 on a proverb about working together. And we started with the Irish proverb, New New Yorker, Carla Kayla. So there's a nice top and tail to that. So thank you, Magnus. I feel that this is a great room to be in, because if we're talking about digitizing the grids that we all need in our power supply, but the threat of that is actually cybersecurity. So perhaps we've got the right people in the room to talk to each other. And I think there will be lots of questions from the audience. But it just seems pertinent to me to actually speak to Christine, first of all, because if Denmark is so far ahead of all the other countries in terms of offshore wind, and we have a lot to learn in Ireland, and as I said, I think there's offshore wind farms to be built in the very near future, down in Cork, but you have the lessons learned and you've also told us that what really needs to happen is for all of these neighboring countries to work together because the parks need to be cross-border, actually. So can you just speak a little bit more to that since we have partners in the room about what you would envisage for that future? Well, I think that the countries and just basically the framework that we discussed just a minute ago could provide some of at least the framework for the discussions to take place. The industry itself is also driving this basically across Europe sitting down, talking together what is needed for this actually to be realized because it's very difficult. And it's gonna take some time, but the most important thing is that we realize that this is the way forward. This is basically the only way we can decarbonize Europe and a lot more focus has to be sort of put into this now. Until now it's been a question of economy. It's basically the technology was too expensive. So everything was about one member state basically having its own support system. Now it's not so much a question of economy anymore. So now we basically need to sit together finding the right framework for this to continue and the international organization has a huge responsibility to making certain that this is gonna happen. And then the industry, of course, has to be able to deliver. But I think that that's not actually a problem. Okay, great, thank you. So I'll open the floor to questions and if you can, I'll take this lady at the front, she's in second row. Thank you, gentlemen behind her then. Hello, Christine, you mentioned like politicians need to listen. So let's say they do listen and we get a bunch more wind firms. What we do about regulations and following them because we're currently paying millions to the EU because we didn't follow environmental impact assessments and like in waterfare to a wind firm is currently being shut down because planning wasn't followed. So permission of planning wasn't followed. So what do you think politicians should do once they start listening? I think it's very important as we talked about before that you sort of have this dialogue and you have both with consistency and the people have a much more dialogue what actually has to happen to making certain that we actually get the wind farms up and running. We have exactly the same issues in Denmark right away. We see this as one of the major obstacles for actually reaching the goals is public resistance. So everybody in Denmark is talking climate. Everybody loves to be green. We see people are switching their diets away from meat. We're seeing an interest in finding other ways of transportation but when it comes to having a windmill nearby or a PV then nobody really likes it anymore. So we need to have this discussion. We also need to have some hard regulation maybe, harder regulation saying that this is a necessity and then much faster, fast track procedures, planning procedures when we're talking about green technology. Can I follow up on that question? So I think it's a great question and just for yourself Eric because you said that you had cross-party agreement that you were going to meet these goals and you had those targets but they didn't just go in a policy and they were kind of there written down somewhere where no one's following them. They were actually important. So is there lessons that we can learn from Norway in that regard? Yeah, I think that's one of the key success factors. Most of all the parties, maybe a part from one party agreed on this target and they also agreed that we should use the means that we have which are the measures that we have which is the tax system to promote the target, the achievement of the target. And that we have always had very high taxes of course so we have a lot to play with when it comes to the incentive structure. So we can remove taxes and then we have to be incentive. And removing taxes is much easier and more effective than having a grant. Yeah. A grant is based on a government and the government has to issue money to the company that gives out the grant. If you have a tax exemption, you just lose income. It's much easier system, it's more stable. You could also have a bonus malice system that would operate more or less in the same way because then the government expenditures are not involved. You have a malice, you have to pay extra to buy a gasoline diesel car and then you get that is used to finance a bonus to those who buy an electric car. That can be done cost-neutral for the government, for instance. You have a lot of tools. If you have a target and you want to meet the target, you just have to start using the tools. I do have to convince them to have the target. I mean, we will come back to Alec, but I'll just take a couple more questions. This gentleman here and there's another gentleman here after that, we'll bundle them in. Thank you. You can hear me. Thank you. Again, the question is to Christine but perhaps other members of the panel may wish to comment as well. In terms of, you talked about technological advances and obviously one assumes that also means efficiency. And I'm surprised that not to hear more about energy storage and perhaps you might say a word about in Denmark on energy storage, both at grid level or national level and then more particularly about a residential or commercial new build. What's happening there? Okay, can I take another question? We'll bundle those together to take your question, please. I have a deep concern that there is a fundamental flaw at the heart of this discussion and that is statistical reliability. With all due respect to the EA and Copenhagen, I will only have confidence in the reliability of our climate change statistics in Europe when the management of our statistical databases is taken over by Eurostat in Luxembourg. Okay, so I'm not sure any of our panel can address that but we'll note that comment certainly. So if we come back to the issue of energy storage, I know it's addressed to you, Christine, but actually it's something that I wanted to ask Magnus as well because hydrogen wasn't really coming there and hydrogen is a way of storing energy as well in a cleaner greener way. So Christine, if you'd like to come to that first. Well, I could talk 10 minutes or an hour on the hydrogen alone. I think as I just shortly mentioned, this is gonna be one of the future technologies and this is very much where all the focus in Denmark is being put into right now. So I would envisage that we will see some of the first test hydrogen facilities in connection with offshore wind being sort of the next step because hydrogen is basically the way that we see that we will be able to store the energy. And also I think it's gonna be interesting to see whether or not we can engage in a new cooperation with the oil and gas industry because there might be an opportunity to use some of the existing infrastructure basically to