 Hello and welcome back to the run-up. The Nigerian judiciary has gone through various forms of controversies in recent times as a result of some of its judgment that people felt were short of expectations, especially at the Supreme Court level. Well, the question today, as all eyes have turned to the judiciary, is how much faith the Nigerians have in the judiciary? Today on this show, we are discussing post-electroletigation and vital and partial role of the judiciary. Joining us to discuss is I have Barista Justice Uhwebu, human rights lawyer and former vice presidential candidate of the NAC party in 2019. Hello Barista Uhwebu. I'm coming back to you, his audience is back to you, it's my pleasure. It is still morning in Lagos where we are. Barista Ayio Ademilouy is a legal practitioner and he's also joining us, he's in the studio with me. Hello. Good afternoon. Thank you. Alright, we know that discussing any case that's in court is sub-judice and so we'll not discuss the cases but I want us to take a look at the petitions that have been filed just in passing because as I tell you, I have seen a broken English version of one of the petitions. That tells you yes, that tells you how interested Nigerians are in this and indeed not just Nigerians but the international community because this battle has moved to the courts. So help us understand the matter and prayers by the petitioners, Peter Obi and then Abubakar Artikul. Let's start with that of Peter Obi. You help us with that of Peter Obi and then Barista Obi would help us understand the prayers of Artikul Abubakar. Is the player of the year, what's the name? I have had the benefit of reading through the lengthy petition of Mr. Peter Obi to the presidential election petitions tribuna. The major ingredient in that petition is that one, the passing of Bola Mehtinubu is not qualified to even run for the office of the president on the basis of some past alleged criminal involvement. Then two, is the fact that the entire election itself is mad with irregularities. Now by virtue of the electoral hats, a petitioner to the tribuna, in this case the presidential election petition tribuna, may either apply to be so declared the winner of the election or apply for the run. But the major grant for those two prayers, especially the second prayer which is a run is that he or she must establish regularities. So for the purpose of getting an understanding of Mr. Peter Obi's petition, you see that he itemizes and enumerates cases of irregularities and then intends to also call software engineers, IT consultants to also corroborate the evidence to that. And he has also applied directly for a run of the presidential election. If that prayer is granted, it will go down in about a century-old history of Nigeria because the first election, I'm talking about a ballot bus election, was in 1922. 1922? Yes. Oh wow. So you just enter into a century of that. That means in the entire hundred years history of elections in Nigeria, we are going to have a run in the first instance. So that's just my take for now. All right. Barisau Huebu. Do you help us understand the petition filed by the PDP? Well, the truth is that just like my Linux colleagues or my Linux friends say, we have actually have lawyers who have looked at the petitions, which has been the prayers of the petitioners and God who has both PTOB and the article. And the two of them seem to actually be saying the same thing. The only difference there is that PTOB is coming towards while article comes second and in his previous article he's actually asking that the country declare him winner or there should be a run-off. And if there is a run-off, it should be between the first person, the first version and the second position. So the court will look at it politically vis-à-vis the ingredients and the merits of the matter to decide whether they are going to declare Abubaka Attiku the winner based on facts. He has already adjourned in his petition and the evidence and all that. Or to order for a run-off between the first and second. That is between Ahmed Bola-Tinobu and the article. But when you're talking of a run-off, which means you have to start the whole exercise at first and for all of them to contest again. But when you look at the issue politically, you begin to understand that it is only the tribunal now that we look at the whole progressive value of what they have fight and look at whether it has merit to even make an order at this point in time. Because as a lawyer, as a person, it is the wise men that are the tribunal that will look at the whole petition politically. We might be looking at it from a different angle. And you know something about judicial issues or about law. Is that when you're finding your process, you always believe that you have made enough evidence and facts to warrant what you are asking for. Why do you have a person on the line? Remember that Ahmed Bola-Tinobu on his side is also going to find a reply. So look at things very well. But I assure you that it is going to be a very lethargic in the tribunal. All right. So all eyes on the judiciary. You guys, all eyes on your sector. However, there are issues that were thrown up before, during and now after the elections. And some of them were inciting comments. They led to killings, injuries, and electoral injustices. How should the judiciary come in here to sanitize the system? Thank you so much for that question. By virtue of its constitutional rule, that is the rule the constitutional rule of Nigeria-1999 has amended, confers on the judiciary. The judiciary cannot make law. It can only decide upon matters brought before it and then interpret law in that instance. Now