 Okay, good morning and welcome everybody. Just started the recording of this lecture. So let's take a moment to pray together and we will get started. Hey, could somebody please eat us in prayer that he will start. All right, Aaron, do you like to pray with us and we'll start. Sure, Pastor, let me pray. Lord, we thank you for this day of learning once again, Lord. Lord, as we learn more, Lord, we depend on you and we trust you completely. So Spirit of God, come and awaken our hearts with your living work. So as I've made all the rest of the glasses into your loving hand, amen. Amen, amen. All right, sorry. Thank you everyone for joining. So this week we have been talking about volunteer management, how to work with volunteers, just some practical things to think about in the church or in any Christian organization because a lot of the work is actually done through the help of the volunteers. So just some practical learnings, things that we can do to make this whole process easy, good, especially when the staff who are part of the church or the Christian organization work with the volunteers, everything should go well. And so we're just talking about different aspects of that. So I'm gonna go ahead and share the PDF on my screen and then we will quickly review, we'll go forward, complete this and then if you have any questions, discussions, ideas, we'll try to keep some time towards the end to engage in that. So just a quick review, we started talking about this on Wednesday volunteers, they offer their time freely, energy and skills, but we need to think through on how to engage with them correctly and meaningfully. Of course we know there are a lot of benefits when volunteers serve in the church or any Christian organization. We are aware of the limitations. They offer only a little bit of the time, they may have other priorities and so on. Now, we started talking about the volunteer teams. We need to have teams for various areas of work or ministry and I just shared a little bit of what happens here at the church and APC, we have different groups or other teams that serve on Sundays. So all of these people, most people in many of these areas are all volunteers, we do have staff who would be engaged in certain areas. Similarly with ministry teams, these people, these teams are involved in ministries which could happen during the week, not just on a Sunday service, but during the week, these kinds of ministries happen and volunteers are also involved there. So we looked at this model, it's a very useful model where we can have staff and the volunteers engage in various areas of ministries and these kinds of teams can be created quickly and easily as and when the need arises. So we started talking also about, we started talking about volunteer recruitment, how do you get people to come in and help volunteer in the church or in the Christian organization? There are different things that we can do and one of the most effective ways I had mentioned was in a personal contact, just call people, ask them personally, most often they would say yes. And of course you can do other things, you can make Sunday announcements, you can have sign up on online sign up, you can have special Sundays where you have special drives, making people aware of all the opportunities that are there. You can have people share testimonies and they also shared how we use the VIP banquet, the special lunch that we have for new people in church. We use that as a time to also inform them about volunteering, serving in church and giving them the opportunity to sign up if they would like to. And of course, once volunteers sign up, very important is to engage with them immediately. If we don't get back to them very quickly, they'll think like, okay, these guys are not interested and they also may lose interest or they may change their minds. So in this process of enlisting volunteers, it's good to be very responsive to them when they show interest, engage them and get them on board as soon as possible. Now, in some, so we'll start from here today, in some areas of ministry, we do have a formal, I would say, some sort of a formal interview or audition or review process. Some areas it's easy, you can work with anyone, but in some areas of ministry, we have this. For example, in worship team, because the skill has to be checked, you want to maintain a certain standard in the worship team. So we have a formal audition process. So we say, okay, you want to volunteer, you want to serve in the worship team, you have to come for the audition, you come prepared and people, there will be people who will test your skills and if you do well and you're up to the mark, then only then you can volunteer. So that is fine, wherever in which your team that is required, we definitely need people who have certain skills before you can do that. In some areas, it's more of a willingness that's needed, you're willing to come. Like example, in a Sunday service, we want to be a greeter other than being friendly and warm and welcoming people. There's nothing much else. So anybody can come up, just show up on time and be a greeter and just greet people as they come to church. There's not much of an interview there that's required, but in other areas, you will have to have. Now, once we have these volunteer teams, one of the things we have done is we've tried to document for various teams, the process involved and what has to be done. So for example, book table, okay, what does the book table have to do? What do we expect? So you try to document that. Some of this is available