 I'm Jean-Marthe Lim and on behalf of the team here at JSA, thank you for tuning in to our latest virtual CEO roundtable, also our last one of 2021. Before we get started, I wanted to quickly share that JSA is seeking top innovators across the globe to collaborate on a book entitled Greener Data, insights on reducing carbon emissions from leaders in digital infrastructure. The book will make its Amazon debut on Earth Day on the 22nd of April 2022. If you'd like to learn more about the book and submit for a co-authorised consideration, please visit jsa.net-greener-data. But back to today's event, our first 100 registrants for this stream will have received a fresh lunch delivered to your door, or a gift card to order your own meal. And today we are excited to share our JSA virtual roundtables on a new platform to include the first in the industry virtual networking experience with a unique opportunity to talk face-to-face without the event attendees before and after the panel. Make sure you head back to the networking lounge after the discussion for live networking with speakers and attendees of today's event. As a quick reminder for everyone who has joined us today, we look forward to your participation during this event, so please feel free to add any questions that you may have into the chats or request a mic to come on camera and ask your question directly to our speakers. If you have any questions about upcoming roundtables, whatever it may be, such as how to register or how to participate, feel free to reach out to us through our website at jsa.net. And also by the way, just as a reminder to mark your new calendars, our next virtual roundtable will cover telecom and data centers and look at the lessons learned and predictions for the new year. And without further delay, let's get started. Today we'll be looking at the state of the European data center and network infrastructure market. As 2021 draws to a close and COVID is still flagging our world, forcing new ways to engage in new business, it's time to take a temperature check on our network infrastructure market and in the state of the European data center partnerships, opportunities, challenges and predictions for 2022. It is my pleasure to also introduce you our exceptional executive lineup, which includes Anthony Clarkson, technical director for immediate in India, a precision OT, David Barker, founder and CTO of 4D data centers, Alex Rabbits, director of Corazon and managing director for the European data center association, Gary Connolly, founder of hosting Ireland and Tash Mehta, associate director at Vipa digital. I'm actually quite excited to have this lineup of speakers. I'm sure this discussion is going to be really, really engaging. So before going in with any clever questions, I'm just going to ask you a general question to the panelists. I mean, how do you describe the current state of the market? Who would like to take the first shot? There you go, David. Jump in first then. You're in the race here. Yeah, it's very good to put it short. Across Europe, obviously more familiar with the London market. That's where we operate. There's been a lot of demand over the past 12, 18 months. There's still a lot of supply coming online. Some of that supply is delayed due to various mostly supply constraints from construction. But overall, we're seeing extremely high demand. A lot of people still moving IT out of their offices. A lot of on-prem still migrating into data centers and a lot of growth in people doing services that facilitate remote working. OK, Tash. Yeah, I mean, really just adding to what David said, there has been a huge increase in demand and, you know, we can all think that as a result of COVID, people working from home just increased use for phones, smartphones, we were talking about. And yeah, working from home, it's just huge at the moment. I also predominantly know the London area because that's where I'm based. But in all of the kind of flat D as the term is, you know, Frankfurt, London, Amsterdam, Paris, Dublin, they're growing in all of the other parts of the mirror as well. OK, well, Gary, would you like to add is the doubling side of things? I guess it's extraordinary what's happening, really, because we've heard so much about the Industrial Revolution 4.0 that commenced, you know, in and around 2017. And from there, you know, you heard a lot of C level people talking about digital transformation. And I think what we've seen over the last 18 months in particular is a digital acceleration. So for those that were already on that journey, internal, external, whether it's business to business or business to consumer, the acceleration and adoption of digital services for many companies, as the other two speakers said, whether it's via the handset, whether it's via a headset or whether it's via desktops, it's been a lifeline for business and it's not going to change. You know, habits, this is the key thing I think that we're seeing now is that if we had to have this disruption for six months, habits may not have formed or we're entering into our second full year of businesses being transformed and having to depend on the infrastructure, including the centres of data, and it's not going to be reversed. So I think from a a a a double in perspective with the growth that we're seeing, it's on a percentage, you know, year on year, same as the other North Virginia, Frankfurt, London, Amsterdam and Paris. I mean, I think we're all looking at 24, 