we have always argued in this country that there is need for a dismantling of INEC. INEC is an overcumbered organization. It is a commission that is conducting elections. It is the same commission that will be looking for electoral offenders along with that. We have always argued for some of us in the society for electoral offenses commission. Because there are people who are making xenophobic and hate species during the elections. And those people are still working free as I speak today. Now in the same climate, those persons should be behind bars by now. And there should be an enforcement machinery to enforce that. Now one of the major dynamics in the Electoral Act 2022 is that it now makes very clear provisions as to the consequences of electoral crimes. Because there are really electoral crimes. You see a lot of harassment during the election. A lot of intimidation of voters. Suppression of even votes. Then even the physical dismantling of ballot boxes. Despite the introduction of electoral transmission of results, bevers could not work in some places. We all know the briar of IRF and others. So we need an independent National Electoral Offices Commission. We will go after as INEC is conducting the elections. We will be charged solely with the possibility of going after these offenders and bringing them to book. Is there a push to what's having this electoral situation? Thank you so much. Yes. There is a push. I was co-convener of what we call alliance of society for the expansion of electoral and civil space access with our late brother who passed on in Glitter this year. Who are the ones who are calling for the passage of the amendments to the Electoral Act. If you recollect, Muhammad Ubuari retired. The presidents only signed few of those amendments and left many hanging here. One of those amendments left hanging here is the introduction of this Electoral Officers Commission. Even despite the limitation of the legal framework, we still have the Nigerian police force, which by virtue of the police arts is charged with the possibility of going after these offenders. We saw some police officers on duty on the day of election looking the other way on the day of election. The responsibility of police needs to act. Can there be a section of the police specially designated to go after electoral offenders? And even those officers who are looking at scans on the day of election should also be subjected to disciplinary measures within the Nigerian police. So while we are still asking for more, our libertists should also be asking that those who are responsible now should take action. All right. Marisa, wait. Please come in here. How can the judiciary sanitize the system in view of all that we saw playing out before, during and after the elections? With regards to the incitements. Well, the two positions here is that we should not shift it to the judiciary. Because first of all, we all know the primary function and role of the judiciary is to interpret law. Not even to make laws and not to enforce the laws. Now, offenses are offenses, whether they are electoral offenses or not. They are called electoral offenses because these are offenses if we were to do the time of election. I don't see anything different from it. For example, somebody carrying a marchette, carrying a gun, coming to snatch ballot papers, inciting, putting fear on the people. It's a crime itself. In fact, for me, it's terrorism. Because if you look at the division of terrorism, it is anything one do to incite fear to induce the people or the public. It's terrorism. So the problem we have here, if this system is working like the police, we won't be talking about all these things. The police is the people that serve the responsibility of arresting offenders. Now, the police has provided that the police doesn't really like to arrest somebody. When the judiciary commutes, suspecting has committed a crime, about to commit a crime or likely to commit a crime. It is only when the police arrest people and charge them to court that the court does not interpret the laws and mount the proper punishments that is saddled for them. So for me, the problem we have here is that these institutions are not working. It's not about the judiciary here. It's about the institutions. It's about the police. Do you know what it's supposed to do? Offeries is an offence. Whether electoral or not electoral. But the problem, like I said, we have had is that we have not told ourselves the truth. That's what I call lack of centrality or purpose. Because if people have been arrested over years and charged to court and be made to face the law, other people will borrow a leave from there. It will serve a deterrent to other people. But here you see cops doing a lesson after they are arrested. On the same day they are released, is this the problem of the judiciary? Is this the problem of the executive? This is very serious. The police, he has said the police. We have had many people during this election pointing fingers at the police. Let me build a nexus between the police and the judiciary so that we have a better construct. It is true that the Nigerian police force can easily play the excuse that we are overcharged, we have so many responsibilities and others. But as of today, it is the law enforcement agency in the country. And then the welfare of the Iraq and Fai or police officers also come into question. When there are times we blame the Iraq and Fai police officers for a whole lot of things. We saw the video of Iraq and Fai police officers that was already drunk on the election duty. They were not even harmed. Because by virtue of the rhetoric, an armed police officer should be 30 meters