 All right. Hi, everybody. My name is Nubra Nelson. I'm the Director of Arts Engagement at Seattle Rep. And I'll give a quick physical description for blind and low vision audience members. I am a light-skinned brown woman with short brown hair, earrings, a brown jacket, and behind me are black and white photos on a white wall. Welcome to Reimagined Theatre, a panel series that brings artists and community leaders together to envision a new theatrical world. I would like to acknowledge that we are on the traditional land of the Coast Salish people, including the Duwamish people past and present here in the city named after Duwamish chief Seattle. We honor with gratitude the land itself and the Duwamish tribe, and this acknowledgement does not take the place of authentic relationships with indigenous communities, but is rather the very first step in honoring the land we're on. And if you'd like to find more resources on how to support the local indigenous communities, please visit our land acknowledgement page on the Seattle Rep website. I really deeply appreciate each and every one of these panelists being here to have this conversation today. Thank you for turning on your videos. We're doing these panels so that we can envision what a future of equity and justice looks like and how the arts and theater should be a part of that and be a consistent part of community voice. And so the leading questions for this discussion and this panel series are, if you could wave a magic wand and build a new theater landscape, what would you create? And what does theater at the heart of public life look like? For those who are in the Zoom room, feel free to comment or ask questions throughout the conversation in the chat and we'll integrate that into our discussion. Now I'm going to pass it to my co-facilitator for this panel, Reagan Jackson, and the rest of the panelists to introduce themselves. Hello, Nabra, should I also describe myself or what you do? Yes, it would be lovely if each person would give a quick physical description as well. Okay, well my name is Reagan, preferred pronoun she and her. I am a caramel-complexed black woman with thick natural hair, wearing a red wrap dress with a black jacket and some fabulous chunky turquoise jewelry as an accent. Yeah, I feel like that's me. And Nabra, thanks for inviting me to be a part of this. I'm stepping into this as someone who accidentally became an arts critic in that I, for the last six or seven years have been a freelance journalist with the Seattle Globalist, South Seattle Emerald, et cetera. And what I was finding is that folks were not covering the events that I wanted to have covered. And so I just started going to events and giving my opinion. And I don't, I'm very interested in hearing from the other panelists like kind of where, like how did you get into this work and where, what is your relationship with art? As you're introducing yourself, if you would like to frame your commentary around when and where you enter into this conversation, I think that'd be really helpful. I'll pass it around. Misha, do you want to start? I'm Misha Berson. I'm a light skinned woman with blondish hair. And boy, so I'm the old grizzled veteran on this and I'm the one who actually wanted to be a theater critic to, you know, to boil it down because it's a long story, of course, like for all of our lives. I started writing, I worked in the theater, trained as an actor, and then I started writing since writing is my first skill in the Bay Area and I became the theater critic for the San Francisco Bay Guardian. I was there for 10 years and then I was lucky enough to get a job to cover for Wayne Johnson, who was in the theater critic for the Seattle Times. So later just, I went over to teach at UW thinking I would stay and then he decided to retire. So I applied for his job and I got it. And there I was for 25 years. So I am active in the American Theater Critics Association. And I have a lot of thoughts after having taught a lot of seminars on criticism and trying to stay in touch with the field about what we need to have good criticism and good journalism in general. The next thing I'll say before we get into it is I think there are two different, there, one shouldn't mistake criticism with, or analysis I should call it really with other kinds of journalism, which are more about simply reporting on the event, letting people know that it's happening, doing profiles, interviewing, you know, Marcy for instance as a master at these things. I had to do some of that too but I really was focused more on actually analyzing the artistic and contextual meaning of the performances. Thank you. Grace. Yeah. Hi, my name is Grace Madigan. I am a light-skinned Asian woman. And I am in my bedroom so there are some clothes behind me and couple coasters. Yeah, so right now I'm the director of the Evergreen, which is a daily newsletter, free daily newsletter that aims to connect Seattle lights to their city and with each other. So all about building community. My background is sort of I guess covering the arts and journalism. I'm a recent University of Washington grad, and I've done a lot of freelancing for different publications. I have a global list. My intern is Seattle Mets. But I definitely, my focus has definitely not been hard news. And so I'm familiar with, you know, some of the arts landscape, mostly music, I would say. I've done some of that for the Evergreen. And so definitely excited to sort of talk about, you know, a lot of the different aspects of the arts in the city. Thank you. Marcy. So I am a light-skinned white woman with curly gray hair. And I, too, Grace, I'm in my bedroom and you don't see clothes. You see my bed behind me. I turned the light on so that you can see the picture on the wall. I recently retired from KOW, Public Radio, Seattle's NPR affiliate after 35 years. I've been a journalist for more than 40 years. I, how did I start? I don't even remember. That was a long time ago. But I have, I'm not a theater critic. I do write criticism, but it's dance criticism. So my main job for most of those years was covering a range of things, but my passion is to write about the arts. I've done a lot of stories about the rap theater, dance. I report locally and also have filed hundreds of stories for national outlets, NPR, and a lot of national dance publications. I'm mostly who I'm writing for now. And after I retired, I realized that there weren't very many arts journalists around. I've done a bunch of mentoring, but there's not many jobs to be had. So I'm launching a podcast later this month with a wonderful person, Vivian Phillips, who's also been around on the art scene. So that comes at the end of this month. They were really super excited and it's going to focus on issues in arts and culture. Thank you. We're excited for that too. Roxanne. Hi, I'm Roxanne Ray. I am a light skinned woman with blonde hair with a black sweater on and behind me is a black sofa and sort of a beige taupe colored wall. My background is in theater, primarily as a writer and a dramaturg. And that's the lens that I continue to take while writing about theater, dance and performance. I came to the international examiner in 2006 wholly by accident through a friend of mine who had written an article for them. She introduced me to the arts editor there and I began writing at first about theater and then slowly expanding to dance, other kinds of performance and then occasionally books about theater and other related arts, whether that's sound design, lighting design, etc. I definitely take the lens of a dramaturg in all that I do, especially looking to build bridges between artists and audiences, or somehow illuminating the creative process for audiences and just really trying to make that connection and encourage readers and audiences to go partake of the art themselves. Thank you. Well said, Roxanne. Disha. Hi, my name is Disha Kudamunchi. She her pronouns. I am currently in a white room. It's very bright, but I'm glad about that. I love the sun. Behind me is leaf, a colored leaf hanging. Yeah, that's the only thing in this room. Yeah, I am a teenager. I believe I'm the youngest one on this panel. I am a part of team ticks. I am a youth writer in their newsroom program. Yeah, my start in arts and criticism and theater was actually very recent only two years ago when I started high school. I went into it very unexpectedly. I found myself in a very dark place coming into high school. And so I just I wanted to try something new I was