 Hello and welcome. I'm Shane McLeod here at the Lowy Institute in Sydney and thanks for joining this Oz P&G Network live event. I'd like to at the start acknowledge the traditional owners of the land that I'm coming to you from. That's the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects and acknowledge those traditional owners and their leaders past, present and emerging. Well, here at the Oz P&G Network, we are all about connecting Papua New Guinea and Australia, something that has been a little tricky. I think we can all admit over the past 12 months, but it's something that we hope through events like this one, we can keep up those connections. There's been so much going on. I mean, can you believe we're already at February 2021. So lots to catch up on. I'm very fortunate to have with me today, a panel who can help us talk through some of the issues that have been going on in P&G over the last little bit, but also looking forward to what the events might be to watch in the coming year. So let me introduce them first. First up in the Post-Korea newsroom today is Rebecca Cuckoo, who is a journalist, both a freelancer and frequent contributor to both the Post-Korea and Guardian Australia. Hello to you, Rebecca. Hi. Hi, everyone. Also joining us from Port Moresby is the Deputy Director of Policy and Advocacy at Transparency International P&G. Yohan Bari Haihui. Gidai, Yohan Bari. We know you're there, Yohan Bari. We're just having a little technical issue switching to you. So I'll go to my third panelist, which is Patrick Caikou, who is a political science lecturer at the University of Papua New Guinea. Good afternoon to you, Patrick. Good afternoon, Yohan. Good afternoon, Shane. It's great to have the three of you joining us via Zoom from Port Moresby. We've fingers crossed the technology is going to be kind to us for you watching at home, or at your office, or at your desk, or on your mobile phone. Stick with us if we have some technical issues. We'll do our best to get back on track. But look, there is so much to talk about. There's been plenty going on in politics, plenty going on in the economy. We might talk politics just first up, just so we can really recap what happened in the last couple of months of last year. Rebecca, I might come to you first. I mean, that was a crazy period, about six weeks from November through till basically Christmas in politics. Prime Minister Marape, very, very close to being bundled out of office. What was it that really brought it along? I think, so yeah, let me just trade off, say first, a disclaimer. Anything that I say does not represent the view of the postcard or the guardian. So yeah, I personally think that the catalyst for the political turmoil that happened at the end of last year was due to the case that was before the Supreme Court questioning the policy of the Prime Minister James Marape's appointment. So we basically saw a lot of party leaders, everyone wanted to be Prime Minister. They thought that was a chance for it because the Prime Minister's case was before the Supreme Court and it just went crazy. And then people were going back and forth, back and forth, it went on. And then when the PM's case came true and he was, when the case was thrown out, we saw a lot of ampits just crossing back again. It suddenly all started happening, didn't it? Patrick, I know you wrote about this, this sort of legalistic trend that has been an increasingly big factor in politics in P&G. What do you think's going on? Why are the courts having to get involved so much in these cases? I would say basically that lawmakers are really still unsure about the roles and responsibilities and the powers and what they're supposed to be guarding in terms of the independence. The Constitution was written at a time when most Republicans were still not educated, literate, knowledgeable about the mechanics of a modern democratic system and therefore the courts was given more leverage and interventionist kind of role to interpret big areas of the Constitution or so they basically were given the task of social engineering and nothing. Dr. Balkama talks about this. The idea was that with time and maturity over a seven period of time, Papua New Guineaans and especially institutions like Parliament would now be more knowledgeable about their powers and be more independent and stop relying too much on the courts. But that has not been the case. Parliament is still a very, not institutionalizing it to be knowledgeable about the roles and performing that political modernization function that they're supposed to do. It's also to do with the political party system and it's a whole system kind of we're looking at how political modernization is not working so parliamentarians naturally don't know the roles of the constituents and therefore contracting out the role of interpreting standing orders and the various provisions in the Constitution. Something I wanted to talk to a bit more about because I think there's some really interesting aspects to how it was all resolved in the end but I'll just jump across to you Ann Burry. This all happened pretty much the day after Parliament passed the new ICAC laws. Is that a big factor in this? Do you think the push for new anti-corruption laws is becoming an issue that political leaders are finding themselves they want to engage in? Yes, so as Patrick's alluded to, the things that I love for the parliamentary process for debate of bills and legislation has eroded over time. It's always difficult to draw this cause and effect in terms of legislation. I think just for the viewers it was on the 12th that the bill was passed unanimously by 96 members of Parliament and then exactly the next day which was a Friday, the move to the opposition happened and the many constitutional crisis that happened towards the end of last year. I think speaking at an institution like you can also look at the regional trends and viewers might know about the Solomon Islands and the case around there on independent commission against corruption and the political upheaval that came from that. So it would be a reasonable conclusion to draw that the ICAC might have played into the the willing and billing of politics but as Patrick alluded to there's always so many different factors where it has to do with power perhaps within different political factions or in fact you know just basic strategizing for the 2022 national elections. I will say though that it's interesting to see following the fallout of that that both the Prime Minister and his former deputy Prime Minister was also the former attorney general trying to claim credit for the ICAC. So it might have been a factor but more people trying to ascribe themselves as being the anti-corruption faction in government. Do you think it's something that we'd like to see more of a focus on heading towards the elections in 2022? Will people want to be seen to be aligning themselves with that anti-corruption policy? Yeah it definitely seems to be one of the cuts that particularly new members of parliament used as coming in as reformers. One only needs to look at the new member for Medaing, Brian Krim and his platform but also parliamentarians like Gary