 Welcome! We're here to talk today about a set of usability tests that we did back at the University of Minnesota back in May. This was the first sort of formal usability testing we have done with Drupal 7. We had done another set of formal usability testing a couple of them actually with Drupal 6 back in 2008 and 2009. But what we wanted to do is also test Drupal 7 because we did a bunch of work in Drupal 7 to try and address some of the issues we found back there. So we'll talk a little bit about that here. So with me is I'm Angie Byron or webchickonjupal.org. I'm here with Brad Bowman or beer ADB, Jen Lampton or Jen Lampton, and Boyan Summers or Boyan. So this was the team who came down for doing the usability testing. We had representation from the University of Minnesota. We also had Boyan Summers who is one of Drupal, the Drupal Project's UX leads. Darmesh is another usability specialist who works at Acquia. Jen Lampton does a whole bunch of training with Chapter 3 and so she's very cognizant of the kind of things that new users bash their face against. I also came in my capacity as a Drupal 7 core maintainer because that was very interesting to hear like what you know what all over work did. Brad is also a member of the usability team. David Rothstein is a core developer who did a bunch of work on the D7UX stuff and then Erica Stendrick a creative lead, so a designer. We all sort of got together to try and bring our observations to the table. So what have we been up to? What were we up to in that week? This is us goofing around around a table. The lab facility is kind of interesting. It's like you sit in a room like a small room and then there's one way glass and you can see what participants are doing and you have like a feed of what their eyeballs are looking at and also like you know what what they're saying on the microphone and it was interesting to like hear them get progressively more and more frustrated but we'll talk about that later. So why usability? Why do we care about usability? We basically care about usability because that's you know that's sort of what makes Drupal fun to interact with. That's what you know brings new people to the project and that sort of thing and so the way that the testing was done is that the person was in the room alone and they were asked to think out loud as they were doing things so in other words like you know they'd say okay I'm supposed to change the color of this thing so I think I'm going to go under appearance and oh there it is right there you know or I'm supposed to create a piece of content maybe go under help you know or whatever that kind of thing and just talk through their process and where they're getting stuck and stuff like that. Why do we care about usability? Has anyone seen this graphic before? Okay so Drupal kind of has this reputation of being a little bit hard to learn and so these are the learning curves for popular CMSs and you can see you know WordPress kind of does that and Joomla does this and you know ModX does this and then Drupal kind of goes up and it becomes this cliff that people hang themselves from and a bull those are shoveling bodies off. Yeah so we're trying to avoid like this perception we're trying to make Drupal so that you know people who aren't you know as embedded in the project as we all are can enjoy it as well. So the goals of the testing were to validate the solutions to the Drupal 6 problems that we came up with. We also wanted to start really early because Drupal 8 had just opened up in you know a couple months prior and this would give us like a great starting point to know what issues we needed to fix. I think I told my so we tested eight participants and so it's interesting about these participants is everybody but one of them had no previous experience with Drupal but they had used other CMSs or Dreamweaver or that kind of thing so these were web developers these weren't like you know random people off the street these were people that directly in our target audience so these are people who build websites and then we wanted them to try Drupal and see what they found and so for the most part we looked at the site builder persona we weren't testing like the DX of Drupal or some of the developer features but but yeah so it was a pretty pretty awesome group of people. We asked we asked them to do a number of tests tasks and basically we gave them this mockup image and we said you know go ahead and create the about us page of this you know site that you have here you know change the background color create a little block on the sidebar back sort of thing. When you when you write up these tasks you can't actually use any terminology that would clue them in so you know you have to you know basically point and say okay can you put this this sponsor thing right here on the page and then they would have to look at the interface and sort of figure out from there you know what how they wanted to do that and I'll hand it off to Brad here to talk a little bit about some of the past usability studies that we've done and sort of the work we did in Drupal 7 to combat that. Yeah so as Angie said in the past we done usability studies we did it at the University of Minnesota back in 2008 and also the University of Baltimore in 2009. So some of the things that some of the things that we were dealing with in this test were things that were problems that we found before so I'm just going to you know quickly cover some of the things that we found before so you kind of have some perspective on what we were coming into for this round of testing. One of the things that we found in previous rounds of testing is on the create content screen the default content types in Drupal 6 didn't really make sense to people a lot of people were thinking of a with page they were thinking of you know not just the content