 This episode was prerecorded as part of a live continuing education webinar. On-demand CEUs are still available for this presentation through all CEUs. Register at allceus.com slash counselor toolbox. I'd like to welcome everybody to today's presentation, Dialectical Behavior Therapy Skills, Interpersonal Effectiveness. Now, if you've been with us over the past week or so, you'll know that we've been talking about dialectical behavior therapy techniques. First, we started out with emotion regulation, and that's really talking about preventing vulnerabilities so you're not as reactive and developing an awareness of what triggers your emotion, on emotionality. The second step we talked about was distress tolerance, and that's helping the patient move from, okay, I know what I'm feeling. I've tried to do everything to prevent it, but life through me lemons, what do I do with it? And distress tolerance helps our clients develop tools so they can withstand unpleasant emotions, unpleasant urges when life throws them lemons instead of having to act on those impulsive urges so they can work more towards their valued goals and objectives. The next step, which I call kind of problem solving, is called interpersonal effectiveness, and this is really broad, but basically what we're talking about is helping people figure out, once they know what triggers their emotions and they've done everything they can to make themselves as unreactive as possible, if you will, they've tolerated the distress when something bad has happened, then they've got to unhook from their emotions and figure out how to solve the problem. In the moment, they're feeling an unpleasant emotion. They're having unpleasant thoughts, feeling unpleasant urges, and that's accepting what that is in the moment is just how it's going to be, but you don't have to stay stuck in the moment. You can figure out, okay, in the next moment, in the next moment, what do I want to do? Do I want to stay stuck here, or what actions could I take in order to improve the moment? So interpersonal effectiveness is really where we're going to focus today, and there are so many tools that you can use for interpersonal effectiveness, and in this hour, we're really just going to hit on the beginning basic tools and give you an idea in upcoming webinars that I've got planned. We're going to be going more in-depth into each of these skills. So in addition to defining interpersonal effectiveness, we're going to identify barriers to people being interpersonally effective. We'll examine the goals of interpersonal effectiveness. Ultimately, what are we trying to help patients accomplish? And we'll review techniques for improving interpersonal effectiveness. So now we know what it is. We know why we want to do it. What exactly are the techniques we can provide our clients in order to help them become more interpersonally effective? Interpersonal effectiveness is the ability to ask for what you want and say no to unwanted requests. Now, when you first hear that, you think, well, that's a cinch. We all do that. And in reality, no, we don't. There's a lot of people who are not able to effectively ask for what they want either because they're afraid of rejection or some other reasons, or they don't know what they want. Or they're unable to say no to unwanted requests. And that inability to set boundaries or maintain boundaries poses a problem. So they feel like they are taken advantage of. They feel like nobody cares about them. So we're going to talk about that. The goals of interpersonal effectiveness are to get others to do things you want them to do. Now, obviously we're not talking about total manipulation. But if you want someone to maybe call before they come over to your house, that's a reasonable request. So we'll talk about balancing reasonable and unreasonable. We want to help clients get others to take them seriously. A lot of times clients with emotional dysregulation are seen as drama queens or drama kings. And their friends, their social supports, don't take them seriously when they say that they're struggling, when they say that they need help, or they don't take them seriously about their perception of things. So we want to help them figure out how to effectively communicate what they're feeling, what their needs are, and why. We'll help them learn to effectively say no to unwanted requests. And this takes practice. Strengthen their current relationships. Most people have a few relationships out there that are at least not completely damaged. So let's strengthen those. Let's build new relationships. And that we're going to talk about some of the challenges there when we get to that point. And hopeless relationships, which is a real struggle for a lot of our clients, create and maintain balance between these two polar opposites, between the positive and the negative, between the yes and the noes. There's always going to be opposites, and we need to figure out a way to walk that middle path. And balance acceptance and change. We talk about radical acceptance and just accepting things as they are. Well, that's true, but you don't want to stay stuck there and go, well, that's just the way it is. There's nothing I can do about it. I might as well just lay down. No. We want them to accept that this is the way it is right now. What changes can I make in order to improve my situation in the future? So what are our barriers? And I'm sure there are others that I didn't think of. Lack of effective communication skills. A lot of clients when they get emotional or even maybe when they aren't emotional, maybe they haven't developed the skills for effectively communicating their wants and needs in an assertive way. Not being passive, not expecting mind reading or not being sort of in your face. So we want to help people figure out what effective communication looks like and sounds like. Because you can say all the right words, but if your nonverbals are just screaming get away from me, then guess what's going to happen? They may have a lack of clarity about what they want from other people. I want you to make it feel better. I want you to, I want you to fix it. Okay, well, I don't know what fix it means for you. You know, I know my idea of what fixing the situation would be, but that might not be what you want. So we need to help people figure out how to define and articulate to others. What is it specifically you want me to do? Difficulty balancing your needs, the client's needs, and the needs of other people. And one of the things we're talking about here is if you've worked with