in the guidelines and we need to write up for all areas, but I think we've been keeping up with some. So you documented, what does each person in the team have to be responsible for? So we need to clearly state the tasks that need to be performed. What's the knowledge and abilities that are required? What are some of the policies and guidelines that need to be followed? And if there's any reporting accountability that's needed. So everything has to be documented. So example, book table, okay, we have volunteers at the book table, we have one person responsible for the book table. If the count of the books go down, that person needs to get in touch with the church office and inform that we need a supply of books so that kind of a reporting has to happen, that stock has to be managed and so on. So all of this has to be documented. And okay, so what are our policies? In our book table, we are only keeping our books. We don't let people just come and put any kind of books. Only our books are there. We don't sell our books, all our books are for free. If anybody wants to make a contribution, it goes as an offering to the church. So these are our policies, these are our guidelines. All these things are documented. So then the volunteers who are serving at the book table know clearly, okay, this is how I run the book table every Sunday. I'm just using that as a very simple example. But like that, for the different teams that you have, it's good to write it down, make it very clear and share it with the people who are going to be volunteering in that area. So all of this is as part of the recruitment. That means you're getting people involved in the volunteers. Another very important part that we have to keep in mind, especially from a local church, our point of view is demographics. And these volunteer teams that we put together are actually a great opportunity to bring people together from different ages backgrounds to volunteer. In many of these volunteer teams, you can actually bring them together. And in some cases, you cannot because of the requirements. If, for example, in the setup team, if you need to be carrying heavy things, in a heavy equipment, you cannot have entirely people do that. Or so there are certain limitations, but in many other teams, it's a great opportunity to bring all these people together. Now, in a church setting, this is very important. Now, one of the things challenges we went through as a church, and I'm trying to think which year was this, but I think it was between 2008 to 2011, that three-year period. What we started noticing was there was a big gap. There were young people, there were the youth, and then there were older people in church. And it seemed like we all came to the same church, but for some reason, there was this big gap. Young people seemed to be in their own world, and the people over 35 plus, they were disconnected from what the youth were doing. And this was becoming a big problem in the church, meaning it was not like causing conflict, but it seemed like you were ministering to two different groups of people in sitting in the same congregation. And it seemed like there were two such services over, you have all the youth go out and do their own thing, and the older people by themselves, and it's like, hey, we're not together here. And so during that time, we had to think, like what can we do to bridge this gap between the generations? And one of the things we did was we started our family Sundays. So this was Sundays. I think it was, I forget what frequency we did it, but these were Sundays where people, I think initially we started off with once a month, people would stay back and we'll do things together. So there would be games that were done together. They would of course, we'll all have lunch together. We'll do games and activities together. And this whole thing was volunteer driven, meaning volunteers will come together. So that means even in organizing the games to participate in the games, we would intentionally bring people across age groups to do these things together. And the whole thought behind that family Sundays was, hey, we need to deal with this issue in the church, the divide that we're seeing. We need to get these generations to begin to work together, understand each other and so on. And so that really helped when we ran those families Sundays over that several years we did it. And there was fun times people used to, it was just fun activities, but people had to do it together. So it kind of helped bridge, get people together. So let it keep thinking about this demographics. Now I'm just shifting over to the second part of this PDF here. Yeah, so you create opportunities for all backgrounds to volunteer. And as you're bringing these people together, people from different age groups, we must understand that people from different backgrounds, especially when you're talking about age categories, age generation, they have their own way of thinking, their own way of looking at life and so on. And so we don't want that to isolate people from each other. We want to bring them together. And so as part of that whole volunteering, bringing the teams together, wherever possible, bring these people and highlight the strengths that they bring. Can say, hey, here are these people who have a lot of experience and they can give input. Of course, the young people have a lot of energy, the young people are very good with technology, the young people are very good with social media, but you've got older people who can see things from a different perspective, so