away from the voting unit. Now, the purpose of that is to lay fears of intimidation by voters. But that has not been from experience now and we are building on experience. Because the electoral act 2 and 2 was also amended based on the experiences from 1997 and 2. But building on that experience now, we now is clear that for us to achieve better elections, we need armed officers to be on duty. Then the welfare of the Iraq and Fai police officers needs to be upgraded. Because Anul Grima, as he used to say, is a tool in the hands of the devil. And when they are not welfare, they are not well emulated, they will always play an agency role for some politicians. But now, linking it to the role of the judiciary because that's your question really. Now, we have seen also cases in the past where electoral offenders are apprehended and are not brought before the courts. What have been the disposition of our courts to electoral offenses? Now, my brother, my little brother has spoken about offensive offenses, yes. But electoral offense needs to be given a proper classification of its own. And by actually by the courts. And that's why we have said law makers need to hear the courts in that regard. But now, our courts too needs to pay closer attention to cases of electoral offenses and where the there is proof beyond these legal doubts because in criminal proceedings there must be proof beyond these legal doubts and this particular person committed an offense. Our courts should hand down their appropriate sentences so as to serve as deterrence to other electoral offenders. That should now give an inkling of the role, the positive work usually coming. Now, let me give you an example. We have had experiences in Africa, especially in Kenya. If you see first back to your first question, the Kenya Supreme Court obtained the results of a presidential election and delivered judgments in favor of an opponent. Now, if you look at the trajectory of Africa, we have seen types of African leaderships and traditionally always play all from the visual experiences. We have less in the judiciary playing, more or less like a man Friday after this night's dictatorship. So, cases like Kenya comes into play. Can Nigeria's judiciary also stand up and also fulfill the mandate of history? That is the question hanging there. That is a million dollar question. That is the question hanging there. Alright, let's look at the consequences of inciting people. Inciting people, comments that could lead to genocide, comments that could lead to killings as we have seen in this last election. I'll start with you, Barisahu Abo. What are these? Let's educate ourselves in case people do not know, because it does appear that people do not know. We saw some very callous statements made which led to ethnic profiling in the case of these elections. We saw killings. We saw, my goodness, I saw some videos I couldn't even watch. People brutalized in the course of these elections. Explain to us some of the consequences of these actions. Do we actually need to ask for the consequences? We are all Nigerians. We pretend to see if we don't know what is happening, because in who pays the pipe, who pays the tune. Incitement comments that leads to terror, that leads to killing. What is this? Is it not terrorism? Why is it not the caliphacy charge of terrorism today? Is it not the same thing that I use accusers of? My problem in this country is that it's not like Animal Farm which is the major world that is Animal Farm, that all animals are equal but some are more equal than them. We should stop trying to play into the gallery. By now, I felt that some of these people saw them. He's on the air. He's on the back. People are dealing with impunity and walking away that nothing will happen. He's not only here. He's not only in Lagos. Almost all across the nation. It's happening in Europe, it's happening in the East. It's happening everywhere. So the question here is this. Like I go back to the security case. Has the police have the courage, the audacity to exercise their constitutional right or powers by arresting such people and bringing them to vote? Do you know how many people, how many lives that we are lost because of some of these inciting comments all over the nation? What are we saying? So we already know the implications and the dangers it pose to the public. But unfortunately the higher-minded will always say they are own people. So what are we saying? Until we stand out and tell ourselves the truth. You know, if you have plans and you want to say something you say don't you return back to the truth. We must persist and continue in error. So if we are ready to survey or to sanitize this country we must start with us. Nobody is a secret cow. As far as I'm concerned that is the impurity that is keeping us here where we are today. No matter who or if it the security agents must do the least for. We all watch. We are security agents we are at the background. When some of these things have been happened not only in the state it's happened in somewhere in the east, it's happened in somewhere in Cougar and all the rest what has happened has there been any news that someone has been apprehended or arrested up to today. So what are we saying? Is here everything you talk about initially? Is it not only when you apprehend somebody and bring them to court that initially we look into the matter? Is the truth just going to arrest these people? Let's be realistic for once. Let me come in. The first thing the question is what are the consequences? Now we are going to see an upsurge of terrorism. Now if you look at it the actually legal state the anti-Igu xenophobia that's where I put it it's going