 My name is Lasse Mellem. I'm working for the Central Bank of Norway, the Norrjus Bank. I have been here for half a year now, responsible for testing technology when it comes to CWC. I have been here as a consultant for one and a half year before, so I've been here close to two years now. Before I did this project with CWC for the Central Bank, I was with the largest bank in Norway. I was the head of blockchain and distribution technology, responsible for the... For example, responsible for the market pool project, the cross-border and grid finance project based on another DLT technology. I also worked with Ethereum for some time and also worked with another not-novation bank with blockchain and distribution technology. Before that, I have been starting a number of fintech companies and I have sold them one by one. So now I'm employed by the Central Bank. I'm going to go through what we have done so far when it comes to CWC and technology for Norrjus Bank. And then I will also end by telling something about what will happen in the future or plan for the future. And I'm still irritated by the presentation mode there. Okay, first of all, Norway is a small country. We are about 6 million people there up north in Europe. We have 99.7 internet penetrations, so more or less everyone in Norway have internet. Approximately 50 of us also have 5G mobile beta services. Most of us also have a smartphone and we are more or less completely cashless and that's very different from USA or even the rest of Europe. I do not remember last time I used cash in Norway or at 80M. It might be, I don't know, six, seven, eight years ago. I used Visa and Mastercard most of the time. Also Apple Pay and Google Pay is quite popular but most of the innovations are using card. We are quite digitally matured in Norway. All public services like applying for a kindergarten, applying for health, for a hospital, for dentists, this file, your tax paper and so on, everything is on the web now and digital. The reason it is is that we have a digital identity called BankID. It's a company run by old banks that share the cost and so we have completely digital identity infrastructure here. And we do have quite good instant payment. I can pay from myself to my wife or my children account to account in a few seconds. So the payment infrastructure in Norway is quite good. And Norway is not a member of European Union but we are a part of the European Economic Area. So we have the full of the rules and the regulation in European but we are not a partner and we cannot vote when it comes to vote within European Union. So I still pride to get this presentation of the world. Presentation of the world, sorry for this. When it comes to phases, the project started in 2016. Phase one, two and three was analytical work. It was paper work, analysis of the market, what do other central bank do and so on. Phase four, when I come along in December 2001, it started with experimental tests and I will come back to the experimental tests. We ended phase four in July this year and started phase five. Phase five will end December 2, 2025. After December 2025, the central bank will give an advice, a recommendation to the government of Norway and it is the government of Norway that decide whether we should have a CDBC in Norway or not. So in time, I think it will take 26, 27, 28 or something before we have a CDBC in production in Norway if we're gonna have it at all. So this is the decision is up to the government and they will do it after December 2025. When we started the testing last year, we have 17 different characteristics that we have to take in account when we design the testing. For example, it should be claim on the Norwegian bank. It should be one Norwegian crown or should be one Norwegian crown and nothing else. We need something that could be customer oriented and also we need to prevent bank run. So we don't risk that people take too much money out of the bank deposit into our CDBC valid. So there was some 17 kind of characteristics we needed to take in account. And the plan with the testing is that we should test absolute every of this 17. Well, and why do we focus on CDBC in Norway since the payment infrastructure is extremely well here? First of all, resilience. What happened if the bank digital system fails? We need to do something. We need to have a backup. So that's one very important motivation here. I see not using cash. I do not have cash in my wallet. I do not have physical cash at home. And then it comes to resilience if the banking system, digital system breaks and I need to go to the bank and they might be free of cash flow. We need to think into this situation, the backup situation. Also, we think that CDBC might generate better innovation and better competition on the payment market. We have older people in Norway, not many of them. Well, in percentages of three, four, five percent. All the people at nursing home they are not digital matured. And what can they do when we do not have cash and they're not able to use the digital system that we have today? You're also looking at the crypto-assessable coin big tech payment. Is that a threat to the innovation throne and the financial stability? If so, we might need a CDBC to cover up for it. We're also looking at the tokenized of everything, this new business model. Should they use a CDBC innovation throne or is it okay to use a stable coin or a big tech coin or either, for example, a tokenized bank deposits? So we're looking into the whole thing and it's, in summary, that basically the motivation for going into the CDBC in Norway. So I will go into the... No, I'll find it. Sorry, here it is. We're going to the technology. Do we still have a screen, Karen? Yes, it looks great. Thank you. Super, thank you. So