 short I don't think a lot of people know this information if they did it'd be very off-putting. This is disgusting. What's up brother? How are you? We're doing debates on why aren't you why aren't you vegan? Why am I not vegan? Because I need to be able to eat fish and salmon. Oh you need it for necessity come tell me why tell me why come on. I eat chicken. Yeah. I don't buy chicken and all other animals I don't eat it. So where do you eat chicken from? Chicken? Someone else cooks it for you? Yeah, yeah. That's the only time I eat chicken. But the only meat I buy is fish. Okay and do you think fish feel pain? Do you think fish suffer? I don't think they know it's happening to them. I think they feel it, but I don't think they know it's happening to them. So is that good or bad? If they suffer and they don't understand what's happening to them isn't that worse? Wouldn't that make you suffer more? Probably, but I need to be able to eat fish. I can't not eat fish. You think you'll die? You'll die? Yeah, I can't just eat vegetables. What do you think I just eat vegetables? Do you think I just eat vegetables? So do you eat meat? No. So what do you eat then? Vegan burgers, burritos and vegan pizza and vegan cheese and vegan ice cream vegan whatever I want. Anything you eat I can eat vegan. Why did you become vegan? I became a vegan because I didn't want to be a hypocrite because I cared like for dogs and cats and animals like those, but I had a piece of a cow on my plate and I felt like a hypocrite because I would never hurt an animal myself but I was paying other people to do it and the animals didn't do anything wrong to me and I had enemies that I would never treat the way animals are treated just so I could eat them. You know what I mean? So if I wouldn't do it to my worst enemy why would I do it to these innocent animals including fish? With me it's the fact that I've grown up eating meat so it's like right now for me to stop eating meat and eat vegetables would be like that'd be crazy. It sounds crazy in your head. That'd be crazy. I think like if I grew up just on vegetables and I was taught these things I think it would be different. I was eating meat for 26 years. I don't see it as like I'm going to get bad karma if I eat meat because they're reliable. Do you believe in karma? Yeah I do but... Why do you think it applies to animals? What do you mean? And even think about it. So he believes in karma was to stop eating meat. Yeah. The world will just be full of animals running around like they'll keep reproducing. Do you eat meat to keep the numbers down? No I don't. I'm just saying. Okay. That would happen. No it wouldn't. Because what happens in ecosystems is they find their natural balance. The chickens that you eat they don't exist in nature. They're selectively bred human created chickens. Are they serious? Yeah the chickens that people eat they're selectively bred to produce a bunch of flesh on their bones. They can't hold themselves up and they... I know like salmon and prawns is what I eat. Yeah but salmon will never be bad. What do you think the salmon feels when they get hooked in the face and dragged out of the water? I don't know. The salmon is not human. The salmon hasn't got... It might have feelings but I don't have feelings like a human and it's not... They don't have to. It's not the dominating predator. Are you a predator bro? To the animals that I'm eating then I am. Yeah but do you ever kill the fish yourself? No I don't but... That's not a really predator of you though bro. Here's what it is. I'm saying I don't eat like pork and stuff like that. You don't eat pigs? I don't eat pigs. I rarely eat chicken. What about cows? You eat cows? I would say no because it's so rare. And what about like you don't eat lambs? You don't eat lambs? No. Just fishing eggs? Yeah. You know about the egg industry? Do you know what happens to those hens? No. I mean like I know I know all companies in the world they do something bad. I know that. I know that's a fact. I don't want them to but I'm not there. I can't stop them. I can't go to a farm and say oh do this this way. But you could you could say I don't want to pay for it because it's against my values. I'm saying like in the egg industry. The animals gonna die. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah they're gonna die but that doesn't mean we should torture them and kill them. I feel like if the animal had the same abilities as a human it would be a different story. They do. They do have the same abilities but not the same but not equal but they feel pain and they suffer and they don't want to die. Well like let's say a fish could kill a human and eat a human like and it was like it wouldn't die if it ate a human and it would fill the fish up. The fish would probably do it. The fish would probably do it. Yeah but cows are bigger than us. They don't eat us. And just because let's just say an animal would do something doesn't mean that we should copy their behaviour. I don't know. It's what it is. I eat fish. I eat fish and eggs and I don't think I'll ever stop you. You don't think you'll ever stop? Would you watch a movie then? A documentary on it? I've seen them. I've seen them. I've seen them. What did you what have you seen? I've seen Seaspiracy. You've seen Seaspiracy? Yeah that was quite shocking. Did that make you want to not eat fish? It made me want to not eat fish but like I don't know. I really enjoy eating meat. I don't enjoy eating fish but I also love eating like vegan food as well. So I'm not