 So far, so far so good. So there's you had posted several articles about developing further development of the Micah and the ideas framework. In LinkedIn. No, I posted the article about the CBDC project. Well, it's not a project. The CBDC development in China. And that's what you were referring to. I think that is that is correct. Yeah, you know, you're involved in so many projects that I because Well, no, I just have to be honest, I have a passing into what I have. I'm not an expert in that field, but I was stuck by the announcement by the sound bank of China that their CBDC project has been long deployed and used by 260 million Chinese people. I mean, can you believe it 260 million? Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, this has been going on for a while, they are pilot projects. And of course, in China, everything is at a big scale. It's mine. I mean, I think it's, and I was making the comparison. I don't know where the US stand in this field, but I was making the comparison that in Europe, there's indeed a digital year project, but it's still at the so-called investigation phase. And that is supposed to last for two years, I mean, yes. Yes, we're not on the same track, I think that way. Well, the point is, it's a totally different kind of system where the command and control system versus something else. So, but what would be interesting is to see what kind of identity solution they used, they use in this solution. You know, there is, they published a research and development, a research paper last year, which I came across only recently. It has, it's more on the macroeconomic side, you know, of this, of the project rather than the technical debate about, but I think it's not this centralized as you would expect somehow. And it's, but what it does, and I think this is an interesting development, it does claim to be offering offline functionality. And that itself is, that itself is quite a significant, if that is true, I think it is true, but that is quite a significant achievement. Yeah, in fact, two years ago, I was taking a look, a deep dive into all the patents that the Chinese have filed. And it's not clear to me that parts of the system are not on the blockchain because there are about out of the 80 patents about 10 or 15 are on blockchain. And of course they talk about the wallets being tiered and the lowest level. It is supposed to be offline wallets. So you can transfer small amounts of money between people. So it is in that sense a true token, just as Dan's group Accenture is promoting in the digital dollar project, which they say should be a token based approach similar to cash, because cash is the ultimate token. And you don't need any identification to spend it. And it's meant to be anonymous, but I doubt whether the Chinese system is completely anonymous. No, it's not. I think that would be asking too much from the Chinese. Although they claim that up to a certain amount, it is anonymous. And above a certain amount, it's less anonymous. What less anonymous means is up to anyone's guess. But what they are saying is, below a certain threshold, it's fully anonymous, which may well be true. I mean, to be honest, who cares if you're making a $10 payment to someone else? I mean, does that really matter? I mean, it does matter maybe from a purely macro economic point of view, but not in terms of Mr. X is making a payment to Mrs. Y, for example. Yes, true. The point, though, is that how, you know, for the higher tiers, you're supposed to have a wallet that is coming through, you know, what is called the two tier system, right? The banks are going to do KYC and they issue a wallet. And that wallet is capable of holding more and more and more funds depending on the level of KYC they've done, the level of accreditation that is in the system. So that is that much is clear. I had written several articles actually informs about this. And there is of course a debate going on about privacy versus anonymity. There is anonymity and what is privacy and what is what is the difference? Maybe that's another topic that we should be discussing and how do you implement it inside hyperledger technologies, that would be an interesting takeoff. But anyway, coming back to our, you know, our today's roadmap. You know, several people on the on the call. Maybe we should be posting up the ideas that we had sketched out. And maybe people can add to these ideas, and also say whether they'll be willing to participate in some of these topics. So I see somebody has already dropped off. So here is Alfonso very happily putting up that on the chat, the ideas that I had put in the email. So that includes a creating a task force for working on the identity working group paper to be more of a systemization of knowledge on identity in hyperledger and beyond. So the whole focus of the paper has to turn a little bit. So that's the first one. The second one is identity working group standards from the ID VCs to the ISO. Then the idea of micro ledgers which we did go into a little bit with carry and corda and ideas like that. So identity portability in Europe implications for other jurisdictions, this is your, this is your specialty, Stefan, and then digital wallets, which of course would say where the, where, you know, where the identity that it's used in the wallets would be rooted in. We don't know whether it should be anonymous, so don't mess, or not at all, you know, or, or completely anonymous like, like what we were just discussing. The point that Roland for a race was identity theft. What happens when your identity stolen directly or indirectly, and what happens to all your assets, if everything is in a digital wallet. How do you shelter the assets. You know, from a