on and so forth. So you gotta let people appreciate, the generations appreciate what each one is bringing and so on. So I think intentionally creating teams where you bring ages together is an important thing, especially in a local church context, because that seems to be a problem that if you're not careful, generations can be divided within the same congregation, but these teams help in addressing that. There's some thoughts here on orientation, getting you volunteers. Some of these things may be common knowledge, but it's good just to go through it in a formal way. You introduce new volunteers to their teams, their team leaders, other team members as soon as possible. And usually we have email groups set up or WhatsApp groups set up for various teams so that there's communication happening. Another important thing is to help volunteers understand organizational culture. So maybe next week, we have a chapter coming up on culture. So we say, okay, hey, this is how we do things here. This is a friendly environment, no competition here. We are working together. We support each other, we encourage each other so that culture has to be passed on to these new volunteers. They should understand that. And some of it needs to be clearly stated during the orientation. And some of it, of course, and everything has to be embodied by the other team members because when newcomers will just follow what the other team members are doing. So if the other team members are working together, they are friendly, they are supportive, they're communicating, that's what they will also start doing. I remember at one time in the church, again, we'll deal with this when we talk about culture, but I began to notice clicks being formed in the church. And this was among people in the volunteers. Okay, if you're part of this volunteer team, you're like a super click, because you're doing something like that. And now it's good to have some sort of team spirit and camaraderie and all of that. But if it goes to the point of, hey, we are an elite group of people in church because we are doing this in church, then that is a no, no, that's not good. And so we had to break that down. Hey, get rid of having this click mentality in church. No, of course we have many different volunteer teams and every volunteer team is important. You know, whether they are greeters or whether they are worship team members, say it all equally special. So you gotta be careful to deal with those kinds of things in the culture and so on, right? And the culture can also impact the experience, volunteer experience. So for instance, if you have a professional coming in to volunteer, but if the way things are done is very unprofessional, like then they're gonna be turned off. Simple example is this. If you say, guys, all of the team, everybody show up at a certain time, right? Now professionally, if you give a time, you expect everybody to be there on time. So, but, you know, so this new person, he comes on time, but he sees, you know, the rest of the team coming in 10 minutes late, 15 minutes late, it's gonna put him off. See, I'm not coming back to this thing. These guys don't keep time. You know, they say this time, they're coming 10 minutes late, 15 minutes late. So what's gonna happen? You're gonna lose the new volunteer. He's not gonna come back. So it's a very simple thing, but that culture of keeping time must be there in everyone. So this time everybody shows up. And then what happens? Everybody's happy and that culture continues. It's reinforced and new volunteers also begin to maintain that same culture, right? So organizational culture is very important. Then team policies and guidelines. So like, okay, this is what we do here. This is things. So we have a general volunteer guidelines that we have documented in this PDF. That's available as a sample. And then you can have a look at it. You can go to our guidelines page that is APCWR2RDSS guidelines and you can download it there. Now in these volunteer guidelines, so what has happened is, especially in the initial years, we used to have feedback from the congregation. A lot of it had to do with the conduct. For instance, I'll give a simple example. A worship team, they're on stage. They're leading worship. They lead for 45 minutes. They get off stage. And then once after that, they are loitering around during the rest of the service, right? They are going, maybe they go out for drinking water or using the washroom, but then they're sitting outside. The sermon is going on. And these are worship team people sitting outside chatting. Oh, that's a no-no. So what happened? So that was one thing. And then when the sermon is over and the pastor says worship team come up, hey, guys are not around. So we had to wait for them all to get back into the auditorium and show up on stage because you're going to sing, you're getting into ministry time. So then we decided we made some policies. We say, hey, worship team members, after you finish worship, come and be seated on the front row, first row, you're all seated there. If you have to go to the restroom, go drink water, whatever, do it. Quickly come back and sit on the first row. And the moment the pastor gives a cue saying worship team come up, within one minute you have to be on stage. Otherwise what had happened was we were getting feedback from the congregation. Congregation saying, hey, those people are leading worship up on stage. Then they're sitting outside not even listening to the sermon. I mean, what are they? Are they special people? What kind of an example