 So just to start, it of our speakers will just give a really short introduction for themselves what they are doing and especially how these questions we are dealing with today actually affected their positions today. So we'll start with you Nisha. Sure. Thank you very much and thank you very much for the opportunity to be here. I'm very excited. So my name is Nisha Basiri. I am a partner in Fennelberg. We call ourselves a boutique life form with headquarters in Brussels. We have one office in Singapore right now. And my, yeah, to give you just also a little bit of background where I'm from. So I am a German coiffette lawyer. I grew up mainly in Cologne, but I'm also Iranian by the sense I lived also a couple of years in Tehran. And I do believe that the back and forth between Iran and Germany and then later on in my studies, I studied in Barcelona and also then later on when I did an internship in New York, etc. It helped me and it helped my path through international arbitration because it does, I think, enhance the understanding of different cultures and not only legal cultures. And on the topic of today, I think it's a very important topic. It's not a light topic. It sounds like a light, soft topic, but it's a very important one because it affects everyone of us, not only of you, but of us because now in my own role, I'm hiring a lot. I'm part of the team also recruiting interns or associates and I also at the same time I like to train a lot. So it's very important, I think, for young generation to know very early on already where they see their vision guiding them and their career. And it can be anything and anywhere, but I think for that purpose already this topic of today and the discussions that people have with my very esteemed colleagues here who have all very interesting backgrounds as well and their curriculum speak of themselves is a very well-chosen one, I would say. Thank you. Hello. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me on the panel. I'm delighted to be here as well. So my name is Wadah. I'm an associate at Wacken case at Paris office. I do mostly construction and energy arbitration with a touch of real estate. And I have been a wedding case for about five or six years now. I went to any case directly after doing my LM here at Cambridge. And I must say I'm delighted to be back. It's good to see the faculty and these buildings really spent a lot of time and a lot of late nights. So on this topic, I echo what Nisha just said. It's very important in arbitration. There's just so many conferences out there. It is important to get your name out there. But one of the challenges, and this is something we'll discuss all of us more tonight, is finding the time, especially when we start as a junior associate. There's a lot of work to be done on the cases, on complex cases, taking a lot of hours. So then how do you find the time to go to conferences and get your name out? That's certainly a big challenge, but it is important. And with that. And thank you also from my side for the invitation and it's a pleasure to be here. My name is Sarah Ganz. I'm a council at Wilma Hill in the London office where I specialize in international arbitration. I'm a dual-qualified lawyer and qualified in Germany as well in England and Wales. And in terms of the cases that I'm working on, it's both a common law jurisdiction and civil law jurisdictions and a wide range of industries, energy, oil and gas, technology, pharmaceuticals. I'm also on a member of the executive board of ICDRI and I, which is the young international group of the International Centre for this Viewed Resolution. And I'm also a regional representative of the DIS 40 London, which is the little 40 group of the German arbitration institute. Also made me a bit of background for me. I studied in Germany and France before doing the masters at the other place. And I did an internship at Wilma Hill in London in the international arbitration group as part of my legal training in Germany. And that's how I actually got into international arbitration. How arbitration that were the topics that we're going to discuss tonight, how they were relevant for me, I can say in many respects. I mean, I think it's an extremely interesting topic because the arbitration community, it is growing, but it is still relatively small. So I think, you know, this sort of network or community sense, if you will, is particularly important in that field. Maybe one aspect to mention is I said that I'm an active member of these two organizations and that has been quite important for me because it has meant that I have become, you know, actively involved in the community. And it has helped me to grow my network, both within these institutions of these organizations and also through organizing events and participating in them. But then there are many aspects that we're going to cover and also this discussion tonight. My name is Uzi Chan and I'm delighted to be here with you all. And my thanks also to Marie Claudia for inviting me here. And I'm incredibly humbled to share the floor with the esteemed colleagues. I'm a mid-level associate at Three Crowns where I've been there for two and a half years and I hope that I can share from experience what it's like to be on the more junior end and the kind of thing that you can expect to be doing in the early years of your career. I was born in Hong Kong, but I grew up in New Zealand. I worked there for two years before starting my career at Puppets with Three Build as an intern and then joined my master's in the United States and then becoming a foreign associate again with Puppets with Three Build in New York before moving here to London with Three Crowns. In terms of the theme of this panel, I would emphasize two lessons that have worked for me. The first is the importance of your profile and in particular developing your reputation. And the second is to make the most of the weak links in your social network, so not necessarily the people that you're closest to but friends of friends to help you grow your career. So by way of example, I got into arbitration in New Zealand when I went to arbitration events and Professor Patrick Rogers, I had a fellowship in New Zealand. I spoke with her, she had studied at Yale and then encouraged me to also apply there where I did my master's. Then one time when I was visiting my family in Hong Kong, I decided to look for an arbitration opportunity and I just looked up every five partners and who's who legal and contacted all of them who at the time to speak with me. None of these had arbitration internship at the time, but one of them started internship about a year after I contacted them. And so that's how I started my career in international arbitration and even my job here at Three Crowns. It was through a professor when I was learning my master's who knew one of the partners at Three Crowns that put me in touch. So certainly I feel like my career development in international arbitration has been due to my efforts in building my profile. Thank you all for this introduction and it does show that even if we are from diverse backgrounds, we indeed share some things in this community. But what exactly is this community will see in a bit? Now moving to the first part of our discussion today, we are going to see whether arbitration events are indeed that useful. Philip mentioned that there are a lot of events and indeed there are many, many conferences, many events that one can attend. Choosing between of them is one question. What is their usefulness is another question. And I think that Lizzie can share some experience with that, especially coming to London from a foreign country to work in a particular firm. Lizzie? What example I'd like to share is the Asia arbitration event that I started organising in London 12 and a half years ago. And the point is that you don't always have to wait for opportunities to come to you, but you can create them for yourself. When I first moved to London, I was looking for other people who looked like me who were interested in doing arbitration in Asia. And I started reaching out for an organisation called the Asia Pacific Forum on International Arbitration. And I applied with them, where can I go to find other people who are interested in arbitration in Asia. And then discovered that this group didn't exist. And so I just started the first event, a book to venue, and about 10 to 15 people came to the first one. And just this past week, we looked at our sixth event with over 30 to 40 people attending and we've made a list of over 100. And over our past event, we were now hosted guest such as Joan Fain in QC, who is a Malaysian law barrister. We have hosted roots that were more of public litigation funding. Xi'an Bao was formed here at the HKIC, and each other all had three crown clear in London. And my point is that the way that you can build a profile is partly to take the initiative. This will give you the opportunity to meet other people who share the same niche as you. And to get to know a prominent practitioner in that field. Now moving on to speaking a little bit about move chords. And one of the most famous events, arbitration events directed to a more younger audience is the business that happens every year in Vienna. So, Sarah, would you provide your input on the relevance of move chords in general? What's your experience, whether you think they're useful, how