 Buddy, welcome back to the Think Tech Hawaii studios. I'm Andrew Lang, the security guy. We've got another exciting episode of Security Matters for you today, and I've got an amazing guest. We're going to talk about something that's maybe in some parts of the world going well, maybe in others not so well, crisis management, crisis leadership. Dr. Terri Oroces with us today. And she's did her dissertation in this work. You've got a wide range of skills, Terri. So I really appreciate you joining us today. Thanks for being here. My pleasure. Thank you for the introduction. Now, I want to first get our audience a little bit of an introduction. We met at InfraGuard last year, and we'll talk about that a little bit. But go ahead and give us some of your background so the audience kind of knows what you're bringing to the table today. Because it's quite varied and exciting, I think. OK. Like I mentioned before, I did go off and join a military against wishes right out of high school and spent four years in the Army. And when I left the Army, I knew that I wanted to go to college and ultimately did. Spent several years in college. Then I got a job. I was my first degree as a bachelor's in biology, my master's in genetics. And then I went work in a lab as a staff scientist doing molecular genetics work for 10 years. And at some point, 2000, I got asked to be a director. And life as a director is very different from a scientist because now you have to care about things like cost and meetings and things working very well. So my whole dynamics change, I had to generate some revenue. So I created a certificate program in Cambodia Radnup Defense. We're right next door to Wright Pat Air Force Base. We have Battelle Industries up in Columbus, nearby. And so we're perfect to do some Homeland Security things. And because we are in a medical school, everything has a medical approach. Now, prior to COVID, when I would talk about health care, people usually did not see the connection. Now I talk about health care and Homeland Security. They get it right away. You usually have to sell them with the whole, we need the health care professionals at the table making decisions. And they have to come prepared. I would just get this look of people not understanding, sorry. But now it's clear that they have to have that background. And that's kind of like my soapbox. Nice. So did you do bio-radiation hazard stuff? Did you do that in the Army? And you brought that with you, that interest? Yeah. I did it in the Army. So when I stepped up as director, we already had chem agents, and we had a bio-agent class to buy our adjunct faculty from the Intel. But I did as I created one based off of case studies, another course. And then that developed into a certificate defense, CBRN defense program. And back in 2013, the FBI, our close friends, said they wanted to send some of their people through. The Secret Service wanted to send their people through. So they got a special government rate where government people can take our program for in-state tuition, which was really a wonderful accomplishment. That's awesome. Congratulations. So you're also, I mean, you're an author. When did you start writing books? I got to know about this because I think everybody wants to write a book, but not many do. You've written several books. Behind me? Yeah. Sorry. I'm going to show you my book. There. So. Awesome. So just a variety. My first book I did, next year book, was in 2013. And it's called Weapons of Mass Psychological Destruction. I'm sorry, I wasn't prepared to show you guys. So I didn't. Yes. Weapons of Mass Psychological Destruction and the People That Use Them. Because as you know, I have several areas of research. One is decision making, crisis decision making, and the other is terrorism, researching not doing. And so my first book was about weapons of mass destruction and the people that use them. Then I started doing the research on the American terror 519 American citizens charged with acts of terrorism. I looked at up to 50 different variables and identified patterns in the data and wrote a book. And that was the talk that you heard me give at Quantico. And I got a little bored. I had some free time. So I started fiction about an FBI agent, a female. She's a bit emotional, drops cover, not a very good agent. And so I started a series. And I found it a lot of fun after writing academic books and chapters and journal articles to be able to write whatever I want and not necessarily tell the truth. It was freeing in a way that I never expected. So that's so interesting. Are you going to continue with that series as well? Is that a nice outlet? I mean, now we're all stuck at home. Do you find yourself writing more or less? How's it going? I've been focusing on getting some papers out. And now that I have them all set up by one, I'm just blushing my chest. So I do have, I think I'm going to have a few days during writing a creating a qualitative system for medical students. So I have to decide, write a new fiction book or create a qualitative system. Wow. It seems like you're using both sides of your brain all the time, right? You're keeping a good balance with that kind of work or both kinds of work, I suppose. So I have to know you're also the president of InfraGuard's chapter out there in Dayton. How's that going? And how'd you get involved with InfraGuard? Back into, I have a Dayton tank tank. It's a group of 50 top crisis leaders in our region. I started it with our mayor, Nan Whaley, Dayton Mayor. And basically, I went to her with a list of matter experts crisis leaders. And she gave me her