Jufra and Bird have contained in the electorates particularly on the anti-corruption and governance platform. I mean something obviously TIPMG transparency can't stop up the evening would like to see more candidates doing but also I know Mr Kaiku is a very much of an electoral trends and you often have the incumbent very much trying to protect status quo and the challenge is always claiming to the anti-corruption fighters prior to entering office. So not to be too cynical but it's always people standing for seats in parliament that are new first time people always coming with the anti-corruption agenda and it's up to people of good will to then utilize that opportunity to engage with them if they do it happen to attend parliament. All right so back to you then Patrick I mean the resolution of this there were a lot of court cases there was a lot of back and forth between the Speaker, the Chief Justice, the Prime Minister. Has it been resolved? I mean do you feel that the legal issues have been sorted out in the status of parliament which seems to have been what the real questions were about the legality and the status of some of those parliamentary hearings. Have we seen the end of that and things have quietened down there? I would think the major winner out of all this was James Morales so just by the defection that happened he got to be a first time Prime Minister he actually got a sense of who to trust and who to work with and consolidate our base giving ministries and rewarding those who are loyal to him. Within that so the parliamentary dynamics of it as I see it is resolved I would not want to comment on the constitutionality or otherwise because I have not reading you know parliamentary hearings who submit cases before the before the Supreme Court for interpretation usually there is a way of trying to delay you know and the next move by the opposition you know so it's sometimes some of these cases are basically trivial matters a frivolous use of the Supreme Court just to stall time and to you know win you know support from undecided members who are moving back and forth. So I just I'm just limited that maybe a members of the audience who are more knowledgeable about constitutionality or whether it's. That's an excellent segue for me thanks Patrick so I should mention to people we will have a great opportunity for you to ask a question during our event today about half past the hour and we'll start taking some of your questions if you've got one you'd like to submit at the bottom of your screen on your device or on your computer there's a Q&A button if you type your question in there my colleague Jonathan Pike is going to help us pick some of those questions out and we'll be able to put them to our panel a little later in the event so do get busy there if you've got something you'd like to ask Rebecca can I come back to you there was so much going on in politics and things have calmed down what what is the prognosis for the Prime Minister now I know he's talked about parliament will sit in April is there an expectation that instability has gone away in politics it's the land of the unexpected anything can happen and from April when parliament sits again there's a window open who we always been from April to June so I can't really say because you you just can't be sure when it comes to politics I think that's fair enough answer and probably a good point for us to step away to something else now and I know you through your blog and through your work as a journalist have reported extensively on gender-based violence and there's been a terrible situation in Heller over the last couple of weeks a large number of people who were killed in clashes between various groups there for those of us watching from afar what's changed and what's going on that these substantial violent situations seem to keep happening and they seem to be a really big factor in that part of the Highlands where those big resource projects are a big factor as well what what's your sense of what's driving it um I think it's a cultural thing it's been there for years it's it's a normal practice for them um I think the main thing now is information and communication education now people you know showing them that this is wrong that they are lost now in png and we're not living in you know pastimes anymore and so it's kind of like um it's been there it's been practiced for a while there's been lots of fights over the years tribal fights and um in 2016 there was an SOE that went on to 2017 and then went on to 2018 with the earthquake and then the the SOE continued till 2020 so the government has been really trying to address this issue as well as the police um that they they have been trying but it's a long another issue that is still there and I think it's time that we you know see for what it really is it isn't a tribal fight it's a crime and they're not warlords they're criminals like we have to start addressing it that way is that main more security forces more police more pngdf personnel needed in that part of the world or is is there a different solution you think might be more effective I think it would be more better if they started criminalizing you see at the moment when there's a tribal fight they have peace talks they do compensations and then they settle for the issue no one gets arrested none of them gets you know put behind bars and that's why it continues it has to be criminalized you know we have to start referring to these tribal fights as um a massacre that's what it is they're killing people they're murderers they're not warlords and they need to be brought in and they need to be how that comes for that has to be charged and penalized for the actions thanks Rebecca I'll um I'll just let people know too for you watching at home um there's an article today on the low institutes interpreter blog written by liangirari about the situation hella and it's some pretty good background on where things are at I'd recommend to read if you get a chance to have a look at that and also to follow Rebecca's work on facebook particularly Rebecca's web page it's called Becky's World and she often writes about some of the drivers some of the social factors that are um and you know behind some of these issues that we see in the highlands um I might come across back to you you and bari because um iCAC we mentioned it as having been passed by parliament just a day before uh all the political turmoil of late last year what's actually been passed are we about to see a new organization set up in png to start um really tackling corruption yeah I think it's really important to maybe preface this with the the history of the work behind this institution um as your viewers might be aware um the popularity in perceptions of corruption and most recently in the recent corruption perception index resolved by transparency to national global um ranks pretty poorly um we the worst in the pacific so um in in terms of the responses that have been muted over the years um the independent permission against corruption has been something that transparency national png and others have been pursuing for um almost 20 years not 25 years um so initial discussions around it happened because of