clients who have borderline personality disorder or emotional dysregulation, especially with self harm, there, you know, there are times where they are so overwhelmed and they are so overwhelmed so often that they constantly feel like they need support. They feel like they need something and they can be draining. And it's not that they're trying to be draining. It's that they feel like they are getting sucked under by a rip current. They're not floating out there. They're not treading water. They're getting sucked under. So we want to help them figure out what are their needs. And obviously the emotion regulation and distress tolerance will help them not feel like they need as much. Their emotions get in the way. They feel sad. They feel guilty. They feel angry. I've talked before about the fact that when people with emotional dysregulation get upset and I'm just going to use that junk term upset. They also may feel angry at themselves for doing it again and getting over upset again, or feel guilty for, you know, freaking out and stressing people out again. So their emotions get in the way and they have this whole jumble of negative emotions they're trying to deal with which keeps them from an effectively solving problems. Thinking clearly and communicating their needs. Sacrificing long-term goals for short-term relief. This hurts. It's got to go away now. And I get that. However, is that true? Does it have to go away now? What would happen if it didn't, if you sat with it for five minutes or 15 minutes? Talking about the wave, how things come in, urges and feelings can come in. They rise, they crest, and then they go back out. So we want to encourage clients to start working towards empowering themselves to surf those urges. Other people get in your way, criticizing, complaining or enabling. Thinking other people are more powerful than you. Feeling very disempowered to do anything can keep a lot of our clients from being effective interpersonally because they are timid. They're afraid to assert what they need or assert their wants or their thoughts. A need for external validation also gets in the way of interpersonal effectiveness. If every thought you express, if everything you say, you first run through your mind with, is this person going to be mad if I say this? Will this person reject me if I say this? When our clients self-worth and existence depends on external validation, when they don't have enough self-esteem to validate themselves, they're going to have a hard time being effective interpersonally because they're going to be so afraid of rocking the boat. And finally, beliefs that you don't deserve what you want. A lot of our clients don't think they're good enough. They don't think they deserve to be happy. They don't think they deserve to have someone help them, which keeps them from asking for assistance, which keeps them from asking for other things. So techniques, the first thing, let's clarify the priorities. How important is getting what you want in this particular situation? First, what is it exactly do you want? You want to feel better. Okay, I understand that. Now, feel better is one of those terms when my son gets sick. Oh, bless his heart. If he gets a runny nose, the world is coming to an end. He's a teenager, so I guess it kind of goes with the territory. But when he wants to feel better, he doesn't care about much of any other symptom. He just wants his nose to stop running. So feeling better has to be defined by the person. What is it specifically that needs to change so you feel better? And how can I help you with this? So if he comes to me and he tells me, you know, I feel like crap and, you know, what can I do to feel better? Is there anything I can take so I feel better? I've got to go through this long questioning about, well, tell me what your symptoms are that you need to address. Are we talking pain? You know, then we'll look at Tylenol and ibuprofen. Are we talking fever? Are we upset stomach? Give me an idea about what needs to be fixed and then I can figure out which tools to use, which takes us to fix it. You know, this is wrong, whatever. I got this letter in the mail and I'm in a tizzy and I can't think straight, so I need you to fix it. Okay. If you want me to fix it, what outcome are you looking for? So, so I know what goal, what direction I'm looking, looking forward to. Sometimes our clients, remember we talked about external validation are so afraid of abandonment. They just want reassurance that you're not going to leave. And every time you get a little twitch of disapproval or questioning, it sends them into a panic because they're afraid that you're going to abandon them. So they want to know you'll never leave. Well, okay. You know, I can't guarantee that I'm never going to leave. But, you know, we die, we move, things happen. But what is it I can do to help you feel more secure in the moment? How is it that I can help you feel secure that I'm here for you right now? And then obviously working on other things that's that last one is kind of a big therapeutic issue that you're not going to solve in two sentences. Keeping the relationship. How important is getting what you want in with respect to keeping the relationship if you have to choose between getting your own way, or keeping the relationship which one's more important. And, you know, you're going to find that sometimes getting what you want, Trump's keeping the relationship and that's okay. But the person has to clarify that in their mind and say, All right, if this person, maybe Sally gets a job offer across the country. She's been dating Sam for, you know, 15 months. And she says, I got this job offer. It's a once in a lifetime thing. I really need to take it. And I want you to come with me if Sam says no. What does she do? What are her priorities? Does she pass up on the job offer in order to stay with Sam? Or does she say, Well, you know, you can come visit. Have fun and move. So that's one of those common situations that may happen, but helping people figure out where are your priorities and how does this particular situation fit in with your main values right now. And how important is getting what you want with regard to maintaining your self self respect. If you get what you want. Will it help you maintain your self respect. If you don't get what you want. How is that going to affect your self respect? And why, you know, let's take a look at if you don't get what you want. Is it going to be somehow hurtful to your self respect. And we have to have clients figure out what that means. What