did you see that the young people were using digital media and what role they played digital media played in that movement and there's there's a Elena I'll stay similar question so that answers two questions at one go. Thank you thank you very much so the first question about the reaction of the government and decisions which were made during the Hiraq and whether these were manipulated or responsive I think in the initial stages I mean you clearly see that these were responsive to the demands of the people I mean they could literally do nothing else I mean the people on the 22nd of February millions of people talk to the streets and and the state had to respond and it was they literally they could no longer ignore it they could no longer repress it the army was not willing to repress it police were not willing to repress and and they had to respond and each week progress however you define progress but you know the decisions were made in favor of what the people were demanding and with the figure cancelled the election then people said that's not enough and we don't accept that you stay in power I want you to stand down he ultimately stood down so every and then the former prime minister was was arrested on corruption charges ministers were arrested business elites arrested and the people then wanted the removal of the three bees and the three main men in power at the time and and that happened progressively they moved you know the people who were requested to depart departed and so during those initial stages of the hit arc I would believe whether manipulated I mean they were responsive to the demands of the people at the time and I think it was no other choice than to do that and in terms of polarization and Tunisia and thank you to our Tunisian colleague and I think there's huge connect potential for sharing information and experience and it's during some of the mobilization we had as women the 8th of March you know there was a connection between Tunisian women and Algerian women to try to support and work together and to learn from each other in terms of polarization between Islamist and modernist you described it in Algeria there is a huge diversity of civil society and associations in Algeria but the hit arc in particular I feel really was a moment in which Algerians came together and which overcoming the divisions which previously have ravaged Algerian society Algeria suffered so much during the 1990s because of that division because of the split between the Islamist movement and more secular movements and I profoundly believe from my colleagues and friends of in Algeria that there is a very strong sense now of one Algeria and a united Algeria around the values which are Algerian ones and which are Islamic ones and which are about integrity and faith and identity as Muslims as Algerians whether you're secular or not you know you have that powerful history and culture and heritage that comes with you and which overrides this kind of not this fake divisions which have been manipulated in many cases to divide people when actually people are united against the real problems which is corruption and and by the governance and the the extractivism in Algeria and the removal of the resources and these are questions which can bring people together whatever your it's not an ideological debate we're fighting for you know a better Algeria and for better governance of our resources and for a better future for our children whatever your beliefs or your specific identity or cultural heritage might be the last question on digital media I think you know Algeria if you're if you're not on Facebook then you're in a difficult place if you want to go and make friends or travel or do work in Algeria there's a very very strong prominence of Facebook and people communicate very regularly through Facebook and Messenger and and there's very kind of viv debates, lively debates and and powerful debates it's also possible for that to go in a the wrong direction as we all know social media can also be very damaging and quite violence and in all contexts and I think that's you know something that Algerians now have to manage it's a tool which can allow us to come together and to mobilize and to organize but it can also be quite divisive. I'm not a specialist on on digital media we have some fantastic Algerian PhD students in Algeria and the University of Jigel who are looking at those questions who would be able to answer this better but I think it definitely was a useful tool at the time to to connect and to share and to document and to make an archive of these images and they were the powerful coming together of people during the during the mobilization. Thank you as someone walking on media I agree well we need to study it it's really central to everything we do currently. So we have a couple of questions coming up one is from Forzia although the increasing number of collective associations in Algeria they still play a limited role in the implementation of real political reform what can we do to try and and improve or enhance that you know kind of precision and from Amberto the question is about the future role of the hierarch and this relation with the military while it has succeeded in in helping the removal of Bouteflika from power it seems to be struggling at the moment and that's the question a few days from the constitutional referendum does it need to does the hierarch in your opinion need to imagine this role in in the Algerian society and engage more in politics or will its rejection of the current political framework push it to its relevance particularly in the context of the pandemic which is a question that came earlier of whether the pandemic has actually stalled or stopped the hierarch from operating more effectively. Thank you for these for the excellent questions Forzia so the the limited role I'm now I would agree with you I was talking at a very localized level often in terms of as of Bayat and these non-movements and kind of very progressive political change but in terms of real political reform and how can we enhance their position or how can they enhance their position I I think this is a is a process it's an ongoing process and it needs to also be able to come to have impacts and I think the kind of work that we're doing in terms of like participatory action research and looking at how we we communicate and how we we campaign for improving systems or challenging political