very academically driven through most of middle school, and I just needed a different outlet to express myself creatively. But before that I really loved writing and just criticism and creative writing in general. And so I kind of just fell into this landscape of theater in my school in my in my school. So yeah, I love to do lighting lighting design and sound design, especially on the tech side of theater. And that's kind of how I found team ticks which is a teens arts organization aimed to uplift youth voices and give more opportunities to youth in general, which is really amazing and I really support everything that they do there. And from team ticks I have published stuff in the Seattle Times and on their blog, which is really great. And yeah, I'm very excited to be here and to discuss the future of what we want to see theater like you like and I'm very excited to hear what you will have to say about this. Thank you it's great to have you here we love team ticks. Leah. Hi folks, I'm Leah Baltic. I am a medium skins woman with long dark curly hair. And behind me is a really blown out window which has plans on that you can barely see, as well as a rad print by electric caution. And as far as how I got into this work. You know it was really kind of on an art and journalism tip from my youth. I went through college and I sort of bobbed and weaved a bit in my early career. Kind of doing the Hollywood thing for a little bit in my early 20s and then wound up in Seattle where I started as mean, and that mean was covering all sorts of things but had a definite like art and culture bent and it wound up getting distributed to me and then having made not a cent from it I did shut that down as tired and eventually a kind of communications practice with a writing practice and an ongoing love of the arts and many different disciplines led me to city arts magazine where I was editor in chief for just shy of eight years before it closed at the end of 2018. And I, you know, remain engaged in this space I'm not actively working as a journalist I'm doing a bunch of independent kind of stuff, teaching at UW communication leadership master's program, writing a book, some of which touches on some of these things. Doing a bunch of work for arts clients in town and that kind of thing. Thank you. It's so great to have you here. Thank you all so much. I'll pass it back to Reagan Mike absolutely. Thank you Nabra, and thank you panelists. I'm curious like what has been what has been the most innovative arts coverage that you've experienced and what for you is like the marker of good criticism for a good conversation. Okay. Well I'll throw out some of my thoughts and and you know some of them wouldn't have been controversial a few years ago probably are now. By the way, I also work with team ticks I've done some mentoring there and I teach at UW to and still do some writing for crosscut.com. In terms of journalism. I think that any coverage, any intelligent, you know, well sourced coverage of the local arts scene is really important right now, because we don't have much of an art staff. When I started at the Seattle Times in 1991, we had a theater critic, a film critic, a pop music critic, a jazz critic, a ballet dance critic, a pop music critic, literary critic, and classical music critic would you believe so you know it was and a visual critic. So that was common in newspapers at that time, and now we don't have any, any full time critics accept our film critic at the times, and we have a number of people who are arts people arts writers on the staff, but kind of do all sorts of things and assign to do various things. They don't have a beat like I did that was very specific. And to me that's a shame, because there's just no way you get the coverage that we were able to do back then, without people following everything that was going on you know in the jazz scene or the theater scene or dancing. I think every kind is I said every kind of journalism that informs people about what's going on, since a lot of people have no idea what's going on, even if they're interested well read. They just don't have those guidelines they don't have those calendars they don't have city arts which was very helpful, and just letting people know every month hey that all this stuff is happening. And when it comes to criticism, I really think that a healthy arts community has people who are decent writers and who have thought long and hard and have background of one kind or another in their field, and can be analytical about what I'm a little worried that if we move totally toward the realm of feature writing and sort of, you know profiles and interviews that we don't look for those great talents and and discuss why you know why these people are exceptional. And why they deserve more audience. We also don't have somebody who's candidly saying this didn't work, you know, and the idea may have been good the concept the politics, every aspect of the sort of package. But when it comes down to it with the arts, people are dissatisfied in the audience if they don't see good acting if they don't see good visuals if they don't, if they don't see something that they consider, even if the, you know it's a $2 98 budget. Something of quality that has a real core of excellence and I say that without any elitism, you know, because there are shows at the Fifth Avenue, the cost of million dollars that I haven't liked very much and didn't respond to and then there are our shows I've seen at the tiny as little basement theaters in town that really excited me. So, what I think is important about excellent criticism, and about preparing to become a critic is that you see as much as you can, you read as much as you can, you have as open to mind as you can, and you're not serving any constituency you're not trying to make the artist happy. You're not trying to make, you know, people who agree with you politically happy. You're really trying to capture and describe the event, the artists behind it, and what in your opinion and amounts to people can argue with you you're not the last word. If you have a voice and you have some knowledge, and you can give some context to what people are seeing. It's very valuable. That's just my opinion. And I wish I just wish we had, you know, more outlets now whether they're online or otherwise that value that that believe in, in arts criticism we have a few critics left here but very few. I guess, Misha I'd take that one step further. There are few critics there are few arts reporters in general. And I think that, you know, there's a question from Reagan in our chat what makes arts coverage good. A it has to exist for it to be good. And I think it, if society continues to see the arts as non essential. One of my bosses recently before right before I left called what I made fluff. It's viewed that way from the time people enter the public education system until, you know, it goes on and on until you're old so there's an over overarching attitude that it's the least important thing. And in my mind it's the most important thing and so I think Misha's right in terms of having a background and and having a real depth of knowledge but I think if people don't even know why something that that something is being made. They can't appreciate why it's being made or how it fits in or if it's good or bad, because they don't even know about it so you know as as somebody who does do those profiles and features I would just speak up for the importance of those and I think, really, the, the biggest problem and is that arts has been so separated from people's lives that it's been deemed elitist that it's not seen as something that comes out of every community that's vital in every community that differs, depending on, you know, what you're interested in who you are what your background is and so I think the established arts community is just starting to understand that right now, maybe in the past. Well, definitely in the past year but maybe the past five years or so and I think that extends to the kind of coverage that I know I did, you know the pivots that I made a few years ago. And I think that that if we talk about, you know, waving a magic wand number I think part of that wand is, for me, really making people who don't think it's an essential part of life to see that that arts and culture are vital to us as human beings. So that's, that's what I would add. I just want to echo what Marcy just said and just express the importance of having arts coverage so that community members