we choose Hyperledger Basel. That was a very good choice. We have a proof of authority and a new block every five seconds. We tried to use MetaMask as the wallet, but the security department of the bank said you are not allowed to do it because MetaMask record whatever you do on the computer. So you have to do something else. So we had to build a so-called soft wallet. And then on this soft wallet, if you see on the left-hand side, if you log in as a central bank, you can mint and burn Novation Corona. If you're not logging in as a central bank, then you can send and receive Novation Corona CDBC. Then we decided to use EAC20 token. It's a standard token and this is the same as many other central banks. We also are testing. We use Novation Corona as the name, the nook, and we use four decimal places. And the reason for four decimal places is that we would like to test out Internet of Things and machine-to-machine as well. And there is no transaction fee, no gas fee at all. Then we run our theory, we had a competition. We send out a lot of Novation blockchain-based companies and we choose a FinTech company based in Bergen in Norway. There are three people in Norway, a number of people in the UK, a few people in Singapore and so on. So it's a small FinTech startup but they are extremely good when it comes to Ethereum-based blockchain. So they got the task to build this platform for us, the sandbox. Inside the sandbox, we can issue a mint CDBC, we can send CDBC from a central bank to a private bank, we can receive back from the private bank and we can redeem and burn CDBC within the sandbox. They also built the soft wallet that's on the class screen and they also built a wallet that the private bank can use and they also even built a wallet that customer of the private bank can use. So we cannot build end-to-end sandbox for us. Then... Hello, Lassi. I just want to ask real quick. We've gotten a couple questions from the attendees about which kind of CDBC you're talking about in this example. Is it to consumers, retail or wholesale? Thank you for the question. That is correct. This is retail CDBC. This is for private person, company, person to company, company to company and so forth. This is not wholesale. That was the starting point for us. We had only focused on retail CDBC in the starting. When it comes to phase five, which I will come back to in the end of this presentation, we also focus on wholesale. So we're going to focus on both retail and wholesale CDBC in the future. Okay. Then we asked Nami to build a swap for us. So we had the Norwegian Corona retail CDBC sandbox in ERC-20 token. We built a new sandbox in ERC-1400 token and then we made this swap. So if customer five in this example would like to transfer let's say 100 Norwegian Corona from the ERC-20 to ERC-1400, then it's locked on the ERC-20 side and minted on the ERC-1400 side. And on the ERC-1400 side, it might be metaverse or web tree something. You can circulate on the 1400 side and if someone, anyone on the 1400 side would have the ERC-20 and Norwegian Corona back, the money is burned on the 1400 side and unlocked on the 20 side. So we just test out this swapping thing. And for us, this was very, very important because when we shoved rest of the CDBC team this, then the lawyer said, ah, this is a challenge because is it really a liability on the central bank when we are not control of the ecosystem? What about the law here? And what if something happened on the 1400 side? Is the central bank responsible for something happen outside of the core ecosystem? So this, just testing out this generate a lot of question within the central bank here. And we had a number of people that was engaged for months to consider how to solve this. And again, this is good to be dirty on your hands means that I love the thing comes up. We had a couple of questions come up on that slide, Lassi. Does the bridge or the swap happen on the same network? Sorry. Can you go back to the previous slide? So for the swap or this bridge here that's happening between the two ecosystems, is that happening on the same network? Yeah, it is. Okay. And could you just explain real quick what is the NOK ecosystem and the NOKS ecosystem? The NOK is the sandbox that we have, the original sandbox that we developed. The NOKS is we call this separate. So it's a different ecosystem, different nodes and so on. But it's still inside of the BSU network. Okay. We also tested what we call helicopter money. The central bank doesn't like the name helicopter money. So we call it batch payment. So if someone need to send out a million transactions to a million people, then you have to separate because you get only a few hundred transactions per block. So we needed to test out that as well. So we had a helicopter money functionality also included. And then this is last summer. We decided to put the whole core base of Github. And we did. So it's all, everything is all out there. And that's good. I think the sharing and open sources is very important for us. And it will be very important for us in the future as well. At least as long as we are in test mode. So why did we choose Hyperledger BSU in the first place? We needed to test out 17 characteristics from the report of 2021. One of the reasons is that we thought it was very easy for us to engage consultants to build the sandbox for us and use the case inside of the sandbox. We thought it was like easy, easy for a private bank to also engage consultant to build on their side. We thought it was easy to have hackathon because a lot of people know EVM, Programmable Smart Contractor and the Ethereum technology area. So that was very important for us. We needed a technology that was easy and flexible to test. And that was the reason we choose Ethereum and