list. And together, we created this 50-member tank tank. And I was there talking about EMPs. I had just a book on EMPs. And one of the members of my tank tank said, oh, you should join InfraGuard. So I met with the president. And he said, oh, yeah, come on board. And I ended up giving them a talk. And I went to Congress that year. And so for those of you that do not know, Congress is InfraGuard's annual meeting. And we team up with ASIS. And it happened that at that conference, I got to meet the author of the book that got me started into InfraGuard. So it was a really cool circle. And because the same tank and InfraGuard is so well aligned, I'm able to have speakers for both groups. And ultimately, what we're hoping to do is to work with my university and create a center, a health care, excuse me, Homeland Security kind of fusion center, teaming up InfraGuard, the tank tank, and the university. And write Pat Air Force Base and Battelle and anybody that wants to be there. That's awesome. So you're facilitating a whole lot of stuff on behalf of Homeland Security. And we need that. Thank you so much for the work that you do. I know it keeps you busy. So now we can get to the maybe little more of the meat of our topic today. So crisis leadership, talk to us a little bit about how, first of all, you got interested in that because it's obviously top of mind for everyone today. And we've seen a lot of bad examples. So we'll get into some of the features and some of the work and some of the notes that you sent me as well. But how did it come to your attention that this is something that we need to pay attention to? Faculty meetings. Well, faculty meetings are not really crisis events. Well, sometimes they're crisis events. Depends on how you do your crisis. But I ended up going to a lot of faculty meetings. And like I said, as an administrator, you look at them differently. And you look at them as are they a waste of time? And I don't know to go to any interview, but a lot of people think it's time to find out why. And also we're making decisions and we're voting. We're voting on things that we don't really know if we have that support. So initially it was just looking at meetings. And then as my interest in home night security grew, so did my subject matter. And that was crisis leadership. And so what it is, I reached out to 15 global experts. In fact, one of them should be listening to us right now. I can't give names. And I asked them, I looked at seven different decision-making models, broke them down, deconstructed them into fifth process trade. And I asked them, which of these do you use? And based off of their feedback, I was able to develop a decision-making model. And the reason this is important is because the current decision-making model was actually a 25-year-old decision-making model also created at Wright Pet Air Force Base. So down the road. And that model worked 25 years ago, but it doesn't work now. And because we're no longer making decisions by one person using gut instinct and experience. Because a lot of things that we're experiencing now, we don't have that experience. And so by creating a new model, we can first identify the situation awareness, who should be at the table and the process of decision-making itself. And so that's what the was about. But addition into that, and something that I find really interesting, especially now a day and yesterday that I read about is the stress. And what I meant by yesterday is I read about how a Manhattan ER doctor just committed suicide. And this kind of work is the stress that affects crisis decision-makers. This kind of stress is unlike anything other leaders experience. If a crisis decision-maker makes a bad decision, people die or we go to war. And proper information. And the stress involved in doing that, both on them and in the decision-making process can be overweaving. And for one, two, nine, six, seven. Experiencing it, it's very typical. And that way they can feel comfortable about getting help. So the old model that we talked about, there's been a, I think in industry and business and in the world, there's been a recognition that one guy can't do it alone. One person can't do these things alone. Is that part of what has changed you think in crisis leadership? And we used to look at a leader and say, figure it out, that's your job. And leave them on an island to do it. And so they could make a good or bad decision and we all just had to live with it. And now there's maybe a, is there more of a recognition that with more thought, with more input a person from others, that maybe have expertise that a leader doesn't have, that that's okay. And for them to make a better decision, is that part of what's changed? Absolutely. The other model, and I'm not saying that the model was bad, the model just really well 25 years ago. The other model was the leader, I mean, this is the model actually says this. And so they think, when have they experienced this before? If they've never experienced it before, I can do research and revisit. So it's like a feedback loop until that process is like, okay, now I know what I'm gonna do. Now let's do it. As opposed to a group of people sitting around a table. Now the people at table depends on the crisis itself. For example, if we had an active shooter event in a school, we might want the school counselor. We may want the janitorial staff. We may want a different set of people at the table. It's not necessarily the highest paid people at the table because somebody that works, a custodial worker is going to know, say, some different paths to get out of the building or