can know what's going on in their community with members of their community who may be practicing the arts right alongside them. And I would just key off something that Misha mentioned the question why that's something that I really like to dive into when I am talking to artists, going beyond the work itself, but looking into their aspirations their motivations, you know, get to those below questions on why did they make the choices they made and so on just so that audiences can get to know the artists and their work just a little bit better beyond what they might see on stage. And, and that's what I like to see in arts coverage. You know, jump in there and say, you know, that kind of context, or I often think about it as like humanizing things or figuring out where the connection points are for an audience or potential audience, you know, making sure that there's a way to sort of draw out what's relevant about something whether to a community, a specific community, whether to an issue, whether to, you know, just, you know, an art for our stakes kind of reason, helping people find those connections and go a little bit deeper and even get ready not just to be aware that a thing is happening, so that they could potentially go see it but also like to mentally get their mind around it so that they're even ready for the criticism kind of side of things after the fact because I think a lot of this criticism is speaking to a narrow audience and I'm 100% on board with, you know, at this stage anyway, I'm very on board with critics being extremely knowledgeable, I think it's important to show respect to the work that's being made by bringing knowledge to the table, but somehow that gets us into this verified space and I know that at City Arts by far the things that trafficked the worst were reviews. And I don't think that's because reviews aren't very important, I think they are very important but I think there's some kind of a gap there that happens with like media literacy potentially or like wherever that kind of breakdown starts to happen in terms of like where arts and culture are sitting in the society, you know, more broadly, you know, because people do value these things, but they don't value them with money. And so that's a breakdown, you know that where is that value we just sort of expect it to materialize like a bunch of, you know, fairies just sprinkling it out in the world. And all these different things there are different chasms where it sort of breaks down. And so you have to build the bridge from the thing exists to the thing is covered in a thorough and credible way to the thing is reviewed in a way that the audience can appreciate that is accessible and knowledgeable and somehow try to lift that value across the board so that there is money to support it and tickets to be bought and that the whole ecosystem can be functioning. Yeah, I'll just, I just want to add one thing. I don't think anymore that criticism has to be over here because what you're talking about you know three different stories about the same piece forget it that's not going to happen anymore. We just don't have the pipeline for that. But I think Marcy is a very knowledgeable person, she goes to everything. I mean I'd see, I'd see her at things that you know she would probably not normally go to, except she wanted to educate herself on what's happening. So, even if you're writing, you know, about something and you're not officially being a critic. And then the other short point I'll make is that one of the problems about previewing things is you have not seen them, and you don't know the value. So if there's anything I would suggest to somebody who is privileged to be in that position of writing regularly about the arts, go see it first. You'll have more to say about it, you'll have more to reach out about it and there'll be some things where you'll say, you know, this is not worth the ink that I could be giving to something that I think is more important. So, that's it. Sorry. So, talking a little bit more about that when it comes to getting people to go see art in the first place. I think, especially with my demographic with teenagers. We have a lot just in general going around us when it comes to technology and things that we're doing. And so art kind of tends to just fall a little bit because we have so much that is going on. And just a lot of things that are happening. And so even for me, just getting into the door of like arts community was really hard because I never saw what was there in the first place in general because I wasn't looking for it. I just, I just happened to stumble upon it and I'm very glad that I did because I don't know what I would be doing if I was not here. But I think getting people to that door and just kind of opening it for them is the most important step because once you're there, I think it's really easy to kind of navigate the art space and the arts community because you just meet people and you see things and you just keep going to support these people. It is a community and especially Seattle's community. It's really close and once you're there, you're there and you just kind of know everyone. And so getting someone to that door first is really important. And I think getting people there at a young age or it doesn't matter what age but getting people there young would be great because then they would support for years and years and years. So I think just utilizing the different spaces that arts has come to, especially with the pandemic and COVID and arts kind of having to move to an online space, utilizing social media, TV, just video and things like that, kind of adapting arts criticism to these venues that people will tend to look at more is just really important because I think, even though I really love just the writing and things like that and that's what I prefer to view my art as I know a lot of other people don't. And so moving to that to make sure that art is alive for everyone is is just really important. And just to add on to what everyone else has already said, I think, you know, to go back to the question of like what makes good like you know criticism arts criticism for me it's like you know, like everyone's been saying it's like it takes someone who's like a real you know, whatever they're talking about. So it's like they're able to connect x, y and z and present to you in a way like why they think this way, but then also I think for me. I really like critics who can like put no some of their own perspective and stuff. So you know, I think part of that is you know making sure that the people who are getting into criticism stuff are coming from different backgrounds with different perspectives, and I think that's something, you know, kind of touching on is that like I do think for younger versions, when you say arts and then you go to when their eyes tend to glaze over whatever but like art encompasses so much right and you know, to really change the narrative about what art can be and how we should value it I think is is so important and, and you know, making sure that art criticism I think evolves and develops and we get more new unique voices in there is just to make it you know more accessible, like, like everyone. I think for youth, especially I think it's just a common stereotype in general like oh we're on our phones we're on TikTok all the time or whatever and we're just so disconnected from reality and things like that, and I think that there is a scent of truth to that. But in my time in the arts community I have met so many teenagers who are so incredibly young and just youth in general who are so connected to the arts, and are just so passionate about it that they're in their interest is just so infectious that I just get more interested in things I want to see and the people around them just really get into it. And so I think it's just making it something that's just interesting and exciting and getting people to want to see these things. At the end of the day when talking to youth, we shouldn't talk down to youth because I think they can understand just as much as anyone else can. And I really like in reviews and things like that I think Misha you were talking about this but like getting really analytical and really personal I think is just so cool to see because we're humans and humans respond to emotion and things like that and it's really cool to see in arts pieces and arts criticism and making sure that teens and just everyone has access to this so people aren't left out of the loop, I