thief in the sense that they already your identity has already been compromised your private key and so on. What can be done, either to a recover the money or be to prevent transfers. So there are a lot of ideas about that and actual code inside. And I apologize to do that. The last point is what are the implications in the so called web three and metaverse universe with respect to identity. I mean, does identity enter the picture or is it. Is there a balance between privacy, or anonymity, and the need to know because if you're doing bad things, how do they identify you, and, you know, how to stop people from doing crazy stuff. This is the background so I think what we need to do right now is just walk down the people who are here and see whether you know these ideas are worth pursuing. And how do we do that practically in the context of a once a month call. So, Dan, do you have anything to add to this, or any practical tips. And you're muted then, if you want to talk. Otherwise, we go down to, let's say, Rhonda Okamoto. Hello. Can you hear me. Yes. Okay great I'm not sure why my camera is not working but anyway. I wanted to introduce myself. I represent a company called ID shield and legal shield. And that's actually what we do we help people monitor their personal identifying information. We have a network of fraud investigators that once you sign up for a subscription model, he will help you with any online frauds or anything that may have happened. I'm not sure we have not got it into the digital wallets and I'm not really sure what a fraud investigator could really help you with. So it is actually why I came to the blockchain community because I'm into the crypto and I always wondered who could help and who could help with fraud in that case. And my business partner that helps me run a blockchain organization actually had five NFTs taken from her open seas and metamask wallet, and they were able to get in. And now they've even threatened that if she doesn't send some ether to an account that they will actually publish her driver's license passport and husband's credit card information out there. So this is a really, you know, interesting topic for me. And this is why I came here today to, you know, learn about what blockchain communities trying to help with that fraud. Yeah, Jim is on the call right now. So Jim we are discussing. How do you deal with identity theft as one of the topics in our list of topics. Jim is having microphone problems he says, but he can always type on the, on the chat with any insights. In terms of what you just said, it seems to be a combination of theory and ransomware, because that is a usual ransomware. Sort of demand, you know, which is that we will dox you will publish your information. Or we'll lock up everything and whatever, you know, some threat, which is basically aimed at you personally, and seeks to either embarrass you inconvenience you or, or, yeah, even steal from you. He went she reached out to open seas and met a mask. They told her, you know, they would help her and then she found out the person who from open seas was trying to help her was a scammer because then he asked for some ease. I was just like, this is crazy. And I've heard other people had, you know, that's because web web three, according to many who have been writing on this is highly centralized. At least at least the way it is being implemented. You know, there is only two or three sites that control access, because nobody is running a full ethereum node. So in Fiora, alchemy and open seas for NFTs. It's just about it, you know, metamask connects to the ethereum blockchain through these through these intermediaries. So, so that is why, you know, that it's not decentralized moxie Marlin spike, a famous cryptographer who the actual originator of signals and of rotating keys published an article about this, and I will have the reference to it in our meeting minutes because I'm already looking into it for another project to do with the NFTs. Anyway, it boils down to, you know, do you have delegates who can act on your behalf. Can you have it. So there is the tension between owning your private key and being in complete control of your assets. And then of course, the private key being stolen, or somehow compromised, you losing control of everything, or having it be, you know, some kind of a tiered thing. That means for five spending $5 you don't need anything but for higher cost. And then you have a multi sake, or some such idea. I don't know Dan, do you have any thing to contribute about in that regard. No, no, I don't. You're right in that eccentric is in that space, but I'm not, I'm focused on identity, not. Yeah, not. But identity theft should figure in identity. At least a little bit. So, yeah, but not the ransomware bit. Yeah, you're right. Maybe it's something I need to get smarter on but I'm not at this point. So we will we will have a session, which deep, which is a deep dive into that. We will try to get some people who are experts in that. Maybe then you can hook me up with some people who are there. So maybe in a month or two, we will definitely have a session on that because that seems to be very important for us, and it is web three metaverse every everything you can think of whatever wherever you're acting as an agent. If somebody else can act as you, then what happens, and the reverse problem which is you acting as multiple people, which is civil attack. So we've already sort of looked into that in a little bit of detail last year here. But I think this is a changing and evolving landscape. So we have to have at least a recipe, you know, a list of ways or methods in which we can handle that. All of that will of course feed into our