some things that the principal would not know. Yeah, that definitely takes a lot of different perspectives to manage through a crisis. Let's, so we've gotta take a break, pay some bills. We'll be back in just about one minute. Hold on everybody. Aloha, I'm Catherine Norr, the host of Much More on Medicine on Think Tech, Hawaii. Much More on Medicine is an opportunity to learn about all aspects of health care. I talk with guests about medical and alternative care treatment, insurance, medication, surgery, rehabilitation, prevention, and much more. We are streamed live on Think Tech biweekly at 3 p.m. on Wednesdays. Thanks so much for watching our show. We look forward to seeing you then. Mahalo and Aloha. Hey Aloha everybody, welcome back to the studio. We're talking about crisis leadership and I know that you've probably seen different examples of that from your mayor, from your governor, from our president lately. We're trying to figure out what's changed and why. Dr. Arosis with us today and we're just getting into some of these traits from the model we used to have versus a model we have today. And maybe we're not as, I guess, reliant on a leader to bring us through a crisis. Crisis is situational. And just because a guy can figure out what to do in one instance, maybe a person can figure out what to do in one instance. Maybe they can't figure out what to do in every instance and they've got to get more help. So let's talk about the new model, Terri, that sort of some of these traits that you discovered that maybe we could pick out who's a good crisis leader when we need them. The traits really worked with three different areas. One is situational awareness. When you're going into a crisis, what are the capabilities of the organization or the people that are making the decisions? What are the laws surrounding? Like you can't just go and take over a school to use for relief. You have these stakeholders. So it's all, when you go into the situation, what to experience. And then of course the second one, which was the group dynamics and it takes a team. And the makeup of that team is going to decide whether or not your options are well thought out if they're valid, if you played them through. And then the last thing is actually the decision making and that's making those decisions. In this case, ranking them proved to be a really good idea because you may have a team of 10 and five of those people, you may choose their first favorite answer but of the other remaining five, it may be their second favorite answer. And so you really get a big picture when you go out with that decision to do that, you know the kind of support you have. So looking at more than just gays and nays raising up a hand to say yes or no, you're getting a fuller picture and with that support you can move forward with that decision with confidence. Is time a factor, crisis always seems to me it wanna be, you know, it's all of this immediately we've gotta do something, right? And some people are really good in the heat of the moment in the heat of battle, things like that and some crumble, they know they fail. The time that's needed, did that come into play at all for making a decision or for being a good leader in a crisis, learning how to slow down instead of speed up maybe or? Time was absolutely relevant. And it surprised me because I expected the feedback for the decision process to be something more gut reaction, something like, okay, we've done this before this is how we're going to act. But in fact, they did choose, you look at, explore all the options and you rank the options and it seemed much more time taking than maybe what you would expect. But again, we're talking about people that may die, you know, the victims that are involved in the loss of loss of life, loss of land, you can't just make those quick decisions without taking into consideration all the options. So while I expected it much probably like you that the response would be much that you would make more timely fast answers, responses it showed based off of these experts that it's much more thought out. Is, do you have a guess or any data on like how many of our leaders are good crisis leaders? Is it a, is it a one out of 10? Is it, you know, should the world really be worried or will they get together and figure this out? So there's a secret that many of them do. If they're not confident with their choices, they look to the next, to the next biggest person. So they get blamed if they make a bad decision. So for example, if I'm say, you know, the mayor of Dayton, Nan Whaley, and I want to decide whether or not to lock down the city. And I'm afraid of the repercussions. I may look to Columbus or Cincinnati, the next biggest cities and see what decisions they make because I did do it. And we're both making a bad decision. All of the focus, the media attention is going to be on the bigger cities. So I'm just using them as an example. Nan Whaley is amazing. She's done a lot of great things for Dayton. I think she's a great crisis leader. And we've had our share of crisis over the past year. Yeah, it, it, it's interesting. Yeah, it kind of, it's something to be a little bit worrisome if we have, you know, it's like having a group think problem, right? Where all the leaders who aren't sure, look at one who is and then they all follow that path. So that, you know, it's like, well, that's what they did. So that's what we'll do. That's an interesting dilemma. But I guess, you know, given, you know, a weak leader who can't collaborate with his team or doesn't trust them or something, obviously he's going to have to make a