transport the hydrogen in the future. So some of the pipelines might be useful for basically getting the hydrogen towards the customers. So this is basically the only thing, power to X being talked about in Denmark now. And I think the politicians here will also will go and engage with them in how to combine the next offshore wind park. Maybe the tendering process has to be connected with facilities that can produce hydrogen. And that's where the support has to go next. Okay, thanks. Thank you, Christine. Magnus, can you speak to that energy storage question? First of all, we are very blessed with the hydro power in the Nordics. I mean, that's really our big battery. And that can be developed further for sure to be more flexible. But then we should also consider hydrogen that will come for sure. But it's also a matter of cost. I mean, I think we have lower hanging fruits that we can use this what we call sector coupling between for example, the heat and electricity system. And actually use the inertia, thermally inertia in buildings and so on. And that should be, and it's actually getting more and more used, but I think we are just starting. I mean, I think we can do a lot. Yeah, but do you think that those developments will happen in time for us to meet those measurable targets? I mean, for example, we need to see that the price volatility will go up so it can actually be part of the revenue. I mean, if you make an investment for storage of any kind, the value must be higher. I mean, the value should go up in time with more wind, for example, as all are to be there. Okay. Thank you, Magnus. And that's another question. Over here, this gentleman, forget the microphone. Well, Valacan, I want to ask the Danish lady and perhaps other members of the panel a question arising from a conference here a month ago which the IIEA were also involved in organizing. During that conference, the Oxford Energy Economist, Dieter Helms, talked about in terms of auctions for renewable power, whether it's solar or for wind or whatever else it might be. He mentioned that it should be based on equivalent firm power, which means that when the wind isn't blowing adequately to generate power and also when the sun isn't shining that the price awarded should be based on equivalent firm power. Is that a practice that's coming in in Denmark or in place else in the Nordic countries? Maybe I can say that, I mean, already, I mean, sometimes I speak with the wind developers and they say they actually project that they get 10% less paid in a number of years from now for wind. I mean, it's actually paid less because when the wind is there, the price go down and when it's no wind, of course, you get nothing. So I mean, and they're in between, you get good pay but I mean, it's actually, it should be taken by the market that is hour by hour. I mean, so the answer is that but still wind is being built with, I would say no subsidies in Sweden for the moment. I mean, they don't calculate for any subsidies but still they build a lot of big wind power, yeah. And is this something that you were talking about the digitization of the grid? If something like that is happening where less power is getting generated and we can tell immediately because it's digitized, is that something where the pay will be flexible for it? Could the digitization assist with that or is it a benefit, I'm not sure? Maybe that's another thing. I mean, it's more, I would say it's more better utilization of the assets. I mean, if it would be transmission lines or energy storage or something like that. So it's better utilization. And now we should not forget that it's very important to connect larger and larger areas. I mean, the more you connect, the less likely is that it will not blow any wind anywhere. I mean, if you connect larger areas, you need less of storage because you have more power transmission. If you talk electricity. Alex, can I bring this to you because the connectivity, if we looked at the Balmoral model, Ireland is very isolated. Other countries are very isolated in terms of, you might be depending on Russian oil, et cetera, but we are very isolated. We have one pipeline at the minute. Is this, are these conversations that have been happening in government? And if we go back to that question that the first lady had, how can we convince the politicians to yes listen and then act on the concerns? Yeah, well, just on the connectivity, that's been a big preoccupation of ours. And in fact, it's all the more relevant now and topical now in the context of Brexit. So that the connectivity that Ireland has, the island of Ireland, don't forget, we have on the electricity side, we have an integrated electricity market in Ireland, on the island of Ireland, North and South. And we need to have our connection and our connectivity to the rest of Europe. And it's essential, so there's initiative with France at the moment, which I think is terrific. And I think we need more initiatives like that to ensure that we have that high level of connectivity, that it's a policy driver for us as well as being something that will actually really pay dividends in terms of cost and for all sorts of reasons, and the variability of wind and solar and all of these issues that we all have to address all the time. So absolutely, that's critical. I mean, what was the question you asked me? Because I was just responding to what he was saying. The second, well, so that's the connectivity. The second question was, we've been discussing, Eric gives the example that the politicians decided all together that this is going to be our goal. And we have that on paper that it's a goal here, but really when a target is missed, what's happening? Political decisions happen kind of over a period of time. And very often when people say, they're politicians because of course, they're politicians is not an undifferentiated thing. There are lots of different politicians. So, and also different with different ideas and different approaches and different levels of commitment and so on. So I think that it's not an undifferentiated thing, but I think more and more of their politicians are realizing now that they have to engage with this because it's a critical economic imperative that we complete, that we adjust hugely the way we consume energy. And big decisions have to be made by government. So very often at conferences people, oh it's about, or people will say, well it's about individual action. Of course it's about individual action, but the system has to facilitate individuals to change. Yes, you cannot expect people, millions of different people just to make all of these separately motivated decisions to do the right thing. The system, the way we configure our system has to facilitate those changes and individual behavior. Magnificate. Maybe just one idea that I personally like, it's not the organization, but me is that we would put electricity tax as a percentage of the spot price on the market, for example, that would make like a gain that when the spot price goes up, it goes real and taxes goes up also. So it's not the same sector kilowatt hour, it's actually percentage of, I mean that could be one way to really make, I mean that would make flexibility and storage more profitable. I mean, as if they dare to do it, the politicians, I wouldn't know if I would do it, but I mean. Good luck, yeah, good luck. One in the, at least it has worked. And I guess it's important to throw those ideas around and trash them out because of the future that's there. Well, I'd like to thank sincerely all of our panelists, Eric Pigenbaum, Christine VanHet, Erwin Greenit, Alex White and Magnus Olufsens for a very, very interesting conversation on sustainability. Thank you all. Thank you. Thank you.