systemization of knowledge paper. So, you know, all the things that we have mentioned in the has being important will all feed into this to a paper that we will keep alive because obviously we can't just list the current methods and hope to cover the universe because the universe is constantly evolving. So Ronda you've said something about what about Ricardo. I don't have anything to contribute we were just talking about what are the topics relevant to our group and how we can engage and present Jim and Jim Sinclair and I had a meeting where we were the only two. We discussed that this group is more on the strategic and bigger picture side, whereas the technical working group like identity implementers working group goes into the details of hyper ledger strategies and how they help with, you know, how they actually implementing some of these ideas. So I'll bring up the idea of identity theft to some of them, but anyway, Ricardo, now that you heard about this. Tell us why you're here and what do you hope to contribute or learn and stuff like that. Do you want me to take you off mute or are you okay. I guess, Ricardo is in the same same camp as Jim having microphone problems or he doesn't want to talk, which is okay. Alfonso, do you want to say something about all this. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for keeping this group alive. I appreciate what you do and the rest of the group has been doing for all this time from the ideas that you put for consideration. I was particularly interested in the S okay, and the system of decision of knowledge. Towards the creation of standards, which is point three, and being from hyper ledger Latino America, the issue of jurisdictions is relevant for for our beach. Those are the three aspects of this working group that I would like to to be involved with. Personally, you know that I'm interested in NFTs and nifty and the other the other projects but here as okay standards and jurisdiction. I think that is quite important for our region at a strategic level. Great. So, you know, we have to, in order to contribute to the group. You can go to the main page of the working group and there are meeting minutes, even for today, you can make comments you can add it's all wide open. And you can of course, apply on emails, which are also saved if you're it's on the list. So all of this stuff is, you know, you know, the ways in which you can participate. There are so many of them. The thing is, when you're faced with a plethora of choices, you probably freeze. So you just have to take one of them and, you know, just like when I came to this country. And I went to the cereal aisle I saw 250 types of cereal. I said, what should I buy, and I've left the store without buying anything. So too much choice is almost the same as no choice. Sometimes. Anyway, so what I'm saying is, you know, there are many ways to participate that are the topic is very broad. So I think the way to start is by choosing something very specific, and adding to that stream knowledge, questions, anything. And I'm hoping to publicize more of this groups of activities and get more people to show up. Unfortunately, I posted up the LinkedIn message only this morning. I'm just, I'm just involved in too many things. Maybe another lesson for me to be a little more disciplined. But anyway, Jim, you're still still stuck in the no microphone thing. You have anything to say because you're, you have unmuted. No, no, no, that was from before. No. Okay, so any ideas, you've been involved in this group for a while. And there are lots and lots of new groups. Well, I should probably set to your IP. Otherwise, Jim Jordan will probably kill me. The others, you know, the CCG, but they, you know, everybody is pretty much in a very technical bent. So, I hope to elevate the conversation a little bit. So, Dan, as a long-term member of the group, what are your thoughts about 2022 and where should we be focusing. There will be a lot of movement on wallets with EU legislating the EU identity wallet, Canada pursuing an identity wallet that's going to have to be certified somehow based on some standards. And I think the other thing that is happening, certainly trust over IP and others is establishing trust across networks and how do you, yeah, how do you interoperability of trust, I guess. Yeah, exactly. You know, what what parameters do you need what levels of trust. Well, how do you trust it and are there going to be levels of trust kind of like levels of insurance. Which has a technical component and a human component like if, if I have an identity assurance level because I did a rigorous identity proofing process well, there's human trust around that like even when passports are issued. Right, we trust some countries more than others. That's why we have visas and visa waivers right. So how are we going to do that and what information must be shared in order to automate that. So I think, I think that trust ecosystems and wallets are going to be big. Okay. So I'm going to keep a note on the chat. Anybody else. Yes. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay, go ahead. Somebody can go, you can go Stephen. Yeah, okay. I just wanted to raise a question maybe because I've been, I've been, I'll be I'll be honest with you I've been struggling with DLT in the field of digital identity for a while and one of the reason I've been struggling is that I find that. You know, this is of course very relevant from within the ideas to context is that you need to address the offline situation that's, that's an explicit regulatory requirement. And you can understand why it's there. And I was wondering if, as was one of the topics that we could discuss or at least consider during the year would be, you know, how do we, how does the DLT addresses that offline is there that way around that way what's, what's the likelihood because I, I, you know, every time I'm facing that issue, I'm, you know, I'm stuck and I get the impression that people are stuck basically. Well, I mean, if I understand your question correctly, it's similar to what we have with with centralized public key infrastructure, like for smart cards and stuff. If you have a smart card today like whatever that is, you know, in order to or let's say a passport same thing your passport is a smart card. It's ISO 14443 AD, right so how do you how are you going to authenticate it offline. You have a copy of the of the credit, you know, the certs right, you have an offline copy of that. Yeah, so people do this today you download your CRL your sort of revocation this and whatever your, whatever your risk appetite allows whether that's 24 hours 48 hours once a week once a month, you have a local copy of it. You get out of date yeah. But right now like even IKO for passports and PKV is updated what once every month or once every other month is something like that. So, same thing for decentralized public key infrastructure whether using a DLT or, or not. You know, you have a copy of it that you download every so often whatever that often is is based on your business rules. In other words, what Dan is saying to you Stefan is this problem exists today without DLT. So, why should I get the impression it's worse for you know for DLT I mean is that a, is that a, you know, maybe maybe it's a misconception I mean I'm not you know I'm not technical enough to, to give you an authoritative opinion. But I get the impression that people are stuck with that issue. I mean there are two or three ways in which offline payments are done right one is you issue a smart card or a card but that presupposes a reader, you got to have a reader to do this. There was an interesting, interesting presentation in capital markets, which I also run where they talked about crypto notes. That means you have a note that is printable using a, something, some mark on it that shows that it's legitimate, either you get it from the bank, and then you spend it, and the merchant can actually, instead of taking the note to the, to the bank can actually put it in a deposited through a wallet. And once they deposit it that note becomes invalid. And there are ways in which the note itself on the face can show whether it is spendable or non spendable. In other words, there is ink on the notes that becomes sensitive to the spendability or non spendability. That's one method. The other method is of course, all the different local currencies right I mean you can, you can create local currencies that you can spend in the local area. The problem that you're bringing up still is, is according, you know, like what Dan said, still a problem for the current infrastructure, the only way out of it is of course cash. You know, cash is the only thing that you can use. So, but cash has problems to life in the, in the case of the Caribbean, where there is a lot, a lot of hurricanes, for example, and there's destruction. So distribution, physical distribution of cash becomes a challenge. Cash is expensive as well. I mean it's not. Yeah, you have to safeguard it, you have to guard against theft at the point of payment because the guy who's standing behind the cash register could dip into the cash register, you know, then you have to deposit it every night every or in a safe whatever you do. There's all kinds of, and then of course, if you are talking about a trillion dollars in cash, that's about 18 truckloads, 18 truckloads of $100 bills. I mean for, for the US currency but maybe nine truckloads for, for Euro because you have higher denomination. Anyway, so this, yeah, definitely would be an interesting topic to talk about. And the main thing is addressing existing implementations or solutions to the problem, not just belly aching about, Oh, this is a problem that's a problem, you know, we have 500 problems. Okay, we have 500 problems. Now do we have 250 solutions to some of those 500 problems or, and what are the problems with those solutions, you know, what is the address, how far do they go, and so on so forth. So these, these are the practical sort of ideas that we have to come up with, and we have to get good speakers. I need your help to channel people. Last year, you know, the latter of the of the year I was completely snowed so I did not give as much attention to this identity working group as I should have. I think it's one of those new year resolution things. We love to see whether it lasts beyond January. In my case. Let's hope it does. Yes. So, Mr. Mr. McCauley, you have anything to. Hi, we've been sorry about earlier. I, I figured I, it's 12pm my time or this meeting started 12pm and I had a goal to listen while I was eating lunch and when you asked for my take on anything I had food in my mouth so I figured it wouldn't be, you know, kind to speak. But just to introduce. Yeah, so. Yeah, so adding to some of the stuff with Steve, let me just introduce myself. I'm Ricardo McCarty from Neo tech solutions we design and develop proof of concepts and solutions on the blockchain, just to add to what Stephen has said. You know, discuss regarding hurricanes. I'm from the Bahamas I'm based in the Bahamas, and just to give my take on what Stephen said with you and Stephen said about you know legal tender five currencies. Yes. And those the distribution of those and the safeguarding of those has been a problem will continue to be a problem regarding post disaster assessment and the like. And, you know, in those situations, money, you know, fire, it's not