on the page but everything that surrounds that as well and then with story I think a lot of people didn't really know what to make of that they either just didn't know usually or some people would say it was like a like a multi-page piece of content so they expected it I mean almost like the book module or something like that where you could click through multiple pages of something you were creating. If they did actually choose which content type they wanted they were presented with this screen which has a couple issues the first is the the menu settings is really prominent in most cases when you create content you don't actually want to put it in a menu item so people you know they click into that and you know sort of be overwhelmed when they were trying to create content the other is the split summary cursor right up there which has pretty cool functionality but it's not something that we really want to expose to most users you you does anybody know how that works in Drupal 6 you basically like click the button in the form where the field like cuts in half and the idea is that the top is supposed to be the teaser for the content and the bottom is supposed to be the main content but people would click that and they just see the body field get cut in half and they'd have like no idea what they were supposed to do with that so I mean a lot of people thought it was really cool and would sit there and click back and forth for a few minutes but very few people actually understood what it was supposed to be. Another issue is the collapsible field sets there were kind of two different things that you saw there the first is that people saw that they were links and they were editing content and they didn't want to lose the context of of inputting things in their content so they wouldn't click it the other is that people got how it worked but thought it was really important so they'd go through and click every single collapsible field set and look at what's inside of it and you know there are things like authoring information and you know revision options and things like that but the majority of people just don't care about. Going back to the menu so it's really prominent on the edit page and then you click into it to create a menu item and this is what you get if you look at this this form field that has like every like all of Drupal's menu options in it including everything under the administrative section so you know a user would go to put something in a menu and they'd have this drop down with hundreds of options including you know things in the administration section so you know who really wants to like create a node and put it under the administrative section like there may be a use case for it somewhere but it's not something I think that we want to expose to the majority of people. Another one this is this is the screen that you get after you install Drupal. It's basically a big wall of text and in general people don't really read giant walls of text so that's one problem but even if they did read this giant wall of text we give them links to different sections of the site like create content or the administrative section and things like that and we teach them that you know this is how you get around Drupal this is how you do task in Drupal and then as soon as you create a piece of content and promote it to the front page this screen gets taken away for good so people install Drupal you know they learn to get around using this page and then as soon as they put anything there it's wiped out and they have to relearn how to do the things that they've just learned how to do. This is the screenshot of the administrative section it's just it's really overwhelming there are tons of options here a lot of them the majority of users you know don't want to know about or don't care about things like actions being above the fold or post settings RSS publishing you know this is something that the majority of people don't really care about and we're just we're giving everyone this information with the same prominence so it just becomes overwhelming for a lot of people also I mean if you compare these two slides the actual I mean the actual layout is pretty similar and in both cases it's just a giant wall of taps so you're really making people pay a lot more attention than they should have to I think. Another problem is what we call the node orphanage after testing in Drupal 6 it's basically if you create a node in Drupal 6 and you don't put it in a menu there's no way to get back to that content well there's only one way it's through the administrative section here clicking that content link and you'll get a list of content from there but otherwise you know there's no you're just on this random page there's no menu item a lot of people would create content and then immediately think that that content was lost or have no idea how to get back to it and I believe Angie is gonna talk about fix this for Drupal 7. Hi I'm back. Yes so this is a bit about like what we try to do to combat these problems in Drupal 7 so when you install Drupal 7 it looks like this and this is basically you know so some of the things that we did for instance we took that administrative page that was sort of all over the place on the admin link we put it all at the top and sort of split it out we also reorganized the information architecture so it's more task-based so when people are you know doing something with content we put all that stuff under one area when they're doing something with configuring their site we put that all under a separate area so you're not looking at the you know content and then switching between oh you know in this list of five things content is the one that actually lets me manage content but post settings and RSS publishing or things I'm gonna set once if ever and never look at again and then