is their self esteem based on and why would this hurt their self respect. Because there are some times that something comes along and it is important for their own self worth to achieve this goal or to do this thing or to have whatever it is. And that's okay. Maybe they're in a relationship. And one partner wants to have their own bank account so they can control their own finances and that is really important to them for feeling empowered and maintaining their self respect. So, how we're on the scale of willing to fight for this and importance, would that be to that person. Dear man, and obviously dear is the only one on this page because I didn't have a room for the whole acronym. Describe in specific objective terms, what the problem is, and what your hoped for resolution is. I can hear what the problem is and still not know where to go from there. So tell me what is it you're seeing as the problem and how can I help express feelings and opinions using I statements, instead of you made me, or you always say, I feel like and you know that's something we've been working with our clients on since we probably got out of graduate school but it's important to remind people to express feelings and opinions with those I statements. So the other person doesn't feel as attacked. Assert by asking for what you want and don't expect mind reading. If you walk in and you go this house is a pigsty, and you sit down and nobody gets up and starts cleaning and then you get upset. I want to look at what what happened there. Assertiveness would be coming in going, yeah, it doesn't look like anybody did their chores today. I need everybody to get up and finish doing their chores before supper. Now that's asking for what you want instead of making a passive aggressive statement and expecting mind reading, expecting people to know what you want them to do. I'm forced by explaining the benefits to the other person ahead of time and I love this one. If Sam gets home late and you know late for dinner didn't call and Sally got into a complete, you know, whirlwind of stress because she didn't know what happened and he hadn't called. And dinner was ready and then dinner was burnt and you know, obviously you can just everything is spiraling out of control. If she starts the conversation with the I statement saying, I get really stressed when I don't hear from you, I would appreciate it. If you would call when you're going to be late, that would help me be less stressed and our evening would go a lot better. Well if Sam hears this win win in there he's going to go okay well I think I can probably pull out my cell phone and make a call because this right here is really unpleasant. So presenting the win win, making sure that the other person knows there's a benefit to them to adhering to your request. Mindfulness, stay focused on your goal. When you start having a discussion with someone about something. If you want them to change their behavior, or you want to get something or whatever it is stay focused on what your goal is and ignore diversion techniques such as blaming. Well you always do this. And if you didn't do this then I wouldn't be late. You know if you didn't call me six times during the day at work then I'd get done on time and I wouldn't be late so it's your fault that I'm late. We want to ignore that. Magnification using words like always never justification for why they were, you know, why Sam didn't call, you know he knew he was running late and justifying it by saying, you know, well you know that traffic is bad at this time of day and you shouldn't be getting all this upset, or just switching topics and talking about well, you know, three weeks ago you were late coming home from shopping and you didn't call. We're not talking about what I did three weeks ago we're talking about my request for you to call if you're going to be late coming home, so I don't get stressed. So helping clients stay mindful and not get distracted. A lot of our clients are in relationships with people who've learned that some of these techniques blaming justification and switching topics are often effective at diffusing the situation because it takes the client takes our client off topic. And then all of a sudden, you know that they're not as angry anymore and they can't figure out why but the problem hasn't been solved. My favorite boss, love him to death worked for him for 14 years. I would go into his office and I would be hot about something. And you know I worked for him for 14 years so he could kind of see it on my face and I'd walk in there and I'd be like, Richard we need to talk. And he'd be like, Okay, so I'd sit down and I tell him what was wrong and I would tell him what needed to happen. And, you know, because you always with him you always went in with a at least one proposed solution. And we talked for a little while and I'd walk out and then I'd get about halfway down the hall and I'd stop. Every time I'd get halfway down the hall and I'd stop and I'd be like wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute nothing changed. All he did was validate how I was feeling. And I felt better and I walked out and I still didn't have a proper solution. And I'd walk back in there and I'd be like you did it to me again and he just kind of laugh and he'd be like, Yeah, I did. There's nothing we can do about it right now. Okay. But helping clients understand that this is a technique that our significant others have learned to diffuse situations that we don't want to keep reinforcing it. So come back, help them figure out how to stay calm and stay focused on their goal. So okay we can table that discussion about how Sally didn't call when she was going to be late coming home from shopping. We'll talk about that in a few minutes. And now I really need to know that you're going to call if you're going to be late coming home from for dinner, because I know there's a lot of traffic and I get stressed and worried about you and then, you know, it ends up ruining the entire evening. Confident and verbal and nonverbal behavior, not looking at the ground, not wringing your hands well if you don't mind up here confident. This is what I need. And when clients have learned to tolerate their distress and de escalate themselves regulate their emotions a little bit by the time they get to this interpersonal effectiveness and problem solving, they're not freaking out. They're like, okay, I'm going to take a breath and we need to talk about something. So they can be confident. They are not feeling out of control and encourage them to focus on