is this? What kind of, so congregation was giving feedback based on this. And so we had to address it and that's why we put these guidelines in place. So I'm just giving, so over time we've learned, okay, for different groups, as we see, as we observe, as we get feedback from people, we have to put guidelines and guys, people are watching, be careful. And then a lot of the, at least here in Bangalore, a lot of the feedback was based on the attire of people who are on stage. Sometimes we get feedback on the ushers. So what kind of clothes are they wearing? People are very sensitive. Now we cannot control who wears what, but at least we said some general guidelines. Please, we don't want to affect people's opinion about the church. Just dress modestly when you're up on stage, when you're being an usher, those kinds of things. So we had to put those things down because people giving feedback, they will tell straight away in your face, hey, what's happening? These are volunteers. Now, even though these people are volunteers, we still have to have these policies, these guidelines, because eventually it is impacting the whole congregation. So like this, we have to be attentive, be observant, listen to what the congregation is saying because we are serving them and wherever we need, we update our policies and guidelines. So that's how these things came into being. The next part of course is training volunteers. So some teams are very simple. If you're a greeter, you stand and greet. It's very simple, shake hands or whatever and give a nice smile and say welcome. But some teams do have a lot of training requirements. So the worship teams, the setup team, the media presentation team, and other ministry areas when teams go on mission trips, when teams go on, go to campuses for ministry and so on. So different volunteer teams need to receive training based on whatever they need. So obviously training improves performance quality, keeps people motivated and we can also introduce changes when we have training, we can be excellent in our work. So we understand that. But it has to be thought out, think about what we need to give to our volunteers and keep the training simple and most efficient because volunteers can't come for three days to be trained and they have one hour, they have two hours. So within that one, two hours, you've got to train them. So keep it simple, tailor it to just what is needed. Don't tax them by saying, come for 10 day training and all then no volunteer will show up. We lose the volunteers. So the training has to be very thoughtfully created to make it very efficient because volunteers are giving a few hours and they need to learn what is essential. And then of course we give them opportunities where they can practice what they've learned without being threatened. Like they're afraid without being, afraid that while they're practicing it may have a negative impact. No, let them practice, they'll gain confidence then they can get on in a live environment. Just side notes here on there, you can have a formal lecture training sessions, practical training, group discussions, coaching, and mentoring. And so we do all of this. So for children's church, there's a training that's held every year before the start of the new sessions in June. So one, it's a full day training. Sometimes they make it interesting by having an offsite training to go away to a location and do a training. And so that includes a lot of practical things and so on. So different teams train their people differently. The worship team does special things they have between the course of the year and so on. And then team leaders who are people are leading the team of course will need extra training on how to take care of their team, how to take care for the people and resolve conflicts or report on the status. So give them a little extra. Just a little note here, just information. We keep in mind that people learn differently, some are visual, some auditory, some are practical. So the training that we provide must accommodate people with their different learning types and so on. A few more thoughts here when you're thinking about volunteers. How do we maximize volunteer engagement? That means if you think about this, volunteers come with a lot of enthusiasm in the very beginning. So it's like, I'm gonna do something, gonna help come and say, okay, wonderful, wonderful. Now, we want to maintain that enthusiasm. And help them keep running the race. Now, we don't want them to come with a huge amount of enthusiasm and then fizzle out quickly. We don't want them to be like shooting stars. We just wanna engage them and keep them engaged in those areas of ministries where they came to volunteer. So here are some thoughts on, how do we do that? How do we maximize volunteer engagement in these different areas of ministries? How do we do that? So we need to understand some of the motivators for volunteers, so different people come with different things that motivate them. Some people see it as an opportunity for kingdom work. So they're purely there because, hey, I wanna do something for God. I wanna do something for serving God. So this is an opportunity I can do. So they look at it, an opportunity to serve God. Some people feel very connected to the vision. So that's their motivator. The church has a strong vision. I wanna go on mission trips. I want to serve children. I wanna serve the youth, whatever. They're connected to the vision of that area of ministry. That could be, that's a very strong motivator. Some people, they're driven by a sense