think is just really important when it comes to that. I want to, I want to make a pitch here for the American Theater Critics Association because in the last few years, my organization which was largely white and male for many years is now really reaching out and we have many more arts writers of colors from all over the country. We had a conference about that which was very interesting. And I think that it's beginning to happen that that what some of the things you're talking about, in terms of access and involvement of other points of other writers is, you know, encouraging. It's really sad to me that some of the great people who belong to the organization now who are in their 20s, you know, have to do five jobs to, to exist. But I'd encourage anybody who is kind of serious about this to look at their website American Theater Critics Association and see if there's something there for you they really really are reaching out and looking to involve. In a serious way, not just a kind of bullshit, you know, window dressing way. Young critics and young critics of color. I think that's a really good kind of segue just to, to talk a bit more about about culture and about access points and I'm wondering how folks view. What is what is the responsibility of arts critics to understand and engage with the culture that's producing the art, and then also how, how have you navigated your own identity politics or personal by bias when covering arts. I'd like to talk about that a few years ago. I really did a lot of deep soul searching Reagan and thought about what I had been covering and who I was covering. And so the first thing that I did was actually ask as wide an audience as I could who I should be covering. And it evolved into something called artists you should know. And, and so it's a lot of, of listening, I think, and really, you know, there's a knowledge base. Misha's right I go to see over the years I've seen a lot of performances and I cannot wait to be back in a theater of small big, you name it I just want to be sitting with people again but I think that one thing that I have really thought about as an somebody who has done a lot of interviews is that listening, it really is the foundation and so, you know, whoever you're covering it, you need to approach with respect but also with with that ear and mind open without the preconceived ideas of what you're going to see and that could be, you know, a swan lake with a whole bunch of white girls and white swan outfits, which is nice or could be a very radical art show that is made by a lot of young people of color who have a very specific message. And so I really think I had a friend years ago when I was at a NEA fellowship who said he entered everything with his heart chakra open and, and waited to receive it and I think that is really fundamentally how I try to go about anything just a calendar listing thinking about where I'm going but but really trying to understand and hear and, and if I make a mistake be willing to listen to people tell me I made that mistake because that's happened, not infrequently in my career. I appreciate these questions because both of these questions about engaging with the culture are foundational to the work I do with the international examiner. So for those who are not familiar with the examiner, it is the oldest and largest nonprofit media outlet here in the Pacific Northwest focused on the Asian Pacific American community. So it may seem, you know, unusual that I might be a long standing writer given that I am not Asian or Pacific American. But what I have done with the encouragement of our arts editor Alan Lau is to really try to listen as Marcy would say, really try to understand the artists and how they emerge from their communities and how they want to relate to their work and really open space for their voices in the writing that I do so it's much less about my opinion about their work but really just trying to give them that opportunity to speak to their larger community and facilitating that being the ear that listens, the, the, the questioner that asks why and what are your challenges and really trying to get to the bottom of the, the artistic process and then sharing that out to the broader community. In addition to all of that, you know, I think it's important to say that, you know, bringing writers to the floor to cover work that is, you know, tied to coming from some kind of relationship with a community that they know does make a big difference, you know, and, you know, that's not always possible and so we do our best under different circumstances, but I think that that kind of, you know, speaks to the reason why we need this diversity of writers, you know, all sorts of different knowledge culturally and otherwise to bring that, that point of view to the work. You know, I certainly know that as we widened our contributor base at CityArts, the, the, the sort of scope of what we were able to address got bigger, you know, and then as much as I am 100% on board with the idea of listening also and that same kind of stance that I take when I'm in that journalist role, I don't know what I don't know. I do screw up and there's only so much that I can get from that kind of agnostic neutral kind of trying to be neutral even though I'm not kind of plays, you know what I mean. So yeah, just to say, you know, more voices equals more knowledge equals more cultural competency equals maybe a shifting dynamic around all of this 20 years down the road where like whatever the kind of differences might be of who covers what and things like that might change. But yeah, can't, it can't be under said how valuable that really is. Totally. I think that. Sorry, I lost my dream of thought, but I think, you know, arts and cultures like you hear that phrase arts and culture, like, you know, they go together for a reason sort of thing. And so it's totally like, you know, not talking about one without the other, I think it's really hard to do. And so that's why there's such a responsibility for critics journalists when they cover one they should probably address the other one. I think for me personally when I am covering something that's like outside of my own community or communities that I'm a part of. I really think about is, you know, of course listening, but also doing my research ahead of time so really making sure that I come in where with, you know, as best of an understanding that I can, so that I'm asking questions that go beyond maybe the ones that I always ask because I think that's something where it's like you get an interview with them and then, you know, they probably have got a bunch of times like what is it like being like an Asian American like you know in the hip hop industry or something like that. And while it's like important to talk about that if that's already been asked a bunch of times, you know doing your research and making sure that you, you know, sort of go beyond those layers that I were not just tokenizing these people. As an artist. I think is equally as important. I think that's really, that's really a good point. I personally want to hear from critics of all different backgrounds what they think about Shakespeare, or what they think about, you know, the the latest play that won the Tony or whatever years ago, many years ago, I was asked to put together the first anthology of Asian American plays. And, you know, while today, I'm sure that an Asian American critic would be asked and that would be appropriate. It just happened that because I lived in San Francisco and I covered all this work by David Henry Wong and Philip Katanda and, you know, a number of really great African American writers and I had seen a lot. I was able to do that, and to, you know, write the forward and historical forward and so on. And I consider that, you know, a great privilege and also a very rich experience for me to be able to see these wonderful playwrights in their earliest stages. They happen to be produced a lot in Southern, in Southern and Northern California at the time. So, you know, maybe it isn't right now that this is going to happen like Grace said, but I hope, eventually, I'd love to hear, you know, every kind of writer from every kind of background, talking about everything, whether it's, you know, the the latest in my musical or as, as Marcy said, a traditional two to one lake or we may be going through a period now because it's so new to have such a range of critics represented that that's not, you know, what's going to happen for a while. But