how much power they have, and how empowering it is to be able to down regulate their emotions and approach this in a confident manner. Reminding them that confidence comes through in verbals as well as nonverbals so not screaming, not talking really really fast because if I say it really really fast and maybe you won't get mad. No, talking a normal tone. If they start getting excited or wound up taking a breath and kind of scaling it back a bit and paying attention to their to their hands to their shoulders and to eye contact. You're going to always get what you want. So you can negotiate. You can offer and ask for other solutions. You can compromise. And you can say, you know, if they're asking you to do something, you can say no but offer alternatives there are ways to solve problems and most of the time when two people have a disagreement or there's a problem. You know, you're not always going to arrive at the best solution with the first thing that's proposed and that's okay. So if the person says, you know, that's that's not going to work for me. You may say, All right. I'm wondering if you have any suggestions that might solve the problem or what do you think might help solve this problem. And we can do that with our clients that we can model dear man go back here in session. When they come in and they say, Oh, I just had the worst week. Encourage them to describe it in specific objective terms and they may describe it not quite hit the mark we can paraphrase in specific objective terms. When they start expressing their feelings generally in therapy they're using those I statements. But if they start saying he made me blah, blah, blah, stopping them and say, Okay, let's put that in an I statement. I felt like when he encouraged them to practice that, you know, and obviously you're going to let them know ahead of time that this is something you're going to practice in session so they're used to doing it when they're not in session so they don't feel offended if you stop them and go okay. Let's go back and try to say that again as an I statement. Talk about assertion, asking for what you want, you know when we're listening to them recount their week, we may say, you know I'm not hearing where you actually directly asked for what you want wanted. You know how could you have done that so it was a little bit more clear. And, you know, for you expecting mind reading, did did you tell them what you needed. How did you express what the benefits were going to be. And when I first start working with clients on interpersonal skills. This is the one that probably gets forgotten the most because it's not just not what we're taught to do by nature is to explain the benefits to the person of, you know, fulfilling your request. What benefits would, would there be to Sam, if he followed, adhered to the request or agreed to the request. Mindfulness, okay, when you're having this discussion with Sam, did you feel like you were getting sidetracked did you feel like he was hearing you and staying on task or was he all over the place, were you all over the place and how could you be more mindful. And then coming back, you know, to that situation. What were your verbals and non verbals like, were you aggressive where you passive where you timid. Were you assertive what did it look like, and you know validate everything they do right, because even if there were some, there was a lot of passive stuff and a lot of timid stuff there was probably some a sort of stuff like just even opening the conversation. There was a lot of courage to do. So let's empower anything we can let's validate anything we can as positive. And then okay, maybe she and Sam didn't come to a meeting in the minds on this. So how could you have negotiated in order to arrive at a mutually agreeable alternative. This happens a lot when couples or families are trying to figure out what they're going to do for spring break or summer break or any kind of vacation. You know, one person wants to go to Disney World the other person wants to go hiking and somebody else wants to go to the beach and it's like well we can't go to all three. So what how can we solve this, how can we compromise. And you know sometimes you can just say no we're not going to do that but I'm willing to do these other three things. Another acronym is give. We've talked about problem solving a little bit clarifying what they want expressing to other people, what it is they want to need through dear man. Now we've got to have those other people around. So let's keep the relationships that we have. And like I said earlier, a lot of our clients relationships are kind of tenuous, because they are are very draining at times. Because other people don't understand it's not, you know, gentle, no attacks threats manipulation or judging no, you should you shouldn't know moralizing. You should be kind when you're talking to another person no sneering, no rolling your eyes, no smirking eye rolling or name calling. My daughter who's also a teenager said to me one day, my eyes must be the strongest muscle on my body, because I do at least 300 I rolls a day. I'm like, yeah, probably so. And she was exaggerating she's a good kid. Understanding that those nonverbals come through loud and clear. We know that 80% of our communication is nonverbal. So making sure that what you say is as gentle as possible. And the way you say it and your nonverbals are also not attacking. If you're pointing. Obviously that's more attacking than I'm wondering open hands. Act interested. Listen. Oh my gosh, here's there's a concept. Listen to what's being said with interest. Pay attention to nonverbals yours and theirs. So if they're talking, and you start getting bored and fidgeting and whatever, they're going to pick up on that. Pay attention to what both of your nonverbals are saying because if you get bored, or if you start getting closed off and hostile. How's that going to affect them. If you start becoming hostile, they're probably going to respond in kind and we're going to ramp up in negative intensity. Obviously there are sometimes where nonverbals are completely innocuous, you know, you're freezing. So you're standing there like this. Most of the time you can tell the difference between cold and irritated, but just be cognizant. Maintain eye contact. It's not all what you're not going to want to stare into someone's soul for 30 minutes, you know, you're going to break eye contact here and there. But if they're talking and you're looking around and watching the birds behind them and looking at the stuff on the floor