the work that has been done in Asian jurisdictions like Hong Kong and Singapore uh we might have just had a drop out there with you and bari's video fingers crossed we can get him back um while that's going on I might jump across to you Patrick I know one of the big issues for us down here in Australia there's been lots of coverage about it over the last couple of days is various proposals they're Australian we've got you and bari back so sorry you and bari we just lost you there for a sec we got to where you were telling us about how the legislation been modelled on Hong Kong and Singapore and other jurisdictions would you be able to pick up there and just tell us you know what we're going to see in png over coming months and years sure I was concerned I might have said something too sensitive there for a moment uh but the the independent commission against corruption basically is looking at um and that looks to the work that Rebecca has mentioned there's been a weakness in the integrity system of the country and in terms of prosecution of corruption cases um you have an investigation the IRS the charging of prosecution is all done by disparate constitutionally mandated bodies so the vision with the ICAC or the independent commission against corruption is to consolidate all of that into one agency so you have a body that has the ability to investigate IRS prosecute matters of corruption the bill also does additional work like defining what corruption is in law which aids practitioners to then they charge someone with official acts of corruption and it also speaks to whistleblower protections for the ICAC itself and speaks to other functions like public awareness on corruption so it's a wide-ranging bill in terms of the status of it so it was enacted after three parliamentary readings last year so the bill is now enacted by parliament and is still waiting a certification process so that requires the speaker of parliament to certify the bill as being a bill that is in effect a law of Papua New Guinea so that's still pending certification and then it will be obviously a law that's on the next the component that still needs to be done and is where TIPG's focus is at the moment for this year and the government is also seeing an interest in this really the formulation of regulation so you might have the law that tells you what this ICAC can and can't do but you really need guiding regulations to specify particularly on the powers of arrest investigation and prosecution that I mentioned but also on the independence of the body so key things like how does the ICAC investigate what are the steps that it will take how does it identify when is the matter to be investigated and when it decides to arrest and does it arrest or does it ask the police to arrest and how does that work when they go to prosecution and there's specifications in the bill about the office of the public prosecutor which is a separate constitutional office so they have to be protocols in place with existing bodies so viewers might be aware that the Ombudsman Commission of Papua New Guinea has concerns around how this new constitutional body the ICAC will interplay with these existing agencies so these regulations and policies are really vital to ensuring the success of the ICAC it can't just be the magic bullet it has to really work within an ecosystem of good governance so that's what TIPNG and others are looking at this year the operational operationalization of the ICAC so we have a bill that's now been enacted in parliament waiting for certification and we have about two years of operationalization we're working out regulations doing the recruitment securing an office getting a budget so we had allocation for the ICAC in the 2021 budget last year towards the operationalization of the ICAC so that's where most of the focus will be for 2021 in terms of the procedural matters but obviously as Rebecca mentioned there's always a lot of political uncertainty in Papua New Guinea and you can be guaranteed that the ICAC will definitely be not immune to the uncertainty that exists in the country yeah it sounds like a lot of work to do to really get it set up and stood up so just so I understand I mean the Ombudsman Commission I remember when it was established was sort of held up as a bit of a model for other countries of how to manage these issues in political life so does the OC become part of this new organization does it sort of becomes subject to the operation of ICAC or is that that's the question that we still have to I guess see the answers to yeah I'll use Patrick's disclaimer I'm not being a legal expert to be able to comment on constitutional matters but but I will say that the functions and the roles of the Ombudsman Commission have to be captured in these regulations as to how they work with the ICAC so if they're both entities that are able to do investigations and recommend prosecution to the office of the public prosecutor then they have to be regulations in place in the ICAC that speak to the existing regulations and the existing processes that are there within the Ombudsman Commission. From TIPNG's point of view we've always seen the Ombudsman Commission as a key actor within this role but that it's meant that it's much broader than just anti-corruption in the early pre-independence days the the Ombudsman Commission was proposed as a along the models of the Scandinavian Ombudsman's which is a public protector ensuring that public services deliver them they have a wide ambit of powers just beyond the leadership code and the anti-corruption work for instance they also have a mandate to request public information so freedom of information documents is also something that falls within the role of the Ombudsman Commission and it's a power that TIPNG would like to see more used so definitely they still have a lot of work to do it's not just one game the anti-corruption game there's still a lot of work to be done by all these partners and this is why regulations are important they really need to ensure that new legislative processes like whistle-going which also happened last year needs to be within the existing framework of anti-corruption work in public opinion. Gombari thanks for anyone who's interested to keep tabs on what's going on I can really recommend following TIPNG's Facebook page lots of their work is published there regularly including the recent launch of that Global Corruption Index and its rankings for PNG so if you're not already following that page I can highly recommend it. Patrick I had started to ask you in that small technical dropout we had there about well I guess western province is suddenly really prominent for a lot of us here in Australia people are talking about agreements that have been made between the western provincial government and a Chinese company for fisheries there's also been in the last couple of days reports of a massive project allegedly 38 billion dollars worth of spending on on Daru for a new city which I know PNG's government has said it doesn't really know anything about and Australia's government has also played down but can I ask you about the role of these types of agreements in politics in PNG memorandums of