do you do them, then in the past? Yeah, maybe just before I turn to move chords, just one follow up on what Lizzie was saying. I'd like to echo the point that Lizzie was making. I had a similar experience when I, together with two colleagues, set up a group in London of German speaking arbitration practitioners. And it was very similar that we just, well, we actually just did the drinking part. Just to set up a group that meets regularly to exchange experiences. And you see also the people with different backgrounds and some German speaking practitioners that studied in England. And it's just, it's just a good way to get to know people. And this group now actually merged into this, this 40 London group that I mentioned before. So I think it's something to think about, you know, specific interests that you have or specific expertise that you have and see whether there are these groups that either exist already that you would want to join or that you set up yourself. But going now to the actual question about mood court. I have to admit that I didn't participate in the student. When I was studying, I vaguely knew what arbitration was, but I was not really focusing on that. But I have been participating in this mood and humans and other moods as an arbitrator for several years. And I think it's a very useful event for students to participate, but also for young practitioners or practitioners to go to arbitrate. I think for students, it's a good opportunity also to network with other students who are doing it. And of course also to get a sense or feel of what arbitration is. Although I would say it doesn't necessarily resemble exactly what you can do in practice afterwards. But still, you know, you get into it and you see whether that's maybe something that might interest you later on. And also for practitioners that then sit as arbitrators at these events, I think it's, you know, you get to know the teams, you get to know the coaches, other practitioners that sit as arbitrators. So I think it's great and to be honest, it's also always a lot of fun to do that. So I would, you know, I would recommend it. Although as a student, I mean, it is something to think about also in terms of time, you know, going back to what you're saying. I mean, it does require a lot of time to do that as a student and also as a coach. But, you know, if you think you can do that, I would encourage you to participate both as a student and then also later, now which I do. Thank you, Sarah. I think, thank you, Sarah. And by way of example, the mood court, the best is how I did get into arbitration. So participating at the mood is how I came in touch with this world and I really liked it. So I just continued my studies there. And now I'm doing a PhD there. I'm actually coaching the team from the University of Cambridge, not pressure on the team. But we the standard is quite high this year. Thank you very much, Sarah. Now, moving on to some questions. But what are the common mistakes that young people can do when participating in these events and how these can be avoided or should be avoided? You know, as people saying before, there are a lot of events out there, but now I mean there's a growing number. And I think you need to think about how you make use of that opportunity. And maybe three points in terms of mistakes. It sounds a bit dramatic, but one is don't think it's enough to just go to an event. I mean, that's obviously the first step and it's good. But I think to use it in a way that requires a bit of an effort in a positive sense. So, you know, whether that be, you know, asking questions at the conference or, you know, then afterwards trying to get to know new people, not just standing there with a colleague that you anyway see every day. Even if they are very nice colleagues, you know, make that effort a little bit. Second, don't think that you always need to meet the big shots at the event, you know, like the star in the room. That's an advice that someone gave me a while back and I think it's a very useful advice. And it takes away a little bit this awkwardness of going to an event and just always trying to speak to a small person and trying to impress. It is more useful in a way to network with your peers, because these are going to be the people that are going to grow with you through events. And, you know, the fellow student or fellow junior associate one day is going to be a partner or it's going to be working in-house somewhere. And, you know, might give you, you know, it's going to be maybe a future client or someone who is an arbitrator. And I think that, you know, makes it a bit more relaxed and also sometimes a bit more enjoyable because you just basically hang out with your fellow students or associates, rather than hearing this awkward, I'm trying to impress you in the conversation. And that actually leads me to a third point, you know, try to relax as well a bit about these networking idea and events and just enjoy it as well. And not, you know, trying to oversell you constantly. I think it's important to also try to establish real personal relationships. Maybe that's a bit of a tension with the first point that I was making, but, you know, a bit like not, I don't know how to put this, but not put too much focus on this right now to get to know X number of people at an event. Thank you. I'm just following up on one time, just going to events can be pretty daunting. I remember at the beginning, I mean, I come from, I'm originally from Brazil, and I think we're very lucky because if you go to an event in Brazil, I mean, you know, we all know each other. It's very, very difficult that you're going to get there, no one's going to talk to you. So it's basically, you know, a nice gathering of people and friends. But when I was working at the SEC, some years ago, not so long ago, I used to do a lot of events in Europe and it would happen that I would go to this event because I didn't know anyone. And so during the coffee breaks, I would be the person like answering to emails. It would be super busy. Just because I didn't know what to do and I didn't know how to go and talk to people. So nowadays whenever I see someone in that condition, I do try and go and talk to that person because I know that they're not that busy. They're just trying to run away from the, you know, that working side of the coffee break. But anyways, so sorry, I want to say that it's not enough to just go to an event. So how do you affect the network at an event, an opportunity event? Do you really need someone to be there with you at the beginning? Do you need a sponsor? Can you do it by yourself? How do you do it? Thank you. I don't think you need a sponsor and I think you need to certainly go and find an opportunity for Sarah. I also had three points prepared for this. I wanted that it's all about quality and not quantity. There are lots of events that are available. So it's helpful to think about which organizations you're interested in. So for me, I'm interested in Asia. So I was interested in joining the Asia Pacific Forum for International Arbitration. I'm also interested in gender diversity. So I joined Arbital Women and participated in their mentoring program and tried to go along with their event. So it's a opportunity organization. It's also too important to think about the subject matter and what you're interested in. So for example, your niche of international investment law might be interested in FICL, for example. And certainly the event that you go to don't necessarily have to be limited to international arbitration. So for example, I recently participated in an organization called Down China Watches, which is a much larger group of people who are accountable, who are interested in development in China and are more interdisciplinary fashion. And like Sarah said, I would so agree that it's about developing friendships as well instead of just meeting people superficially. And one thing that I find helpful is to take the business path of the people and share my own and then usually I follow up with one or two people after the event and meet them for coffee. My second point is to make the most of the connection that you already have in a way that's kind of like a sponsor. So if you're already part of Cambridge University or any other university or if you're part of a law firm, certainly leverage the opportunity that you can get within that firm and find out about opportunities and going along with other people as well. It's also good to decide for mailing lists and joining Facebook groups to find out about events. And the third point is participation in groups really matter and the more you're invested in a particular group, the more you're likely to get out of it. So one thing that I've done through my work is to assist one of our partners to organize the Echo Congress 2020 in Edinburgh, which is a lot of it is coordinating a various work stream, but it's also given me the opportunity to meet members of the program committee on a more personal level. So that's the third point that I wanted to share with you. Thank you. Thank you, Lizzie. No, Philip said that there are a lot of events. How do you choose these events? And we know that all of you made the right choice, at least one by coming here and coming tomorrow. But Philip and you, sir, how do you choose the event? Who do you target and what are you expecting to get from