of course we need a private chain. So we choose Hyperledger BSU. So for us this was a very good choice for an effective experimental test. We will come back to that. We will use Hyperledger BSU for the next two years as well. So we are very satisfied with the EVM and Hyperledger BSU technology for testing. Whether we will use BSU if the government says that we will deploy CDBC in production, I don't know. But for testing this is just perfect for us. Then we needed more help. And last summer we had another RFP and after the summer we choose another Fintech company. It's a small company of two persons in Oslo. We signed with them and they built a number of use cases within the sandbox. The first use case they built was what we called Brutal Fat Potential. So we had a cooperation with Digital Designs that is a national social security government organization. They have a website that you can log in and look at your personal information. If you have a bank ID, the national digital identity thing. So we have a cooperation with them. So you can request a certificate from them and then digitally identify yourself. And then we built an oracle on top of what they have. We had to build it for them and give it to them for free in order to do the test. And then we took the certificate inside of the wallet of the user. And we also think that in the future the bank should do this. We can expect you to know your customer and money-longing thing. So it's a national thing for the future that the bank do this. But for now in the test, everyone can request this certificate. And then we reprogrammed the token or we reprogrammed the smart contract within the token. So if both the sender and the receiver, the payer and the payee have a certificate in order and then the transaction goes through. If one of them do not have the transaction do not go through and it is the money that does this testing not the bank or the client or the customer it's the money because it changed the programming code of this ERC-20 token. And this is a little bit into AML and anti-money-longing and also CTF. So this is a little bit into what's next. So for us, this was very important both testing out and testing and programming together with another government body like the Social Security Registry and the central bank. So this was a very good test and we did this in two months or so. Then the central bank said we might not have interest calculators don't see the VC. Most central bank doesn't. But the central bank management said to us we would like you to test so we know it's possible if it's possible. So we spent quite a lot of time to figure out should we have a new token called interest and then you do every day or week or month or every year something, a calculation and you get this new token. But we ended up with the DEFI AVA model. They calculated interest on their holding every one second or by one second. So if there's, for example, two hours since last time you did a transaction when you have a new transaction the interest is calculated based on every second those two hours times the balance of your balance during those two hours. So this is 100% correct calculation. So we just used the AVA model and it was open source so you could download and do the changes that you need and then include it in the test. So the interest calculation was very good for us and I thought it should be consumed a lot of processing power but it slowed down the transaction by 128 milliseconds. So I mean, not a blink even though to do the calculation. And again, we could do this because we have programmable money but programmable money I mean, the smart contract was changed within the money. Then we needed to do something when it comes down to money laundering and counter terror finance. So we also added that trace and monitor system outside of the... actually within the blockchain but the calculation outside and then we introduced a mechanism called the decentralized Oracle network so that if something... if there's a red flag somewhere then both the sender or the payer and compliance officer need to sign the contract before it goes through to the receiver. So we tried to test out is it possible to stop the transaction before the receiver get it and also we tested out is it possible to size funds that we know and the court order says that this is illegal money is it possible to size it and we tested that as well. And again, we used programmable money because you have to put in the smart contract inside of the ERC-20 token. We also tested anonymous payment of course privacy is very important for us. We started to test zero knowledge proof because everyone says that's the way to do it and we got some problem because we have this change in the smart contract within the ERC-20 token and this zero knowledge proof you kind of destroy something of the functionality within the parameter within the ERC-20 token. So we ended up using something called stealth addresses and that worked just fine. And we tested that everything is anonymous or everything under a certain threshold for example everything less than 500 Norwegian kroner which is about 50 USD everything under that is anonymous, everything over that is traceable. So we tested anonymity also if you have transaction under this $50 but you can only send for example three or five transactions per day or something so we tested a number of variations of anonymous payment. We also tested the cap for example you cannot hold more than 10,000 USD in your wallet and everything about that threshold or that cap will be transferred to bank account automatically. We also spent some time on Hamilton called the Boston Fed and MIT project we had a student working 40% for us for almost a year downloaded the code and we tested it. We also tested