 Vandaskar Desini, who is a long time ICANN member, thank you for taking the time to talk to us. We appreciate that. You have served as a GAC member, a GAC vice chair and vice chair of ALAC. How have your involvements with these various groups shaped your opinion about ICANN as an international organization? Well, that's Brazil. I'm from Brazil, and Brazil has been involved with the internet since John Postel and to get the DOT BR. So, I was in that time, 1999, 1998, and before that, during some time as a national secretary for information technology. And because of that, the DOT BR organization at that time, just a project, was under this secretariat. So what happened is I need to be involved. And beforehand, I sent my director to that. And it happens that my director just asked for, leave the civil servant. I was not civil servant, but he was. And he decided to go for another challenge. And suddenly, I need to go and attend this meeting because no other guys were, you know, with no leg enough to attend that meeting. So I went there. And it was in the beginning of, we started in 1999, but the first one I went to was Los Angeles, 2000. Okay. So, and quickly, it was just a few members in the GAC at that time. Paul Tum was the chair. And we quickly become very active. That's my personality, to be involved and try to do things and so on. So things start to growing. And I start to be involved with that, involved with DOT BR and make things happen in the country, think about how to get more involvement of the people. And finally, I became vice chair. The government changed. I left the government by continuing to represent Brazil till 2004. How important is it that I can be an international organization? I believe that is quite important for the developing countries, because be a more global. Let's make some distinction for the UN situation. Because most of developing countries has been participating in the UN as international meetings around. But this means just government. And the government talking by themselves only, it's like a narrow view of what is going on. And what I can offer for the government at that time is the opportunity to talk in the same issue, to make decisions in the same issue, talking with the other interest people. So not just government officials, but everybody, the private sector is too. Everyone, everyone with interest. So other views, other views. It was quite new, it's still new for the government, but was quite new in that time. Most of the government very close. And I came from business area and that was in the government in that time. So I do believe in the model that Moodstake Holder model. So we built dot BR organization and structure in the Moodstake Holder model. So it was also important for us to copy the model inside the country. For maximum inclusion? For more facility to have other voice, understand one issue that is very active in the country, independent of the government, and to put government inside what is going on with the society. It is difficult for some countries to understand the ICANN model, that it's not government, right? Yes, it's very difficult. Very difficult. And most for the governments that are more, more traditional. That is not open for society or is not the kind of the government that loves to manipulate individuals. Because for countries that wants to manipulate individuals to have their voice but control it, it's good. But if you control, if you don't control, you don't want to. How difficult is it? Governments are used to controlling things. That's what governments do. In the ICANN model, governments have a voice, but they're not the only voice. No, yes. For me that is the beauty sense of ICANN. And I do believe that the UN in the future, it will take some time, but in the future we'll get this model. Because the populations around the world are now be allowed to take voice. And they will never give up from that voice. So with the time, people will push to this model. You're actively involved with the next generation of internet governance leaders. How important is it to these young people who are new to our world? How important is it that this be an international organization? Well, it is quite, quite important. For two things. First, we need continuously refreshing our minds. Because like me, you become addicted to ICANN. And the way things are doing, you get involved and you become addicted. And like all addicted issues, you become narrow and narrow and narrow. So you need to keep in touch all the time with new minds. Be challenged. Be challenged. People question, people bring new ideas, take you up. That is not anymore the issue. That is very, very good. Because you grow up. You learn each meeting. Each meeting is someone that is coming for the first time. You make you a question that you cannot answer. And that is very, very challenging. And it's amazing. That's the thing that makes you addicted. So what you're saying is we can learn as much from their questions as they can learn from our answers. Yes, sometimes, sometimes. They can learn a lot from our experience, of course, because it's not easy to get into these words. It's a close word. How important was the IANA stewardship transition in terms of expanding ICANN's international acceptance? I believe it was