counting on the tiles. They're going to pick up that you're not interested. So that's not a real good way to nurture a relationship. Try to unhook from your emotions. Again, a lot of our clients have difficulty doing this because as soon as they start to feel attacked or invalidated or threatened in some way. Their fight or flight their threat response just goes through the roof, which means they quit listening, they quit paying attention and they're in preservation mode. So we want to help them try to figure out how to unhook from their emotions in these conversations. So they're more like a scientist who is just hearing facts, hearing information and then processing it. It's difficult if you can give them a image, either of a scientist or a computer or a fly on the wall, you know flies not going to get all upset and start flying around in circles. The fly's just going to sit there and go, wow, that that person's getting really loud. So try to help them figure out how to unhook when they're having conversations with people so they aren't as tempted to react and act on their urges, sacrificing their long term goals. V is for validate, pay attention, reflect back, you know, basic paraphrasing 101. So what I hear you saying is, and yeah, it feels a little bit stilted at first, but eventually when people practice it, they get their own flow, they get their own words and you remember from when you started doing this in intro to counseling and your first practicum, it felt really weird at first, but then you got your own way of paraphrasing and reflecting back. Pay attention to what's not being said. What is the underlying message. What are you hearing maybe the person's telling you that you didn't call and how rude that was, what's the underlying message, maybe they felt disrespected, they were scared, not expecting people to be great at this, or again, be able to mind read, but paying attention and what things are being left out. Understand how the other person's reactions and thoughts make sense based on their past and present. The way they're acting, the way they're reacting. They learned to do that from somewhere and it was the most rewarding choice. So if they are freaking out because you forgot to call. In what way does that make sense. If they're freaking out there's tells you there's a fight or flight thing going on. Why are they angry or scared. Why do they perceive a threat. How does that make sense in some way, and you know what what's the next logical step from there. Acknowledge anything that's valid, if they make observations that are valid acknowledge those and support those and show a quality treating the other person is an equal not fragile, incompetent or domineering. You know, if you're dealing with someone who has emotional dysregulation and and has difficulty dealing with life on life terms a lot. You know that's okay, but know that they are strong people, especially having problems regulating their emotions making it this far that tells me they're really strong. We just need to give them the tools to have a happier life. They're not incompetent. So let's give them empower them to take steps on their own instead of trying to do things for them or care take them. So let's have an easy manner. Laugh, smile, you know if you're going to have just a general conversation with someone. Sit down and say hey let's let's talk about this for a second is that we need to talk. When I talk to my kids sometimes we have to have a serious discussion about something and you know I'll sit them down and we'll have a little talk. I like the ice making it appropriate joke here or there to get them to smile and it's like, you know, it's okay. It's, it's not going to be so bad. If you at least end the interaction on a higher note. It helps keep that relationship going because the person's doesn't walk out of that interaction going, oh, that was so awful. They're like, you know, it's unpleasant for a minute, but it's all good now. Next, be fair to yourself and the other person validating both of your feelings. I can see how you might feel this way. This is how I feel. I try to encourage clients not to use the word but because but invalidates everything that came before it so I see how you might feel but I don't care is kind of the under underlying thing. This is how I feel. So figuring out a way to express that with an and, you know, walking that middle path can be helpful. Don't apologize for your feelings or opinions. Maybe the way you present them, you might need to apologize, but your, your feelings and opinions are what they are. So don't apologize for feeling, you know, angry about something or even happy about something. Don't invalidate the valid. A lot of our clients will minimize their strengths. They'll minimize things they've done because they don't want to be seen as bragging or domineering or they don't want to risk rejection in any way. But we don't want them to do that. We want them to take ownership of the really good stuff they do. Stick to your values. If something is important to you, then that's okay. It doesn't mean it has to be important to someone else, you know, they're going to stick to their values too. But if it's important to you then maintain that in the things that you say and the things that you do and try to embrace that value and then be truthful. Don't lie, exaggerate or make up excuses. If you screwed up, you screwed up say, you know what, I'm sorry. That was my bad. I won't do it again. Or, you know, try not, if you're blaming somebody for something, obviously try not to blame. Try to say, when this happens, I feel like it's disrespectful. I wish you would instead of trying to blow it into or instead of blowing it into something that's monumental, which is really hard because a lot of our clients because they don't want to state their feelings. They don't want to speak up for themselves. They've stuffed down this whole litany of done me wrongs and eventually whatever they say something about is probably the straw that broke the camel's back. And then all of a sudden it's just like, ugh, you've disrespected me in these 270 different ways over the past 12 years. And the person's just kind of sitting there going, whoa, where did that come from? So helping your clients understand that their emotional dysregulation can come from, and sometimes these explosions, if you will, can come from stuffing stuff down for so long. So they need to become mindful of what do they have stuffed down in that closet? Or if you want to think of it as a pressure cooker, you know, what do they have