 Okay, we're back. We're live the one o'clock block on a given Monday. I'm J. Fidel. This is stink tech This is this is energy 808 or is it why the state of clean energy? That's what it is Excellent. So Eric van joins us today. He's was originally a lawyer in his earlier life. Am I right about that? I still am. Yeah, okay, and some years ago. He decided to get into energy sort of the way we decided to get into broadcasting and And he's in that chapter now, and it's a it's a great chapter. What made you do that, Eric? Switch to renewable energy It's a long story. I don't want to tell the whole part of it but before I moved to Hawaii I was I was interested in the solar hydrogen economy and thought perfect low or zero emissions and That seemed to me to be the future when I moved to Hawaii I looked around and well Hydrogen wasn't wasn't and still needs work to be done on it to be a viable renewable energy option Solar was a big thing That was right at the the Beginning of the growth and solar is a very exciting time. It was it still is it still is and I decided to get into PV project development I started a company called zero emissions and was able to develop a couple of projects here in Hawaii I was very proud of that that got me into renewable energy policy and advocacy and I formed a trade association called reach and Pursued policy actually up until about a year ago. I've been doing a lot of policy work in the state legislature and with the PUC That's great testifying on bills in the line exactly expressing your policy recommendations and all that right drafting legislation, too Okay, but now somewhere along the line, and you're not the only one you're kind of migrated From energy to climate change and and of course there is a clear connection between the two Right, but can you talk for a moment about the connection and your own migration? Well the the migration to climate change came as a result of everything that I learned and the first 12 years that I was doing renewable energy and What I learned from that I caught the Hawaii microcosm a term that people that are in renewable energy have heard before about Hawaii and What I realized was that Hawaii is the perfect place to study renewable energy and microcosm as a solution for global warming and that's because Hawaii is just big enough to present all of the issues all of the problems all the options that are available for transforming modern modern-day economy from Fossil fuel to renewable energy So it's just big enough to do that and it's just small enough to get a grasp on What are all the decisions that are needed to make that happen? The civic process who are the decision-makers? Yeah, Howard. What are what are their decision-making processes? Yes, and It was the combination of those two things that sort of gave me the Outline the big outline for the book that I wrote called you can reverse global warming Yeah, well, you know it strikes me that you can hardly study energy these days Without seeing down the road how energy is interrelated with climate change You have to look at both of them and you have to see one one as a solution or at least affecting the other Okay, so you you you migrate to the second Actually much larger area because it's global right and you decide you want to write a book about it And that's really the topic of our show the book is entitled reversing reversing global warming And it's a new book book that you published and we want to know What it is and why it is and what you're telling us there Well, it's As I said, it's a book that's based on what I've learned here in Hawaii and for each part of the book I always point to real-life examples here in Hawaii of different things that I'm talking about It would be very difficult to summarize the whole book in our very short conversation Well, let me let me parse it out a little bit. Okay, so, you know, this is what attracted me to the idea By the way, is this book available on Amazon? No, it hasn't been published yet. It's complete You got a scoop then you can if you go to my website Ericquam.com and hopefully that'll appear on the screen. Okay If you go to that site, you can download the first five chapters just just like look inside with Amazon You can also sign up for my blog one can also Get a download of what I think is the most key chapter in the book Called method revealed for reverse and global warming and if I had to say what the book is in total, it's It's not saying here's the solution for global reverse and global warming because the truth is that there are many great solutions for global warming and the reason that there's confusion is that Decision makers generally don't have a framework for making those decisions to adopt the best renewable energy options Persuading themselves. Yes, we want to do this. We're going to make the commitments to adopt those renewable energy options So I'm not calling favorites on any given renewable energy option What I'm suggesting in the book is a decision-making process that decision-makers for example at electric utilities decision-makers that Automotive manufacturers decision makers say at government agencies that are responsible for public transportation That they can use to persuade themselves This renewable energy option has the greatest economic benefits This renewable energy option has the greatest it performs it delivers the energy service Whether it's electric power or transporting people and goods or heating and cooling buildings. It performs This renewable energy option Reduces carbon emissions the most This renewable energy option gives the greatest supply security because it's drawn from Exhaustible renewable resources and this renewable energy option has the presents the lowest risks of The lowest sounds like a lawyer's analysis actually it's very analytical It's very good options and then you compare them and you see how they affect each other and then you make your selections Exactly, but it's you know and really as I was saying I mean I'm really interested in knowing how we do this But because there's so much alarmism going on Maybe that's not the fair word for it. There's so many people are concerned about I'm concerned about you're concerned about it But you know the general feeling is oh my god. This is terrible We are going to have you know This is going to wreck the world and our children and their children are gonna we inherit a world That's uninhabitable and that goes to that book that recently, you know was became a bestseller the uninhabitable world Yeah, the uninhabitable world, which is you know, it's it's a it's a very the very