even legal tender because you know where the destruction is such at a catastrophic level that there is no way to use the cash, and there is no way to assess how it can be used. So basically it's, it's worthless. And what my governor's launched a project sand or a project. I'm sorry project sand dollar. I'm sure you guys have heard of it. The goal of this is to mitigate some of that. You know they have contracted a company to create the skeleton, and you know other private institutions and private digital service providers can build solutions on that project for the Commonwealth of the Bahamas at large, where we can you know some of this, and also leverage it for you know digital identity purposes, and also interoperability. So, perhaps, maybe, if we can find it's still in pilot phase but you know if we can find some use case data for this. We can use this for the discussion or any discussion that you guys may have in the future. I would be happy to contribute that you know from my and if it means anything. Well definitely. I am actually in touch with some of those guys and I actually wrote an article two articles informed about it one was about the sand dollar project when it was launched. The other was with the island pay, which is a, which is a payment service provider. I had an interview with Steven Douglas, I mean not even Douglas, his last name, don't remember his first name, but anyway, he was a very interesting guy and his main point was, there is an interoperability between the CBDCs and the rest of the, you know, you, the credit card in first infrastructure, specifically through EMV, which is a standard established by visa mastercard and Europe, Euro clear Euro, your card. EMV. So, but, you know, inevitably when we are talking about identity, it seems like we are coming to talk about use cases, right, because in the end, identity is worthless. Use cases, the real world, and use cases are kind of hobbled if they do not have a proper identity system so there is a close interrelation between these two ideas and that that's why when we talk about identity, we invariably get to how is it implemented in the system like Stefan says, implementing identity systems using BLT, but there is also the other side of it, which is, if you're having a use case for CBDC, how do you, how do you integrate an identity system into it. And that's, that's what we are interested in. But obviously, it has to be in the context of use cases. So Ricardo, your contribution would be welcome there. And going back to, you know, do you have anything more to add to this. Currently, not not as yet but as I said before we designed develop and deploy solutions on the blockchain. Similar to what we spoke about with Project SoundDollar, there was a project that we had, you know, the pleasure of collaborating on with another Caribbean island, Dominica, the Amla Jean wallet project. They started to, you know, implement this idea after a catastrophic hurricane, you know hit the island. Five years ago, six years ago, it's 2022 now, six years ago. So this is not Dominican Republic but Dominica. No, Dominica, yes, the commonwealth of Dominica, not the Dominican Republic. I've been there. I've been there. I love it. Lovely country. So, yeah, they were what we did. What we did, we, we, in a technical sense, we, you know, develop their technical workflow processes on how, you know, interoperability, because, you know, Dominica is a small country, it's a small island nation. Use cases and any solution of that sort, you know, would be, you know, more or less ideal for a nation that size. So what we wanted to do a similar word. You spoke about what they're doing with SoundDollar, we wanted to make sure interoperability was paramount. And that, you know, the integration with the Dominican Cooperative Societies League and any other credit unions that they partner with or that are subsidiaries or in any relation to them that clients funds and financial access and financial inclusion would not be restrained. So where do you source your identity information from in that context? We would have to get it from a third party service provider if it's applicable. Okay. Yeah. So anybody. So anybody in the, in the suppose I'm a tourist. Okay, and I'm, I've gone to Sofria. And I'm stuck there during the hurricane. And I don't have any cash with me. I don't have any way to spend money so that I can buy food, let's say, or pay for my lodging. How would that work in terms of, I mean, did you guys go into these details or is it, was it still in the sort of thinking face? No, it's launched currently in that, in that regard, if you have a cell phone or smartphone, sorry, you can access your details via a QR code via SMS confirmation by email confirmation. Okay. But if the network itself is down, which is what Stefan was talking about where you. Two caveats there, right? One is a way to phone home on somewhere so that they can verify you. Second is the availability of electricity itself. So you have two constraints, one more drastic than the other. What is meant by offline capability because once your phone drains of electricity, battery, and you have no way to connect because the network is not available, then, you know, what do you do? So this is, this is a conundrum even before, I mean, like, like we were saying, it's not solved in today's infrastructure properly. But they are looking for ways to solve it in the latest, you know, ways of doing things. Right. And I presume that is why we all get it. That's the main reason to discuss how these things can be done potentially. Yeah, so we go through the literature that is out there. We try to get the people who can answer some of these tough questions, you know, and try to