and had workshop with a number of stealth product there's a number out there and we tested and had workshop with a few of them and the strategy here is that what will happen if the government say that we need to deploy CWC in production it's very unlikely but it's possible that the central back will build the technology as we don't have resources for it now but that's a possibility very unlikely it's more likely that we buy something from someone and off the shelf it might be something or we can cooperate for example with the European central bank or the bank of England or Canada or someone else so to look into the strategy we also needed to test a number of off the shelf technologies as well then we would like to test the internet of thing you had two houses one house has a solar panel on the roof the other one doesn't so they sell electricity to each other and pay once a second and so it's a very small payment in amount but with large number and to do so we used the iota it's a completely different type of technology it's very like the hedra hashgraph and it works first we need to build a bridge between year C-20 and iota which is a UTX based token and then we tested the iota internet of thing and machine to machine payment infrastructure and we also spent quite a lot of time before summer or last year to be open and tell everyone that asked for it what is it that you do I have been working with CDBC and so we had hackathon in the university in Norway we had hackathon the innovation digitalization agency they are also responsible for the social security number we also had a workshop and hackathon together with the university of Oslo and we had hackathon also with fintech Norway organization organizing the fintech community in Norway so we spent quite a lot of time in calendar one person two months or something over the last year in order just to be open and have speeches, keynote speeches and we blocked hackathons and so on then last summer we was asked if we part of cross-border retail CDBC test and we said yes so we started a project together with the central bank of Israel this was long before the last month problem over there and we also had a deal with the central bank of Sweden and then this innovation hub office in Stockholm there was the project manager central bank was us it was central bank of Sweden and central bank of Israel I will dive into this a little bit deeper now but we needed some more hands to build this for us so we had another RF3 August last year and we choose another Norwegian fintech company called Norwegian Block Exchange NBX crypto exchange in Norway they are very good at blockchain development so we signed with them and now I will spend 2 minutes in this cross-border retail CDBC project we called the icebreaker and the report is out there so if you would like to go in more detail the report is there and there is a video out there as well so this is an example of cross-border payment with central bank digital currency CDBC retail and that is important we had 2 persons here we had first one Emma she lives in Norway she used Norwegian corona and she have a ballot with the CDBC in Norway then we have Benny, he lives in Israel in Israel they will use Shekel he has Shekel CDBC ballot in Israel and then Emma buys services from Benny via the internet every month Benny send them in voice to Emma saying that this is my ballot address and I need 1000 Shekel please pay so then we built a hub and this hub has a connection with hundreds of banks and each of those banks send cross-border currency rate to the hub so when Emma asks please give me the bank that has the best currency rate with Norwegian corona and Israeli Shekel that the hub answer Emma this is the one for example it might be JB Morgan, we call JB Morgan in this case a foreign exchange provider so Emma answered yes I choose JB Morgan and I choose this currency rate JB Morgan has a ballot both in Norwegian corona and Israeli Shekel and can actually do the transaction they also do the cross-border and the currency a risk here the way we do it technically is that money is not paid from Emma to JB Morgan and from JB Morgan to Benny but we lock it so the money is locked from Emma to JB Morgan and then JB Morgan logs the Shekel amount from the Norwegian corona to Benny then Benny shares the secret hashed secret with Emma Emma locks up the transaction and in an atomic or close to atomic it's not completely like atomic but close to atomic transaction then the money from Emma to JB Morgan is locked up and at the same time money from JB Morgan to Benny is locked up so we call it atomic PVP or close to atomic PVP and we use something called hashed time lock contracts and it works fine so Emma to Benny takes less than 2 seconds average when he tested it and he also tested what happened if no one has Norwegian corona to Shekel but someone has to Swedish corona and then Swedish corona to Shekel so it was PVP PVP and we tested that as well and it worked just fine now I'm going to go into what we are going to do in phase 5 the next 2 years from now first of all this summer the central bank issued something called strategy 25 it's on the web so if you go on to Norway's Bank on the web you can see this strategy 25 on page I think it's page 10 or something it says that Norway's Bank will prepare the ground for the issue if appropriate a central bank digital currency and it says also that we need to test candidates solutions so that's basically what we need to do then we have to prepare for it not sure if we are going to use it or not but we need to prepare for it if the government is going to say yes after 10 to 15 and we need to test technology in order to be prepared for what to choose if the government go for it so that's kind of the target for