25 percent compounding annual, you know, growth. But the big difference is in in in in Dublin is projects that were predicted for 2024 to start are already out of the ground. So we've eaten into what you call that fat that was there for that spike. That sort of fat is starting to diminish and now we're starting to to eat into what we thought we'd need for 2024 and beyond. So I think it's just starting. I know that's hard for people to believe, but I think for those that are in the data and look at IDC and look at Gartner, when you look at sort of the predictions for 20, 27 that the amount of data in the world today is only 16 percent of the data that will be here in 20, 26 or 27. You know, think about, OK, it won't be one on one, but it's just starting because digital is not forced anymore with businesses. It's nearly digital only. And by the way, we have offline stuff as well. Should you should you want to have a look at it? I mean, I mean, what you're saying is amazing, because we've seen Microsoft this year announcing the intention to build 50 to 100 data centers a year, just to try and cope with this as an example. I mean, we used to get excited about one data center, one billion dollars. Now we get anything below one billion. It's almost not even worth writing about. So I mean, it's really accelerating. And I mean, Facebook is investing 26 billion this year alone. That's more than most data center companies valuation at the moment. And that's only one company. But Alex, give us an overview of the European situation. So yes, so Europe is like everywhere else. It's boring. It's happening everywhere. But I think what's interesting is that some of the Nordic countries are coming up now and there's a huge amount of development going on up there. There's a huge amount of development going on in Eastern Europe, which was wasn't there before. The connectivity is there now. The power has always been there. So I think that it is an incredibly boy market at the moment and everywhere, just literally everywhere, we've flapped even kind of all know about it's kind of been there for a while now. But there's other other places that are up and coming. You know, Marseille, Lyon, other, you know, just other cities now that are really beginning to come up behind. And I think it's great because it just shows that the growth in the industry is huge. Yeah, I mean, we've seen a lot of movements in the north, especially in the north. I mean, all the acquisitions that we've seen, Green Mountain, Digiplex, the birth of new companies in Finland willing to spend one billion dollars. We've seen all the development across the entire Southern Europe, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, South of France. So it's incredible what's happening in this market. Anthony. Yeah. Not much to add to what the other speakers have said, really, just that we are seeing kind of phenomenal growth, whether that's in existing capacity and existing data centers or new data center builds from new players as well as existing players expanding into new territories. It's kind of growth everywhere, really. And it's because of those bandwidth demands. I mean, every day I'm seeing reports from some of the service providers across Europe that they're hitting their maximum data transferred on their own internal networks and external networks. They keep breaking records every week. It's the data usage is phenomenal. And with them with the working from home, it's getting bigger and bigger. Do we have any fears that that usage might drop once people start getting back to work? I guess not in the next two months, unfortunately over the next maybe six to eight months. Did you guys see any change? And they're not going back to work. They're not going back. There was a survey out yesterday that said that said out of four out of five people who worked from home during the pandemic do not want to ever go back to the office. So it just won't change. It's just going to keep rising, I believe. The profile will change. You know, what happened ultimately during the first phases of the pandemic was the amount of data that was being manipulated and used was similar. It just wasn't being manipulated through a big pipe into a business. It was being distributed into smaller pipes into people's homes. But effectively what you found was the value of a centralized data system or a hybrid data system came to the fore. And what we're finding now and to the other speaker's point is that a lot of people during that period that maybe had still a lot of on-premise stuff realized they couldn't get essential workers to their office so they couldn't get into their office so they couldn't get access to the office. So I think what it's facilitated is, you know, hybrid the coming away from your on-premise to a co-location managed services. So where the data is manipulated from and where the data centers because this is a key thing, why clusters will remain strong like flap D is because for every packet of data that goes to a device, there could be up to 10 packets of data between data centers. So that's why the interoperability is so important for the clusters. So I think the data itself as a dataverse or what they call it now, the new metaverses, yeah, they're growing and growing. But what's happening is that you've got more machine to machine, data center to data center, data center to end user, data center to businesses. But effectively it's constantly growing, but it's just coming from different places. And I guess all the other speakers will talk about the edge and stuff like that. But homes are just a new or a variant of the edge, aren't they? That's all they are. And what is the edge? It's just wherever you access your data and whether it's the device or eyeballs. So let's look at the end users homes like a small node on the edge. Right. The edge of the edge. The edge of the edge. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Anthony, David, sorry. Yeah, I think we could have a whole other panel discussion on how you define edge. We still haven't come up with a definition. So to kind of echo what the other people have said, what we've seen in our customer base is a lot of people who either couldn't access their officers during the lockdowns or have decided to downsize or move out of city center locations to giving up their officers and they're taking the IT they had on prem, putting it into a data center and everyone's just connecting remotely into that. So even if their workers go back into the office, they're still going to connect remotely from their office to the data center location. And we've seen, I would say that's probably been the driver of two thirds of the deals we've done in the last 18 months is people. On prem. And I think that says quite a lot to I remember five years ago, six years ago, everyone saying all the on prem stuff is gone. It's already out of people's offices. There's no more on prem to move. And I think what this has shown in the last 18 months is there's still a lot of IT on prem in people's people's offices. David, they often say there's no more cobalt in the world. And yet there's an awful lot of cobalt. And the clouds are going to kill the data center market, you know. Well, it's called the the clique baits headlines to attract the eyes in. But actually, I mean, now they're bringing the data of actually people going to data centers more outside of the city centers. That's actually a trend that we've seen growing in the last few years. And I guess in the last 24 months, especially this year, we've really seen the main metros, the expansion outside the main metros take place, not just in the UK, but across Europe. I mean, Ireland is the same thing. We've seen it a bit in the Nordics. We've seen we're seeing starting to see it now in France as well more heavily. How do you guys see the trends of operators moving outside of the big cities? Is this I guess it will be sustained, I guess, from what you just said. But how do we see these spanning out over the next, say, five to ten years? I think it will continue because the only places that we've got space to build new data centers are outside of city centers. You've got some constraints on fiber and network connectivity in areas. But there that's overcome a ball with with enough capital, certainly for people like Microsoft and Facebook, they can solve those problems. I mean, one of the reasons our data centers have been outside. We never opened one in central London. And that's mostly because the cut the engineers of our customers don't live in the center of cities and having been a customer of Telly City and Equinix and everything in the past, or Redbus and Rx Europe, as it was, going from where you live into a city center to go to a data center is a pain. No one really wants to do it. So if you can bring the data centers out of the city center, you make access easier, they're cheaper to build, they're cheaper to run. And you generally, both going back to the edge term, you're closer to where your users are. OK, Anthony. Yeah. I was just going to say something very similar is as we just discussed the kind of the profile of where the workplace is, is changing. The workplace isn't in the city centers anymore. And coupled with that, the mass rollout of fiber infrastructure across the whole of the region has meant that there aren't the not spots anymore that there were is yet if you Facebook or Google, you build a data center wherever the power is cheap because you'll get fiber to it. But nowadays, you can get fiber anywhere and it's becoming more ubiquitous, which makes it easier and location becomes less about being close to everybody else because everybody else is spread out. That's actually a very good point, because we've seen also a lot of investments in 2021 around just rural inclusion, building fiber networks across rural areas of several different countries, especially in France. Even to us, just reading a three billion dollar a three billion euro roadmap to build France's rural fiber networks. Alex, I think you wanted to add something. Yeah, I was just going to say, you know, I think I think that the the the the flat D kind of model, I think will change. I know that Gary won't let me tell you this, but I think it will change in the sense that there will be additions to flat D. Flat D will always be there, will always be a requirement, but there will be additional places, additional new hubs that come along. And I think that's probably a good thing because, you know, flat D has had its issues over the over the last few years. But you know, you're going to see more hubs coming in different areas than I think that I think demand, that's about what David said, really. You know, the demand is not in those major cities anymore. It is certainly true that interoperability is still important. But equally, the demand will be driven by different factors. So, you know, it may be driven by sustainability, it may be