I hope that, you know, eventually it is I don't think we should be segmented our intellects and our imaginations as writers should be put in a box. You know, the grace you're just the Asian American, you know, arts journalist and everything you do has to be about that and about that in a specific way. So, that's my hope for the future. Definitely. So I think that in terms of awareness in the past couple of years, our awareness when it comes to identity and identity politics has increased and I'm very grateful for that. I feel like when in a way it comes to me, I, I think I forgot to mention in the intro. I am an Indian dark skinned woman. And so, when I navigate any art spaces I tend to before I go into it, I tend to think, do I present myself as an Indian person do I just present myself as someone who is just a person or what do I do when I come into this space, how do I have the people to see me. And as I grew up and as I kind of wrote things and put out stuff. I always wanted to present myself as some that that was someone that was faceless because I didn't really want to appeal to any specific audience based on my kind of identity when it comes to my ethnicity, because I was always very afraid of kind of the stuff that would happen if I did that. And I think it's okay if you don't want to put your identity out there that's perfectly valid. And if you do want to put your identity out there that's also valid too. But I think that there are a lot of pros and cons to come with it because for me my, the reason that I was afraid and I still am afraid of making my ethnicity in front of what I write about is because if I do that kind of like Misha like you said, I'm getting boxed into that narrative like I am an Indian writer I always need to put my experiences of being an Indian female into my work and then me saying do people want to hear this do people want to know about this when I just want to write about something that I love and I don't really want to look at this through a lens of race, and it is really good to do that but sometimes when I look at things I just want to look at it for the artistic value and that's also valid too. And that's not just a very apparent in the arts field like typecasting and things like that in theater and movies. It's just really prevalent and I really hate seeing that especially when we are trying to bring a lot of people forward in casting and diversity. Just making sure that the normality of people of color is being shown through daily life is just really important and not everything needs to be about like starting a conversation and we just want to hear a diverse representation of voices to be shown and to be heard in the arts community and I really am looking forward to seeing that and I think that is starting to happen with the awareness that is coming up. I think with the voices that we want to hear we want to hear people starting conversations and we also want to hear people just being normal and talking about their daily lives and we just want to hear a little bit of everything from everyone and hopefully we can start getting that in the arts field just not just in criticism but everywhere else. Yeah and in some ways maybe that sort of you know you encapsulate like the complexity of all of this you know everything that we're all saying points to the fact that there really is no answer to the question or pair of questions that Reagan has asked us maybe but it's more about a willingness to be kind of perpetually interrogating these things and holding ourselves to account from a million different directions and letting that prism shift you know as awareness changes on an individual or a societal or a cultural level, you know. I think that's really well put and I want to also throw it back to Reagan this question because Reagan you put a lot of yourself into your journalism your book is still here a south end mixtape from an unexpected journalist which is an awesome name which is funny also because there are so many folks who kind of shared that they were in some ways unexpected journalists in this group but in that book it's an amalgamation of a bunch of different journalism from a lot of from many many years including a lot of arts journalism and there's a lot of yourself in there and and you the way from the way that you approach that writing and so I'm wondering how how you approach your writing through this lens of identity politics and and kind of also transitioning into thinking of like well where we go for from here what what is. What do you want to see I think from a personal standpoint for each of you what do you want to see more of an art journalism that and arts criticism that you're not seeing. Thanks for that framing November. Definitely. I feel like I have unwittingly put myself as in the position of being a counter narrative. And that wasn't necessarily what I started out to do, but when you begin, you know, when you begin writing. I think one thing that comes up is kind of as you're reading everyone else's work what are the holes what are the gaps and what I was seeing particularly in in arts coverage is sometimes like I would go to a show and somebody else would go to a show and we'd like cover it but I'd be like did we go to the same because I saw something completely different than this other person saw and that's what really what really came up for me around embracing my identity embracing all all the parts of who I am is that being a black American woman in this time and in this place like has given me a lot of perspective with which to to have a critique to have, you know, a perspective in a view and rather than silencing that or marginalizing that I, I have often made the choice to be like okay well I'm going to tell you who I am and then I'm going to tell you what I saw and what I think and why. And then, and then after that you know we can have a dialogue about what you saw and who you are and what you think and why. And I don't know I kind of I, I feel like I identify with a bit of what this just says around like not always wanting to have to do all of that prep work, but feeling like so often I'm in conversations with folks who need that additional context for me to even begin to understand what it is I'm talking about. So you know it's it's one of those situations I feel I feel a bit. Sometimes I'm like you're welcome. And I feel a little like a jerk, but I'm like no really I'm giving you this gift. I'm giving you the gift of, of what I've learned and what I've earned through this, through this process and I want that to be seen. I think it's not surprising that. Here we are a bunch of female identified folks on this call. So often in the same way that the the arts are marginalized, I feel like women are are invisibilized in our work and our perspective and our critiques are often just, oh that's cute, you know, relegated to. You know, the chick lit shelf, if that makes a sense, makes any sense. So yeah I, I find visibility as a tool to to work around that and to say okay well let's let's really get into it let's really talk about it. Hi, I would love to hear from others about kind of what your process is and kind of what would not have said before the central question around. If you could wave a magic wand, like how would we want to reinvent this what what is your ideal. One thing I'd love to see is I write occasionally for this website called organ arts watch in Portland. And now this woman has put her money into this really good website that is run by, you know, two guys I know who used to be arts editors at the Oregonian, which also has very little arts coverage now. It is a beautiful site I encourage you to look at it. Because they cover a wide range of things they have, you know, real good writers of all the different backgrounds, but they somehow have found someone who was willing to back this and make it a really, you know, good looking site that a lot of people consult the blog. And of course, a lot of blogs, we all learned, you know, the average blog is read something like by five people a month I mean it's, you know, bogs are just everywhere and that has not been the answer unless you are able to find some serious backing to promote the blog to give it the range and depth that you want to to make it look great. And one of the things I'd really like to see is somehow getting either commercial investors or foundations to put some serious money into that I know Leah, you guys really tried to save your outlet and it was, you know, a valiant effort that didn't