what we are going to do over the next 2 years what we did in phase 4 was that we had legal leg so the legal thing the the change in law the change in regulation and so on was one leg then we had a leg for financial stability how should we make sure that the bank doesn't go that we do not make trouble for bank we need bank in the future as well financial stability, money supply and so on was one leg then we had an experimental test which I was responsible for and then we spent quite a lot of money when it comes to external communication communication with politics, with academia hackathons and so on so that was the way we were organizing phase 4 where we have written most reports the legal report came out it's a staff memo 3 months ago and next week or within a few weeks we will have a report financial stability what we did in experimental test it will be both in Norwegian and English so you might read it and we have what we did in phase 4 in all of those 3 it's a total report we have also internet safety Google Norwegian bank and it is quite good and we think it's quite good internet site or website we launched it a few months ago in phase 5 we will do it a little bit different PD Esprey is another director of the central bank he's responsible for analysis and also devised the report that we are going to send to the government then Morten is more focused on how should this look like end to end consideration why do we need a CTBC who should use it and also in the legal thing when it comes to CTBC and I'm responsible for testing on technology so so we do it a little bit different in phase 5 and we did it up to now my part of the organization we have a central bank we will go on all of the central bank giving the mandate to the project they are steering committee with top management of the central bank then we have project manager and the project manager when it comes to test experimental test ET and I have 2 developers they are quite employed by the central bank they are very experienced software and blockchain developers we have an IT architect 100% focused on CTBC we have a lawyer she's 100% focused on CTBC and we also have a consultant I will come back to consultants in a few slides from now Ben what are you going to do when it comes to sandbox in phase 5 we will keep the hyper leisure based retail CTBC sandbox as it is now we will do a number of changes we will introduce role for example novice central bank can mint and burn private bank cannot mint and burn but they can online and onboard new customer generate addresses and password and so on and then we will keep the self custodial thing keep the P payment within customer or banks then as the top management said you need to focus on wholesale as well and we will use hyper leisure fabric to build a wholesale CTBC sandbox we know that we can use hyper leisure based to both and we know we can use hyper leisure fabric for both but we would like to test both of them because those technologies are so different from each other so in order to learn and mature the organization we have chosen to have retail in BCU and wholesale in fabric but then we also need to combine them for example testing out should we test out what happened with wholesale in fabric and then if a bank for example use retail token as deposit in this so we plan to use factor for this we also will look into the other bridges because we do not think that the future is one technology we will think that the future will be more than one ledger and we need to bridge them one way or another we need to focus on stable coin we need to focus on token as bank deposit in terms of thing machine to machine payment open banking offline payment is very important for us digital inclusion is very important for we have all this for example people that do not have a mobile phone or a computer that need to be able to pay also in the future at least as long as they do not can use cash anymore we have a number of restaurants, a number of bars a number of shops in Norway that do not accept cash anymore and the same if you go on the train or bus the bus does not accept cash anymore so we need some way they can pay not having a mobile phone and a computer so it might be a hardware thing and we have started to look into hyperledger firefly so often we use hyperledger 100% now we are so focused on hyperledger in the future we have a number of things that we would like to test both from phase 4 we did not manage to do so because of the timing and we have a number of new use cases for firefly but we also have a meeting with all banks in Norway and we have a meeting with the tax authority with the social security authority with the authority that pay out unemployment money and tension and we ask them is there anything out there that is a problem and is there anything out there that might be sold by a CWC so we are open for them to give us something to test and use cases as well and we are completely open for them we will definitely spend time on whatever they ask us to test because we are part of the Hapulation Foundation or at least associated member of Hapulation Foundation and we are very glad to do so and we run RFP this summer and the timing for providing the proposal was middle of August this year and we chose Norway and then the one that built the original sandbox for us as one of them is a German company of 1,500 employees or something they will do all the external work for us when it comes to testing in the future so I'm sorry if someone out there is consultant we are not open for consultants we are going to use those two for the next two years so we are looking forward to the collaboration with the private and public organization Norway and the purpose is still to learn, experience I'm not sure our skills fault on our