of contribution. I wanna contribute if I am able to give something towards the vision, that makes them feel motivated, right? So for them, the contribution aspect, they should be given the opportunity to contribute. Some come because, hey, it's actually a growth and a learning for them. I really like to learn new things. And if I volunteer in the media team, I'm gonna learn how to handle cameras or I'm gonna learn how to handle the software and they enjoy learning new things. So that could be a motivator for them. Some, they like to help in decision-making. They have expertise as leaders and decision-makers and they would like to make a contribution in that sense. And some may even look at it as a potential for paid position. They see like, okay, look, if I do a good job as a volunteer, maybe I can then become a staff in the church. And maybe this may lead to a mention. So these are different motivators for volunteers, right? So our goal is, we need to give them the opportunity. And whatever is motivated, different people have to, we're not saying everybody has the same thing, but we've just tried to list out some of the motivations. So what do we do? Give them the opportunity. Let them contribute meaningfully the way they would like to, right? Or the way they can give them the opportunity to do that, create the opportunity. And some things to keep in mind is to maximize their engagement, don't burn them out. And this has happened especially in our worship team and in our setup team on Sundation. This is kind of almost like I would say, if you're not careful, it just happens over and over again. That a few people are overworked and then they get burnt out and they never come back. They're like, but I'm done with volunteering. I don't want any more of this. So while we understand their motivation, which is genuine, they really want to, we must also make sure we don't burn them out so that we maximize their engagement. They can serve over time. If they need time out, give them time out to relax. They'll be away for a month or two and then come back. So this scheduling rostering is important. Our ultimate goal is, okay, let's maximize their engagement, so on, okay? Now, another important thing of course is the use of software. We will talk a little bit about that now. At APC, as of now, a lot of it is just done on spreadsheets and things like that, but we do have our church management system, which has the potential to manage volunteer teams, but we haven't opened it out yet. But we'll talk about it. We'll mention it later on. A few more things of importance before we close on this. Staff, the relationship between volunteers and staff. Again, this is a very critical area. So we have staff who are full-time with the church or Christian organization. Then you have volunteers and they have to work together. And if they don't, if they're not able to work together, it's gonna break down everything. Nothing will get done. So this volunteer-staff relations is critical. It's highly important for the ministry, either church or Christian organization, that. So staff should understand and volunteers. And at APC, I think for the most part, this has worked out well. Thank God for that. The staff and the volunteers have worked out well. At times we've had to work through certain things, but for the most part, our church staff have a good working relationship with volunteers. We've had some challenges and maybe I will share some learning from that, but most of it has been good. Staff and volunteers should treat each other with trust, respect, and celebrate each other. So this is something, this is again, part of the culture. We will talk about culture later, but as a culture, we should say, hey, there are staff, there are volunteers, treat each other with respect, trust, and celebrate each other. We're not competing with each other. We're not against each other. We have to work as a team in harmony and camaraderie. So that is important. Another important thing into building a good relationship is communication. Perhaps the most important thing, a lot of the breakdown happens when there is no communication or it's not happening properly. Then there's a breakdown between staff and volunteers. So if the volunteers are well informed and can communicate, they feel satisfied with the organization. So the free communication, meaningful transparent between staff and volunteers really keeps people together. But like I said, we've had our set of challenges. So the thing is we need to recognize, hey, something is not going good between volunteers and staff. Things are not working out. Certain ministry areas, things are not working out. Okay, we need to address it. So what are some symptoms? How can you pick up that, look, things are breaking down? Here's just a small list. I'm not saying this is complete, but one is this is very basic. If volunteer staff don't know who's responsible for what, it's going to result in misunderstandings. So that's why in the very beginning, for every team, the roles and responsibilities must be very clear. Okay, this people are doing this. Staff will do this, volunteers should do that. And okay, volunteers are handling the book table, but it is a staff's responsibility to bring the books to the venue. The volunteers can't do it because during the week, they are away. So the volunteer needs to inform the office, office, church office, church office must make sure that some staff will bring the books, the stock of books to the venue, keep it there. Volunteers are not responsible for it. So that, simple