understanding I guess business deals they seem to be a lot of them do they lead to much and what role do they play in the political system in PNG? I guess western province is perhaps one of the most neglected provinces in in Shunkapa and Guinea and politicians the Chinese they deal with our political leaders they go straight to the top and you know convincing them about the benefits of engaging them in commercial enterprise so that's not a secret you know so political leaders usually have the last say in signing off to agreements I think one of the frustrating things about maybe I'm reading this on the social media as well as the way it is more an Australia Australian centric kind of way of looking at the project that's being very geostrategically in Australia's interest and how it is framed you know PNG is framed as a doorstep of a backyard when you know PNG is a sovereign independent state and it's going into agreement with another sovereign independent state in China for example so yeah we are these kinds of language may perhaps not be very good when you're framing something that is done in two countries Papua New Guinea may want to benefit out of it but the thing that perhaps Australian officials may want to with Papua New Guinea is to get Papua New Guinea to actually get the ownership of the project instead of giving it to the Chinese to manage and you know so it's always a win-win situation if Papua New Guinea is perhaps made to benefit out of the maximize out of its interest out of this particular project so so political leaders will have the say and people will you know Papua New Guinea citizens in western province felt neglected for decades since independence when something of this nature turns out perhaps the motivation to just agree to it will be there but how Papua New Guinea takes full ownership of it instead of you know questionable Chinese influence and passions and management I think that's where Australia and Papua New Guinea can agree on but Papua New Guinea takes ownership of it instead of the Chinese led initiative Rebecca can I ask you I mean you're covering national affairs day to day is it the sort of thing that's getting a lot of I guess traction of people talking about it in Port Moresby you know in journalistic political circles and not really it's not a topic here in Port Moresby a lot of people aren't talking about it yeah I think it's more from Australia's point of view it it isn't geographically the right place for Chinese to build city and manage so for P&G there's it's not really a topic there's not much consent about it but I did see on social media there was people from Zarao expression consent because in P&G there are a lot of customary landowners and so they're concerned about the land all that so that's just been consents about how Chinese is gonna acquire their land because the land in P&G is mostly owned by locals Thanks Rebecca now just a reminder to you at home if you're watching today's event you can send in a question yourself if you'd like to ask one of our panellists something you do that at the bottom of your screen click the Q&A button type in your question and we'll be coming to those shortly something I would love to get each of you just if you feel you can is talk about the legacy of Sir McCary Murata who passed away just before Christmas and it did seem to bring a lot of focus to the role of government and the role of policy in driving what government does you're buried do you get a sense that there is an appetite in the community to have some of those bigger questions looked out again about you know the role of government and what government does in terms of things like state-owned enterprises things like the way that the central bank is regulating things what was your sense and your as you watched the response of that in January this year? Yeah so for me Sir McCary was one of the prime ministers of Papua New Guinea and one was identified with a lot of public service reforms for us in transparency international I guess the biggest legacy that he left that we're still looking at improving is the organic law and the integrity of political parties and candidates so that's the olipac which is a policy which is a legislation that looks at increasing party affiliation and ensuring that there's party voting and also the integrity of party politics in Papua New Guinea which speaks to some of the issues that Patrick mentioned earlier about the the unpredictability of Papua New Guinea politics the party political mechanism is not as strong as we would like to see and the constitutional offices that were enacted after Sir McCary's intervention on the olipac legislation like the independent office of the parties candidates so looking at that work and that legacy and it also I guess prompts the question of what is the next generation being where the next people like Sir McCary in government and pursuing reforms and willing to use their political plan to look at agendas that might be very difficult and we have Bowdoin Bill with the recent outcome of the dialogue in Booker and what future that might be and other discussions are decentralization in the country and there's still very much a need for reform and also need to continue and build on some of the other reforms that were introduced by Sir McCary in his time so it's really a point of reflection but also looking at the credibility of decision making and leadership and I guess politics of Papua New Guinea in light of Sir McCary's passing. That's some really good point I think I might take the opportunity to dive into some of the questions because I can see some are coming through already and there's one that sort of relates to this that I can see Patrick has seen and it's from Johnson Ahupa who asks there are MPs who jump camps how do you explain the manoeuvring between political parties in PNG there's been a lot of it in the aftermath of what happened late last year so Patrick I might come to you first in response to that you know what drives that movement and then I might come back to you as well you and Barry about what happens next with Ollipack. The personality politics is very very strong on the floor of parliament the political parties are created around very influential dominant personalities in Westminster parliamentary systems the party is galvanized together by ideology the Papua New Guinea there is nothing ideological about political parties so it's just easily fragmented it can fragment at any time so the movement on the floor of parliament in that November sitting was very much reflective of that so Sen Basil I mean the Patrick White's moving up close to the opposition and much bulk of his membership of NA was in the government so there is really a personality driven kind of you know movement on the floor of parliament I comment mostly that there's no such thing as a political party system in Papua New Guinea we think we simply think that there's a political party system but it's not political parties are basically factions there are factions of convenience on the floor of parliament they can easily splinter or rebrand or you know say Sen Basil himself is somebody who's been jumping around from party to party there's a