didn't work. But I'm, you know, I just hope that that that there can be a united effort and I think I really hope the arts organizations get behind something like this to they've got their own problems but it's only going to be beneficial to them. But Misha, don't you think that it's a bigger problem than just finding somebody with money. I mean I go back to how Americans, so let's just focus on Americans, how we even perceive the arts and culture in society, I don't think it's ever going to be I think we can start a million things but it's never going to have that kind of of valuation that we really need until society really values what are what art is within it and so that's a long term project. I think you have to work on more than one track at once. Yeah, that's about education and our educational system and I think we have to do what you're, what you're saying is fundamental. I guess I just, you know, I'm, I'm old, and I've gotten hard bitten and cynical as I've watched my co my coworkers my colleagues disappear Misha talked about all the, the critics who used to be at the Seattle Times it's always just been me, covering like everything. Okay, I did have a co worker who went to King FM so we could just focus on music Dave back. But that was it, you know and it was a constant fight and it was a constant fight, because I think art is seen as the least important thing I still subscribe to the Seattle Times and there's a whole section. It's all about sports teams and our, you know is sometimes there's an article with the Northwest section which now is like two pages long. So, even the local news isn't that important I spend hundreds of dollars a year for this leaflet that gives me the stuff I want to know. So, I mean I agree with you there has to be a lot of different fronts like I'm excited about the city of Seattle's creative advantage program because I think we have to really value art at a deeply fundamental level to even make a place for the discourse about it I mean we could write but if nobody wants to read what we write or listen to what we say. So just our words are just going off into the wind. So that's my cynical and not magic one that's like prove me wrong, Disha prove me wrong grace. It does seem to have to operate on every single level and I mean, I know the heartbreak of putting your life into something and having it just like go off the cliff, you know. You make something that people really value in love and it still can run out of money right so how do you insulate against that right how do you come at it from all sides, address the really deep stuff that has to do with like American wackness and get to that education place, you know, and also have arts coverage arts criticism, either or or both happening at every level, you know happening on a project based level, happening on an Instagram level and a TikTok level and a blog level and happening on a you know more robust marketing money behind a kind of website that's getting more traffic having some kind of steak planted in the big outlets, you know, like finding ways to make that feasible. You know, I think sometimes obviously, you know, Misha and Marcy can speak to this at much greater depth but sometimes there's even support for that kind of thing in the big places, but there isn't, they can't make that full calculation right because there is like a whole other downward pressure that's happening for the people making those choices. And so how do we offset that. And so I do think there is something where you know we can be cultivating a little support for membership type things like what we tried to do with City Arts and whatnot. We can have more public radio type support and do, you know, try to cultivate the kind of thing like KXB has or KUW has. And I think governments and philanthropy do play a role. And, you know, what that looks like is a kind of new wave of figuring out how journalism works in general because it raises all these credibility and control concerns. But, you know, I know a couple of you guys, Reagan and Marcy were both part of a research product I did two years ago, I think, for the Office of Arts and Culture where we're trying to figure out this question like what do you actually do what's the intervention. And if you're the Office of Arts and Culture and you see how important this kind of work is to the city's creative vitality and to its identity as a place, then what do you do. And so we came up with like some real things, you know, we talked to arts and media educators, we talked to critics, we talked to PR people and like collected and synthesized all this information and there were some cool ideas that came out of that and I delivered this report of how that all happened like two months before. And so one hopes that it will be able to get like dusted off and put that plan back into action in some way but we were talking about things like an aggregator that would help to lift up all these different types of work that people are doing. We have an editorial board that was like pulled from the community to help guide it in some kind of way. We were talking about grants for things like internships and other kinds of like criticism efforts that are so hard to defend from a financial point of other special projects, we were talking about different kinds of professional development and even PR support for the smaller entities that can afford to even interact with any sort of a media situation, you know, so that even that is an ecosystem unto itself but I think that if we take that systemic approach in every way of slicing it on every access, then that's the only way right because otherwise like there are five people with these jobs anymore. And how can we do any of the things that we're talking about even in terms of just like a doing good work and be having a diversity of voices who can represent all the things like we can't do any of that if there's only five jobs. So, yeah, big, big thing to take on and you know kudos to the rep for hosting this conversation and it goes far beyond the theater coverage part of it as well you know it has to be all the arts simultaneously in order for the ship to actually rise. And then it's all of culture and then it's you know how does that just widen and widen and widen and then we're back to Disha's point about like, how do you get people to be involved and how does everyone get invited to the party, you know. Yeah, I think that ecosystem concept is really important because when I think about transforming a landscape for both arts coverage and for theater in general and the arts in general I do think of community conversations and I think of making everything participatory so what is a format that's not just a one way conversation where we are delivering some kind of coverage or some kind of criticism or some kind of write up but how do we make that a community conversation that other people can participate in how do we make it a forum. Yes, there are, you know, maybe ways to comment on some outlets but a lot of times it's like throwing comments into the black hole and it's not really as much of a conversation as might be inspiring to both artists and audience members. I don't know magic wand, you know how to make how the magic wand makes, you know, in a community space like that. I just have to say that for about nine years, I did that I tried to do that I forced Kow does let me have post show conversations it was a program called front row center, and then I nagged all the arts organizations to give ticket discounts to people for these events and the last one was supposed to be number was it last May, May 15. Yeah, yeah, Lydia and the troll was supposed to be at the rep was my last one because I was supposed to retire that day, but my idea was like I'd love to convene groups of people to go around to different things and the stranger did that with teen ticks which was I think. David Schmader who did that took a dish were you around at teen ticks when he did that we brought people to every show that on the boards produced I thought that was a fabulous idea and I'm not sure if people wrote about it afterwards but they talked, and I so I was doing a different version of that. And, and it was, you know, my idea was that you raise the curtain with an audience and the generative artists so that there can be that direct interaction and I think I totally agree Roxanne that needs to happen. I think in terms of like waving a magic wand and making the landscape arts coverage just a lot more easier I think we're