decisions this is a whole skill set and and it needs it's an ecosystem now it's not just one organization on their own it needs to be have an environment in which people are able to debate and to speak and to contribute but also to have an impact on the political level and if you if you look at some of the mobilization in 2012 around the law on associations and how the associations came together to discuss that law and to challenge it and then to lobby the parliament to do that and lobby members of parliament and to and then and then the first round of voting the the law was rejected by the parliamentarians and and challenged it and called out and then it was pushed through on a second round they were told to vote that way and so it felt like for the associations that this that this you know that everything they'd done they'd campaign they brought this all together they had the information they knew that this was then just stopped at the parliament so this it's a wider institutional context now we need to have that relationship with members of parliament people need to be able to engage in the political system and to be able to influence to through the media I mean you have a fantastic media in Algeria difficult as it is you know you have people are very brave and they speak out and they challenge decisions and this is you know this is a hugely important part of democracy and political life the role of newspapers and media online or offline and associations often know the problems facing people at the local level and they know the difficulties and they know the traumas that people have been through and they know how to find responses and that those responses aren't enough and it needs to be a wide level and so if they can I think Omar Daras's point about this kind of mediated partnerships that if associations can have a little bit more support a little bit more strength a bit more kind of people support them in the community and people give as we've seen the Algerians do so so much and they contribute in terms of solidarity to the support other members of the community but now to consistently do that I think this is is going to come it's going to happen the way it's happening it's it's an emerging it's evolving it's not one event and in terms of is the Hedak struggling relations with the military is the Hedak struggling and they mentioned the constitutional referendum that's happening this weekend this is obviously a challenging time for Algeria and and it's a difficult period not just by one event but but the whole of this year now I mean what happens next this is a huge demand for deep and meaningful reform for the way institutions work not only with just one man in a presidency but the whole of the institutional system wants to do to bring it to to bring change and to bring improvement and to make life better for people so that they can so that they can can can be free and can and can flourish rather than battle against blockages and and and what they might consider to be arbitrary decisions so I think the Hedak was the most beautiful and powerful movement that we've seen in the world in the last year and inspired and was inspired from Lebanon, Sudan but also Tunisia and other movements across the region and the Hedak is not one person it's not an organization it's a movement of the whole population and it's about values and so and that stays and there was that that that doesn't disappear if you have a movement a movement come for an organization it can fall apart it can dissipate but those those values stay and this is an article that Louisa Ait Hamdouche wrote I believe yesterday and it was in Elwatham about the Esprit the Hedak and this is it's not about removing people from power it's about creating the next generation of political leaders it's about creating those new political actors who have this Esprit the Hedak and because we saw so many millions of Algerians marching for those values you know this this is inherent in the Algerian population so of course they're struggling as we all are I think in difficult contexts and to a certain extent we're watching our own society here in the UK becoming more authoritarian rather than the other direction and we all need to it's all of our responsibilities individually to stand up for our democracy to fight for it consistently in the Algerian case they have another a number of challenges and they the constitutional referendum this weekend will is one step it's one phase in this next process and we will not necessarily see what happens this weekend but as as Louisa Ait Hamdouche says you know we this this spirit of the of the Hedak needs to be maintained and we need new actors to come into the political space to do that so is there a rejection or a relevance now of the Hedak given the pandemic or has Covid stalled the movement and it's obviously incredibly difficult to do to mobilize to meet to come together in the current situation and I think that was one of the most beautiful things of the Hedak movement is that coming together of Algerians in public spaces and reclaiming those spaces for their owners in a struggle for fighting for a for a better future and I think that physical coming together was important I think we all feel that no working on our own in our own little boxes and not meeting our colleagues not meeting our friends at all levels of society there's kind of the separation that we feel from each other and the online and constantly looking at screens and engaging on their spots on Twitter this is you know it's not it's much more difficult it's a very different way of organizing but it's certainly not prevented Algerians from mobilizing engaging and debating and thinking politically about the next steps and there are many very brave and inspiring people who are continuing those debates online and who are also you know challenging with the detainees who are in in in prison cell and trying to you know ensure that this the ongoing movement for for a progressive and reforms within the country those debates are still happening and it's difficult and it's not an easy situation for Algerians and they deserve our support and understanding and not our interference and but I believe that this is now wider than just marching in the streets now it's it's about all the work that the associations were doing now it's about building and constructing and contributing and training people and helping people and coming together