frightening set of set of Set of facts and so, you know I see in what you're saying the need the need to say it the need to at least Address the you know reverse reversing climate change whether we can actually do it It's another big question You spoke before about trying to have metrics and and trying to have people, you know Encouraged by the progress of it and and therefore get on get on right you know the bandwagon But I'd like to break down a little bit. One is Seems to me that there are there are two issues here One is what are all those options because people and government especially government is really not equipped to deal with this They're confused they don't know they have they're not clear on the facts And then when you throw in the Trump administration's denial of climate change that really confuses people now They got a way out. They got a way. They can just leave the scene not even think about it So we have to get the facts straight. We have to get the options straight So that's one, you know part of this one one one layer of it The other layer the other chapter is how do you how do you take action right and how do you get government to fund it? For example, right, you know We we can't take right now these days the smallest step around energy and storage and building the grid out and Spending some money and doing tax incentives on electric cars and the love can't do anything We seem to be locked and so I mean even if we had all the options worked out You know, we still have that second chapter to deal with right so you've made some analysis You've made some charts you want to go through them with us well I'd like to answer your two questions because those are really really great questions and I answer I ask and answer both of those questions in my book. You can reverse the war First thing one of the things that I do in the book is that I Offer a framework for comprehending. What are all the options? I do it across the three major categories of energy uses which are electric power Transportation and heating and cooling Then I break it down into ways that really covers. What are all the energy options that are available to people to energy? decision-makers That's that takes quite an effort to do it I'm not sure that anyone else has ever done that before in a book. I've looked I haven't seen it No, and your background your study here in Hawaii of all these possibilities and issues that really qualifies you to make that analysis Absolutely, because I mean that's the Hawaii microcosm is that is that? Hawaii is just small enough to comprehend. What are all the options and theoretically right theoretically only? It's small enough or it's large enough to actually do something about it But we haven't really seen that in the degree. We need to see it That's that's correct. That's correct and your second question had to do with well, how do we make it happen, right? and that's what Much of the book is about what are what is a decision-making process look like or Setting a goal say of a hundred percent renewable energy not just for electric power, but for transportation and for heating and cooling What is a decision-making process look like or? deciding What renewable energy options deliver the greatest benefits to energy users? and Asking questions like What does? What does the economic benefit of a renewable energy option look like? What are the benefits of different energy options that are available for decision-makers so? Again, the main point of the book is to is to suggest propose based on experience I gained here in Hawaii What is a decision-making process look like so that we are swiftly? Adopting the best renewable energy options so that we actually had stand a chance of reverse and global warming That's what the books about you talk about timing and it's really worth discussing that yeah Seems to me we're already behind the curve We're already late and we're already ready to appreciate the problem We're already late in identifying the options and choosing the options and and finding ways for government to make a decision and fund action and so What about timing I mean are you how flexible and we'd be about timing I mean Problem is if you conclude that with so far behind the curve will never keep keep up We'll never be able to reverse it. What do you do then? Well, that's where I look at take a hard look at decision-making processes in terms of what just kinds of decision-making processes yield Consensus decisions so that there's no resistance to them and when people are in consensus on a decision to do something There's no resistance Things get done things get done fast action Consensus in my observation is not enough by itself that you have to have a leader or a group of leaders Who say okay? We're all agreed on this now. We're gonna go forward now. We're gonna, you know We're gonna document it confirm it ratify it and and and build some political will over it, okay So how do you talk about that? How do we develop the political will how do we develop the leadership who will will take us there? One of the reasons I focus on what I call consensus decision-making processes is because the alternative to consensus decision-making processes or what I call what I call hierarchical decision-making processes and most of our thinking in terms of renewable energy like as in most problems has to do with assumes hierarchical decision-making And I don't put down hierarchical decision-making in my book. I don't talk about it at all because What I do focus on is what kind of decision-making leads to swifter better decisions so that people See the benefits of those swift decisions and want to accelerate the process even more I call that the adoption accelerator. That's a very special chapter in my book, which is how do we create a kind of decision-making process? that forms a positive feedback loop so that The decision-makers seeing the results of their Decisions say that we're great. Let's do more Let's adopt more renewable energy options make better decisions even faster That's that's the essence of the book and they're in a conversation with the community and they share that idea with the community The community responds and encourages them and they go to the next the next step the next cycle You know I I give the book the title you can reverse global warming because I think that there's a role for every person in the community every person on the planet to be heard to Take a role to to what I call start a conversation to To start a conversation to make a decision and to And to reverse global warming now that conversation I talk a lot