word they're using on social media called political prostitute to refer to people who jump from space to space or political parties to political parties they rebrand themselves but there's nothing really reflective of a political party system and until we get the political party system in order governed by ideology and party discipline and force perhaps there'll be some predictability on the floor of parliament members voting according to party resolutions and so on and so forth I think party politics is perhaps the the team that has created predictably So you and Barry I am the reform of Oli Pak responding to the the Supreme Court's ruling that effectively invalidated it I mean the the attempt in the past was to kind of lock politicians in and make parties you know a restrictive part of the political system in P&G do you think that's where reform might head again just looking for a different legal solution to that or do you think you know what what happens next with Oli Pak will be a little less restrictive Yeah so there's a bill that has been gazetted as of last year I think in December 2020 with about 40 44 amendments to the organic law so it will be similar to the iCAT process where we'll have to have three readings in parliament and there'll be two votes on the second reading and on the third reading so that's the process to pull through the amendments I haven't had time to look at the the legal implications and whether it remedies and the issues that are pointed up by the the Supreme Court in their decision but it's obviously something that we would like to see political parties are key means of ensuring accountability so in Papua New Guinea if you can't have that accountability of the person that you've elected you lose your basic mechanism of ensuring that your views are represented in parliament and you lack them so you will often see in Papua New Guinea to Mr Teiku's point there's often no evidence-based policymaking because you're not judged on the impact of your legislative prowess let's say it's really about the the clientelism that you can get with the public funds that are at your disposal which is not really how parties are supposed to operate it's not about securing the biggest part of the of the pipe for your electorate and it's more about the legislative reform which you would like to pursue and to to reflect on I guess is ideal and how to push through those reforms you really do need a strong political party system to be able to to master votes on the floor of parliament and moving beyond I guess the organic on the integrity of political parties and candidates which are now being visited and the amendments will be need to be looked at and there's also the reforms around the electoral process and I think we've just seen that that button's been pressed again on Yuan Bari he's obviously said something that he's not supposed to be talking about the internet has expired oh no Yuan Bari we had that problem again where you said something about political party reform and suddenly you were gone again do you want to pick up on that I probably should be mindful of my words but but just thing I said I was just mentioning about the electoral reforms which go um in in parallel with the party reforms so we also had the government in 2019 commenced a review of the electoral processes and as viewers would be able to 2022 elections are coming up so it's highly unlikely that there'll be electoral reform this year although stranger things have happened um but that's also a parallel process that we're looking at so on one track here the political parties and also the electoral reforms that have been introduced one we hope to ensure that there's better elections and also better um politically in the floor of parliament right thanks Yuan Bari and something I'm just going to flag hopefully we'll get time I'd like to come back and talk to you about freedom of information as well um I'll go to another question this one's from Amanda Ellis and she says png is one of the late the last great biodiversity hotspots on the planet is conservation on the political agenda at all Rebecca can I come to you on that one um conservation environment um I know it's a big factor at the moment in Morobi province people talking about um a proposed mind there what do you think does it get a lot of attention in the national conversation so we may have a problem with Rebecca's connection there as well so I will leave that oh no hang on I think we've got you back Rebecca can I hear you go ahead yeah I left Yuan Bari into the oh I think he yeah that's very good very definitely done all right Yuan Bari conservation environmental issues where do they rank in terms of what people are talking about in national affairs look so this comes again back to the point of legitimacy and decision making um so ensuring that the electorate's views are represented as the policy making decision and not not to tick all my boxes in this conversation but it also goes back to freedom of information which I alluded to earlier which is still a lot that TIP and you would like to see in which we're working with government to try and develop but if you have this access to the information around environmental impact assessments and ensure that there was a democratic process in the decision making then you would have more of a preservation of people's priorities which in this case would be the environment their well-being the ability to sustain themselves and you know with a country of 80 percent rural majority you would want to ensure that people's livelihoods are not impacted by budgetary considerations that that would be the ideal and that's the constitutional ideal that the transparency national would like to see in these processes we released a report in 2018 looking at the mining licensing process in the country and one of the key factors that we identified as being an underlying issue is the lack of proper public consultation with women with children with people that actually use the land and ensuring that these community groups that validate policy decisions are able to actually have those concerns of theirs and you know addressed by the government and then to just circle back all the way to the initial question about China and the concerns around that the business decision again this is a really a freedom of information issue when the first one was first received by the government the public this was in 2020 we should have had this publicly available they should have been disposed around it the benefits the the risks that are involved in the 2021 national budget so all these things are very much part of our whole and they're really looking at issues of legitimacy and process in country if we have people's priorities which are obviously environmental prioritized then there'll be a different discourse happening but if you don't have those mechanisms of accountability on both the parliamentarians and the actors are inflamed by citizens and then it becomes really difficult to have a democracy and if I can say this again thank you very thanks for that I'll jump across to Patrick on this too because I sort of reference what's going on in Morabie province at the moment and just for