make. You know, this available to others who are grappling with the same question instead of having to rediscover everything again and again and again. That's why, you know, maybe you, Mr. Makati can help us by either talking or researching about this problem, you know, like the identity. There is a proven second in when there is a huge catastrophe, how do you address it and target funds to the people who really need it. And who are those people who really need it again comes back to identity, right. In the end, like in the last go around here in the United States we had problems during the pandemic where it was proven that a lot of people who don't who didn't deserve money got PPP loans and all kinds of grants. Again, it boils down to identity and proving that you are really one of those categories. And how do you do that in the midst of, you know, infrastructural damage. I know that Dan would probably say it has to do with biometrics to a certain extent, because that irrevocably links you to something that you are. So, there's something that you have like a cell phone or credit card or whatever or cash, something that you are, you know, so there are specific ways in which you prove who, you know, you are who you are. There's a gentleman who joined just now his name is Victor P. I'm wondering whether he has anything to contribute to this discussion of what we are talking about which is how do we create a forum that is useful. Can you address some of these questions that are, you know, sort of top of the mind or, you know, not solved. Hey, Bippin, yeah, I saw your message on LinkedIn and I thought, I thought I would just join and listen in really to, you know, I don't have any, unfortunately, no solutions I've sort of been following the problem. You know, I do think that connecting with biometrics, you know, is one thing that that's happening. It's really, you know, but how to bring in there's all these companies now trying to help you verify your credentials with government IDs, etc. Know your own business know your own customer all those type of things and, you know, is is that one thing but yeah it's, I think it's to me it's it's the everything is going to depend on identity and proving it and making it easy. Maybe part of your wallet etc. And the solutions for that are, you know, too many for my brain right now so that's why I'm trying to, you know, if there's anything I can contribute but it's really more understanding where things are going and how to understand it. I mean, in order to talk about that we have to see exactly what, what you do, you know, what your experience has been so far in the world. So, obviously, we may think that whatever we do is not relevant to the problem or whatever, you know, we can dismiss our own selves what what I'm trying to say is, you probably have more knowledge about certain things than many others on this call. And that's why I was asking you where, you know, where do you work what, you know, you don't even have to say where do you work but what has been your experience in this world with respect to identity for other topics so that we can. You can continue. Based on that, and of course ask questions is also asking questions is also contributing. I also have something to add when you were talking about the stimulus, you know, $72 million was sent in the stimulus checks 60 that 60,000 stimulus checks were sent to deceased people. And then the Treasury tried to get back the money, and I think that told about 72 million. So that's a really big number because you know where does that money go and who's you know paying off the stimulus it's that's why his text, we should be concerned about, you know, government can't even tell people are deceased or not, as well as you know, do they qualify but you know you're sending out money to deceased people you know that's an Well, the point is, if it's $72 million in the context of $1.8 trillion. Yes, it's not much actually, but that's a separate question. How do we even prevent $0 from going to dead people. The problem is, you know they use the IRS filing status from not just in 2020. They used it from 2018 to drop the checks. So if you're talking about a two year old data. In two years, many, many people just, you know, pass away, because I mean in a large country like ours to 350 million people, you know, I don't know how many people die every year but definitely some of them who filed taxes in So you have to go to the root of the problem, the root of the problem is, you are relying on two year old data filed with IRS. And there are people who don't even file taxes because they go below the filing amount or, you know, so they didn't get the money. Have you guys, have you guys ever talked about like what the government can do I know it's social security number but could there be some other identifier because you know so security is a mess but have you guys ever discussed. Yes, we have discussed it. There is a visceral opposition to a national identity system. Instead, the banks and financial institutions and everybody else, for that matter, have cobbled together our system that relies on social security numbers, which are functioning today as a national identify digital identifier. Other countries have recognized this sort of problems and they. So, so we come to the crux of the problem the crux of the problem is. Okay, so how can you become a citizen. One, you're, you're born in this country. Second, you're naturalized. So, these are the two usual paths. If you're born, then you go back to the Genesis documents which is basically birth certificates. Things like that. But unfortunately, the birth certificates are managed at the very local level. Hospitals, corporations, you know, like