driven by cost, it may be driven by by by location of engineers, but certainly there are going to be new hubs, I believe. OK, 100%. And let's hope for a global society perspective that happens as well, because, you know, what's often forgotten about these forums and certainly when I go to events, there's not enough discussion around data, the way too much discussion around centres. We don't need centres unless we understand data. And not all data is the same. You know, not all cats running up curtains needs to be in a high latency, sensitive, very high energy location. It can be anywhere. It can be up as high in the north as you can have it. So what we have to do and what we're going to start to see now becoming more and more prevalent is, you know, we're entering a era where we're going to have 160 or 170 zeta bytes of data. That's not going to sit in 10 metros. There'll be portions of that which will be analytics requirements. So that can be anywhere it needs to be. You're going to have time sensitive stuff and that's going to need to be other closer to other data sensitive data. And then you're going to have other stuff that's going to genuinely need to be close to the device that it needs to be close to. So when we look at data and we look at the trends and data, that'll dictate to a great degree where the centres go. So it's no surprise that you're seeing multiple billion dollar euro rollouts everywhere, because ultimately where you have 40 million people, that's classified as a proximity zone for data. So what is that proximity zone for data? It's the end users want access to Airbnb, Spotify, Netflix. So these providers are on top of the hyperscales and to a great degree or AWS. So everywhere you see a 40 million catchment, whether that's Milan, whether that's Marseille, whether that's now you're going to see a proximity zone. So I think what will happen and what I'd like to hope will happen is more and more of the centre people start to learn more about data. And then we can actually sell the value of the data centre industry to policymakers and people. Because when I listen to data centre people talking about their value, it's always about energy. It's always about water. It's all about the hell and they don't talk about the why. So exactly what Alex is saying, you know, there are physical constraints in metros, whether they're North Virginia, whether they're Singapore, Frankfurt, London, you know, there's two total different sciences at play here. There's photonics science and there's electron science. And one since Faraday goes very slowly. It's a big, arduous, capital intensive industry. The data industry is just always been so nimble. So I think the more people, if you want to understand where the centres are going to reside, learn about the different subsets of data. And there's so much data, it'll all be that type of data there, that type of data there, that type of data there. And that's to me what I think will have to happen for us to have more informed and better discussions with journalists, with policymakers, with all of these people, because right now they just see big sheds sucking in electrons. Why? Can I just can I just comment there on John? Gary, I think it's really interesting this. But first of all, I agree with Gary what you're saying. You know, there is too much discussion about the centre and not enough about the data. I totally agree with you. I think one thing we've missed is Smart Cities, which I think are going to drive data centre construction in a new way. But I also think that Gary makes a really, really good point here about the whole industry and the way it talks. And you know, Joe, I've said this before, but, you know, people are always talking about, I've got a hundred megawatt data centre. I've got a hundred and fifty megawatt data centre. I've got this. I've got that. It's ridiculous. This mind is bigger than yours. What they should be saying is, look, here are the benefits of my data centre. This is what happens. This is how you get your Netflix. This is how you get to do things that you do. This is how we get a vaccine for this pandemic. You know, these are the benefits. Forget the power. Nobody's interested in the amount of power you've got. What they're interested in is the benefits you bring to society and the economy. And I think that's just something that as an industry, we've been absolutely terrible at for years and years and years. We've just been going, oh, I've got a hundred megawatts of power. And it's it's it's ridiculous. It's just it's just silly. But let me read in Tash now, because you've also written a piece recently on this, which was a really good thought leadership piece. So Tash, share with us your your thoughts. Yeah, it's really we've been looking at the, I guess, the tier two data centre market. I mean, a few of the other panellists have already spoken about how the flap D region isn't isn't, you know, not the only region. And I think we've mentioned a few of the other areas which are being looked at the Nordics, Milan, East and Eastern Europe as well. And yeah, I think it's just really adding on to what has been said, obviously, the increased demand and just that. I mean, there you think about all of the areas where there's a high population where there's a lot of, I guess, younger people as well. There's demand for IT and services, all of that concentration. And it's it's throughout Europe, of course. So you can't just have, you know, the data