background there's the proposed Waifigolku goldmine outside lay in Morabie province and there's been a big dispute evolving between the national government and the provincial government about some of the environmental conditions for that project okay Patrick it looks like there is a really big split emerging there between the national government and the provincial government and there's a party dimension to it as well does that sort of suggest that there are some strengths starting to develop in the way political parties might align themselves around some of these issues Morabie province I think the the landowners to the predictor somehow have been made aware of the implications of this and this local grassroots mobilization of the environmental impact of pumping all this mind waste from the Waifigolku Waifigolku sits in the interior of the Morabie province and all the the waste will be shipped down to the sea floor in the coastal part of the Morabie province so to the credit of local NGOs and more educated Morabie and Morabian peoples they are creating awareness about the likely environmental impact of this so the the grassroots level is pushing actually their governor to act on you know listening to the to the sentiments of Morabian peoples in terms of the politics I was reading last night that in fact at the breakfast event James Morabie the prime minister has given an indication that the Waifigolku project will go ahead as as planned I'm assuming that they are going to resolve somehow and I think James Morabie's signal that that they won't perhaps be entertaining too much the deep sea tailing that was proposed earlier so how that was going to be that's going to be related though I made I'm not aware of it that they that James Morabie I think has given the indication that they will not entertain perhaps the deep sea tailing the idea that they initially uh proposed you that is definitely one of our things to watch in 2021 list uh so thanks for that Patrick I'll go to another question now from those of you watching remotely um this one is from Francis Waagare who asks could the presenters comment on social media's impact on information in PNG does it help keep tabs on government and public power um and also is fake news an issue and maybe Rebecca this might be one we can lob at you in the first instance um happy effect is social media and you you sort of exist in both worlds you're reporting for the mainstream press but you've also um built quite a following on social media what do you think it's doing and how is it a factor in um current affairs in PNG um social media has played a really big role um it's changed the way things are done in PNG comparing um PNG like from five years ago to now we have more um people actually taking part in decision maybe uh for example the the political impact last year there were there was um public opinion on social media and people were actually holding their members of parliament accountable you know they were asking MPs why are you still on this side or why are you crossing over like tell us why you're still there where you're moving so um it's great to see that through social media people are able to now take part in um decision making and that's that's just been like so many information out there people have extra information which is very important they are able to form their own opinions based on this um information and they are able to hold their leaders accountable so social media um has played a really big um role in almost everything that has happened recently including the political impacts the COVID-19 thing um there is involved like for every post information that's put up there's like five fake news on the other side okay but yeah social media has really changed the way things are done in PNG. Joanne Barry can I come to you on this I mean the the role of social media and bringing scrutiny to government are you seeing changes do you think do you think there is a greater demand as a result of people having access to these technologies? Yeah for sure I mean um it's filling up a gap in terms of legislation in the country um we don't have we have a constitutional right to access this information but no enabling laws under books that means if I write to the department of um uh environment and conservation to ask what the environmental impact assessment was for more of it they are under no obligation to provide it to me unless I'm locally impacted um so there's been a death of legislation which has led to a vacuum which social media has neatly filled but there's still that issue of legitimacy so I in this in this case the legitimacy of the information and the the motives behind providing it and this issue of what is the true evidentiary basis for any policy that's coming out and is it based on anything that's actually publicly available and that's been scrutinized or independently sourced um there's there's really lack of public data collection and a lot of people working in um development space in the country and practitioners public servants just don't have access to reliable data to make informed informed decisions I should say and that again speaks to the issue of there's no pressure being exerted to make sure that we have policies that informed on on sound data so it's it's really a half and half um yes it's it's really good to have social media there um but we'll still need to have that core backbone of um ICT infrastructure which I know has become really politicized in government recently between the geopolitical players that are out there but it's still something that property really needs the basic primary data to be able to make um valid decisions and this is something that we would like to see really we need we need a law for freedom of information in the country and that will empower journalists academics and geos to be able to take in this process on at least an equal footing in government at the moment we just happen to know about these things if they come out and if they politically at the advantage is to the person that's leaking the information um in last year at the beginning of the year we're all up in arms over the paladin scandal in monos and that information was leaked out and now it's just died out because there's been no subsequent follow-up information so your social media is useful it gets the the fire going but it can't sustain it and it can't sustain a democracy you really need to have that underlying process and legislation in place Patrick are you saying in a way that political players I guess leaders and parties are using social media are you saying it changed you're saying the way that it interacts with the political system becoming a big effector uh I don't necessarily see it from where I am uh these are episodic periods in which the facebook for facebook is of course the most popular form of social media platform uh of course there are 70 i'm trying to pick up there are 772 thousand uh current users of facebook they estimated from the internet world stats and in png currently uh there is still a very low percentage of uh uh users in terms of uh having a critical mass of people who will have a direct impact on politics uh and we also have a very important