we have the contextual links this is to allow us to you know if I'm looking at a block in Drupal 6 the way to configure that block is to go back go to admin site building blocks find the block in the list click the configure link twiddle something and then click save and then by the time I've done that I have no idea what I was doing when I happen to see that thing on the block that needed fixing so contextual links was an attempt to fix that so now you look at the thing you click here click configure block and you get right in there we also added the shortcut block a shortcut bar and an attempt to appease sort of like power users who you know you know memorize URLs and just type them in or that kind of a thing and basically you know because there are sometimes more clicks to get to pages that you got to before by you know just going to the admin page and going right there this was an you know an ability to sort of like take the most frequently access pages and stick them in an easy bookmark thing and that's configurable user role we also made a number of changes to the create content page so the first thing over there is we renamed page and story to article and basic page because nobody knew what a story was and again that page they thought was the entire page from the top left or the bottom right of the browser window we also added the seven theme so the you notice that these two things look different from each other because of both the overlay and the seven theme and that's an attempt to create stark visual contrast between you're looking at your site or you're doing something to maintain your site we also made the story content type very different or so the article content site very different from page because in Drupal 6 page and story are both just title and body and that's it there is no difference to them whatsoever visually at least while you're creating it when you get done creating it there's a subtle difference which is one shows up on the front page and shows author information the other one doesn't so we say let's make it very different so we added a tags vocabulary you can see we also added image uploading there so it's very clear like this is for article kind of things this other one is for pages we got rid of the teaser splitter made that just a little subtle link on the body field that you click if you need it and we replaced all of that you know huge chunk of collapsed field sets that was sort of mystery meat you didn't know what you were getting into you kind of popped in there with the vertical tabs pattern and that allows people to see not only what the settings are that are available but also what they're set to so they don't actually have to click into something unless they need to see it so you know let's let's talk about the positives with that because you know we did a lot of work in Drupal seven it took a long time so let's find out if it actually worked or not so some of the stuff did for example when we asked people to add content they were able to get right there they found it and it's funny actually this circles like all of the places in a default installation that you can get to the ad content screen so apparently we wanted people to be able to get there but they did struggle with that in triple six a lot so these are some of the comments that people said you know it's pretty simple straightforward when they're asked how it was to do that task so you know that worked up pretty well the one exception though is if some people come at this kind of like and you know people use Dreamweaver especially come at these tasks of like create a about us page with like oh I mean I'll create the menu item first because they're thinking in terms of like I want to create my site structure when they did that they didn't fare as well because I don't know if you've ever tried to do that but it's it asks for things like a path and if you try and just enter something in it says that path doesn't exist yet and it's kind of messy but anyway but if they found the ad content first page first they did really well with this task everybody got this distinction so they understood that when they wanted to create an about us page they create a basic page they would not create an article they wouldn't deliberate between the two of those so that change seem to be really well they love the color module these are some of the designs that they made aren't they all beautiful especially like that like GeoCity special one over there that's that's pretty cool so you know they they said that that finding their way to appearance was really easy in contrast to finding themes because themes in Drupal 6 were under site building right along with modules and like 15 under other things so they found it really easy to find out how to do this and so this was some of the comments they said it was like oh that's cool you know people really like the color module but something that's interesting is what color module does in Drupal 7 particularly is it has this sort of interactive preview thing here so as you change things up in the interface then it changes it down here as well people love that but then the problem was that it set their expectations they expected to find that everywhere else so they expected that when they for example create a piece of content hit preview they wanted to see it like that they wanted to see what does that look like in the context of my entire site they wanted to see what a block would look like before they turned it on in the context of their larger site so preview was a big thing overlay in toolbar despite many angry comments in the issue queue seem to have tested really well people found the toolbar right away they thought it was very well organized they were able to find what they needed and then most people got that you know you could stay in the admin context and