in there? If they're maintaining that pressure cooker just at the point where the top won't blow off, they need to figure out how to let off some of the pressure. What's under there that they can deal with and get rid of? So asking for something or saying no. And Linehan proposed 10 levels. I usually distill it, well, not usually, I distill it down to five. I find it's easier for my clients to remember sort of on the fly if it's five. So, level one, you ask tentatively, you know, would you mind helping me move this weekend? You know, and take no for an answer if the person says no, it's like, okay, not a problem. If they ask you to do something, and you know, it's not a big deal either way, you don't really care, you can agree, but express your opinions. You know, I'd rather not, but you know what, I'll do it. Level two is asking confidently. This is something that's a little bit more important, but you're still willing to take no. I need you to help me get food from the feed store this weekend. Are you going to be able to work that into your schedule? If the person says no, then I might counter with some other proposal. Okay, I need to get chicken feed. Is there a time that you can help me or what time can you help me this weekend or this week to get that chicken feed? If they ask you to do something, and it's, you're not really wanting to do it, say no confidently, but be willing to reconsider. You know, they might go, well, you know, what if I made it worth your while, and then you're going to be like, okay. Level three, ask confidently. Resist no. This is something you really need, and you don't, it's kind of important. So you're going to resist just accepting no at face value. You're going to try to negotiate a little bit. Same thing if somebody asks you to do something and you really, really don't want to say no firmly and really resist saying yes. It's not just one of those things that, all right, fine. You wore me down. You looked at me for 30 seconds. Level four, you ask firmly. You insist and negotiate, or you say no firmly insist and negotiate. It's like, no, that's really not something I can do. How about, and this would come up with substance abuse clients, for example, if their friends want to, if their friends want to go to a bar, that may not be a good place for them to be, and they may say, you know, no, that's not something I can do, and I have to insist on that. I'd be happy to go do these other three things with you, and that's totally fine. And then level five is ask firmly and insist. This is something I really need to have done. It's important. And on the saying, no, if it's something that's really important to your self-esteem, your long-term goals, your health, your wellness, you may have to say, no, that's just not something I can do. For example, in Tennessee, marijuana is not legal. I'm not willing to be around it. I will not be around it. End of story. And I will insist. There's no negotiation with that one. So encouraging clients to understand where their different levels are. Points to consider when deciding whether you're going to ask for something or say no. Can this person deliver? Or if you're going to agree to do something, can you deliver? Or are you going to, you already have six things going on this weekend and you cannot possibly help them move? Does it relate to high or low priority goals? Because, you know, everybody only has so much energy. So is this a priority? Is this something you want to ask somebody to give you some of their energy for? Or is this something you have energy to give somebody else? How important is this on an energy basis? How will it impact your self-respect to say no or to take no for an answer? What are each person's rights and values in the situation? Not saying we're going to change them, but what are their rights? You know, is their right to say no? What are their values? And, you know, we want to respect those in relationships that we want to keep going. What's the effect of your action on your long-term goals? If I say yes to this, is that going to get me closer to where I want to be and being the type of person I want to be? Or is it going to keep me right here? No movement at all, which that's okay too. Or is it going to send me backwards? How much give and take is in the relationship? If I'm asking for something, am I always the one that's asking for something? And I'm always taking and not giving. Likewise, is the other person, if they're asking me for something, are they always taking and not giving? Or is it more balanced in give and take? Have you done your homework? Do you know what needs to be done and what you want to have happen? You know, if you want to have your house painted, well, that's great, we're having our house painted right now. But what's the homework? How much time needs do the painters need? And, you know, what do you want to have accomplished during that period of time? Just the walls, the walls and the trim, the walls, the trim and the doors, yada, yada. And this helps you plan. In our particular situation, they said, first it was going to be an eight day job. And I was like, yeah, that sounds about right. Then they came in the first day and they're like, oh, we'll have this done in two days. And I'm like, you're funny. And they hadn't ordered enough paint and all kinds of things. So they didn't do their homework. And then timing. Sometimes the person would be more than happy to do it, but they've got something else huge going on right now that they can't put off. So consider the timing when you're asking someone for a favor or for whatever it is. We have those wonderful relationships. We're talking about how to maintain those, how to ask for what we want to make it a give and take and even balance. Great. But let's also look at finding some new relationships. Where do we find those? Finding people with similar interests. Now we're going to talk in a minute about introverts versus extroverts, but introverts tend to only have a couple of really, really close friends. And being around a lot of people can be energy draining. Extroverts, on the other hand, tend to know like they seem like they know everybody and being around people is recharging for them. So when we're encouraging our clients to go out and find new relationships, if we're telling an introvert to go to parties, they're just going to look at you with these big eyes and be like, oh, no, no, can't do that. If we suggest something that's a little smaller, you know, five or 10 people, then that would be something completely different. Encourage