too bothered. I have gone vegan before like for a month. Oh really? But I'd never make it alive so I'll probably have more of like a healthier diet. Why was it difficult? Because like alright I'll see you soon. So you want to sit down with me? Come on, don't be shy. Because I really enjoy eating meat and like eggs for breakfast and stuff. So it was hard but I guess I just had like granola and like do you know Oatly? Yeah. Like it's like yogurt. It was hard because that's just not something I'm used to. But I do eat like vegan food because I'm from Uganda so we have a lot of like you know vegan food. So I enjoyed it. What is a Ugandan staple? Isn't it cornmeal? Or they have lots of like sweet potatoes or what do they have? Yams? We have like this like banana called Matauke and then we have like beans like it's good. It is really nice food. There's a lot of like plant based food. Yeah of course there's a lot of plant based stuff. Like if you're from the village and you can't afford meat then you're going to be having vegan food anyway. Yeah yeah yeah of course. So why did you try to go vegan? I always do the spiritual reasons and you know what the crazy thing is when I did it I felt a lot better. I had more energy. It was just hard to maintain. It's not exactly cheap either. I can't lie to you like trying to get good vegan food. It's not cheap. Okay. So it wasn't cheap when you tried to do it. Yeah. When did you try to do this? January. This January? Yeah. That's interesting. So you did it for spiritual reasons. Do you think there's some negative energy attached to eating the bodies of animals that have died in slaughterhouses? No. I'm just doing it for reasons because obviously on Christians we're supposed to like fast. We're supposed to like give up certain foods and stuff so we'll be able to do that. Like it's a sacrifice but it's not easy but you get like you reap the benefits. But a lot of the stuff like that's that God has made is better for you compared to all like the unhealthy food like all like the meat and stuff like. Yeah but you know the animals that people eat if you believe in the Creator are not created by God. What do you mean by that? The animals that people predominantly eat are human created. Like please give me an example. So there was originally like wild animals and humans enslaved them, dominated them and then started to selectively breed them with each other to produce whatever product outcome they wanted from them. So like for hens they would selectively breed them to produce more eggs for chickens. In the meat industry they selectively bred them with other chickens to become like Frankenstein chickens to produce all of this meat really really quickly and they feed them with antibiotics to make them grow quicker. In the dairy industry they are selectively bred to produce more milk so they breed so that if they get good milk producers they just keep breeding them together over generations until they're like really really productive. So like these animals are just human selected over time to be meat machines or milk machines or egg machines you know. What about you know the people in like third world countries that only have like let's say like animals around them like should they just go vegan if they don't have anything else to eat? So I don't feel comfortable with someone in a survival situation telling them to starve which is why I do my debates here in the UK actually with people because I know people in the UK they do have a choice you know. If someone was in a survival situation they didn't have a choice and they killed a native fish it's a different situation actually it's much different so should that person go vegan? Well I don't think they have the choice to so. I have a question for you why is it you feel like people wouldn't want to be vegan? Is it the sacrifice or do you feel like the vegan community are positive with spreading their message? The messenger matters a bit but people will say well I would go vegan but that person was rude to me or they're not positive or their movement's not positive. I think that's usually an excuse because they don't actually want to because they habitually eat meat. They prefer the taste and it's inconvenient for them to change. The animals' lives and suffering does not on the scale weigh enough for them to change their lifestyle. That's what I think and then what happens is they begin to look for ways out of it and excuses out of it. That's what I see most commonly. It's hard to explain what goes on to animals in a positive way. Do it, yeah. It's like you explain the worst suffering and violence that happens on earth on the mass scale. There's no industry, there's been no tragedy that has caused as many deaths as meat, dairy and egg industries. Nothing comes close. Are you sure? Let me just give you the numbers. At this point 80 billion land animals each year and between 1 and 3 trillion marine animals each year. I think it's in around four weeks. Yeah. We kill more non-human animals than the amount of human beings that have ever existed in history. There is nothing on earth that could... Even if you make the argument that a human suffers much more than a chicken. A human suffers much more than a fish because we have a deeper experience. Even if you were to use that logic, the amount of animals that are being killed is so great, so vast that the animals would have multiplied that suffering a long time ago. We don't do anything else that causes this much suffering and killing. I can't believe that. That's