fundamental. Fundamental. We had, not from many years ago, a lot of pressure from many governments, from the BRICS, Brazil included, and from the BRICS, from many others that just fallen, and the small counters that just fallen, the region, opinion, and blah, blah, blah. So they believed that it was time to get out from the United States, even if the United States does nothing in the IANA issue. So, but it was very possible for those people around in the government to understand this fact. So I have talked around in Brazil, Latin America, explain how things move. It's just an email they send. It's nothing. But anyway, people had a feeling that they are dependent on the decision of the United States. And during Obama time, this became more, you know, relaxed, relaxed, because he looks like not American. And, you know, people around feel more comfort. Oh, United States is open, it's opening, blah, blah, blah. So things become more, you know, easy to do that. But with the opportunity during the process to Trump, things become more uncomfortable. People are more nervous. Nervous, very nervous about if Trump goes. So we're going to be forever under United States. And these people, we don't know what they are going to do, so better to think in other ways. And we have China thinking about other other Internet and India and Russia. So Brazil starts to move the government so we are more calm down in that situation. But anyway, the idea to get so that this issue is a very fundamental step forward for the internationalization, the globalization of ICANN for now one. What is the greatest risk to the globalization of ICANN? Well, I do believe that the risk is lack of market and lack of knowledge. Because to be global, you need to have a brand that everyone recognizes. So if you don't have a brand that is recognized around and recognized for, you know, old people, new people, no kids around. So that brand, you're going to lose market. Other brands can grow up. So it's the same here. So what is lacking, in my opinion, in ICANN, a more aggressive marketing? Very professional and aggressive. So does marketing equal globalization? Yes, market allows globalization to grow. So if you don't have that market, you know, nobody in the world can stay in the same position or you grow or you go down. So like any business around. So you need to make yourself more recognition, recognized by the population. And I have done this in Latin America area for many years. Many years, this is my 51 meeting in ICANN. Wow. So that is, I have done with the help also of my one colleague from ICANN, local in Brazil, Daniel Fink. We talk around every place we go, every place I go, I have some slides that I use in talk. My students are teaching post-graduation in university. It's not about that. But anyway, in the discussion of policy, I put an example of ICANN and invite them to understand and blah, blah, blah, make papers, everything. So even that, most of the people in my country has no clue about what ICANN means. ICANN is such an unusual model. Yes. With policy coming up from the bottom, instead of a typical organization where rules go down. Someone has a clue. Do people easily understand that? Well, when they have the information, they love it. They love the idea. Some governs, no. But most of the population loves that. Business people, everybody loves the idea to have this construction because they know how the world is becoming. And that's the way Internet allows the model to work. So what happened is, they must use this approach of the model to market as the only one organization that is running successfully in that future model, the model for the future. Sounds like what you're telling me is that the marketing has to increase, to increase the globalization. That's what needs to happen. Anything else? Well, to do that, you need to involve people, engage people, and not only engage people, maintain people, engage it. These are two things not so easy to do. ICANN is doing a pilot now that is quite interesting for the community. This is on board community pilots. And I do believe that I was in this session, this meeting. And I really love that's what is needed because what we have now in ICANN, we have people, each constituent, doing their market itself. And you know, ICANN is not in a professional way, let's say clear, not a professional way. So a bunch of slides or something like that, that most of them, I'm doing by some nerds like me, and it's not for easy understanding. Not only the model, these needs to go to the school for people with 11 years old to understand from where Internet comes from. Simplify what it's about. Make it simple, make it clear, many language surrounds, and make people understand the future is that. We need that for continuing to use your model. That's great. So it's marketing, professional marketing issue. I'm an engineer. But you understand the need. I understand the need because I run many organizations and companies in my country and it's necessary. Vanda Scardazzini, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. Yeah, it was my pleasure. And I do believe that that is a lot of people that is really loved the idea to make this grow really and make this global and then they're stood by most of the people because deserves. Yeah, I understand. Thank you.