about who are decision-makers who are the decision-makers and Identify who the decision-makers are in those three areas of energy. Basically. They are Utilities electric utilities for electric power. They are generally public and state agencies for for many transportation options Everything else. It's private enterprises industry industry Absolutely tech companies that are developing my energy tech the right that kind and so their decision-making processes They may look different but to the extent that That That they do make decisions that they look to consensus decision-making kinds of ways within their business within their agency To me that's a that's a process that offer that offers the opportunity for you see Have to back up a little bit And maybe this would be a good time to to look at the graph Well, actually, this would be a good time to take a break. Okay And in fact, we have no time to spare on this, but we're gonna take one minute for a break. Okay, Eric Eric from calm calm Yes, and he wrote a book and it's it's reversing global warming and we we need to explore exactly how that works We'll be right back Hey, loha. My name is Andrew Lanning. I'm the host of security matters Hawaii airing every Wednesday here on think tech Hawaii live from the studios. I'll bring you guests. I'll bring you information About the things in security that matter to keeping you safe your co-workers safe your family safe to keep our community safe We want to teach you about those things in our industry that you know, maybe a little outside of your experience So please join me because security matters, aloha Aloha, I'm Yukari Kunisue the host of the Konnichiwa Hawaii Japanese talk show on think tech Hawaii Konnichiwa Hawaii is all Japanese broadcast show And it's streamed live on think tech at 2 p.m. Every other Monday. Thank you so much for watching our show We look forward to seeing you then I'm Yukari Kunisue. Mahalo Okay, we don't have a minute to waste Eric I'm going to talk about his book and the analysis and some of the charts and graphs you've included I'm reversing global warming. What charts and graphs would you direct us to the the first one that shows the temperature rise? Over the last several millennia that one there it is, right? That came from an article that appeared in nature a little over a year ago Mm-hmm, and it's hard to see but on the very far right side is the spike in global temp Actually, that's a spike for North American temperatures average temperature And you can see that that spike has occurred basically in my lifetime over the last 60 years and over the last 10 years It's gone up as it as much as it did in the 50 years before that water isn't it? Deceptive about this is if you look at the larger picture, you know the pink the pink track of it It seems to be going down, but that's not real. That's not really the point It was until until anthropogenic global warming right now. It's going shooting up. It's shooting up, right and the So here's here's the approach that I took in the book. I look at that graph. It's like This is what I see this is how my statement of the problem that spike on the right side of the graph that's Billions of people More than seven billion people Making energy decisions every day So you've got billions of energy decisions being made every day the decision to turn on the lights in the studio The decision to jump in a car Decision to turn on the stove Decision to power up the computer those are all energy decisions. So you've got billions of people making Probably tens or hundreds of billions of energy decisions every day Third that are most of them are pouring greenhouse gases into the atmosphere So that's the connection between energy and global warming those three elements billions of people Making energy decisions that pour greenhouse gases into the atmosphere How do you address a problem like that? Well, how does one I think Xi Jinping knows, you know Mind you, I don't feel that the Politburo system in China is Is a dictatorship at all? I think he gets plenty of input from his various committees That meet and intensely for years at a time and make recommendations to him So it's not like he's just doing this off the back of his you know by Twitter He's not doing that. He's very, you know deliberate And I think the US could learn something from that about getting there and having Expert committees work and come to a conclusion government accept and act on that Well, you know one thing it strikes me from what you said and I and I we should talk about it is Okay, it starts with billions of people And they're all complacent right now They don't really believe that they can have any effect on things so they keep on doing what they were doing before They don't change their behavior But if I came to you and said a and in the capitalist model I will give you economic incentives or disincentives to change your conduct You know that would probably have an effect on billions of people if I made it attractive enough or unattractive enough In this case the other thing is if I made it against the law For you to emit greenhouse gases not just an economic penalty, but worse And I said, you know if you want to do that you're gonna be in trouble We're gonna punish you in some way there will be sanctions Unless you follow the model of saving the planet. Yeah, I think you could change a lot of conduct that way too. Don't you? No, I don't Know not not democratic. It's just that this is my experience is that Everything you've described I call those making solutions making solutions and In my experience my global experience Me going around to people telling them what they should do or passing laws making them do things Not likely to change the behavior of seven billions of people So what my book is oriented around is the idea of people making decisions because they want to make them They want to make them because they've persuaded themselves This decision is going to make me a wealthier person this decision this energy decision is going to allow me to Decrease my carbon emissions by 90% this energy decision is going to Give me even better performance than I'm getting from the existing the existing energy options that I'm using So it's about giving people a choice giving them a chance a decision an opportunity to make a different energy Decision so the way that goes back to what I was talking about before about billions of people They're not going anywhere. Okay, and And The fact that energy decisions port many energy decisions poor greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. That's a fact, too What's