decision, you know, from somewhere. So looking at what others have done, maybe from a similar circumstance could be, I guess valuable. I mean, it's kind of like, if it happens to be that you're following someone who made a smart decision, then you're, you're lucky. Are you teaching crisis leadership as well? Is that an element of the work that you guys do at the university? I am teaching a Homeland Security course that involves crisis decision making. I teach a leadership class that takes all these same leadership skills and pulls them together to work for crisis or non-crisis situations. And I teach a few other classes. Do, did you, are you working this decision model into your book, into any of the characters? No, I don't, but I should. They're FBI, you know, the people, the agents are not really the decision makers. So she just, in this case, she just goes and does whatever she wants. I see, okay, okay. Are there, are there other opportunities to share the model that you've forwarded? I mean, are there, are there some other places or some other teaching or things that have sprung up around that to sort of take that forward? Because I mean, this is something that obviously we have a lot of maybe officials today who have never had to manage in a crisis. And so that, you know, the leadership model, suddenly put their hands on it and say, here's what I need to learn how to do, could be valuable, I think. There is, you know, the work has been published. So you can Google me and find the publication that talks all about this. I think at my university webpage, I even have a link to a PowerPoint presentation for those that like pretty pictures. And, you know, anybody that wants to reach out to me, I'd be happy to work them through, to help them to learn about it. And I was thinking, Andrew, you know, this is my first time visiting with you, but if you want me to maybe do this a couple more times, then maybe we should like send me to Hawaii in the middle of the winter and really, you know, work with your people, maybe at workshop, hit the beach. I get a lot of that. I imagine that. Well, we used to do, we used to have the shows only in the studio, so they had to be live. And so, you know, now we're doing everything virtual, which has been fun, but I'd love to get you out here to teach, maybe an in and for guard session, our NDIA group, AFSIA, we have a lot of opportunity out here to share. And, you know, we are on an island, so we don't, a lot of the people here have to travel to the mainland to get education, to get classes, you know? So if you're coming to Hawaii now, I don't know if I can get your trip funded, but if you're coming, let me know it will definitely get you in front of some folks. So, you know, you don't really have to be there. If you want to do something like this, I would be happy to at any time. I do want to bring up one of the things, when I was in the Dallas, giving the talk on this at Congress, I did have a lot of people talk to me about using this as a crisis management plan. And so the idea was, I mean, it was like this big kind of group session after my talk, people from different organizations like AT&T and the Mercedes people, and they're like, well, how can we use this? And so together we worked on this concept of going through the model and using it for different scenarios and for the organization that they may experience. So for example, I mentioned earlier about schools with an active shooter, go through that scenario and then as a simulation and then as this team works together on different simulations that could happen for that organization, you do that with the idea that you will know who you need to contact, who are the stakeholders, what are the numbers you need to know, what are the rules, et cetera. And that way, if you do have a crisis event, you can pull up that notebook with these different simulations and find the one that closely aligns with the event that you're experiencing and that will save then hopefully time, money, lives, whatever the case may be. So using this model as an organization crisis management plan is something that I think is would be of value. For example, if we experienced, as I just say, we have three minutes to close so maybe I should shut up and let you talk. No, no, we're good, this is great. I love this whole idea. This is a great idea for getting this information out, finding a way to share it. I love the situational applications. I think that's where a leader who's faced with a crisis that they are not prepared for, that's when they really need some different type of training and that's when they have the least amount of time to get it. So teaching about it situatiously, I think it's a great idea. I hope some folks that are watching this today will reach out and grab your paper and we can find you on LinkedIn. Where else can we find you at the university? Find me at the university, yes. I did do my postdoc at the VA, Veterans Administration Medical Center in Dayton in the simulation center. So a lot of the ideas that I have in terms of decision-making and crisis leadership stems from my experience there at the VA. So I wanna give them a shout out. Awesome, thanks. Terry, thanks so much for joining us today. Thanks for sharing, it's great information. I hope people take advantage of it because you don't really wanna wait until the crisis hits you to go figure out what to do and here's some help right in front of you. Thanks so much, we'll talk again soon. Thanks everybody, stay safe and wash your hands, aloha. All right, we're all clear. Hey, thanks, Eric. Wow, yeah, I didn't have my chat window.