to have a lot of vibrations. If you look at it before the elections we saw arise first of all you know do our nation agitation in the southwest and then of course we have long standing we have agitation with a co-comitant rural guerrilla warfare. In fact the real reason why we saw some votes for a person like one of the leading pleasure candidates was because of that this is like a peaceful road to an Igbo presidency now what we are saying Legos we are seeing the kind of terrorism we are seeing in the north east in Legos city it is now very very possible because the Bible says you can sow wind and then not expect to reap wind wind then too is that we are also going to see a level of increase in north east banditry because if you look at it the weaponization of ethnic profiling and identity politics that is being employed now it is going to have a lot of fabricating consequences and the road to as he used to say is always paved with good intentions if the incoming presidency is really mindful of national unity if you call media haste to order who are going tweet after tweet after being cautioned by colleagues that this is to say the least to blackmail a whole section of the country upon the order of what which is just a transcending now we are seeing the 1960s recycling back in motion it is a philosopher that said history repeats itself first of all as a tragedy if you go and watch all the event of 1966 and today you see we are living the same time in 1966 before of us saw a coup in January in which that coup was found to be a coup by some media officers but it was not in fact the leader of that coup his name is Kaduna he speaks Ausa modern Igbo in fact the later Shifu Lamdia Zikwe he has been born in Zungeru and speaks Ausa according to Shifu Aulao in his particular books speaks Awuka modern the Kanodonki and he speaks Yoruba also fluently now what we need in this country is that we need to share all forms of ethnic profiling identity politics and all the forces applying those kind of identity politics in this country needs to be apprehended and there are supposed persons brought to Boko you know I'm surprised really that I haven't heard from Al-Hajjilai Muhammad very well who was speaking so gallantly against hate speech I would have thought that by now except if such speeches or reactions or responses from him escaped me I haven't seen anything, have you seen anything? I'm not saying anything I want to use the opportunity to also call the person of Bayononga this live TV with this country cannot be re-roaded into disaster this is a spokesperson of a particular presidential candidate and by all categorization a presidential a president-elect who went on twitter to make an agnophobic comment I am also cautioned by a an adverted F.S.K.Yamu that cautioned by F.S.K.Yamu a second treat to not have an injury a third treat is what caught for now another thing is as you said agnophobic comment why the IBOs because it's not only Labour Party candidate who is an IBO man that is kicking against of this you know kicking against Bola Akme declaration you have Artiku Abubaka who is from the north yet this whole hate speech is centered and attached to the IBOs thank you so much I want to take you across history now as I've told you this is the 1960s rolling back in Mosho you need to understand the social phenomena that the IBOs constitute in this part of the world now by virtue of their very eclectic mobility and enterpreneurial ingenuity they constitute a very a very serious economic force in any part of Africa now if you now look at the events that led up to Biafra you understand that the Biafra question is just a ghost that has not been buried now if you look at it with, essentially with the emergence of IBOB in the last, let's say the last 5 years it also shows you that years of marginalization years of segregation as puts the Biafra question more on the table and the biggest question facing the Nigerian nation today is nothing but the Biafra question and that is why we saw all the energy now driving around the Ibofubia because as I've told you history speaks itself first as a tragedy as I've told you earlier we need to accept the fact that we as Africans share a common identity in fact a linguistics professor have linked the etymology and the root of west of the Ibopupu with the Yoruba people interesting yes, I studied in the University there is a whole book in my library that gave a comparative etymology of the root of west of the Yoruba people and the Ibopupu it's only those who have not read well enough that we don't understand that in the real sense we have a common link now if we now go further to archaeology to demolish the arguments completely and anthropology the oldest Homo sapiens that is our breed and from our account of history both the eastern disperser of that Homo sapiens and western disperser is still within Africa and we are arguably the oldest Homo sapiens so we have a common bond and we have a nation to build we cannot allow identity politicians to rewrite history at this point in time this country is now at the brink and we were rescued from the brink by destroying all these narratives that is meant to take us to Rwanda we cannot at this time go to Uganda Barista Uwebu still taking a look at this ethnic card played by the desperate politicians who I believe tried to use it as a psychological warfare during this election why do you think they have targeted Indy when you also have Abubakar kicking against the outcome of the elections which threw up Bola Akme Tinubu as president-elect Barista Uwebu do we still have you we still have you well the truth is that I believe this is a question of Kainiani Kainiani I