example, the roles have to be very clearly stated. But when there is this uncertainty about that, then it's a break, breakdown happens. When you see people being uncooperative, on things that have to be done together, like, hey, they're not really working together. Okay, that means there's a breakdown, it's not happening. Then they're not welcoming each other's ideas and suggestions, that's again a breakdown. When they're having their own separate meetings, volunteers are meeting, having their own meeting staff or having their own meeting. But they're supposed to be part of the same team. Then you know, something is wrong, it's not happening. These two people, I mean, these two groups, they're supposed to be together, but they're having their own meetings separately and deciding things on their own. It's a sign that things are broken down. If there's no, again, it's connected. If they're not sharing information, it's a sign that things are broken down. If they're not communicating directly, but they're going around each other. So anyway, then you know that, hey, things are not working out, working well here. They're not talking with each other, they're going around somewhere, talking to some third person to find out what is happening. Then it's a problem. Then when you listen to them, they're using us in them. Staff is saying they are the cause of the problem. Volunteers are saying staff is not doing their job. So it becomes an us and them battle. When you hear that kind of language, then okay, you know, something is broken down. And then also when they carve out their own territory, you know, so volunteers say staff don't come here, this is, we are doing this. Staff says, don't come here, we are doing this. And you know, they're not working together. So these are just symptoms. When you see these things, you know, something is wrong. Staff and volunteers are not working together. What do you do? Well, you've got to check up. You've got to immediately address the problem. So you get them together, check up, find out what is wrong. What's causing the problem? And you know, how do we resolve it? So there have been times we've had to sit down, you know, call everybody together and say guys, this didn't work out, what went wrong? You know, okay, we have staff, we have volunteers, but at the end of the day, you know, at this event, there was things in workout, what went wrong? So we've had to do those kinds of things. And then we'll find that, you know, the volunteers said the staff was supposed to do it and the staff said volunteers were supposed to do it. And you know, there was a breakdown in communication or, you know, just it was relationship issues, so on. But then we have to resolve those things. So that, because if staff and volunteers don't work together, ministry is not going to happen. People won't, the congregation, people are coming to the event, they're not going to get the benefit. So, you know, as soon as you see some problems do an assessment, check up, find out what is wrong. You know, the simplest thing is to get everybody together in a team meeting, let everybody talk together, clear the air, find out what is wrong and say, okay, you know, this is what we need to do differently to make sure these problems don't happen. But this is a very important part of volunteer management. Last few things, you know, just like we have church staff, performance management for volunteers. We need to evaluate what is happening. We need to give them feedback. We need to bring in some guidance and correction has to happen. So for example, worship team, they would do this immediately after every worship session, worship service. They will get together, they will talk again, what went well or whatever. They have the immediate at the end of the worship service. It's like a feedback, self-evaluation. So they review and they check. Similarly, so we have team leaders responsible for this. Team leaders should take charge of the team, evaluate what's going on, give feedback, make sure standards are being maintained, policies are followed. If there's any correction, bring correction, but that performance management must happen either in formal team meetings or on ad hoc, as and when the meetings needs to happen. And if volunteers are not doing their job, well, same thing happens. We just release them and say, hey, thank you very much, but, you know, if you're not able to fulfill the requirements, it's okay. We release them from being volunteers. Another thing that we do is every year, and we've been doing this for many years now, once a year we have an volunteer appreciation day, where once a year we take time to get all our volunteers together, invite them for a special day. We give lunch, we have lunch together, we make it a fun event, say thank you. And then we try to give them one nice gift that just appreciate them for their work the previous year. So, of course, the last two years we haven't done it, but prior to that, you know, once a year we would just appreciate them, thank them, and give them some gift as a token of saying thank you for serving. So it's a way of appreciating and thanking them. It also motivates people to get involved and be part of it. Now, last couple, two things which is more new, which is one is we can have people volunteer remotely. So, especially during the last two years, what we realized is, hey, people are forced to work from home, they can be a part of the team. And so, you know, right now we actually have people both as consultants and as volunteers, you know, doing things from wherever