that? Philip? Yeah, that's a good question because it comes back to the point about the time constraint that we were discussing earlier. There's so many events out there. That has events every month and week. I think young people, you know, industry events and so on, but there's only that much time. So how do you choose? And you know, there's no hard set rules here. But in my case, what works well is I try to have a strategy, you know, to just to focus on a few that you're going to engage with more than just be maybe at the stake would be to be able to disuse and go to some events here and there without engaging fully with them. And in making that strategy, one thing I've been focusing on is just groups that I'm naturally a part of, for instance, I'm Canadian. And there is a big Canadian arbitration community out there. And a lot of Korean practitioners in Europe, and there's a lot of networks. And one of them is called the young Canadian arbitration practitioners, the most original man. But they do throw in a bunch of events out there. Actually, in two weeks, Sarah and I are on a panel that is in part organized in Paris as part of Paris arbitration. Why the YCAP, the Young Canadian arbitration practitioners. So I try to have a good involvement with this organization among their advocacy committee as well. And just to have a bit of a meaningful role on this one. And then keep your mind open, you know, exploit opportunities that come up that you don't necessarily have targeted, but that come knocking. For instance, when I was a very junior associate, a wedding face, one of my bosses was put in charge and he made the editor of the ICC Institute of World Business Law newsletter. And he needed somebody to help him with that newsletter. And it fell on me at the time. It was just more work. But I've been helping him out with that the last six years now. You send the newsletter twice a year and the newsletter work itself is okay. That has opened the door to me to the ICC Institute of World Business Law. And I've been going to the events and the annual conference and meeting a lot of people. This is actually a bit of a senior network. I think I might be the youngest practitioner in the ICC Institute by about, you know, 10 to 15 years. Don't think it's all worked. I'm not the only one. I'm not the only one. There's a few of us. But it is more of a network of senior practitioners. There has been great exposure. And that's an opportunity that came and that I was able to engage with. So that was good. Thank you. Thank you, Flip. Nusa, should you talk in this event and more specifically what I think that most people here, especially the one to get this exposure that we'll see in the next section, how to get into your panel as a speaker? So first of all, I would say it's only a couple of months clicks away for each of you to get or become a member of any and all below 40 organizations. There are really a dozen or more of them out there right now. And that gets you exactly to where Sarah and Lizzie mentioned before to your peers. These are your future colleagues. And there are very often, of course, affiliated to a bigger organization behind it. So I say, yeah, for example, I can see behind it. We have Ika behind it. And for all other institutions that I have, there are more than dozens of them out there. So I suggest you should become a member of that. At least that's what I always tell our people when they start a firm. Because that's not only how you also get to know people when you choose to go to a conference, but you also see the diversity of the topics that are out there. And normally they choose always very novel or pragmatic or timely topics. So you are kept on the ball what's going on in the arbitration community worldwide. Now, once you have chosen them, I would I can agree with what everyone has said on the panel as well. I'm not so sure whether I have been very selective. It's really the topic that I like a lot. And I have to say the ones that I try to go definitely is again from the institutions, ideally at the place of the institution itself. And I say that because there will be a lot more staff from the institution of the ICC, for example, in a Paris event, then it would be somewhere out of Paris because it's next door. And the staff and so the secretariat at the ICC port, for example, there are all very young people as well. And it's good to show your face already at a young stage, a young age. So they can always fall back on you later on. Also, the institutions, they organize mood courts. I think you should definitely try to get to them as well, but we get to that later. How to prepare for them? So once you have chosen an interesting topic of a conference that you want to attend to, then try to get there prepared. Don't go just with an, oh, I'm going to see what they're going to talk about today. Just read up something. It's very easy to read up even one or two short articles on it. Just try to be a little bit prepared. Not only because it makes it easier for you to understand what the speakers would say, but also to verify what they say. And then maybe in the coffee breaks to engage in intelligent conversations, not necessarily with the speakers, but with all the others in the audience. So I think that's something that is important too. And then who to target? Again, yes, your own peers. Please don't make a mistake to go around and do some name dropping that we have like this person or that person or that shot of this rising star, I don't know what. I don't think that comes across very generally, to be honest. And it's a lot more important actually to go to the networking events afterwards, to the cocktails or the drinks, get some people together. Shall we have a quick dinner together? Shall we go to the pub next door? And that's when you really start to glue and that's where the real networking starts and how people remember. There would be a practical exercise for that. Lizzie, now, but how actually to become a speaker and just if you allow me, I will serve the example of how Lizzie actually became a speaker to these panel. A common friend of ours suggested that a friend wants to participate. I heard you're organizing this event. Why don't I bring you in touch? And that's how Lizzie came to this panel. How did you become a speaker in the panel in general? Just to lay down that story, the original friend that I met was back in 2009 with the Summer Legal Research Fellowship at the Australian National University. And then I spent Christmas with that friend. I met his sister. I haven't seen her since. But when she moved to London, my friend said, oh, you should meet with her. And I did. And I realized, I remember that she organized last year's Cambridge Arbitration Day. So then I emailed the students and said, oh, hey, do you know any of the organizers this year? And the friend Alice said, yes, I know Biden. And then it turned out that Biden had asked somebody at my firm to speak and that that person was not available. I was, I was not available. And I was lucky enough to get the call. So the point is that the thing, it is about being lucky, being in the right mood at the right time, but also putting your feelings out there. And some ideas that I can compare with is, I'm still working on getting on the panel and it is quite challenging when you're at the early stage of your career. I think four things can help. One is being an expert on something. So some people have to corruption the International Investment Treaty as their subject and then that becomes something that they talk a lot about and confidentiality. And do you think it's quite difficult and a more junior practitioner to develop your niche because it's so early on in your career? But that's something that certainly my partners have encouraged me to think about in terms of writing an article or speaking that it is a subject that I have thought a lot about and can bring a normal perspective on. Two is to cultivate your connection and make friends with everybody that really doesn't matter whether they're an arbitration or not because our story makes clear. Three is what worked well for me is to make the most opportunities available at my firm through teaching. So one of our partners teaches the LSE Practical 7-Hour International Arbitration and I basically just asked for a long time to get to go and I started off having a long speaking role just observing the class and I went to every class and then the next year the partner said why don't you join the teaching crew? And then from then I was invited to speak at the LSE event. And another example of one of our partners was at Queen Mary University in London and initially he said while we were teaching together he ended up being too busy to teach and so he told me to just apply. So I applied for a position as a tutor at Queen Mary and then through that I met students who invited me to speak on panel. And my fourth idea is to echo what I said earlier with Jim. If you can't apply to an event to speak at then just create your own. Thank you. I just wanted to add on to that as well that so if you go to an event already prepared that also gives you of course the chance to intercept with a question because usually the events nowadays are not expected right now they are more like Q&A sessions as well and so that's the opportunity to show yourself to give yourself exposure and in fact I have one rule in my team