in networks and if for the moment that has to be online I guess that has to be online and Algeria has done the right thing and in terms of its very strict response to the Covid virus whether you could argue that there's kind of authoritarian tendencies across the world with people are locking down more in certain contexts than others but ultimately the number of deaths in Algeria compared to the number of deaths in the UK is significantly different following this virus so we certainly hope that the protection of the health services in the country and all of Algerians is is prioritized as well as the important political reforms and ongoing debate that that is happening and that will continue to happen. Thank you there's a couple of more questions that kind of move us somewhere else and and the first question I'd like to question by Louisa later if we have time but the question is whether any of the organizations were collaborating with any of the Maghribi states and and you know is in light of debates about Maghribi regional integration and the related question is do you is it wrong to say that Algeria is often forgotten in debates around the MENA region in general and the other one which is also related and goes back to the question by Louisa do you think there are similarities between all protests sort of art graffiti social expression in Egypt Lebanon New York and Istanbul and then we move on to the last questions in the next round I'll come back to the question you know the question that Louisa asked is whether you can see similarities between Algeria and Egypt right now so if you could you know answer these questions in five minutes it's difficult but you've got you've got loads of fascinating question coming up so yeah so I'm just trying to give you know people the chance to have an answer to their questions I'd be happy also to continue the debate if there's any format for doing that and answer questions if they're in the chat and on any post or blog post that you might have in the future Dean I'd be happy to do that if there's a way to do that and in terms of collaborating with other Maghribi states it wasn't necessarily easy for the associations but there were exchanges in particular APEB they were very active in a regional network so and this linked Tunisia Morocco Mauritania France I believe in a very active network and you can google them and see what they're doing and they were training you know farmers across the region and sharing good good practices they do a number of videos online so they were connected from Gardein and the gates of the Sahara to across the the whole Maghreb region and they argued that to a certain extent it was easier to work like that internationally than to nationally and they wanted to actually connect with associations within Algeria in Kabilia and in other fairly similar contexts and yet they'd been approached by this network and so that that had worked and happened but I'm sure that's developing more since you know most of my research was done a few years ago every time and I'll travel to Algeria it's mainly in more of an academic context in conferences and my academic partners in Algeria are often in Tunisia and conferences traveling across the region so definitely I would think at an academic level there are increasing connections between the Maghreb region and I think that would be really that's a really really interesting and important question to to look out and explore further whether Algeria is forgotten in the MENA region I think in the UK possibly because perhaps we have less connection to Algeria we'd know less about it which is really a shame because I think we would learn hugely from Algerian history and contemporary and less contemporary history and that we need to engage more with our Algerian colleagues but I think the fact that there are now a number of Algerian PhD students who I referred to in my introduction 500 PhDs have been funded by the Algerian government over the last five years to study in UK universities we have some wonderful academics, Algerian academics in UK universities and in academia in general who are contributing to to sharing information about Algeria and to trying to promote more focus on the Maghreb in general and not just Algeria but the whole of the Maghreb region so that there can be more connections between the UK and the region and I think in terms of similarities I think this kind of creative expression and the kind of creative role and intelligence and kind of humour that we saw across the region in the protests and around the Mediterranean in general this kind of use of culture and arts and different forms of representation definitely transcends the borders and is a such a powerful tool to to express dissent in a constructive way in a creative way in a powerful way and then in a way that's ombillier that makes it makes it beautiful and I think that's there were definitely similarities on that front and hopefully shared learning and we can also learn from those messages that Algeria was often directing at us as well by the you know the internationalist kind of global critique of capitalism and then hydrocarbons and extractivism so there is a very powerful way to give a message and I think we could definitely see that across the different protests in the region. Thank you. About five minutes. I know that less than five minutes brilliant it's the creativity is so amazing but we're also you know learning from creativity of the BLM the Black Lives Matter movement and so on so I want to bring together you know a few questions one is about the Iraq's leadership it doesn't you know why do you think it doesn't have a leadership do you think that the Algerians believe that the new referendum is going to make a change what role can civil society play going forward and then there's one question saying that within the Iraq movement there is some attacks on its youngsters because because there is a kind of a discourse that is so in confusion that yes it's a movement for change but at the same time it is trying to destroy change so I think this question might not you know we might not be able to answer it today and then so if you could talk briefly about the leadership you know what do you think about the issue of leadership considering that you are very reliant on Bayat's notion of non-social movements second thing is do you believe do you do Algerians think that the referendum is going to make any