then close out of it when you were done but there's one person who kind of got fixated on that and thought you had to click on a link click the overlay close click on another link click the overlay closed so you know if they had had a little bit longer to to work on that that might have helped but but but in general it did it did what it was intended to do which was make it clear when people were in an admin context when they weren't some of the first impressions people said was Drupal is really simple it's clearly laid out there's a lot you can do not very cluttered what we did is in the first minute or so of the test we just asked them to just explore you know take five minutes or about five minutes it was like two minutes just click around we watched what they did and they sort of go through the menu items and stuff and then we'd ask them what do you think and so they were all pretty positive about it at least at first because then the trouble started I'll hand it off to Jen and she'll tell you a little bit about the things that weren't tested so well okay so there were a lot of little problems but I'm just gonna kind of recap on the biggest one so we ran into the first one is Drupal terminology this is not a new problem there's something we've known about for a long time is there are a lot of words in Drupal that mean things to us as people are familiar with Drupal and maybe mean something else to people outside the Drupal community sometimes people come into Drupal with preconceived understandings of what these words may mean and sometimes the words had absolutely no meaning to them at all so a couple examples are things like dashboard everybody expected the dashboard to contain an administrative place where they could do everything on their site things like structure meant different things to different people everybody's used that word before but not in the context of building a Drupal site and then words like module we're really confusing to everyone some people thought maybe with experience with other content management systems that that was something like a block and a whole bunch of people had no idea whatsoever so when people were struggling with it we went in and asked them like what do you think a module is and there these are some of the answers we got something that goes on the home page that you click on so maybe a button and then ha ha I don't know which is great and then some people just you know I have no idea what that is so expecting people to click on a link to find something specific when they don't even know the word in the link was was also kind of problematic theme and region names so this is the kind of thing that once you understand how a theme works you understand that there's different ways you can convict your blocks within a theme you understand that different parts of themes have different names for somebody who doesn't understand how the system works at first they don't know what a default theme is let alone the name Bartik so trying to get someone to get that was was really painful so you have a little video here for you um let's see I'm pretty sure Bartik and seven I think I was on Bartik okay sidebar oh my god um header help highlighted okay I don't want it to be featured because I'm pretty sure that's like the welcome block so oh chips yeah what does that mean footer okay I don't want it to be footer I'm pretty sure it's sidebar the first thing on the sidebar so my goodness um which one is which one am I on seven or bars Bartik sidebar oh my gosh okay well I'll try this one I wish you could preview what I'm doing there should be a little preview preview button so a pretty good example what's biggest thing we realized is that when we asked people to create this little area of sponsor content every single person now that we gave them five ways to add content of course just went to create content so people didn't differentiate between block content and page content as being something distinctly different so blocks in Drupal are always an administrative thing right you go under admin site building you build a block you put it where it goes but every single person thought of that as content which is something we haven't thought of before okay so so one of the kind of more overarching problems that we saw is that users kind of expected visual feedback of their changes as they're going to the different site building tools they're kind of getting used to that I don't demonstrate blocks or something like that you can actually see you know some of the things that you're doing and they're kind of focused on the end result you know what it will look like in the front-end side and Drupal as a whole doesn't really accommodate well for this model an example of this is kind of in the block section as as the previous participant the video kind of you know they asked for a preview and when people see kind of the administrative interface they do not really see how the options that are shown there relate to the front-end website and you know we kind of have some tools to bridge this gap for example with blocks we have the demonstrate blocks page where you kind of see where stuff goes but for other parts in Drupal for example the menus you don't really have this model you can't really view where a menu goes and when people got to for example this page and they saw the options this is there they were confused where these menus would go and quite often we had people that thought you know we asked them to put something in the tabs on top basically pointed to you know that's where we want this link to the about page to go and they saw these options and they were like I don't know where to go and they often tried navigation which doesn't actually help you have to pick main menu so there were some confusion about the terminology as well there so something like a demonstrate