that I say you can go to nearly every event you want to go but only if you ask a question and if not money back. Sarah, still in this event theme how do you introduce yourself you go to an event with so many people what is your speech? How do you make people actually remember you? Well I think it really depends completely on the event and on the context and I don't know or online I think it's important to try to establish some connection with the other person so that's what I mean also by context I mean generally I would mention something about my background that I'm German qualified and I work in London something that distinguishes you from other arbitration practitioners but I don't think there's one thing that works but it does make sense to think about that niche a little bit or what sets you apart maybe from other practitioners and then also use that in the introduction Perfect Now moving to the next section and you will all have the opportunity to indeed ask questions at the end just to gather everything out now airing your views in public and promoting your profile in public how does this actually work and I think you so will just start by elaborating shortly on this with Belip, Lizzie and Sarah following and we'll have the floor for some questions just trying to keep everything in time as well on my hat as a moderator and organiser because we'll have the practical exercise of the drinks afterwards never to forget Nusa? Right so I find it very important to start early to publish whatever it is and how short it might be again there are different outlets that you can use to put your thoughts together on a topic that is general I would say I think when you publish for example two arbitration blocks so that's my personal view I think there are two mistakes one can do one is to publish only as a summary of an event because that would limit you self and exposing what you think about a certain topic because it's only so many words you're supposed to use and it's fine I suppose that you have gone to this event but it's actually only a summary of what others have said so rather than that you should I think publish on a topic which is general with a longer conclusion and there are plenty of cases out there that are really interesting on anything investment arbitration, commercial arbitration so I think that's very important and I have to be very careful but I'm everyone as I can say that so if I for example would publish every time only about something that concerns Iran or that concerns Germany or that concerns Belgium where I live actually then I might get immediately into one category and not get out of that anymore so I'll try to be open on a general topic and it doesn't have to be always the same category so it's true that it's very important at some stage to find a need but I'm not so set that you have to publish specifically always on that specific topic or subject matter and in terms of elevating your profile if you want to get into arbitration and internship, bank on what is different with you, what sets you apart from others because it's a lot easier to compete with that smaller other group than the pool of everyone is interested in international arbitration try to think about yourself it's a little bit of searching really try to think about yourself where I'm from, what is different and what may have bothered you actually through all your youth or even your early student life but try to turn that into something positive and say actually now I know because I'm really good at that because I've lived all my life with this difference for example, whatever it is so maybe you hear a little bit that I consider myself as German don't get me wrong but I do not look German Sarah doesn't look very German which looks more German but I just want to say I have done it actually through my youth as well and it has helped me even after my studies during my traineeship in Germany I was called by judges to say you should become a German judge because you would set an example as an Iranian descent to become a German judge and that made me think what is better about this but really it started only then I have to say so this would be for the time being Philippe, we heard what students mostly can do just to get into arbitration but we have a lot of associates coming here and how do you elevate your profile as a young or not so young associate, you are probably in the first category but how do you elevate your profile as an associate, what is that you can do so one way to elevate your profile is to discuss the cases on which you are working when you work hard you meet a lot of clients and work on a lot of interesting issues at work but that is of course a very dangerous thing because the cases you work on correspond to clients who in turn have often gone through arbitration because of the confidential nature so on the one hand you have acquired all this great experience at work, you cross-examined some very or you helped people cross-examined some very important people and they discussed about it you have accomplished some very interesting issues but there are limits to what you can disclose whether it be on your internet site of your firm or even in conversations there are a few things that you have to keep in mind as you try to portray your experience and one of them is are there any requirements in the bar rules for instance in the French Paris bar rule of which I am a member you can't name your clients so you have to keep that in mind and then as I said a minute ago there is the fact that a lot of your clients went through you because they have this dispute to adjudicate or to arbitrate confidentiality so even if you did a great job you can't really talk about it some projects some disputes are so high level and large that even mentioning the country and or industry in which they are can put you in trouble with the clients so you really have to be you really have to be careful out there if you are working on a case that is public that is in the public record that is in public violence there are some cases out there where the hearings have been filmed and even live stream then of course that's fair game but you do have to keep that in mind when you speak at events and update your website thank you Philippe see how what is your take on coming from abroad like almost everyone in this panel I think how do you make your domestic skills your domestic qualification transferable to this market I speak from my experience doing a lot of interviews now for in terms of this may not apply to everybody who has done disputes before but if you have worked in disputes in your domestic jurisdiction and by the time you come to an international market like London it's helpful to think about what you did in your home jurisdiction that is transferable to a role as a junior associate in international arbitration so some things include skills like managing large documents collecting documents from claim managing large document reviews and reviewing documents for responsiveness it includes knowledge about document review platforms and experience with filing many filing the same no matter what the dispute is so site checking doing general article is very helpful to know what to look for for many footnotes properly knowing how to name the bit knowing what to look for when you're looking at defects and exhibit before you file it putting together indices all of these skills are universal to disputes that are very useful for international arbitration another planetary important transferable skill is showing your ability to do research now you don't need to have a perfect substantive knowledge of international arbitration but as an internal junior associate you need to be able to show that you know what are the databases that are available you know what are the relative strengths and weaknesses of different databases and this is a question that we often ask interns to come and tell us why do you get one particular database is better than another one and then finally a legal activity for informants so demonstrating your ability to identify issues to identify the applicable law and apply it to an issue and just speak intelligently about it it doesn't have to be on a specific case it doesn't have to be arbitration but you have to be able to demonstrate cogent legal analysis if I may just jump in on one of the points that Lizzie made which is when I started looking for a position as an associate in international arbitration I had zero experience in international arbitration I had just finished my head on a Cambridge and I didn't do arbitration before I had done internships in litigation back in Montreal so I put in my cover letter that despite the fact that I had no experience in arbitration I thought some of my skills in litigation were transferable a lot of the skills that Liz mentioned but also working with witnesses it's not witness statements, it's affidavits but it's similar and so on but anyways, for the story so I sent this cover letter to a bunch of firms in Paris and one firm which shall remain nameless I had the interview and the first question I had was why should I hire you? You have no skills in international arbitration and then I put that in my cover letter because I knew this question might come, but I do think I have something to bring in litigation background it didn't work for them, but it's quite a case for you and maybe just to