just making, making art a lot more accessible to a lot of different communities. I think with the pandemic and coven and everything when art made its shift to online. It was really hard for everyone and even though I really dislike viewing art online and I much rather prefer like the in person experience as I believe everyone hopefully would. The online experience was a lot more accessible though like I believe I saw an online exhibit of something that I think was an in person exhibit in Florida. And so you can just see stuff from everywhere in the world and ticket prices went down a lot so you could just sit with your family and get other people involved that way and I think that was just a huge pro of online art. In general, though I am very happy of things moving back to exhibits and in person and things like that, but I do hope that we don't lose that from the pandemic just trying to move like a few things to the online space so people who don't get to experience like that. But I think also when it comes to I think Marcy and and everyone else was talking about this, I'm like putting monetary like value in art. It also kind of depends on what society values in general like the tech industry and things like that and medicine and it's like stem it's very it's being driven a lot right now and you look at what a lot of youth and people in general are studying and it's just a lot of this stuff which is really great but I feel like art is being lost there, especially I think with Americans and the whole world is kind of looking at these really advanced industries and things like that to move forward. And art is just is just being lost I feel like because it's it's not advancing in the same way. And people are like oh look at Hollywood look at that there's so much money there there's so many people their stars and celebrities and, and whatever but I don't think that's entirely true because what about the art down here at the local level, which has as much love put into it and as much support and as much passion into it if not more, and a lot of people are forgetting about that and I feel like it's really important to shine a light on that then just the Hollywood image and things like that. And just people in general are forgetting about it and parents and everyone is like, Oh, you need to go into a lucrative business and things like that and it that is there is a sense of truth in that but I think that young people are going towards that idea of a more lucrative business than passion which which makes sense and I, I get why but I think that's why arts, the arts in general arts criticism is is losing a lot of people and it's just harder these days with the idea of growth, being the number one thing that is driving our society forward. And that's what everything is about it's just growth and moving forward and advancement and things like that and a lot of people are being left behind in this mindset, people of color are being left behind socio economic communities that aren't doing so well are being left behind and, and art is being left behind because of that growth mindset and I feel like we just only to take a step back and reevaluate our beliefs in this kind of area and just kind of sit down and just chill out a little bit and make sure that we can pick up things that we left behind and, and give value to things that historically had value before for other people and making sure that people in general all identities get to have a space to sit down and just work in Well, not to sound patronizing Disha but you make me feel very hopeful. You are the youngest person here and it's going to be up to you and people who feel this way to fight for this. As time goes on and I hope you continue feeling as passionate about it. Yeah, just to go off of that. I think I was just so frustrated when people are like so like stem focused because it leaves out like the arts. And I know there's like steam and but like not all, not everyone like uses that but like, you know, everyone's like You know, you should focus on engineering or whatever because that's definitely going to make money just kind of going off of what everyone's been saying about how we value art. That's, that's definitely something that's that I think like starts you know, it starts with like at home, you know, with parents who are willing to like, you know, make time for that kind of stuff. But also like starts with like accessible experiences. That's the other part we've been talking about so you know, making having schools classes you know go on field trips to museums or whatever having things like team tickets where you're going to show your students is actually accessible. The other thing I kind of wanted to talk about was like, just from like a journalism standpoint and like, being a recent college grad is just the importance of like, making sure there's like internships and opportunities so like grants or whatever for like young critics, people who like, these are really interested in this and like summer break or whatever they want to do an internship with Seattle Met or something. They can do that so that we can make those connections and they can get that practice, like the internships that I had. All of them were unpaid. And so I had to, you know, like make that decision I was fortunate that was in a financial situation where it was okay, but like, you're leaving so many people out of like journalism just in general when you don't offer those opportunities to them because they financially cannot do it. And I think that's just such a shame and such it's such an easy way to like you know, bring these marginalized voices and these initiatives in to like arts criticism and whatnot. And so I just I just really think outlets that do exist, like, you know, that can offer mentorship or an internship or whatever and making sure that they're reaching back down and kind of lifting those voices and supporting those people who are interested in this because as as we're seeing like kids and young people who are into this exist, you know, so just really making sure that we're fostering this and in the youth, I think. Something that you just said in their grace kind of before the internship tip which I think you're totally right. Thinking about like parents at home and how they model this kind of value system. And then that made me think a little bit about what you know the framing or the driving forces behind the series for this panel, right and like it's sort of in this moment, where we've now lived through this experience up to this point and everything else major that's been going on. In the meantime, and people are changed by that right like I know I feel certain ways that my values have shifted. And I can't imagine that most people don't feel that in some way right. And so, is this a moment when telling the story of this, right, telling the story of this cultural issue needs some media problem you know there's a very complex thing that is sort of trying to untangle but like, maybe this is the time when the receptivity is the highest, you know, maybe this is the time where the chances for these interventions to actually work and like course correct are the greatest and that the artists and the art journalists alike can have, you know, an impact in moving the needle now in a way that would have been harder to do even just, you know, two or three years ago. So, you know, I almost, it makes me wonder what folks think about like how do we see this moment, if I'm allowed to ask a question in my blood. So, yeah, how do we see this moment how do we usher in the kind of change that we're, you know, we're beaming out this vision collectively it seems a long way off. So how do we grab the strings or the reins of now. That's such a good question Leah and I think you're right I think the, if I could be Polly Anna about a pandemic that has shut down every arts organization in the world and cost tens of millions of people jobs. The upside is that it's given everybody during closure time to rethink, you know the rep. You know we're here as guests of Seattle Repertory Theater and I totally appreciate that that I really see work being done on the parts of arts organizations I have, I have to say, I'm not, I hadn't been in a newsroom for 18 months because we were all sent home in March of 2020 so the conversations about change in the houses of mainstream media. I'm not sure keeping pace with the conversations that are happening with the arts organizations within them themselves. So I see, I'm hoping to be