centres in certain parts of in those parts where they traditionally have been like they need to be everywhere because they are needed. No, absolutely. Before I carry on, let me just ask if any attendees want to ask any questions, do you put them in the box now and they will go through them in a few minutes in about 10 minutes or so. I know we've already kind of mentioned energy and we can talk about benefits as well on top of energy, but there's a lot of conversation around energy in Europe. So I just wanted to ask you guys, if you think a lot of this conversation is panic or do we have a real issue on our hands in terms of providing power to facilities? Who because we've seen a lot of things. We've seen things in Dublin, in Ireland. We've seen in the Netherlands. We've seen in the UK as well, in some places. There's a few other markets out there. They are having this conversation, this problem. New markets are up and coming markets. They are having this discussion now, especially around hydrogen and everything. What would you guys think? Because we've also got a natural energy crisis on our hands in terms of just even heating houses and all this sort of thing. So give us your view. Who would like to go first? Gary, David. You see, you're starting from you're starting from a great place there that there's a Europe has an energy security and supply issue due to non data center related stuff. However, if one was to believe the press, national, international, you think that data centers are responsible for everything to do with energy crisis, blackouts and all these other very highly emotive words. The reality is, is the world. And if you look to COP26 and you took the takeaways, there are two mega trends going on right now. There's a decarbonization of all of our societies on every level. And that decarbonization, particularly for transport and for home heating is going to depend on electrical grids. So those electrical grids in their own right are gone through a massive, autonomous decarbonization process, which is challenging when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine and we can't make green hydrogen efficient costs. So that in its own right is a challenge, irrespective of anything. Then we throw on the second mega trend, which is back to what we said earlier of the fourth industrial revolution, which is the digitalization of the planet or the dematerialization of the planet created by digital. Yeah. And you then throw that on top of this natural decarbonization and something has to give. One is at a thousand miles an hour. As our co-panelists were talking earlier, we can change the speed between data centers by time of 10 by two cards going into two routers. That's it. That's all we have to do on a different end of fiber. You try that with electricity. So when those two universes collide, guess what? You don't just have scientific collisions, you've mindset collisions as well, because no disrespect to anybody that's on this call that comes from a grid development or an engineering background for electricity. But it's a different mindset to the data mindset. If we're not changing every 10 months, we're going through slow. Traditionally, grids haven't changed that much in a hundred years. So that's a whole philosophy colliding, but it's easy, isn't it? When you have change, you have different reactions. Some people embrace it. Some people beat it up and some people run away. And there's no running away from the digitalization thing. And it's causing conflict. And the overall desire now should be like what we have now in Dublin, for instance, we're lucky to this regard. We have built the national climate action plan. Top level feeding into that is the national grid development to be decarbonized by 80 percent. And feeding into that is how we're going to facilitate another two gigawatts of data centers. So that gives us some wiggle room as distinct to trying to, which is happening in so many other places, transpose an industry on top of an already industry that's trying to get its head around security, supply, cost, and then, of course, and I'll leave it to the other speakers. We've had such a unique situation the last seven months. It's called the Great Cam. It's been called the lowest wind in Europe in 70 years. So what that's done is that's taught us, hey, we better get working on another option as well as wind as well as solar. And that's why you've got so many discussions now around nuclear again. Right? I mean, we have the perfect non storm over the last few months. That's what they call it, the Great Cam. You have a label for everything these days, don't we? Of course you have to. I mean, what's a storm without a name as well and like anything without a name or an acronym. They've done a lot worse since we've named them. That's what I've noticed. We've lost them. Alex, let me bring you into this as well, because you're very involved with the energy conversations. There's also the European data center pack energy pack. So I forgot the exact name of the pack, but you can correct me. OK, so yeah, I just just just make a very quick point of what I was saying there. But I think that as an industry, and I go back to what I said earlier about changing language as an industry, we have brought this on ourselves when we've talked constantly about power, about the amount of power we've got in reservation and the amount of power we want, etc. This is what's given governments the impression that we are pariahs