crazy. I think it's good to educate people though about these things. You see with the food industry how the packets and I have the labels of chemicals and stuff and they won't actually put everything else on there. Even with vegan food, what's the state of all the chemicals? Is it actually good for you? Because that's like my little hindrance because if... I don't know what I'm actually eating. Do you get what I'm saying? I get what you're saying. So would you not recommend just being a raw vegan? No. Why is that? I would say a lot of raw food is really good and it makes you feel really good and it's full of fiber and nutrients and fiber chemicals and really good to be a lot of raw. I just don't think it's doable. You think so? If I want to get a raw meal right now, I have to go to Tesco, get some berries and get some bananas but right now if I want a tofu noodle soup, I can go there. If I want a burger, I can go there. If I'm not spent, so I can get a sandwich. That's true. But if you restrict yourself as a vegan, then you've got to go back to... I need a burger and go back to eating animals. Eat whatever you want as a vegan as long as you're not eating the animals and the animal products. So if you want a burger, if you want a vegan chocolate, if you want an ice cream, good but I still think you should look after yourself with lots of fruits and vegetables. 100%. So you were saying like, what's in like a vegan burger kind of thing? Do you know what's in there? How do you know it's healthy kind of thing? Yeah, because like I said, the packaging, they'll be like, oh, this and this and this stuff isn't it but they're not going to 100% tell you what's on there. So how do I know they're not doing that the same vegan food? Yeah, true. When you eat fish, right? Yeah. Let me give you an example here in the animal products. Okay, so when you're eating fish, you're not just eating the fish. Like you're eating everything that fish ate in their environment. So there's something called bioaccumulation. Oh yeah, I know that. You know about it? Yeah, I learnt in school. So yeah, the big fish eats a little fish and then all that mercury, the PCBs, I don't know the chemicals, we'll put them up here somewhere. But they will accumulate in that fish over time. 100%. The human comes and eats that fish and they accumulate in you. And the same is true of the land animals, so the chickens and the pigs and the cows because they're eating the pesticide-laden, you know, plants and that accumulates in them. You're better off eating pesticide plants yourself because you're only going to eat that one portion. The animals are eating it over their life and it's accumulating in their body with the antibiotics and things like this. Oh really? Yeah. So you don't see that on a meat package. No, of course not. Yeah. But with vegan food, processed vegan food is not healthy for you. What is processed vegan food like chips? Like chips, potatoes, fried in oil, that's not too bad. But like, you know, if you're getting like a Burger King vegan nuggets, for example. Oh, okay, no, no, yeah, yeah. I'll eat them, but I know they're not healthy. Of course not. I eat them because I want something greasy and salty and I want it now, you know. That's why I go and get a vegan burger because I want a vegan burger. I don't go, ah, I'm trying to be healthy. I'm going to go get a vegan burger. Better be healthy. No, I eat a burger for pleasure. Exactly. I just don't think my pleasure is enough to justify animals being butchered and killed. And for my health, I go for the whole food plants, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like with no packet on there. No packaging on there. So it's just like, are there strawberries? Yeah. So that's beans. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? And how long have you been spreading this message for? For nearly nine years. Nine years? Around the country or have you? So when as soon as I went vegan, I started telling everyone about it. So I was like, at first it was health, but then I started, I've seen a great activist called Gary Urofsky, who's a fantastic animal rights activist. And he's talking about all the things that happen to animals and the injustice of it, you know, and you know, it was the injustice of it that really got to me because they're voiceless. They, you know, they do have, they do make sounds that they can't speak for themselves in society. You know what I mean? Human beings can form coalitions and have other humans defend them. Yeah. But who's going to defend the chickens from us? The chickens can't. They've got no one. But like, wouldn't you say like an argument is just a chicken like, they're not going to live long anyway? Obviously like, that's a very, you know, kind of wicked thing to say. I don't really agree with it, but like, I do feel like a lot of people would just say that. I know. Do you get what I mean? And people do do that with the lives of chickens. They say, oh, it's only a bird. Like, who cares? You know, and I like nuggets. But to that chicken. Yeah. Because when you look at it from human perspective, you will go, ah, from my perspective, that's just the chicken. But what I ask people to do is like, flip it and look at it from the chicken's perspective. Like that's the only existence they have. And they didn't even ask to exist. Yeah. They didn't ask to exist. They were forced into existence, into a factory farm, and then they're forced into a slaughterhouse to die. I don't even know the full industry. I can't lie to you. Like, I