add up on that I mean not even just litigation experience but even in other fields I think it might be useful to have some background I don't know in M&A for example or company law but it means that you can't do arbitration on the contrary I think it can be very useful and to be honest sometimes even more useful and if someone has in-depth knowledge of arbitration I think Sarah again, could you please touch upon the issue of the publishing of the article and how this is actually the way to break in or put your views out and how does this actually help? Yeah I think it can be one way to raise your profile I don't think there's one rule how to do this my first publication was my PhD actually which had nothing to do with arbitration and then my first arbitration related publication was actually a Kruber arbitration talk I think that is maybe something to think about a blog or similar format to do as your first publication just because there's maybe a little bit less daunting than doing a whole article on something but it also depends on your background and your preferences are you actually more academically inclined that it's something that interests you than go for an article it does take a lot of time and I would focus more on doing something shorter like a blog and as Muta mentioned there are lots of formats out there blogs or newsletters or whatever that you could contribute and I would also act as something that was said earlier to start early with this to establish myself to voice my views on certain issues I don't see any reason why you can't do that early on as a student you might actually have maybe more time to do that and in terms of the topics my advice would maybe be not to be too ambitious take something small specific one topic that interests you maybe a judgement, maybe something from your jurisdiction I don't see that you don't as Misha said don't just stop reaching out into this one box but something that you're interested in and don't think that you need to solve problems of the illustration world in an article and then take it seriously as well even if it's just a blog or something short that you publish it is something that is going to be published so put some effort into it and get it right and I think you could also use publications to show that you have an interest in certain areas so when you start as an associate you might be working on certain types of cases and it might be that you're actually also interested in something else that you just don't get the chance to work on at the moment and I think an article can be one avenue to explore that and to sort of show the arbitration world that this is something that you're actually interested in and that you have some expertise in thank you thank you for the publications so you touched upon this a little bit you don't have to have a name yet just start publishing it even as a student you could start making our first publications but how should you is there a room as to how it's the best way to go about this should you start by co-offering for example articles with some other people should you already start by yourself or when is the point that you say you can go solo now and do my own solo I think on the point of co-offering one has to be really careful because if you co-author with someone who is really well known that article will always be associated to that really well known person rather than being co-author shipped by you and that person so I don't say straight away don't if that opportunity comes up because it's an amazing opportunity but just manage your own expectations it is different if you would publish or co-author with someone who is like our age range I would say because or you know a young partner but it doesn't have to be a senior partner that's my point so a younger partner or a senior associate counts or something like this because then your name will actually be equal to the other person's name it's a little bit unfair but this is unfortunately how publications go if you have publications by very big names then everyone assumes that anyway the research is done by someone else and it's actually a very nice of that big name to mention you at all things have changed thankfully so at my time that was really not the case but I think the publisher the authors have become a little bit more wary about that and so they are taking their juniors more seriously but when to go solo it's really difficult definitely on the shorter articles that we talk about do them alone so write them along in the box et cetera but also if there is a really interesting modern Euro generation topic take it and take ownership of it technology, digitalization artificial intelligence, blockchain, smart contracts whatever it is you know social media et cetera et cetera so everything that you are actually an expert in because that's a an area that is not very tapped, it's untapped also by others where a longer time around in the arbitration world already or you will see developments as well on arbitration on the outer orbit and space or for example on art it's very interesting as well these are all topics that are really untapped yet so there is a whole world out there but also very very important it does stay, it doesn't go away and one of the things that law firms are looking at first and foremost that they want to hire someone is research skills and drafting skills I'm not sure which one I should give a priority to be honest, I think as a student of course research skills, not sure because at the end of the day it's the drafting that counts, it's the drafting of the written submission, it's a drafting of a procedural order it's a drafting of the of the witness statement or helping the witness to draft that or the expert et cetera so it's the written word that is really really important and once you have you have your topic whether it's co-author or solo, you really have to make an effort that it is extremely well researched and that it is well written as well so that's one of the main things I mean that's why you went to law school to learn that as well and yet if the skill hasn't come out yet but really drafting skills are so important and so I am not that's why I say it depends really on the topic I don't say don't go solo at the beginning no because I have read really amazing well thought through in-depth articles on topics by a very young person but a lot of them are students as well and these are articles that one goes back always to when they want to do when someone wants to look up a certain subject thank you Nisha now moving slightly again back to in the firm or being already an associate are there any touchy subjects that someone who should avoid actually touching that can elevate your profile in public and then Lisa if you can just tip in and elevate actually your profile within the firm yeah I don't think there's any taboo topics that you should avoid out there I think as you go on and publish though one thing you should be mindful of is the fact that whatever opinion you're putting out there will stay, you can't phrase anything from the internet to have your name next to an opinion but then you don't know what your next case is going to be and maybe the position you will have to advocate in the next case is contrary to whatever opinion you put in an article earlier just to give a basic example maybe if you feel strongly about lost profits and international arbitration and you write a very beautiful and convincing article that they should not be awarded strongly about that so in the next case the interest of your client requires that you make a lost profit claim and maybe you're in charge of it so you make the arguments you need of the case and then inevitably what you'll see and I'm sure we've all seen it in this table is the other side will put in your former article as an exhibit to point the contradiction in your legal thinking now if you're before experienced arbitrators they know that these things happen is the fact that the current position you're advocating is contrary to your position on record on an article is that going to make or break the case probably not but it will be embarrassing and you will have to contradict yourself in your legal pleadings so you have to think about that maybe some ways to address that is to make sure when you write articles to air out both sides of whatever argument is meant to be be careful and just ask yourself a question if this became an exhibit in a case where I had to adopt a current position how would I get out of it? We often talk about raising a profile externally but raising a profile internally is very important as well my first thought is think about your internal mind so these would be people both senior to you and who are you in rank it's important to respect everybody but build the quality of your work and your high work attitude is probably the best profile that you can build for yourself and if you work hard within your firm you'll get opportunity within that too the second point is think about opportunities to raise your profile within your firm so at my firm we have firm wide meeting where associates have the opportunity to do a short presentation and this is a good opportunity to make yourself known not just to your colleagues in your office but also colleagues in other offices also take advantage of team meeting particularly with partners it's very helpful to take audition for a