and that we're actually responsible for all the blackouts and the shortages and everything else, because it's not actually true. But just to mention, the Climate Neutral Data Center pack, it's called. So that's a pack that was initiated by the European Data Center Association in conjunction with SIPCY. And what it's about is basically we have an agreement and we are creating a pathway. The concept is fully created. We are creating a pathway now to actually become climate neutral by 2030. Now, the pack is obviously a fantastic thing with signatures to it range from everybody from the big hyperscalers down to smaller operators down to really small operators. But the signatures are enormous. I can't remember the actual number anymore. But the point about it is that, you know, as an industry, we have got to look inward as well. I mean, we are great for the environment, if that's the truth. We, you know, whilst we've talked about power for years and given governments the impression that we're not good for the environment, we are, you know, if you want the latest Ed Sheeran CD, what's what's better for the environment? Download it from the internet or go and extract minerals from the ground and transport them and make them into plastics, print them, package them, distribute them and get them to a shop. And I get my car and go buy it. It's clearly better to download it. So that analogy can be applied to the automotive industry, to food, to whatever you want to apply it to. So data sets are very good for the environment. But we have given the impression through our own language that we are, in fact, bad for the environment because all we talked about for 20 years, over 20 years, as I'm obviously ancient. So I remember when this all started, when I used to work, work many years ago in what was called intelligent buildings before anybody had even thought of data centers. But when this all started, the first thing that everybody was, I've got this much power and I've got this much. And that's really what's brought it on ourselves. So we've got to change now the way we talk. And when we talk to Europe, when we, when we're through the Climate Neutral Data Center back, we're talking to Europe all the time. And we're talking to the commissioners and we're talking to the to the policymakers. And when we're talking to them, we've had to change the way we talk and start talking about the benefits that we bring the data of you, like what Gary said, you know, we've got to start talking about the benefits and and stop talking about power. Because the first thing they do is they come to the table. They say, well, you're responsible for all this power use. So we've got to change. No, I'm supposed to make a very good point and it's a circle economy. I mean, you just take away all the packaging and everything. I think the main takeaways that you like here and you're a fan of it here. And it could have been anyway, well, it could have been ever. No, no, David. Yeah, I was going to make the same point about efficiency of systems. It's something that's almost always missed is how much more efficient a system can be when it's moved from an office into a data center or how much less carbon is used by people doing things like this rather than traveling up to a center or flying abroad to attend an event. And that is all enabled by data centers. But we do have an industry problem that every single conference I go to, it's going so and so is building 100 megawatts, so and so is building 150 megawatts. And it was even on this panel, this when we were talking about earlier, it was 100 megawatts here, 100 megawatts there, which annoys me as well, because no one ever talks about the small data centers, and we we run sort of three, four megawatt facilities, which always get left out of every kind of market analysis. So there is a whole section of the market that no one ever talks about. But I mean, data centers themselves, we have economic incentives to be efficient and to reduce our power consumption. So power is the biggest cost. And that's like one of the reasons why we've gone to highly efficient cooling systems in our data centers. We weren't forced to do it, but we've put in adiabatic systems and cooling towers and got one of our sites running at about one point one seven PUE. The other ones running about one point three, one point two nine. So we already have an economic incentive to to reduce our consumption. But it does sometimes feel a little bit like data centers and consumption reduction is being scapegoated for a underinvestment in grid infrastructure and power generation. And that certainly the feeling I've kind of got at the moment is they don't want to put the long term project planning into building a new grid or a smart grid or a whole load of new nuclear power stations or wind farms. So they're going actually just reduce your consumption. Yeah, in terms of energy crisis. Yeah, to an extent, I think it's more of a natural gas crisis rather than an electricity crisis, particularly acute in the UK, because we're so reliant on natural gas, because we haven't had any wind. And we've switched all of our power over to wind. But I think that that will ease going into next year. I think we're saying about using data centers as an excuse as well. It's a very, very good point and an important point. And we're seeing that sticking to an extreme now in Russia, for example, where they are really looking into taxes and everything and almost shutting