menu page here would really help so so the demonstrate blocks page when they actually got to this page they were like I want to add like a block here you know they were clicking on the yellow part saying like that's where I want my block to go and this is kind of in line in the model that people kind of want to perform actions on the front-end or at least on their actual website rather than you know being a part of some some administrative context contemporary this this was a whole other issue when people created content and they click the preview button it actually shows up in the overlay so you know the thing that they're creating opens up in the administrative context and I kind of confuse people they were like they often actually missed it even they didn't see where where did my preview go and and other than that the actual preview there's a trim version and a full version that wasn't clear either so yeah there's a whole lot we can do to improve that modules so so one of the the later tasks that we did is to extend through this is really something that we introduced in triple seven we introduced the ability to kind of like update it with FTP and just upload it and we thought we were testing this screen that was really our expectation but it turned out it wasn't really what we were testing we're kind of testing whether people understood that you could extend through and you know both extend it with conflict modules but also enable existing modules in core and this whole process is a bit awkward when people come to the module page they're immediately overwhelmed and they don't really notice some of the important links there important information there and turn to kind of scrolling down the list trying to figure out what it's about and this kind of makes Drupal come off as as limited you know the biggest strength of Drupal is obviously its content space like the ability to extend it and we don't really inform them that well about this strength so let me show a quick video of the user trying to do this trying to understand what it's about not sure actually okay what do you think you would see if you would click on well actually I would think it probably like the website outline but I mean I saw that on a different page but that's what I think of when you think of modules like like the different styles of the website so well let's click on modules and see what's there and see if that how it compares to what you were expecting oh okay so now we're just you contributed model to extend Drupal's functionality is this what you thought you'd see no yeah I don't know which like how would I find a webform maybe I'd have to like read through my eyes a lot I think but like maybe I have to read through all these and try to see which one is the one kind of that I'm looking for read them all through yeah like read all these descriptions like I would I mean I would hope that it be like something on here under name but it's not yeah so so we asked people to basically install webform obviously didn't know just yet new module link and that seems pretty much a pattern on really busy pages that for example the action links kind of get missed but when they did get to Drupal.org to kind of find that particular module they were confronted with this and this listing just doesn't help it's it's it's really difficult and they they often just miss the ability to you know do a lot of good searching so to show another video kind of to show the importance of that that they're missing that well I was on the right page I knew it I was on the right page I knew it registration registration form no great one you know what I'm on here I feel like I need to create one I'll create one okay module developer just want a simple button add a web form okay maybe well I was on the right page I knew it registration registration form no great one you know what I'm on here I feel like I need to create one okay so one of the things that you saw is she didn't actually know this the search field and that form is one of the few that is actually in that actual page it's like number five or six something like that so she could have just scrolled down and see it but she was kind of like hypnotized by you know the form to ability to search for it or at least filter down but then she missed the most important field on that which is obviously the search text area so no that's that's one of the things that we can optimize on the door you know work on that and improve that field to kind of you know bring that forward more and when people got to this page we saw one interesting thing is that like on top you have the kids instructions which looks an awful lot like get instructions so yeah people went there got like oh yeah that's that's gonna help me and when they get to that page they see this it's not good it's not where I'm supposed to be so yeah we had to relabel that and it was actually injured or already but again there's more problems when they're trying to install module when they get to this page or at least this part of the page they're unsure what version they need they often kind of resulted just using the top one which in many cases help but in some case when they had the wrong module they were installing a triple six version and it's only when they got to the part in the installer where it gives feedback where you have the right version is when they understood that they were downloading the wrong one so there's definitely something we can do it to kind of improve that relation between you know browsing for modules and getting the right one additionally the download options the target easy and zip they yeah they just just pick one didn't really make sense to their differentiation there and some people were like I don't know if I can get the target easy to kind of work on this busy so yeah there were there were some problems