the basic uh interest fracture of collecting public opinion the measuring public opinion as a reaction to you know things that people read online or to social media platforms that is inexistent so I'll do we actually as going back to a mr juan barris uh comment I'll do you translate the social media the use of political messaging on social media platforms into actual action influencing legislation and voting behavior because all the other structures of uh public information is is missing like public opinion uh collection and understanding what issues matter to voters and to citizens and so on and so forth I think that's basically where I see the missing link uh with uh the rolling out of the internet and as more popular opinions become more media literate and understanding the role of social media in our globalized society perhaps we we can see we might see something different and how it impacts our politics but some of the recent incidents is like a 2011 political impasse and a 2016 student unrest and last year's political maneuvering but social media also played a part in lessening uh you know physical confrontation citizens would rather sit back and contribute ideas and mobilize online rather than physically tending to protest uh that would be a much more dangerous thing for citizens so a change of ideas is important online but there's a disconnect between how it's actually uh impetuous uh mobilizing to political action outside of social media thank you um I'll go to another question now this one's from Lydia Dimikari with a question for Rebecca so back to you Rebecca um being in the political space reporting on national issues being a woman taking on a challenging yet exciting role what have been your challenges in journalism and how can we the audience encourage women like you to take on this job of reporting on national issues um she also gives the example of Lianjirari is politics and leadership a dangerous playing field for women in PNG? Yeah I think I think it's um it is sometimes very challenging um but it's also rewarding um genuinely so far um to be able to be out there and to see things with more empathy and to get um yeah it's it's been great um but there's there's challenges um involved because PNG is a a country where men uh you know leaders and women aren't supposed to speak and all that but we're breaking traditions and we're coming out and women now have a voice and yeah good on you Rebecca I think that's a great response and hopefully you know through supporting your work um as a reader and as a follower on social media if people are interested we will um send an email out after today's events with a few links to things that we've discussed and we'll make sure there's a link to Rebecca's page there as well that you can follow along at um I'll go to another question now this one's from Elizabeth Brennan and I might send this one to you first Patrick it seems that district support grants DSIP are now firmly embedded in the operations of politicians and it's attractive questions about how well that money is being spent do you get the sense that district support grants are likely to continue and if not what would drive a change? District support grants seem to be the permanent fixer of prime ministers uh holding on to the loyalty of the deaf benches and members I don't think that it will go away in any time soon uh the use of the district service improvement program and that's from the district uh component of it the provincial is known as the provincial support improvement from PSIP provincial support improvement for the for the governors they receive the PSIP and the open members they receive the DSIP 10 million kina annually is very unrealistic for an open member of parliament to be implementing projects if you do a actual costing of what an electorate will need it will not be 10 million kina at the cost of infrastructure development alone would be in the hundreds of millions of kina uh so perhaps the the challenge is going back to public service and the finance department treasury and department of national planning to try to educate our lawmakers politicians people who go into parliament to look at other options instead of relying on the DSIP as the only source of revenue and the only motivation to be in government or to support the prime minister so I talk with a lot of my students and also communities in the in Papua New Guinea and you know they always you know look forward to the 10 million kina allocation that is guaranteed to the open members of parliament and I tell them that 10 million kina is not enough if you're trying to implement a project you have to self raise money for yourself a very good example uh rabble mp dr allen marat has been in the opposition for almost three terms of parliament now but he is able to generate uh income through you know a business sum of the rabble uh development authority so they're making money outside of the normal structure of the DSIP that is given to fund their own projects and uh the administration of the district in the rabble district so mp is to perhaps go beyond the idea of DSIP as the only source of revenue for the district I think this will take a lot of cultural change and education on the part of citizens as well thanks patrick um yoan barry is this something that ti has um had anything to say about about DSIPs and whether you know that's the model that png should be pursuing yeah look ideally in a uh an effective governance system you would want the decision makers not to also be the ones that spend the money um you would like to have those two functions separate and this discretionary funds um I think it's actually secretly and uh maybe sometimes publicly it's something that's been uh uh uh uh cursed for m mps because it ends up uh re re um emphasizing their role as service deliverers in the country um I've had conversations with members of parliament where they've secretly come and said you know people expect me to contribute for this and contribute for that and I think a fair few of them you know if there was a politically savvy move out there would want to get rid of the DSIP and just give it back to the role of public administrators and provincial administrators rather than carry the burden of you know being the ones that have to dish out the money um 10 million kina sounds like a lot to me patrick but uh I think it would be better if they had like these evidence-based approaches to actually dishing out the money um based on the priorities uh that have been again as this says from the data that's been uh collected but yeah I think ideally we would want to see a system where you have if you do give money to people that actually make decisions on the budget then you should really have high standards of accountability and proper audits of um how the money is spent but failing that the best thing would be to go and legislate and take out the ability for members of parliament to have discretionary funds that they can use um I think uh it's been something that's uh Maya Papua New Guinean politics of uh you know delayed the ability for members of parliament to actually focus on the primary constitutional role of legislating um rather than national