they are. So, you know, there are certain things that can be done remotely. And so we are doing that. And I think that can be an ongoing thing. People can volunteer remotely from anywhere in the world for certain things that happen in church and ministry. And lastly, when we talk about cross-cultural volunteers, I mean, when people are coming from a different culture, we need to sensitize them to the local culture. So when our mission teams go across into other parts of the country, we usually sensitize them, hey, you know, make sure you dress according to the local culture, make sure you behave certain way, don't do these things. So when they go on mission trips, we want to be sensitive to the culture in which they are going to serve and all of those kinds of things. So that also needs to be taken care of. All right, so this is a quick run-through on volunteer management. I hope I've tried to cover a lot of different thoughts and ideas, but yeah. So we have some time now. We take next six to 10 minutes to share ideas, thoughts, questions, anything on volunteer management. Pastor, a small question. So this regards to volunteer cross-training. So is it good to have cross-training for the volunteers or will it affect? The reason I'm saying, you know, just for an example, you know, people in the worship team or people in the ashring team, so they are very comfortable. Okay, so this is my space, this is my area. And I know, you know, be it other areas or it's not pertinent for me. So, you know, so saying that, you know, from our side, like, you know, from the church side or from the administration side, saying that, hey, let's take a step ahead and know what's happening in the other side, other teams as well. So will it, by making mandatory the cross-training, will it affect the volunteers, Pastor? Just a question. See, here's what I'm thinking. One is it is a positive thing, right? It is very positive, especially, you know, for one team to know, hey, what's going on in the other. But it doesn't have to, I mean, to cross-trade may also mean that they need to have certain skills which they may not have. But what, so I think we can do it in a lesser way, which is just to inform them, you know, rather than say, for example, like, as you said, setup team, worship team. Now, people in setup team may not have the kind of skills that are needed for, or the knowledge that is needed for worship team. So we can't put them there. But what we can do is we can expose them to, you know, what's going on in the other teams, like just maybe, you know, a 30-minute talk or a presentation saying, hey, or just do a lunch together with these two teams and then let somebody from worship team just share, like, hey, these are the things that we do. This is how a person comes prepared to lead worship. You know, during the week we spend, this is how we practice and this is how we prepare our songs and this is how we come. So then the setup team, oh, you know, these guys just don't wake up and roll out of bed and roll into church. They have to, you know, do all this preparation before they show up in church. Yeah, so I better make sure that, you know, I do my job well to support them or the worship team members may share some of the challenges while they're on stage, like if I don't hear the sound, you know, kind of thing. So I think just that kind of interaction, maybe an informal way serves this purpose of getting both teams to see the other side, understand and appreciate each other. And I think that's a good thing. Yeah. Makes sense, Pastor. Thanks. Good question. Yeah, any other thoughts, questions? Yeah, so I think to sum up everything, if we have good, I mean, if we have a very enthusiastic volunteer base and if we engage them well and if we can get really good relationship, really good interactions between staff and volunteers, you know, the whole church or organization will be really good, you know. Everybody enjoys working. The output will be great and ministry will really thrive. But it has to be, what to say, managed well, you know, we have to take care of both sides, the staff and the volunteers. And if things are done very well, it will be a big blessing to the congregation or the organization. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, so next week, we will talk about communications. I think for communication, we'll just do one hour, one lecture. After communications, we're gonna talk about culture. Now culture is very important. So we'll probably spend two lectures on that. Okay. So yeah, that's it. Let's wrap up. Let's close and pray if there are no more questions. Who wants to pray? Samuel. Why don't you pray and we'll discuss please. We can't hear Samuel. Oh, yeah. Check. Hello, Pastor Ken here. Oh, no, we can hear. Go ahead, please. Precious Father, we wanna thank you for this beautiful day that you have blessed us with. Father, we commit to all of us who have come together for this class. Lord, everything that we have learned in regards to Lord and every other aspects, what we especially ask of your grace and mercy, it's Lord, do it in a right way that you would expect out of us, Lord Jesus. Everything that we learn through this class help us to put it into practice and also Lord, as we go through this class, help us to understand and we give you all the glory on our power and grace in Jesus' name you pray, Amen. Amen, amen. All right, everyone, thank you. Have a good afternoon. Enjoy your weekend. God bless you. See you all next week. Bye now. Bye. Thank you, Pastor. Thank you. Thank you, Pastor. Bye now.