there and a lot of this this part of the screen was kind of picked randomly so there's there's room for improvement there and right so in summary there was a lot of Drupal specific terminology that really seemed to trip people up and we asked them to perform some basic tasks and people really liked the few places we did have visual representation of what was actually going to happen but then they expected that everywhere else so everywhere we had a visual representation that wasn't accurate or no visual representation whatsoever people seem to get really confused or frustrated and not know how to proceed and a differentiation between blocks and content was also something people had a really hard time with and downloading and installing modules was near impossible the way our setup was configured at the lab is that every person was allowed to call the help desk they had a phone on their desk that called in to us and so we had one person who was designated as a help desk and every single person who went through this usability study had to call the help desk there was nobody was able to complete all the tasks without help and in the end when we asked people what they thought about if they would use Drupal again one girl actually said well is the help desk always available because we were so great that you know she wanted all the time and we had a after the whole thing was over we had a period where we got to go in and ask people what they thought about Drupal after that actually had a chance to use it so in the beginning we let them poke around without actually trying to perform any tasks and they thought that it was really great easy to figure stuff out when we came back at the end and said okay well now what do you think their perspective had changed a little bit they said that it you know it was really hard people struggled with it one person thought she would need to ask somebody who was a little bit more technical to get her to help her through it and yeah if you know what you're doing it'll be fast and you can get right through it if you don't know what you're doing it's a little shaky and confusing at first but once you get familiar with it it would be fine so that and then of course not as user-friendly as I thought after you try to actually accomplish some tasks and the good thing is that everybody even though they thought that it was hard to perform some of the tasks they could see that Drupal was really customizable that was the number one word they had all chosen to describe Drupal but they also were allowed to choose out of a bunch of different words to describe their experience they also choose words like confusing and time confusing and too technical frustrating and overwhelming so even though they could see that there's a lot of really good things about Drupal they did also have some less than favorable words to use for it and so this is a representation of we let them choose how easy is Drupal and how valuable is Drupal so everybody said you know it was probably a little bit harder on the usage size than it said been expected but they also saw that it was also going to be extremely valuable so good and bad yeah so what's next well first I mean just fix everything we found right no problem no but seriously obviously you know working on the issues that we found you know we need to we need to do additional testing you know a lot of the things that we did in this round of testing showed that you know changes that we've made in the past were helpful and other things I mean change there were other areas were changes that we've made in the past we're not effective so as we continue to make changes just continuing to test and make sure we're on the right path is important another thing is obviously attracting more designers and UX people to the project and having them help us I think I think everybody would say that we don't have enough designers and UX people in Drupal right now so finding a way to to get them interested in helping and if you want to help there's a handful of ways that you can do it everything that we found or validated is should be tagged in the issue queues with the UNM or UMN 2011 tag so if you're interested in looking at the statuses of any of those issues you can filter on the issue queue by that there's a usability group on groups.drupal.org I recommend signing up and then following what's happening there there's also a Drupal community initiative page for usability which is basically we have actually administers that and it has information on what the UX teams priorities are and what's going on in that area and also there's a user experience spread on Friday so we'll be doing some work on some of these issues there as well and thank you to some of the sponsors for this the University of Minnesota for giving us lab space, Drupal Camp, Twin Cities for helping us out with some airfare and stuff like that and Crimson and Aquia as well for donating as well as a ton of individual sponsors so all right guess we have yeah so we have a few minutes for questions five minutes I realize the session is mainly about Drupal going forward but based on your usability studies of Drupal 6 or 7 do you have any recommendations for modifications for the Drupal sites we're doing now stuff we should be aware of modify modules yeah what can we do now for Drupal 7 to improve it based on what you know well in Drupal 6 you know you install things like the admin menu and that will get you a toolbar at the top you install in some kind of administration theme that will get you front-end back-end separation things like that there's a I don't know the name of this module but there's a module that on the like say the menu settings page will let you actually create a piece of content what's that I should have said Drupal 6 this like for 7 for 7 yeah cool so in 7 I mean a lot of what