changes and what role can civil society action and actors play in the future of Algeria so maybe you could answer those questions and then we'll draw the discussion currently to an end and as and then you can you know maybe you can give your email if you want to to people and they can send you some questions absolutely um so firstly on the question of leadership I mean I think the Algerians were incredibly intelligent in the initial stages and throughout because you know if you have one leadership then you're highly vulnerable to being taken out and removed and as a as a means of attacking a movement so the kind of the shared responsibility for this mobilization and kind of belonging this ownership by everybody of this movement in the first months of the demonstrations and the kind of joy of being together on the streets of Algiers and reclaiming that space was so profound that not one movement or one person or anyone could claim that for themselves and obviously the difficulties of not having leadership then means how then do you move forward afterwards and if you succeed in your goals then where do you go afterwards there are there are um so many leaders in Algeria I mean there's a hundred thousand registered associations each have a president and well obviously they're all different and I'm not saying that they're all you know transformational but there are people who have experience of of of activism of solidarity of organization of the values that were represented in the Hirak um which I believe is is just as important as having I mean there are there are inspirational people within the Hirak who are deeply respected and who are protected by the population but to to call out one one person well it was the beauty and the kind of the success of the Hirak in avoiding that um in terms of the referendum I think Algerians are now extremely astute in reading their constitution and then engaging and understanding the flaws is and the meaning and what that represents and in particular since the last two years um there was also I mean there was referendum there was a change in constitution when I lived in Algeria in 2008 which changed the constitution to allow for like a run for a second time a third time that the time has come to the end of the second mandate and I couldn't believe it at the time I was like you can't just change a constitution during colleagues where you know they were very frustrated and they said but of course you'll see just we'll change it overnight it's no problem whatsoever to change a constitution and to change the rules that's that's not a problem and and I was surprised to see yes okay that's that's what happened the constitution was changed and the constitution was changed into 2016 to bring back the limits of two two mandates for the president and there were you know positive reforms in each time and there was there was a debate that was run across the country about that now there's all forms of critique and you can be you can you can challenge and and argue whether that consultation was was inclusive and whether people were included but um my argument this is a is a process it's not one event or one document and it's certainly not one document that will change the way we function what matters now is is the principles and the values and the respect of the constitution once it's in place that the constitution was respected that there's a separation of powers of justice of the executive and you know that the principles are respected um rather than just rewriting the laws it's easy to rewrite the laws what matters now is how those are implemented and how those are respected and that I believe is what Algerians really care about and that they will fight for they will they will mobilise for in this brings us to the last question around civil society and that's the role then of of the the leaders within civil society rather than the hero but those people who who stand up for who challenge who who who fight for the human rights and for from a better Algeria and for for ensuring that the institutions represent the people and that they represent the values that people stood up for um in the last two years in particular but they've been doing it since 1990 as well that those values are taken forward and this I believe in the active civil society going around just the associations but you know the media journalists academics universities students in particular young people have been so engaged and frustrated I acknowledge you know the the last question on this kind of attack on young people I mean it's extremely difficult to to see the difficulties and the divisions and the manipulation but this is to be expected any mobilisation any campaign will will have these kind of attacks um down the line what matters now is kind of protecting those the values and and the integrity that people stood up for in early 2019 and I think that's what civil society will continue to to struggle for and to to work hard for in the coming years that's fantastic there were a couple of questions around that we don't have time to take them um but I think on that kind of very positive note we want to thank you and there have been a few you know more than a few comments in the questions and answers saying what a brilliant presentation and thank you for it and for your research and so and and we really you know we really appreciate what you know your research and again your enthusiasm and your passion for Algeria and its people there was one comment from Samia Samira Hammoudi which I thought was interesting to read out in relation to the leadership the lack of leadership there is no leadership because Algerians represent the unity which is rather rather a very you know kind of informed plus important comment about the unity of the people as the people um so thank you uh Jessica again and thank you for the so as Middle East Institute for hosting this talk um and for the audience you've been really brilliant and asked so many questions and um you know interesting discussion brilliant thank you all of these you are brilliant so you really need to you know kind of take that and continue your work on Algeria and hopefully we can see more of this kind of civil society in in other parts of the region and the Arab world but thanks again and thank you all for all your fantastic questions and looking forward to seeing you at other events take care thank you so much Dina thank you everybody bye bye