really optimistic that the structural changes at the organizations themselves are going to drive the kinds of coverage and the way that that we in the media get to respond to what they're producing what they're creating. I hope that. That's going to help. I'm excited. I know between you and Vivian, the vibes will be heavy. Well, I had to laugh because Disha and Grace were talking about steam. I've been editing a conversation with Trish Maline Ziko of the technology access foundation and Tina Lopadula who's the education manager for the Office of Arts and Culture about just this very very subject and and about equity and education so that's episode three coming in July but you know it's something that I actually was happy to step away from the kind of coverage that we're talking about here because the longer that I did this 40 years is a really time to do anything. I stopped asking what and started to ask why and so I look for I was thrilled to participate Leah in your study for the city of Seattle and hope that that that report those recommendations that you may do get asked it off because I think that the kind of of really inclusive arts journalism with the kind of of internships that Grace and Disha are talking about cannot exist with the media landscape as it is there must be some kind of of support and and I for years I used to think about the idea of like an associated press of the arts where everybody would come together and I'm sorry Misha's gone because the Seattle Times, it was like, what, we're not going to collaborate with you. I did get them to work on a project but I think I think that we're stronger together, especially because there are so few jobs and grace. I love you for taking unpaid internships that's illegal. We want to pay you. And so at KUOW, just if you're interested this would be for Disha radioactive our youth media training program I worked a lot with that those are paid those those, you know you apply it's pretty negative but those are paid. I've trained at Tintix so I just think there has to be a way to really acknowledge financially the the kind of training that we need to see in the mentorship that we want to provide. So, I will shut up now. Yeah, I think in terms of making arts and putting arts in the forefront of things again and getting more people involved. I think we need to take advantage of the momentum that we already have surrounding awareness of identity and of arts in general and I think coming out of the pandemic I think it's a great time to do that because people are hungry for for art in general everyone wants to go back everyone wants to go see things and I think if we just take advantage of this momentum and this kind of rush of people to go back to a sense of normalcy now I think I think arts in general can just get out of the ground and and and take advantage of social media and just different types of media in general, like blogs and in YouTube and just everything just anyone can go see can go to go see things, making things more accessible, making sure that younger audiences are interested especially and can go see it. And I think just making things a lot more simpler I think would just be really nice, just so everyone of all types of backgrounds can be interested, can go and see things and just making sure that that passion is there which I think it definitely is. And it's so unfortunate that people are not seeing that. But I think with this momentum that we have going back into things I think hopefully people will start seeing things and just get way more excited to go back into art exhibits and things like that. I think we can start to close out but I'd love to hear from to kind of end with it and I'm sure sure a mic drop will happen, as there have been many. I'd love to hear from Reagan on this subject of waving a magic wand, and then we'll close out here. Ooh. There's, there's always so much. In terms of the internships and the financial piece what keeps coming up for me is having had the opportunity to visit Cuba. It was really fascinating to be in a country where, you know, a doctor theoretically will make the same amount as a street musician so if there's zero like financial incentive to choose a specific path, like folks are really making that decision based on what it is that they really want to do like what's in them to do and what I found was in Cuba, but there was so much amazing art and dance and music and, and it felt like an art attunement just being there like I felt like they just poured the art into me and I came back and I was painting for days. There was something really, like if I could wave a magic wand, I think there's something really powerful in taking us out of a space where there are have to, like, oh, I have to go to work because I need to make money to pay for, you know, my life or I have to do this because it's prestigious and people will see me as in a certain way if I'm doing this. So I think my magic wand would involve like helping people connect directly with their purpose. And if their purpose is solely like I'm here to put together this art or I'm here to sing this song or, you know, write this theater piece or do this musical like I think that that in and of would change the shape of art and change the shape of, of then how we would receive it and how we would, how we would feel called to engage with it. The other thing that that really comes up for me is around tokenizing and feeling like, while there, there's often this, this sense of, okay, we're ready now, we're ready to have different perspectives and folks from different cultural backgrounds share. I think sometimes it's, it's a lie. They're like, we're ready to have you share in this way. In the, in the framework that we designed that feels comfortable to us. And they may not resonate with you, but don't step out of this boundary, or else there is no money and there is no access. So that's another whoo, you know, thing I would like to, to alleviate with my magic wand. And I think part of it is, we tend to continue as we've begun. And if we have begun something in an inequitable way where not everybody's voices are heard or we're not on equal footing. That completely needs to be disrupted so that we can have a new beginning where everyone is present in the, in the co creation of whatever it is we're going to do next. And to your point or to your question, Leah, around kind of what is the magic of this moment or what is the power of this moment it's that we have all collectively had the experience of understanding that we were lied to for so many years I was told that well you just have to be patient. You know, like change is going to come but you just going to have to like really be patient because change doesn't happen overnight and then in March of last year, everything changed in a minute. So you can't tell me that lie anymore. I don't believe it anymore. I do believe that changes entirely possible when everybody is highly motivated and ready to do it. Ready or not, if it's necessary we will do it. And I guess what needs to shift is, is that urgency around what is necessary. Because I, I feel like, especially like folks of color been saying for the long, long time like things need to change things need to change things need to change like this is a moment where everyone can hear the urgency and really respond and it is time for us to start again. Thank you Reagan. That's absolutely the mic drop I thought would happen. Thank you so much. What's so fascinating about this conversation is how many elements of our arts landscape influence this conversation around arts criticism and arts journalism that the, a lot of different shifts need to happen. I guess in our art landscape on our stages in our organizations in the general public perception of the arts, kind of with that, this new wave of arts criticism will come because it will be necessary because we'll be hungry for it. And because the funding and the perspective behind it will be there. So it's a really interesting framing y'all have created around this conversation. Thank you so much for joining us. Please make sure to check out the work of all of these incredible panelists. Get Reagan's book still here. Check out Marcy's podcast. Subscribe to the ever gray and the international examiner. Look into all of the journalism that all of these incredible journalists have created and please do read them. I mean it's just such a feast of artistry. So thank you all so much for being here. Thank you everyone who's watching. Have a lovely night.