development through services and projects I also like to make a point that we still have a parliament present but this button is getting you and Barry I've got you again you're a barrier just cut you off as you're about to say something again I was just speaking about the lack of women in parliament and saying that we have to bear in mind that the composition of parliament is really um undemocratic shall I say if we have 100% men and almost all of them have uh private business interests prior to entering politics apart from the good member from Robola I assume um so yeah if you look at the interests that they are serving and the and the the skills that they have unfortunately it looks that they're able to generate you know revenue and use it to spend on services because they happen to be businessmen so there it's cut you and Barry off again so clearly um we've lost you again you and Barry um politics so they enter the realm oh we've got you back just to finish that off that's good I don't you know I don't know what's going on at the ti office there we didn't watch out for that one for future events um look we're very close to time I thought I might just very quickly because one of the big contrasts between PNG and Australia this year is our different experiences of the pandemic and the impact that it's having on our lives obviously here in Australia it's been quite disruptive but some um pretty uh intense measures by the governments here have kept numbers fairly low PNG has had a number of cases um I know that there are concerns about the level of testing but I was just very keen perhaps for a personal observation for our panelists just the impact it's had on each of your lives and perhaps Rebecca could I come to you you've got the mask on there in the newsroom today obviously um where does COVID sit where what impact is it having on your lives and the people around you and what do you think the prospects are for the year ahead um currently we have about 900 I mean the total cases for PNG so far is 900 and that's been nine deaths so far there's lack of communication when it comes to COVID-19 we really don't there's lack of information that we really don't know what's happening um they just send us press statements and um it's been going on for a couple of months now it's um at the end um at the last day and in March when COVID first came to PNG and we had we had FOEs and we had lockdowns and that really had a really huge impact on PNG um we have a lot of businesses shutting down we a lot of people lost their jobs and there's still a lot of jobs so the economic impact has been really severe for PNG um PNG is slowly building itself up again the COVID restrictions have been um relaxed a bit but still there is a communication breakdown between um the authorities COVID-19 authorities and local media so I don't know how many active cases we have in PNG I just know that so far there has been 900 cases and they haven't told us yet how many out of this 900 are active cases so yeah that's COVID-19 Patrick I know the academic year has just started at UPNG is it disruptive is it you know is it a factor when you're dealing with students coming on onto campus the first time we had a very extended year of university studies last year going well into November and early December so it really affected the delivery of our subjects and courses our lectures we had to go online impact COVID-19 exposed some of the deficiencies with our investing in internet technology here at the university and therefore people are now operating for June through June we have to create a virtual learning platforms and of course students also unable to access our end sets and laptops so at the university level I think COVID-19 exposed a serious kind of areas for us to start investing in my own personal observation I think we have come to a stage as part of COVID-19 I believe the dimension of the mere mention of the word COVID perhaps just creates you know people are just trying to look at the post COVID-19 you know setting scenario that's why I think there's a lot of complacency you know faceless maskless faces entering shops perhaps in what must be their restriction but into going into the places like Kimber in the western Britain province totally chaotic people don't know what COVID-19 is there's misinformation coupled together with the COVID-19 the misperception here in Canada is that COVID-19 will not you know affect indigenous Melanesians it's only you know western industrialized homes should be affected by COVID-19 for all these different kinds of misconceptions they really fall into you know they're affected in as well when they're trying to deal with the awareness and vaccination yeah Patrick thanks for that COVID fatigue you and Barry everyone a bit tired of it over your way um what what do you think the year ahead holds for PNG dealing with the pandemic I think for civil society organizations in Papua New Guinea COVID-19 is I guess doubly difficult so first it affects the ability for proper consultation and because government has reduced the ability of consultation sticking consent of the government I'm ensuring that people are aware of processes because of the limits on how many people can comment it that's being an issue so it's something that we would like to maybe personally looking at more engagement with people and ability to travel and to have meetings and discussions around some of these issues of governance I think and also just zooming out a bit the the pandemic act that was passed last year in response to the COVID-19 crisis is still very much on the on the table and we currently are in an unended declared state of emergency as per the pandemic act so that's always a wildcard that's out there particularly bearing in mind that the national elections will be happening next year and one would assume that COVID-19 will still be even though we're 58 this year would still be an ongoing discussion next year and it's something of concern both the local instances of consultation by civil society but also the wider governance implications of having proper elections and ensuring that people out there able to express their views Uambari thank you and thank you all of our panelists I'm going to be very strict with the time here at the Lowy Institute if there's one thing we do we're very sticklers for time so Rebecca Uambari and Patrick thanks to each of you for being with us today I really appreciate your time it's a big commitment and the technology has served us pretty well I think there's the four of us g'day to all of you thanks to you watching remotely we hope you've enjoyed this discussion the latest in our Oz PNG network events program our sponsors for the event program BSP Bank South Pacific and Coca Cola Amatil thanks to both of them the Australia PNG network project gets funding and support from Australia's Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade thank you also to my colleagues here at the Lowy Institute who've made this possible my appreciation and look out for an email for us shortly from us shortly with some details of the things we've talked about today and we'll see you soon for the next Oz PNG network live event have a great day