in New York City, you have to, you know, it basically goes to the New York City Municipal Authority. You know, whatever they're called. In order to get approved, you have to go there. So how do you tie in this sort of a decentralized Genesis system to a national identity where the payments for, you know, for, let's say for this PPP loan or stimulus check. I have to be distributed to all the people in the country. These are real problems. And I think it is also, you know, people's natural tendencies to say oh I don't want a government identity but in effect they are using social security number, which is not set up to do this. As, you know, you know, you said about when you're born in the hospital babies get a social security number well you know that back in. I can remember what year it was from. By the way, you have to apply separately to the Social Security Administration. No I'm saying, yeah, but you know when you're born they have you fill out the paperwork but you know the numbers that the babies were getting in the hospital social security numbers and such. Those are already compromised because the criminals had figured out a way, you know, sequential number of social security, so then social security went to randomizing social security numbers and then that became a mess because they couldn't tell if that was fake or not, you know, based upon the decade, the area that you were born in in the year. So now it's kind of a total mess. Yeah, yeah, but the point is, it should never be based on a secret. Meaning my social security number should not be something that that should be a secret only known to you, it's obviously not you're sharing it with hundreds of people and ends up on dark web it ends up everywhere else. So that should not be it's like saying my digital identifier or my license. The number for New York City like you know New York State license is somehow special that that should be somehow figuring into me proving who I am they constantly ask me the last four digits of my social security number. Those last four digits are known to, you know, I mean, if it's, if I'm, I'm more than 60 years old so by now, I'm sure it's out there. You know, so this is the problem the system is compromised from the beginning, like you said from birth. We have to have a different system but there's a very vigorous opposition to having a national identity. It's not so the case in in Europe, or in India for that matter other ID, and in many other countries, but everywhere people are scared of surveillance and I'm sure that if I lose my number in India, and if somebody else uses it, there are tough penalties, meaning, you know you go to jail. So here you know the thief just walks away. If they haven't actually done anything very serious, like, you know, compromising my identity stealing thousands of dollars and my money. The time is come to the top of the hour so we will talk about national identity systems and why such a system will not work in the US for cultural reasons. Thanks for showing up. And hopefully I'll have a more coherent and cohesive presentation. And please help me with finding people to talk on this. Thank you. I was just going to mention that you know I'm with the government blockchain association we are actually doing a virtual event on the future of money and governance and it is hitting on some of the things that you were talking about. Would you like me to add that to the chat or. Yeah, you can add that to the chat. I'll be sharing. Are you on the. Where did you hear about us are meeting today. Oh, Bobby must care she's hyper ledger and Jim Sinclair and you know everybody so yeah I've known about hyper ledger for a while and we've always had speakers come in and talk about identity so it's you know a big topic for me because I've been following you know all the theft in the crypto or financial systems and the crypto it's just even more and then also I'm a part of the diversity and blockchain Philly chapter where we're doing crypto asset planning. And you know how do you communicate to your loved ones which are digital assets are so that's kind of why I wanted to join this and learn about what you guys are doing as far as you know trying to. You know, it's, it's a group that right now is meeting only once a month so we are only, you know, we only meet once a month so we're trying to figure out how we can reboot this to be useful to the community. Identity working group was one of the first to be set up in hyper ledger. Maybe even as far as back as 2015 2016 and I was in some of the first meetings. Although I was not the chair. But you know we've. It's always difficult because there is a technical aspect. There is the policy aspect. There is an integration with actual use cases. So identity pervades is this like a bottom foundation. Right. I think people should be more scared of central bank digital currencies that's a real surveillance. I mean depends on how you we talk started talking about it with Stefan with the Chinese situation, whether they really have anonymous transfers or small amounts like buying pizza and, let's say, come about chicken. You know, anyway, so you know, less than, let's say, 100 bucks. Are they going to take, are they going to be concerned about it, or will it join a flood of data that will be completely anonymized so that they can say okay retail spending for food is X. You know, because all everything in the end. Boys down into macro economic considerations as well. Thanks for showing up and thanks for the for contributing by making statements or asking questions and hope to see you in the next meeting which will be next month. Four weeks from today on Wednesday at 12 noon. Thank you. See you next month. Thanks bye. Bye bye.