believe that question should actually be brought to the people who are perpetuating this because actually you now ask yourself a question what are we actually considering in Nigeria what did the constitution provide for the constitution provides for citizenship or indigestion and it is really really a lesson that people remember they are Yoruba, Aosa or Ibo but after a lesson the road to becomes the same in terms of this I read a categorical statement I said poverty okay Barista Uwebu don't know how to write religion or is not to express it I said in 2015 that poverty don't know how age religion thrives or whatever you can call it and today everybody is affected now when you look at the road to Ibo Ibo Ibo you need to ask yourself a question what are the Ibo's and you can take example if there is a football match that in Nigeria is taking part in the school that everybody becomes the same whether Aosa Ibo or Yoruba it is Nigerian and can I take you back we do football as an example also we do the thing that we want to make that for the first time in Nigeria if you look at it politically because of all your discovery you discover that 95% of them are Ibo's if anybody bother they were interested about bringing the goals if you look at it politically now when it comes to quality or power sharing they remember that this one is an Ibo man this one is Yoruba and this one is Aosa if you look at history when it comes to like my mother said during the time of our fathers that the heroes of this nation they never considered the issue of Yoruba Yoruba or Aosa Ibo Ibo but it is a tune that the social institutions today are using to assess the safety of the citizens and the society they use and that is why you see some of these things happening whether you like it or not God has blessed the region with a particular thing or blessing the Ibo's for one reason of the other and the reason of our economy in this place not only in Nigeria all over the world unfortunately in fact there is a saying that there is a saying that if you go anywhere in the world if it's not an Ibo man you should back up for that so and we have three levels we are all over the country we are all over the nation try to make sure that the country is on if you have been after this election now and they put in this warning and everything goes down well you see that nobody would remember that he is an Ibo man again if you are doing this why would we allow a new Ibo man to buy a land in Lagos and be the skyscraper why would we allow a new Ibo man to buy a land in Samongiri to be the skyscraper why not say go to your place and develop that place we are deceiving ourselves and if you have time we should tell ourselves the truth and say no to these politicians that want to use ethnicity to divide us we should see what we need alright well you've made some very strong comments the ghost of the Biafra you know Ibophobia do you see us moving forward without this being dealt with as it should be and how she did be dealt with as it should be talking about Ibophobia and the ghost of Biafra thank you so much for that question what we are going to be saying so that we quickly print this now that is going to happen is that young and old Ibo people being driven more and more into the arms of armed struggle for Biafra now we are also going to see in the coming period with this cellophobic narrative if it develops this way we are going to see the possibility of a second civil war yes I wrote a pre-election analysis in which I was saying that we can even see possibly armed clashes between northern bandits and guerrillas fighting for Biafra in the east but another in the analysis another new than Lagos a cosmopolitan city will not be the theater for that war what we are not going to be seeing is that we are going to be seeing more terrorist guerrillas fighting for a Biafra nation in Lagos because that is the kind of scary situation they are trying to build they don't understand that they are playing with fire we are hearing about terrorist attacks in Madaguru Madaguru is looking very far Madaguru will soon be in Oshoji will soon be in Insola will soon be in Leki if we continue with this xenophobia now the solution to that because we are also not left with that hope is that this this kind of divisive ethnic jingoism we only even further unite people when it comes to the question of economy and class thank you so much now if you look at this this storm act does not know whether it is a new storm this narrow crisis does not affect all layers of society the Niger labor congress has declared the sit-at-home action from next week those kind of struggles are going to unite people across the color and ethnic background we are going to be seeing more united class struggles in the coming period so it is going to have the dyes they are playing it is going to fall back on them and there is a lot of warning to these pressures who think they can divide us with those things the people should start united in their day-to-day survival struggles the question of how to get cash the question of how to get money how to get food on the table it is going to unite us in the coming period Barisa Huebu social capital is quite critical because these comments which were made have already begun to bond bridges whether we like it or not hatred, bridges are being born how do we create social capital how do we begin to rebuild that sense of oneness as we move forward just like my friend said unfortunately this is where we are today besides I am beginning to see another sub-cruciousness on the region of the universe because I think I am a woman in a very free person who would like to be in a place organize that place and