hosting businesses down and blaming blackouts on data centers. Anthony. Yeah, I just wanted to talk a bit about technology and technology technological advancement, obviously, with newer data centers, this newer equipment, which is less power hungry, but also as we increase the speeds, the kind of watts per gigabit is decreasing every time we introduce a new technology just to kind of give some some numbers around it. If you look at kind of traditional 10 gig ports, 10 gig ports are in the kind of one watt per gig, one watt for 10 gigs kind of range. And when you go to 100 gigs, you're not times in that by 10, you times it by two or three. And then when you go to 400 gig, you times it by two or three again, not times it by four from 100. So you can kind of have 400 gigs in sub 10 watts versus your 10 gig at one watt. And obviously, as we're using more data and we're using more power overall, but it's kind of some devices are still only going to need small amounts of data. It's a lot of small amounts of data that we're serving. So we are reducing that power consumption, power consumption per gigabit. And that that's going to be critical. And that's only going to get better as we advance to higher speeds. And we move away from electrical switching, moving to optical switching. There's big power savings to be made there. So there's there's things we can do to to reduce that that footprint by reducing our power consumption with technology. And I guess we can even now go into artificial intelligence and bring that in as well. And there would be a whole nother topic. But Tash, let me bring you in as well. For you to show your thoughts with this. Yeah, I mean, I agree with everything that the panelists have said. I do think they were taking into account that data centres have been made out to be what they are with power consumption. But ultimately, you know, there is an aspect of that, which is true. And I think it's it's great that the companies have signed up to the pledge and everything. And obviously, as David said, you know, there's already tracking that needs to be done for economic incentive. But I also feel like PUE is good, but it's just the tip of the iceberg really. And there's more that could be done. The kind of technology software part of it also. I mean, there are other aspects we've looked at other ways of calling natural resources, but looking at the software, looking at the whole supply chain, kind of I think the next step is, you know, it's great that the companies have signed up to the pledge. But but how will we make sure that this happens? You know, what are the next steps? How how do we make sure that that whichever company doesn't just say, OK, we've signed up to, you know, being carbon neutral. How do we how do we do this? It's I think the conversations really need to to move into that. We really get into the fifth year and also start taking action. There's things that we there's things out there that we don't actually need to discuss anymore. There's small things that we can start doing. Across every building, just bring the carbon footprint down. Alex. Yeah, I was just going to say, there are measures in place through the carbon neutral data set pack, you know, there there are actual measures, people have to report that report is a normalised data. But it's absolutely you've got to you can't just say, well, I've signed up to the pact and that's it. You know, take good move on. You've got to actually demonstrate that you really are doing what you're saying you're doing. So I think that's a really good point. I just want to say, David, I spent most of my life talking about small data sensors. So there is someone talking about it. Yeah. I would take ones as well. But I promise I'll do better. But, Joe, you know, when you when you think about it, it's a very young industry, never has an industry been perpetrated on the air that has taken over everybody's life so quickly. You know, in 15 years, it wasn't a smartphone. Let's call it that that that's been the absolute army, you know, the increase in year on year. So words matter, you know, protocols matter. All that other stuff matters. But there is generally an acceptance that data is going nowhere. But how we what we call it is so important. So all of the panelists has individually have just been noting it down, said smart at least once. Yeah. Now, smart is only smart, smart grid, smart thermostat, smart car, smart city, smart anything is only smart because of data. Now, if I ask all policymakers to say, do you know that the decarbonisation of Paris with the smart city initiative by 40 percent is due to data because that's what makes it smart. They say, really? That's the difference. We need to stop using generic words and actually start making them tangible. So smart should be replaced with data. So it should be called data cars or data thermostats, whatever, because that's just being disconnected. The other is we also use because we possibly within the industry don't know enough about it. Also mentioned way too much about social media. So what the perception is, is that social media is what drive in all these big data centers, not the fact that Facebook also runs what is it, two and a half million SME businesses. You know, it's a social media. It's cats running up curtains. So that basically gives people a particular perspective. The other point, which is probably one that we should get behind is a set of numbers, a global set of numbers that people