the tractable part about it? The tractable part is? Energy decisions people can change their thinking can change their minds about the energy decisions they make so the first few chapters of the book are a focused attention on On what do energy decisions look like who are energy decision makers? because The key decision makers again as I said our private enterprises electric utilities and other utilities and Government agencies those are the decision makers when they make decisions to make available options that provide Radically reduced carbon emissions and deliver the same performance and Save money so that there's no economic cost to adopting them Then where's all the resistance? There is none and that's the that's the premise for for Swiftly and acceleratingly Adopting renewable energy options to reverse global warming we've known about climate change I mean known in the right Pardon me We've known about climate change for a long time Since at least for me since Al Gore and his movie of the inconvenient truth. Yes And you know you'd think that if we all knew about this we would be on board We would be turning the lights off. We were doing energy efficiency We'd be doing electric cars, even if there wasn't the tax incentive about it But that really hasn't happened. I think you know the state of the state of humanity is it's back to Hobbes and Locke Is humankind perfectible or maybe not? There is a certain level of complacency if I don't have to do it. I may not do it So query in it. What is it 10 15 years since? Inconvenient truth have people moved In the direction you're talking about By themselves recognizing these realities or have they moved less than you would want Well, it's a good question It's it's not a matter of what I want and I think there's a greater consensus in human society that That global warming and climate change are real phenomena. I think there's a broad understanding about their causes where the confusion and and that and that there's Starting to form a consensus, especially this is very noticeable after the IPCC report the most recent one that This is a problem that needs to be addressed. I mean for just for future generations for ourselves and Where the confusion comes in is how what's the how well? That's what your book answers That's that's what my book, you know attempts to answer is is to suggest Again, not to prescribe this option or that option or another option as the solution as the solution or is my To not push on people my opinion about what the solutions are going to our best but rather to Suggest a decision-making process again through which people persuade themselves because when people persuade themselves That this is the best I want this. I'm going to make the investment. I'm going to make the commitment in it things get done that's that's and that's the key to getting out of the confusion into a place where where Adoption of renewable energy options Accelerates to the point where we can make a meaningful impact on first arresting global warming and then reversing it Oh, I don't I agree. There's really two things there first slowing it down to stop it You know no no more increases in temperature and all that and then reversing it, which it may be more difficult scientifically so What don't but don't you think that in order to get to this like state of awareness the state of Addressing the issue individually and collectively we have to change the way our government is looking at this I mean the president the president recently organized a panel of Marginal scientists who would all say there there is no global warming and or there's nothing we can do about it He's actually the government. That's him spending money right and bringing resources to bear to prove up to the world That there is no climate change Don't we have to get over that first because right now if you assume 40 odd percent of the country is behind him You can you can also argue that 40 40 odd percent of the country doesn't believe in global warming either I mean it's really amazing, but How can we create a community of concern about this if we have that kind of hole in the boat? Well Well, I I addressed that in the book again. I go back to that model of When people want want to do things We've seen this we've seen this in solar power here in Hawaii right me People realize that they can get the same electric power maintain the quality vote their electric service and They can save money at the same time even without incentives and They feel that and and they're reducing their own personal carbon emissions Where's the resistance? There is not you don't have to worry about the opinions held by other people and those people that make that decision I'm Those people that make that decision They set an example It's a leadership by example leadership by I do this and I am Demonstrating my commitment to it then presumably the people who are watching me will will be influenced by that and They'll do it too right and then and demonstrated both results And so that's again that also is part of the what I call the Hawaii microcosm now I agree with you that it's not where I wanted to be but The fact is is that We have made a lot of progress on electric power renewable energy for electric power uses and It's the successful examples When a utility makes a decision We're going to adopt a process by which we deliver Electric power of the same quality To our customers at half the cost with renewable energy reduce our carbon emissions by 60 percent and And we by by having the cost to our customers. We double the shareholder value of our company Our elect other electric company is going to pay attention to that Oh, you mean that by sure with the right kind of decision-making process. We can double the value of our of our company Where's the resistance that to doing it the opinions of? whoever Donald Trump the government they can keep their opinions as long as people are doing things doing things and Seeing the the the benefits that that their neighbors that that state agencies that automotive manufacturers are gaining from a decision-making process that helps them make better faster decisions to adopt renewable energy this kind of awareness this kind of Commitment that will ultimately be the thing we need to save the world on every level and I guess what we need to do is we need to have those seven billion people Read your book. I agree. If seven billion people read your book. Would you still talk to me? That's Eric Eric calm calm reversing global warming check it out. It's coming out soon and And learn about the steps you need to take. Okay. Thank you