them to work on conversational skills. Learn how to ask open ended questions, obviously the ones that don't end with yes or no. Make small talk. And in order to make small talk, they have to be aware of current events and talking about things that aren't necessarily highly emotionally charged. We practice this or I encourage clients to practice this in the first five minutes of group or before group starts. Practice making small talk with their group mates and asking open ended questions just to get used to it. And when I'm in there, I'm kind of getting ready for group, trying not to look like I'm eavesdropping as much even though they know I am. And I will comment later privately, usually to people about, you know, that was a really good point you made or, you know, you're really progressing on being able to maintain conversations and keep them going. Find common ground. Well, that seems, seems reasonable. Ask people about, you know, what are your interests? What kind of music do you like? Do you like to work out? You know, whatever your interests are, see if you can find something in common with them. And be fully aware of skillfully self disclosing. We've all met people, especially online, but we've all met people who just meet you and then they say things that are like, Oh, wow, too much information, way too much. It's important to learn what's appropriate. And, you know, that give and take of reciprocal self disclosure as we talked about in, you know, graduate school. It's important and we're used to it, but not everybody is goes through that same training. Be aware of disinhibition online though. If you meet somebody online and you're talking to them online. A lot of times people will say things online that they wouldn't say to your face, just because they don't even think about it. You know, they're not face to face. So it's not nearly as embarrassing to say something and then be like, you know, Oh, I mean to say that. Encourage clients to be cognizant of what they type. So introverts get enter. I got that backwards. Sorry. Extroverts get energized around other people are more aware of what is going on around them. So they're aware of the environment and they can draw on people's energy. They like to figure things out while they talk. So if they've got a problem, they're going to be like, Oh, let me tell you what happened today. And I just don't know what I'm going to do. And they'll just keep talking. And then they'll come to a conclusion. And that's just how they process cool. And they don't mind interruptions either. They're just kind of free floating and thinking and processing as they go. Introverts, on the other hand, have to exert energy to be around other people. It's not that they have low self esteem or anything like that. It's just a difference in the way they interact with people. They are much more aware of what's going on inside them and figure things out and then talk. They'll have a problem. They'll go sit somewhere quiet. They'll think about it come up with some solutions and then they'll call up their best friend and be like, Hey, I have this problem and these are the three solutions I came up with. What do you think? And they tend to prefer peace and quiet. So like I said, I got those two labels backwards. Sorry. Your introverts think intro know what's going on inside and need some quiet time. They need time for intro spectrum. Maintaining relationships. Be be self aware. What do you have going on? What are you projecting? And how are you impacting others? Be aware of your impact on others. So if you're in a bad mood, how does that impact everybody around you? If you're in a good mood, how does that impact everybody around you? Because both of them have an impact. Encourage clients to become aware of and pay attention to what I generically call transference issues. If they remind you of somebody. Or if a client has a friend that reminds them of somebody. Make sure they understand who they're responding to. If they get upset at their best friend who reminds them of their mother or does something that reminds them of their mother. Are they really getting that upset with their best friend or is it some of that stuff that we were talking about that's been pushed down. Pay attention with interest and curiosity. Listen to what they have to say. And, you know, even if you don't agree, kind of ask yourself. Wow, how could they have possibly come up with that? At least that gives you a little bit of curiosity somewhere. Stop multitasking. Don't be playing on your phone and watch on TV. Put things down. Pay attention to the relationship. Stay in the present instead of planning your response. Instead of, you know, sometimes a lot of American culture actually, as soon as we finish speaking. The other person is responding and we're already trying to plan the next thing we're going to say instead of hearing what they have to say in response. Focus on the people around you. Pay attention to how they're feeling, you know, what their nonverbals are. In order to maintain relationships, you know, if you're working in an office setting and Jane over there seems kind of down today. How awesome would it be to go over and be like Jane, you seem kind of down today. Anything I can do to help. As opposed to just sitting in your chair and being like, looks like Jane's having a bad day. Oh well. Be open to new information. You may have an idea about something and there was a thing that came down from the house or something about killing bears and their dens. And, you know, I got all fired up about it because I'm a big animal rights advocate. But when I put it out there, I was like, okay, somebody explained to me how this is needed. Why is this important and how could it have passed, you know, the house. Give me some new information that makes this makes sense because right now, I'm pretty darn ticked off, but you know, I may not know the whole story. So encourage people to approach things tentatively and try to let go of judgmental thoughts about other people. Give up always being right. Because guess what? You ain't. Avoid assuming you know what other people think. You know what they say about assuming. Avoid questioning other people's motives. You don't know what their motives were. So you may ask them. Go with the flow instead of always trying to control the flow. And I have a little picture of a Newton's cradle here. When you pull that one ball out, it hits and the energy transfers and that other ball goes out and then back and forth and back and forth. The energy is always being transferred. It's a