strategy towards end of 2025 so we prepare the ground for the ASU if appropriate our central bank digital currency in the future so I spend almost 40 minutes, 45 minutes now thank you so much thank you Lassie that was a really helpful overview of all the various experiments that you've done we've been really diligent in testing out many different use cases in different ways which I think I'm sure is really informative for the goals that you have for CBDC and I think a lot of people are interested in understanding more about that so please if you have any questions you can post in the chat or in the Q&A box or raise your hand I did actually have someone who during the talk raised their hand so Julian I'm going to ask you to come off of mute and feel free to ask your question hi Lassie thank you very much for the interesting presentation my name is Julian I work for the Swiss digital exchange where we also work on similar kind of projects I was wondering who would maintain and run the nodes of your hyperledger business network in a productive environment would it be only controlled by the central bank of Norway or would you also onboard commercial banks to run the nodes well I think we're going to include the commercial as well when it comes to I've been thinking about this especially since this tokenized bank deposit to come along and if one bank use one technology another one use another technology then we have a problem so it might be better that the central bank run the ledger and responsible for the ledger underneath it is also a question whether the central bank has competences to do so and who would like to do so so it's a balance here but for the testing we also include commercial bank in the testing and on our BSU ledger and we also let them deploy their on smart contract thank you thank you Julian for the question Fadil I'll let you to come off of mute if you'd like a question hello are you listening yes we can hear you ok so thank you guys for the presentation so first of all I'm a student I'm pursuing an IT there's this project which I was working on about the renewable energy in the field of blockchain basically in the blockchain and so the companies that supply energy is prone to errors and prone to some of these it has more disadvantages advantages so we are planning to come up with a startup whereby we are leveraging blockchain in the use of regenerative energy so what I have said about them about them IOT and using IOT and IOT and I think of selling tokens like a more intrigue about that could you kindly elaborate more if possible yeah well when we had this workshop with one of your university in Oslo they were really focused on energy as you asked for her and if we consume a lot of energy because of the blockchain first of all Norway has 100% clean energy we have a waterfall coming from the mountain so it's how do you energy so there are absolutely 100% green energy and the way we do it since it's a private chain we run the nodes at least in the test in the future it might be that each bank run their own nodes but it doesn't consume that much energy the way we do it and we use the consensus mechanism but it's not proof of work it's proof of authority it's a completely different mechanism so we don't see that this can consume much more energy than the bank do today at least Norway are one of the bank that I work for have more had 45,000 servers and they consumes a lot of energy much more than we do with the blockchain compared to what we have today I'm not sure if the energy consumption is quite high and that goes also for the Internet of Things Internet of Things is a very small processor within for example your server and its camera it doesn't consume that much energy alright thank you for the question we had Hector Gonzalez who asked about elaborated on privacy so you did mention something about I think shielded addresses and so he's saying could you elaborate on the privacy in the wallets is it end to end encrypted is the wallet shield does it mean the central bank could see the transaction well it is very important that the center bank cannot see the transaction in the future in phase 4 we could we used block scale so everyone could see everything we do not do that same thing in phase 5 so in the future when it comes to privacy it's very important that the central bank cannot see everything the bank can see the transaction of the customer and the transaction of the bank but one bank cannot see transaction of another bank that is very important and one bank cannot see transaction of customer of another bank so it's more or less similar today and that is what we tested out so we can we can shield or we can make anonymous transaction within this area so for phase 5 anonymous transaction and privacy being compliant with the new European regulation GDPR is very important for us and we are going to test it quite a lot in phase 5 Privacy is definitely a question that we are getting a lot about and a lot of people are trying to figure out how to do that especially with the CBDCs Dino Delaccio has a question so please feel free to ask and come off of mute Thank you very much for the great presentation my name is Dino Delaccio I'm the Chief Information Officer the United Nations Joint Staff Pension Fund in New York I also have used the hyper ledger not specifically the PESU by the INDI for digital identity and proof of existence my background is in auditing assurance and one of the issue that have been grappling with the solution that I personally developed is how to provide assurance and reliability on the blockchain based solution given the relative innovation that they introduce and the fact that they are not yet generally accepted standards for auditing assurance have you consider, have you