we found was about brand new users who would not be brand new site building users who would not necessarily be your customers so your customers probably never gonna have to find the modules page themselves and things like that the actual content editing stuff that actually did test pretty well I mean we didn't hit a lot of issues with that kind of stuff but but for some of the the people who the biggest like content editing issue we found is like blocks and also with when they go into the menu first and then try to create a piece of content so there is a module that sticks a node ad form at the bottom of that menu page which is awesome but I can't remember the name of it but someone will probably tweet it or something and then for the block stuff a lot of people use things like panels or display suite so that your entire page is just bits of content around the page that's definitely the mental model that people have coming into Drupal it's core doesn't core makes you kind of differentiate between whether something's a node or a block or a view or a block with a view in it or you know like that kind of thing but the way people get like definitely expect the web to work is just little bits of content I didn't know that that was overly helpful we didn't get a chance to test a range of things oh there's one other thing which is there's this Google summer code project that integrates a web browser like a browser functionality into Drupal so when you go into the modules page instead of having to do that janky thing where you like copy and paste the URL into the the text field it actually pops up kind of along the lines of WordPress it pops up like a big like form where you can like search for modules and you see a view of modules and some statistics about them and stuff like that that's something you know I'd love to see an initiative to get that something like that into Drupal 8 because that would that would be really powerful but so there are people in contrib actively working on on some of this stuff you know and the usability team is working on some of it as well but you know a lot of a lot of the bigger issues are more targeted towards site builders than than contentors it's tricky to usability test content editing experience because in many cases people will customize that interface for whatever tasks their clients are trying to do so it's it's hard to like you know test that aspect if it's a lot easier to test you know are we are we getting the the people who will actually build Drupal sites to figure out Drupal so don't know so there's also the terminology problem there's a module called string overrides that'll let you find anything funny like taxonomy and change it to category so there are some things that you can do to help with my question is about graphics and iconography in core in general I don't know whether there it seems to me like there is there is or was a concerted effort not to use iconography in Drupal core that I think that came out specifically with getting seven into core I feel like the theme that seven is kind of based off of a little bit had a lot of different icons at the top in my right or wrong about that as far as that being a kind of a policy or an unwritten rule and if either way is that something that you know we would consider changing well one of the decisions we made with the Drupal seven was obviously in terms of resources in terms of icons I mean we had to make a lot of icons but additionally to that I mean yeah it was initially in the proposal for the shortcut bar to have icons next to the menu items and we decided against that because we feel it's it's probably unlikely for module developers to create icons for their modules and therefore kind of expecting them to do that out of the box would be kind of I don't know asking for something they they don't like doing and in addition to that it you know what tends to happen with more modular systems that whenever you do something like you know making it more using more icons is that they get a lot of dummy icons if you look at other systems that try to do this you see a lot of dummy icons and I mean that's not really helping so you really need to kind of have that community from the start like you know Apple has that community from the start that people are you know into making good icons but we don't really have that so that's why we decided against it can I just add to that as well on the iconography front I actually contributed to the Drupal seven thing the one of the biggest reasons that we were against putting a lot of iconography in is that icons are only really useful if the icon can work in isolation from the word that represents most of the stuff that's going on in Drupal we have enough trouble describing in words let alone trying to get it into an icon so if you start trying to create icons for all of this stuff actually what you're doing is just creating more visual clutter more cognitive overload and even though again you know like what I say about Drupal seven is that I think we did a really great job of creating the impression of a better user experience and in some places creating a definitively better user experience and I think the testing kind of proved that where you know people at the end were saying you know it wasn't quite as user-friendly as I expected it to be so I think you know that's the first of many steps along the road and I think that iconography can sometimes do exactly the same thing you look at it and you go oh this is going to be easy because there's pictures instead of hard words everywhere and then you start using it and you go I don't know what any of these pictures mean this is actually a problem so that's that's the trick with icons and when to use them yeah so I think we're a couple minutes over time so we should probably wrap it up but thank you for coming