given a take. It's a given a take and we want our relationships to be more like Newton's cradle. Sometimes our clients have to end unhealthy relationships. So we want to encourage them to make the decision in the wise mind, not the emotional mind. If somebody does something and they get upset. All right. Give it a little bit before you go. Oh, I'm never talking to that person again. Get out of the emotional mind into your wise mind so you can evaluate all of the information. So when you're problem solving if the relationship is important and not destructive. Troubleshoot problems if you're going to have a discussion with somebody troubleshoot problems with that how that's going to go ahead of time and rehearse your coping strategies. So when you're having the discussion, you're able to maintain your composure. Be direct. Don't beat around the bush say, you know, there's problem. Obviously the opposite action for love and this is this is kind of one that's difficult to wrap your head around sometimes. Obviously the opposite action is hate. What I encourage clients to do if they romanticize a bad relationship. And they can tell me all the wonderful things about Johnny or Sally or whoever it is. Okay, those are all the wonderful things. But I hear you're in pain a lot. So tell me what the negatives are to this relationship and I want you to remember those when you start going back to romanticize how awesome it is. And be safe. Obviously if it's a violent relationship at all. Encourage clients to be very safe and consult a domestic violence shelter and all that kind of stuff at a time. Walking the middle path. The universe is filled with opposing sides and forces. There's always more than one way to see a situation and more than one way to solve a problem. So we can always ask. Tell me how you see this what's your opinion. Do you have other information. Do you have other ideas about how to solve the problem. We don't have to be right, but we may have this goal out here. You know, I need this to happen. So what are some other ways we can achieve that goal. Two things that seem opposite can be true. Remembering that everything is interconnected in some way like a butterfly butterfly flaps his wings moves the air, then what happens. Thinking about your vulnerabilities, you know, if you don't get enough sleep, and you wake up and you're tired, then how does that affect the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And, you know, that's how it's affecting you, but you're encountering people along the way. How are you impacting the clerk that was at the gas station when you got gas how are you impacting the person that you cut off in traffic how are you impacting your, your office mates. So everything is interconnected, and all those people are inner interfacing with you and impacting you. That's the truth of all over time. And each moment is an opportunity for a new reality. So what is true right now. Well, that now is passed. We're in a new now and a new now. What we do influences our environment and the people in it, and they influence us back. So if we are happy and nice to someone, and they smile back, how does that affect you, you know, think about how there's is not just a one way. Keep your balance by using your wise mind to ask, Okay, what am I missing in this. Try to let go of extremes and change either or to both and is we don't have to have either this or that. How could we get both how could we both be happy. How could we make a win win balance opposites by that validating both sides, you know, argue both sides and see what you come up with. You know, eliminate or find the silver lining. This bad stuff happens, but there's also good stuff. What what good can come out of this treat others as you want to be treated. No explanation needed. Try to look for similarities with people not differences. You may disagree on a lot of stuff, but what similarities do you have okay you're both human. That's a good place to start. You both have kids. Okay, so try to build on that. Practice radical acceptance and practice accepting change because change happens. Pay attention to your impact on others how they impact you. Let go of blame. You know, it doesn't do anybody. Any good if I'm blaming, then I'm putting the other person on the defensive, and we're probably not getting anywhere we're not creating a win win we're creating a lose lose and remember that all behaviors are caused. They are the best choice. Given all the available options the person had at that point in time. So, how did this behavior how did this reaction possibly make sense. And how could we change it so in the future. That's not the best option. We want to balance accepting change and accepting what is and changing reality. We want to balance validating ourselves and going you know what darn it. I'm okay and acknowledging errors. I'm okay but I mess up sometimes work and rest needs and wants self improvement versus self acceptance. We tell people they want we want them to accept themselves for who and how they are. And then we pardon me then we talk about self we need to help them self improve. So help them balance that independence and dependence, openness and privacy, trust and suspicion, and focusing on self versus focusing on others. You can see how all of these are vital to our survival. But you don't want to be on one extreme or the other there's there's got to be a balance somewhere. People with emotion dysregulation often struggle in relationships due to lack of effective interpersonal skills, a need for external validation and lack of clarity about what they actually need. The necessary goals in interpersonal effectiveness for them is to help them clarify their wants and needs, enhance their assertiveness and interpersonal skills, enhance their self esteem so they're not always looking for external validation and develop and maintain supportive relationships. And I was right. I didn't leave you any time to take your quiz so you still have a little bit. Obviously, like I said, it's you get 1.5 hours of CEUs. But do you have any questions. If you enjoy this podcast, please like and subscribe either in your podcast player or on YouTube. You can attend and participate in our live webinars with Dr. Snipes by subscribing at all CEUs.com slash counselor toolbox. This episode has been brought to you in part by all CEUs.com providing 24 seven multimedia continuing education and pre certification training to counselors, therapists and nurses since 2006. Use coupon code counselor toolbox to get a 20% discount off your order this month.