particular part of your case when you come prepared to a meeting to offer your ideas my third suggestion is again take audition for a particular part of the case and what you can do as a junior associate is really to get your hands dirty into the trend and say document production it's one of the glamorous part of international arbitration and the most painstaking so nobody wants to go there but if you are willing to be on top of it then you're going to be the main person creating with a client and there are many issues in international arbitration issues of strategy that turn on disclosure of documents and the rule about withholding so this is an opportunity to raise your profile internally with your team but also with a client of your firm in particular my final point is that as a junior associate it's important to be aware of both your billable and your non-fillable commitment so the advice that I've got was always that your billable work should be your priority and then you come back to the question of time that Vic and Sarah talked about is the time you could be spending on doing other things maybe the time that you're doing your non-fillable work when you're writing articles or writing comments on your rule or going to arbitration then but those are my suggestions for approving your profile within your firm I think you just said never underestimate the task that you've given to you to just mention our document review and that's extremely important because if you are the person that knows all the documents in the case you certainly become indispensable the partners need you, the senior associates need you everyone will look after you because you are the person who knows and can find a document quickly in a hearing the documents that are in the case I was mentioning that I'm just back from a hearing on a case that's been going on for 10 years now the amount of documents in this case is just an imaginable and we had at least two people because we had to divide in two there's no documents and so whenever someone mentions a document you need to find a document very quickly bring it to the partner and tell the partner what the point is about if you know the documents you become indispensable so it's not the most gradual of the partners task but never underestimate any task that has been in the year but now moving on to our related topic and as I mentioned we are all from foreign backgrounds on the table and I expected a lot of views as well so for a foreign qualified lawyer starting in the UK and that's a question that goes to Sarah and Lizzie how do you how do you present your profile in the London market and then if Phillip could just you know to bandwidth with what's your view of the Paris market and then we would go straight to Lisa in giving us some tips on how to best present once for five bring an interview for example so when you present yourself maybe starting with for example a pie somewhere I think it's important to keep in mind that your background is not necessarily familiar to the person or to the firm where you're applying so just make sure that you translate a little bit your experience so that it makes sense for the other person for example in Germany you have this legal training where you have two years where you work or charge and that's something that things are not necessarily familiar with when they think about training they think about something different so if you put in your application or your CV you somehow need to explain that and you can use it also to your advantage because it's actually a lot of experience that you've gained that English-qualified lawyers might not necessarily have in the same way so they might think oh this is something you re-qualified but it might actually mean something slightly different than an English-qualified lawyer so just make sure that you help basically the outside understand what your experience is and translate that for them and then I think a lot goes back to what we've been saying before about your niche and your background when you present yourself on the market that people are aware of that that you are an expert in that field that have that background in the jurisdiction I think it's also important to keep contacts with your home jurisdiction as well I mean you are here on a particular market but to keep these contacts home as well and also think about positioning yourself a little bit more broadly that you don't end up in this niche and I mean that in two ways first for example if you are an English-qualified lawyer that you have a transferable skill because it's a civil jurisdiction so actually if you know German law you don't know all civil laws but there are a lot of concepts that are very similar and you can have a conversation with a civil lawyer in a case a lot more easily if you have that background more easily than maybe a common law trained colleague also think there's not really transferring your skills but I think if you are somewhere else I think it's worth considering qualifying in that jurisdiction as well I mean there are pros and cons and it also depends on what your future plans are but I mean I qualified here as well and I did find it useful to have that background as well I mean after all that is the main jurisdiction that I'm now based in and I think it is then useful to have that background especially taking into account Brexit as well well we'll have a panel on that maybe that goes on the topics that one shouldn't I don't know music I just have three points to add about how to make the most up of your master one is to take the opportunity to write I did my L1 paper on third party funding international arbitration and that was a great subject when I was interviewing for associate position two is it's great to do things outside of arbitration one really fun thing I did during my master's was what was called the theory officer project where we did the arbitration it's a very simple dispute at the local department of consumer affairs and I think that was interesting for the interview that I conducted and third really made friends with the people that you do and that you make your master's they're like long friendships and in fact my friend from other languages he doesn't even do arbitration so yeah enjoy your master's just a quick word on Paris the arbitration scene in Paris is very international of course there are some French practitioners of arbitration there's a fair amount of them but there's just a lot of expats Canadians, Australians, Lebanese you name it in Paris so it is not very hard to pipeline as an expat to fit in and my friend for instance we have a very diverse team with a lot of nationalities and then Paris is a jurisdiction where there's a lot of events the ICC is there there's cocktails every week, there's Paris arbitration week early April so really you have no excuse if you don't do the events thank you yeah the question about what can you do how to display your profile before or during an interview I think it's very important that it might be a full-time job in fact to try to find a report with a person you are going to be in contact with at the law firm forget about HR my advice is, sorry about that write directly to the lawyers skip HR because the lawyers they know what cases are going on right now and whether that's an interesting profile maybe we can put that person actually on that case right now where we definitely need someone from that jurisdiction HR would know this and so really I emphasize this again and I have done it myself also successfully to apply directly to the partners of the firm and that's where I come back to the full-time job it means that you have to find the common ground between you and that person that you are going to contact and it might be really very very very remote so you have to do a whole profiling of the person which case the person has worked on and see where do we need I even went so far in my earlier days to maybe emphasize something on my CV that I was sending to that person but de-emphasize it when I was going to send my CV to another person so I'm not going to do anything wrong with my CV, the CV was all the same thing because of what were my tasks during that internship I would emphasize maybe one task and de-emphasize another one depending on who was the address of that CV on that application so try to find this report and then what I do no matter from which university applicants are coming from in this country I always ask for a writing sample, the latest one and I get a lot of surprises I have to admit so also from some very good universities and so don't be intimidated you already had a very good play somewhere but don't get intimidated by peers who are at other universities that you think oh you will never reach that it's a good university we have a great program but it worked as well Sarah you also did the Cologne French the Munich Munich is supposed to be a better university than Cologne but in Germany I mean that's one thing that doesn't really matter that much exactly but the other point is show flexibility sorry no to go back I also asked for writing samples so again we go back to the previous topic start to write but write in a very well I know write in a really good way and because that's something that we will also check then show flexibility and with that I mean in any regard show flexibility because that's what it comes down to once you get