enjoy that place and bring in good things to develop that place but unfortunately with what has happened a new woman will begin to think right now because we never believed that in this that such a thing will be happening so for me I only feel that if you have a responsible government they should at this point in time come out to me that nothing wrong in the government or even the president or whoever that is going to take over to make a public apology to all Nigerians and especially the evils and say that we are sorry under his sorry that it could have been done out of ignorance that we are all one except in this people's sense of belonging this problem will continue to degenerate whether you like it or not no matter how you try to shoot it under the carpet it will keep on rising remember also that children are involved most of our children have seen all these things that is happening and all the ways in France as I said to you I don't know whether you have seen on social media so many Nigerians that live in diaspora that have started openly clearing their Nigerian passports that they do not believe in this country to be in that is as a result of the fallout of what has happened and you may ask yourself in person what is the ordinary election that somebody can only be there for four years at most at least does this call for us to destroy this country in total and we are keeping quiet there are people who engineer all these things and that is why I am talking about the security agents the security of various states they are there the idea of police is there the threat of the SS is there the SS is there make them all the security apparatus and nothing has happened none of these people have called for questions it is literally running Nigerians on what the Romans see that issues are being handled that they will not say yes we believe in this situation if not with what has happened I have to tell you the truth more in Romans especially the ones that go out every day that will take this country see what is going so the bad thing at this point is a public apology especially to the people let us look in that way and let us say well it was done out of ignorance it was never my intention I never instructed anybody to do S. Y. Z. if not my sister, my brother Nigeria Kirakha is sitting on a bed of gunpowder we must all come together and tell ourselves the truth maybe in the national orientation agency to talk to people you ask the question that why is it that Lea Mohammed has not said anything something now about her speech this is what we are doing against her speech and all the rest all the things that happened this way we are not regarded as her speech or what we must be careful and tell ourselves the truth someone has canvassed for the referendum do you share that view the question of referendum I share the view of referendum in the sense that referendum affords us the democratic opportunity to determine whether we want to coexist as a country or otherwise but the reality is that these elections is in itself a referendum on the continuous coexistence of Nigeria and the question that you ask you ask me is that how does it also conduct a referendum don't forget that just less than a year ago one of the biggest question in this country was the question of how do we do our nation have you forgotten there was a time when there was a jingoism that how do we do our nation how do we do our republic why has all those drum beats disappeared they have only disappeared on the basis of the fact that these same ruling elites in this part of the world whip up this jingoism for their own interests and when they have not positioned themselves our capture power they forget and bury those jingoism now we now see them employing the agbophobia narrative we must not fall for it we must not fall for it it is only when we we deal with the 99% in this country because according to the World Bank according to the World Bank only less than 1% of Nigerian population which are the political elites really really take the facts of the common words of this country and don't forget Nigeria is one of the biggest all producing countries in the world it's in trillion dollars trillion dollars is coming out of this country now according to us from international those 5 Nigerians can sell through about 78% of poverty this class is real elites we need to displace in this country we deal with a democratic and egalitarian scenario we can now have a referendum in which we determine that we want to offer independence the Republic of Victoria island do you know that Catalonia the Republic of Catalonia in Spain is smaller than this entire lexicon and it's an independent republic they have the right to self-termination so ultimately what we need to do is we need to deal with is the 1% rural elites and we have a commitment for all over Africa as we speak today South Africa is in a ah ah Kenya is also in a big group person the whole of Africa is on their feet and Nigeria as the second as one of the biggest the biggest black nation needs to also stand up on this piece united against oppression and against education we are about to round up but before we say goodbye do you buy the idea of referendum yes or no and what we need at this point of time alright thank you so much we've been taking a look at post-selections litigation and vital role of the judiciary as we move forward in this country and I've had Barrister Justice human rights lawyer and former vice presidential candidate of the NAC party he ran in 2019 as my guest I also have Barrister and I am a legal practitioner both of you gentlemen thank you so much for your time thank you I am Maureen thank you thanks for watching