benchmark if I may use this term your solution against any type of security standard operational standard best practices anything that would be relevant to support the credibility in the solution thank you Thank you for the question what we did in phase 4 is that we didn't focus on security, we didn't focus on cyber security, we didn't even focus on scalability in the we just wanted to test a number of these cases but as you said this is very important we had the IT architect engaged 100% in the C2C project for phase 5 he was in Basel last week BC Innovation Hub had a special workshop for looking at security looking at cyber security looking at for blockchain security so it's a big issue you know and it's very important but we haven't focused on at all so I don't have a good answer to you but they will so if you contact me in a year I can give you a much better answer thank you we understand both well we'll certainly invite you back thank you Dino for the question we have an update after phase 5 so then you can talk more about that then we just have a couple of minutes left I'll invite Mustafa to come off of mute and ask maybe one of our last questions hello this is Mustafa from Stockholm I actually a couple of questions first how about cross chain interoperability if you have plans to expose any standard integration facility I still prefer Ethereum or Polkadot for one reason or another and I want to still work there second thing you talk about evaluating different solutions I thought you already chose Hyperledger PISO as the main network what did you mean by evaluating different solutions thank you we are we have more or less not decided but when we discuss the future we are kind of aligned that the future is not one technology or one ledger this innovation helps have something called unified ledger which is the same technology but different ledger in some technology we don't think that's the future we think the future might be because PISO is open it's much easier for external to build new services on top of it the more open the better it is for innovation but also it generates some challenges we need to control the thing and then we think maybe fabric might be something for the wholesale that we test now maybe for the international thing payment maybe iota is the thing or hashtag so we think the future is more than one ledger one technology in order to cope with that we need to focus on the bridges and interoperability between those technologies so we are going to spend quite a lot of time when it comes to interoperability and bridges in space thank you thank you about the second question you already fixed on using PISO right you are waiting different options still all of this is going to be based on PISO yeah we are going to use both PISO and fabric for either retail and wholesale so that is correct thank you thank you Mustafa i'm going to squeeze in a couple of very quick questions one are you looking into exploring offline payments in future tests sorry we are looking into exploring offline payments yeah offline that is right we have to do so because we have a number of a few hundred thousand older people they need to be able to pay if they cannot pay with cash anymore okay and then what's the time frame for phase five well it will end in December 2005 then we will give the report and the recommendation for the government okay great so I am going to just do a couple share a couple of pieces of information sorry wrong screen thank you Lasti so much for for this presentation we had a lot of time for discussion which was amazing we don't usually get this much time for questions so I'm really glad that we were able to do that and then I'm just going to quickly share my screen and do a couple final announcements here do you see I feel like I'm not pulling up the right slide hold on there we go so thank you so much Lasti for this presentation I think there's a lot more that people want to know about so we'll certainly have you back for anyone still interested in learning more about Hyperledger BASU or CBDC or tokenization we do have a couple of other events coming up that are virtual that you can attend so this one on BASU and the tokenization of real-world assets then we also have another one on the stack for digital assets and asset tokenization from Kaleido the previous one is from one of our other members IO Builders you can find out about all these events on our events page of our website at hyperledger.org use the QR code go straight to that page we also have a hyperledger in action for CBDC's ebook so this is a document that we have published and it summarizes all the examples globally of hyperledger technologies whether it be fabric, BASU cacti, firefly that are being used in the various sandboxes, research pilots and even live implementations for CBDC so it's a really useful resource I encourage you to take a look at it I also encourage everybody here to join our Discord if you want to engage with our open source community learn more about our projects or ask questions when you're looking to use our technologies and run into any issues as well finally as Lassie mentioned earlier Bank of Norway is a member of hyperledger foundation the companies that are implementing CBDCs all around the world if you are interested in joining hyperledger foundation as a corporate member please reach out to us I'm happy to speak with you and share more information about that so thank you everybody for joining us today thank you for watching you will find this link on the events page on our website under our webinars and also on our YouTube so there's many ways to find it we'll share the link in the slides with you as well thank you so much for your engagement and all your questions we appreciate you joining us today thank you