into the job if you say no sorry on Tuesdays I always promise my boyfriend to cook and that's why I have to leave at 5 o'clock because I have to do the shopping from the fresh market still doesn't come across very well already if you start as an intern I would say but it sounds a bit harsh but welcome to a real life you know all this from all the late matters that you have here at the university it will continue I told you get maybe at a stage where you can delegate a little bit more but still this will never leave you but if you have the passion for the work that you do anyway with great pleasure then the hands-on experience show that on your CV and with hands-on experience or with a street specialist experience maybe what I mean is that do show that you have worked what Lizzie for example has done already the smaller arbitrations for consumers or even an NGO is whatever kind of experience one of our star arbitration associates I would say she actually worked at an NGO in Cairo for immigration so that means that African immigrants coming to Cairo wanting to go to Europe I mean that's tough that's tough work but it also shows that she is a tough girl and then she went into data protection law and with that experience applied to our firm she's Australian by the way and so but she impressed us so much already that we said sure and she said one thing that I later on talked to her about again she said in her interview you will not be disappointed and I'm like this this is really impressive that you have the guts to say that and I said that to her I said really she said yes so a year later I said do you remember when you told me you will not be disappointed right and just to give you the point that don't be shy be self confident really be self confident in what you have done and you have achieved so much already anyway so you have to I mean it sounds like a prep talk but you really have to really believe in yourself as well otherwise how are you going to convince the other side on the table that you are the right person to hire one thing only as an experience so I after my law studies so after university I had to wait for my traineeship because it was very crowded we had to wait for about three months so I wanted to do an internship and I was completely set on going as Irish always my dream place to go and it actually coincided with the crisis in Argentina so I got a lot of knows from law firms and then an opportunity came up in New York in a law firm where I worked sort of the same I would say on one of the most amazing and interesting cases I have ever worked on and that was on a so-called Holocaust case because we were at that time in a phase where the German government and German industry set up a fund to reimburse former slave laborers in Nazi camps so they needed a German lawyer to understand how this works with German law, administrative law etc I had no clue but I had already a public international law background and that was very important as well and I did then do that internship that internship one and a half years later I happened to get to Wilmer where I did my other internship because Wilmer here was also working on the case and I put that on my again as I said I did the research and the profiling and I put that on my CV also because I was very proud of that experience but that's how I got into arbitration through that report that I tried to find and also through that internship so you never know what brings you to the next step as well and that's the other thing as well don't be afraid if you first go into one direction and then realize no that's actually not what I want to do for the rest of my life I want to do something else Perfect, thank you so for picking up exactly from the point of profiling and making the connections and jumping to the exact next section of our final section of our discussion now a way to do your research and to find these connections nowadays are social media and in the professional relationships linked in for example is one of the prime sources to find information or directly to connect and I will just invite Philip Leasy Sara just to give their experience and give their opinions on how these social media actually help you or not and whether not having such connections or such social media is detrimental or something that holds you back Philip? Yeah, so LinkedIn is not the most exciting social media I think you can all agree on that but I think it is useful most of your fellow practitioners are there so it's a good way to keep tabs on what everybody's doing and where the market is going I use it to post relevant articles and you know just as a way, a minor way but a way to increase your profile and people are seeing what I'm doing one thing that is very helpful for practitioners is that headhunters are very active on LinkedIn, it's scary sometimes you get contacted with people you don't know at all and they have insight about a position here and there but it is useful, I find it useful even if I'm very happy where I am to know it gets you for the market who's hiring, what conditions are offered here and there and that's just something that you could seek out separately but you know it comes to you kind of free without any effort on LinkedIn so that's quite useful I do think it is useful for students as well, if you don't have a LinkedIn profile I recommend you create one and start populating it when I was doing my LLM through an old connection that I hadn't really kept in touch with but that I had on my LinkedIn I received a job offer from a firm in Canada which was a bit out of the blue but that's always nice to receive so once again, limited effort but potential benefits so do use it One of the things I had for LinkedIn was when I was looking for my first job so I worked for an employee who said I'm happy to connect with people that I know, tell me who you want me to connect you to so I went on her LinkedIn profile and looked forward to her connection and that's a really helpful way to identify specific people that you want to have your application for too and as you said, it's quite helpful to contact partners directly and one of the best ways to do that is to get somebody who know your work well and who's willing to vouch for you to then forge applications other people that they know so I'm actually not on LinkedIn but maybe I'll change that after this event and to be honest, there's no particular reason for that information I've put out there but I'm in LinkedIn is perfectly fine and I think nowadays it is very standard and what people do maybe one thing to consider is just to I think it has to complement other things so just to think, oh I have this LinkedIn profile and I haven't ever had any contacts and it's all great I think you have to still have that personal contact with people but if you do then LinkedIn in addition and use it in a smart way then I think it can be useful and it's certainly it is becoming standard and of course when we need information about someone I think doing this also will work actually I have another thought that occurred to me while Sarah was speaking which is I've used LinkedIn a fair bit as exhibits in cases when you want to establish that person X is working for company Y and so on so you do also have to be careful it's been a bit of a theme in my interventions tonight but you know anything you put out there you have to think about what can be made out of it and then another point I wanted to make is that I receive a lot of random LinkedIn connection for people that I don't know sometimes you can tell through the common connections you know that person tries to enter into the international arbitration scene and that's fine but sometimes you have no idea and that is a downside of LinkedIn which is there's just a lot of random on there picking up directly from your first point that leads us to what Nusa will just discuss now on how these connections, what you post out there on LinkedIn or even your like or your congratulation almost the automated messages that LinkedIn has how does this affect from an arbitrator's or a counsel's perspective the real-world case indeed the key motto is use it in a smart way and I second what Philip just said as well you have to be really careful because there are cases out there where I first start from the other one what I see on LinkedIn is sometimes that some partner from a law firm would say we just secured this victory in that case and this is the decision of that court and now I'm proceeding or at the HACA committee at the exit proceeding and then what you see as well and that's where I really get curious 35 likes and maybe four comments I'm like okay what does it mean now you say the part for whatever number I just said I forgot again but so 35 likes each of them they say great well done lawyer Mark Smith that you have won this case but it also means well done that you won against the other law firm and against the other party and the comments congratulations Mary and congratulations Sophie or whoever it's a lawyer they are in charge as well that also has the effect of the reverse that it means bad luck for the other one and I endorse this win so from an arbitrator's perspective now I don't want to be able to parallel it but one could actually spin it further like people actually would do the research then in order to challenge the arbitrator in another case maybe or myself as well to be honest