are comfortable talking about, robust and we can talk about because just today I saw from some of the competing geographies within Europe alone, 18 percent are saying of the world's electricity will be used by data centers. That's why you should move to us. So that's just what the media will pick up on. That's what policymakers will pick up on, the biggest one. So while Alex and the boys getting beaten up in they will find that particular term of reference, whereas we need a set and what we've been using. And I think that I think it's robust enough to say because it's in its fourth year is the International Energy Association's numbers. Yeah. And it's extraordinary because it encapsulates all that the other speakers have said. In the past 10 years, we've seen a 12 and a half time increase in transmission of data and a seven and a half times compute for a 3 percent increase in electrical use. Why? Because like what David was saying, there have been thousands of small wiring closets with servers and data centers on premise being consolidated into much more efficient. But we need a set of numbers that can capture all that. And, you know, otherwise, we have to believe that the industry is misunderstood, therefore, easy targets and under attack. So the best thing to do when you're under attack is to get everybody behind a set of plan and the numbers. So when I hear 18 percent from some of the geographies, that's the reason why you should move to us. That's not a good day in the office, because that's what the policy makers, the journalists, not you, of course, because you're a well researched, found, you see, you don't have to pay him, by the way. No, no, check is in the post. But for those that are detracting, they just look for that type of stuff, you know, and that that's that's why the industry lets itself down. But you can't blame geographies because a lot of the geographies are actually inward investment groups. They're not technology companies. OK, Gary, you're probably not going to like me anymore. I'm going to lose some some points with you now. But we are running out of time. We're going to go about one minute. We'll skip all the conversation about politics, European politics. But I just want to ask one question. If there's one thing that you guys want to see done by the end of 2022, if we see it back here in one year's time and you expect something to have been done, what would it be? Very short answers now. So who would like to jump in? Alex, you're a muter, so let's go with you first. Change. I was going to make comment on the other thing, but change the language, change the language. That's that's that's the thing that will help us all. And just a very, very, very quick point just to let you know that the European Data Central Association normally responds to about three to five consultations from the EU per year. In the last 12 months, we've responded to 50. So that shows how much people are looking at us. Amazing. Anthony. Yeah, I think there's going to be continued growth and it's just don't stop it, haven't it? That's what we need. OK, Tash. Yeah, echoing that. And just the education piece. And there's lots of because it's such a growing industry. I think, yeah, there's a lot of people looking at it, but there's also companies getting involved that don't have the experience. So just helping with the education. OK, and David. Yeah, I probably would say education of policymakers as well as the wider industry. Yeah, Tech UK and Emma Fryer struggles with this on almost a daily basis, I think. And yeah, it's just it's so new that they don't understand it, I think. Well, Amy is doing an amazing work and Gary, two words. I can't do it in two words, but I would very much like 80 percent of the market has been driven by four companies in Europe, possibly North America as well. They need to come out to play. They need to be more visible. They can't be hiding behind others. It's just not any more acceptable. You know, we need to see them out fronting up and not just hiding behind policy based people, the engineers, the sustainable people, because those four companies are the origin of 80 plus percent, possibly more. And that's a real challenge and a disappointment in my opinion. OK, I agree with everything everyone said, and I'll probably add in as well to see a bit more diversity in 12 months time. Gender diversity in all other types of diversity will be also very good across the sector, across Europe and the world. But well, thank you so much, guys, for your time for joining us today. And on behalf of the speakers, I would like to thank everyone for tuning in and participating in today's roundtable. Just a quick reminder, our speakers are staying on for the remainder of the lunch hour to answer any of your questions. So meet them back in the networking lounge at the table. And to our viewers, if you're one of the 100 registrants, we hope you enjoyed your lunch. Make sure you visit the JSA.net to register for more coming JSA virtual roundtable, including our next one, where leaders in our industry will talk about lessons, learns and predictions for the new year for telecoms and data sensors. With that, we wrap up today's roundtable. Look out for the playback of the session coming soon on JSA TV and JSA podcast from me and the team at JSA. We wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new year. And we see you back in January and in the meantime, see you back in the networking lounge and happy networking.