then to see okay so in that case this arbitrator this person has liked that law firm so in the next case where that law firm is also a party or is appointing a party we could maybe make a case of bias towards that party you have to be really careful what happened in the real life as well is that arbitrator sorry that the losing party has tried to set aside an award on the basis of a Facebook connection so Facebook is a little bit different Facebook and my world and I stepped out of it Facebook already back in 2008 so I was there for two years or something and I stepped out of it Facebook is really more personal whereas LinkedIn is supposed to be and that's how they market it and in that specific case there was an award challenge on the basis of the presiding arbitrator being actually made a president of the bar and the party the council sorry of the winning party liked that result supported that person in the campaign becoming the president of the bar and so the losing party said there you go there was already a bias on Facebook first of all they were connected there were friends and second there was already a bias it didn't go through in the end the first award was set aside indeed parallel court said no reminded again to the court of appeal this is not there is no reason given by the court of appeal why it was actually set aside and there are other cases out there for judges as well and actually it's in Germany that one judge has overstepped completely his role I can get to that at the drinks later on but it's just to give you an example of the real threat that's out there unlinked in in terms of traitors as well and then another point is that use it smartly please do not post every day or every second day or even once a week something on LinkedIn because then people don't even look at it anymore because you're posting you're over posting how much do you have to tell anyways thank you very much and although we are slightly behind in the schedule I think that we can open the floor to a couple of questions and then of course all of us will be available at the drinks reception outside for questions or Twitter or ask whatever you want any questions from the floor okay one to you please go ahead thank you thank you thank you this field is very competitive and practiced by only few international law firms I was speaking to one QC he said to me that it is a small mafia so what is your advice for those people who specialized in this area earlier on academically but cannot get into one of the two law firms but still they want to practice in this field so what is your advice for those students should we take the other question as well first of all thank you to all the panelists for the very interesting insight and I was just thinking what something that Maria Claudia said at the beginning what in Brazil everybody within the arbitration community knows each other and it was very different in Europe so my question was what extent can we talk about European arbitration community as opposed to a Paris arbitration community a London arbitration community a process arbitration community and when you for instance work say in Paris office or local arbitration practice how much exposure do you get or should you get to the arbitration world in London or Brussels or Stockholm etc thank you can I just give one practical tip I want to just talk about the number ask a question in the event say your name because we are all here and it's a good opportunity for you to say who you are and for the people to start remembering who you are so yeah I think that's the number one just talk about your name what was that thank you very much Pell for this great great inspiring talk my name is Karen I'm doing my GDL university of law and to elaborate a little bit GDL is a one year law program that is established in the UK so instead of three years you can achieve a bachelor level in one year so my question is related to like future studies because if I got this correctly like all of you at least have an LLM and Nisara got a PhD as well so I'm just wondering to what extent having an LLM has helped you thank you I think we can start answering to stay what about about the first question how can I start with the third one just because it's closer to my mind for me I would say having an LLM was a tremendous benefit I came to Europe as a Canadian you know what distinguishes me I know law and Canadian law but studying language gave me an international touch which then I think opened the doors but so I didn't do my LLM in arbitration and I think now what we're seeing in the field is that a lot more people are specializing in arbitration maybe this ties into the first question as well a lot more people are specializing in arbitration through their studies than they use to and certainly it is an asset to do so I do do recruiting of interns so much but I'm sure you do and I'm sure that when you see intern candidates or associate candidates that know all about arbitration already it's useful but I do think there is still one way to enter the industry which is maybe what I did just coming out coming into it without any arbitration knowledge as an practitioner but maybe that second way is becoming a bit smaller easy what I would add to that is the field of arbitration is becoming more and more competitive and so we see more and more qualified candidates who often have LLMs but it's not crucial but it's definitely very helpful and another point why it's helpful is because it can help equalize the playing field barely or unfairly to understand an academic transcript of universities that you are not familiar with so having an LLF on a reputable university can help like interviewers to better understand your performance relative to other candidates Nusla what about the first question and the if you can use it so what I if I may only the third question I'm the only one who doesn't have a post-grad but I made it as well somehow I speak my way through but and that's because and I have really the highest respect for Sarah that's because in Germany you study until you die there I mean it's I studied for nine years and I was one of the quick ones it's a nine year because I went one year to Spain to Barcelona to study there I had it but I do have to admit coming from Germany I did consider getting PhD and so that's how I started as well I had my PhD already a subject matter but then I started working at the same time said not forget about it and it wasn't England I think it would have been different if I would have started in Germany I probably would have pursued the PhD but because I was working in London I left and so but it's true the specialized LLMs definitely we also look at them it's an add-on I would say and anyways my motto is always should always hire someone who's smarter than I am and even better if that person has the specialty already from the student time then the first question indeed what to do if you're not able to get into the few forms of arbitration bubble that's out there it's really a tough question to answer and I don't have the perfect answer for that but what I would say is that if you're really interested in that you should continue reading up on it to see what's going on and still again also try to publish because you never know what an opportunity comes up in a couple of months or next year or whatever and then in the meantime try to nonetheless get work experience in whichever field it is whether it is arbitration or not I gave you the example of one of our associates and it's really it's really it is a tough market it's true but it shouldn't still make you think that you will never get into it if you're not making it into this field right now you have still time but use this time very wisely and stay in touch with the arbitration community stay in touch with the topics but get work experience now you don't have to become an associate you can also get long term internships nowadays the internships are not only for two months or three months law firms are happy to give six month internships as well try and try and try again and in any event you can always as I said get instilled through another way data protection is now also a big thing right now and if you would be an expert on data protection maybe through data protection you can get into arbitration or there are different issues as well corporate law really different practice areas that are all connected to arbitration because arbitration at the end of the day is only a way of procedure the European sorry a few things on this second question and we can wrap on afterwards on the second question I do think there's a European arbitration community in a sense and I think there are some groups in Paris and London there are some events maybe in Paris for example where you wouldn't necessarily have people coming from other European cities but then you have events where it's a European event so I do think there's a European arbitration community that is distinct maybe from Asian arbitration community or South American arbitration community where people know each other go to events together so if you are in one place I think it makes sense to not just stick to that place but go on your horizon a little bit at least to continent that you are practicing thank you sorry I'll just use this mic and first of all I would like to thank our speakers and I think we should do it in a traditional way