think I've seen a few videos, but I don't know, like, the extent of, like, what is going down. Do you know? Yeah. Do you like to explain? My words can explain it. But actually, video footage explains it much better. So, I mean, I can show you a little bit of video footage if you wanted to. Yeah, go ahead. So, like, I'm going to just flick through for you so you get an idea. Because this goes for 40 minutes. Oh yeah. What about the propaganda? Like, green grass. And this is what people see. Yeah. You know, you see commercials, green grass, and happy animals, and then they'll show you on the plate. Yeah. They don't show you the in-between part. These are called barrowing crates. And this is where they give birth to their young. And they stay in these cages for up to five weeks. Five weeks. But they'll be... This is where they buy the cages and they go insane in here. This is so insane. It's why they're weaning in their young. And these are mothers. See, the piglets get stuck under here. Oh my goodness. This is so sad. These are dead piles. Are we supposed to eat them or not? No, no, they're just discarded. Oh. They're left out the front. At the front? Just at the front of the farm. Or at the back of the farm. This isn't even hygienic. You'll see this very often inside. That's a baby. Yeah. This is very common. I've been in these farms too. How did you find them? They're everywhere. You just look on Google Earth and you can see big long sheds with feeders in them. And there are the pig sheds, chicken sheds or turkey sheds. They're everywhere in the UK. There's a sadness in her eyes. It's actually heartbreaking. The antibiotics, they feed to them. Because they have to feed them antibiotics so they get so sick in there. Wait, why do you have to... Oh, because of how small it is. They get sick because of the contained space and all the disease in there. And feces everywhere. See these slats? They let the feces drop in. Yeah. But that's pigs and they clip their tails. Snip their tails off without anesthetic and clip their teeth down. And they thump the piglets on the ground, on the concrete to kill them or hit them with a bar. I don't know if I can watch this. It's too far away. Yeah. They thump them to kill them because they might not grow fast enough or they might be sick. But it's actually Red Tracta approve this as a euthanasia method. I want to show you this. Wait, is that a pig? Is that a pig? They're eating a dead pig. The pigs are eating themselves. This pig has died and they're eating... It's called cannibalism. It happens in factory farms all the time. This is disgusting. This is a gas chamber. Gas chamber? Oh, just like they're being sprayed with gas. They're being suffocated. Yeah, they're going into a dungeon filled with gas. CO2 gas. This method of slaughter is used for U.S. supermarkets. Yeah. Supermarkets? Yeah. 86% of pigs in England and Wales are killed in gas chambers. Oh, goodness. This is wicked. But that's pigs. Dairy industries. Yeah, let's have a look at the dairy industry. So they force her into pregnancy. Force? They stick it... It's actually quite perverted what they do. They ejaculate a bull to get the semen out of him. They sometimes use a big electro-ejaculate. It's like a big dildo thing and it forces the bull to ejaculate and they take his semen and then they get the female and they stick their entire arm in her anus to hold her cervix and then they get the bull semen with a little pipette and they stick it into her vagina to inseminate her and she has a nine month pregnancy. So this is him doing it. Are they constantly pregnant? So this is him doing the insemination thing. He's inside of her anus. It's incredibly uncomfortable for them and so she'll have a nine month pregnancy and then she give birth right. Yeah. And then she's producing milk. Oh, yeah. Because otherwise how's she going to produce milk? She's going to have a baby, don't she? Yeah. Is that the baby? Yeah. They take him away? They separate him so they don't drink the milk. The farmers will say it's for their own good in case the cow tramples the calf. What? It's a lie. The baby. Yeah. They take him away. And this is standard practice. Standard? Standard. Across the board. They always take him away from their mum and there's a study they did on cows and they feel an emotional pain that's similar to like a physical pain. So they both experience trauma, trauma of the cow and their baby because they're very maternal animals and they keep the females in these hutches here. Are they going to see them again? No. They don't see their mums again. Maybe a backyard farm here in Nehrmite but not in the industrial dairy industry. But I don't see why they have to separate them. Because they'll drink the milk. They've got to sell the product. So if you want milk and cheese and yogurt they can't let the calf drink that milk, can they? So where's the calf going? So female calves will go on to, they either make up the dairy herd so they'll keep them in the hutches separate and then they'll grow them until they're of age to be inseminated themselves and they'll become a mother, really young and get their calf taken. And then they'll have that cycle happen to them as well and it happens about three or four carvings. They have their calf taken three or four times and then they get slaughtered for beef. Is that one pregnant? It's a dairy cow. Oh no. A lot of dairy cows are slaughtered while still pregnant. Whilst pregnant? They can be, yeah. I forgot the statistic. We'll put it up here on the screen. There's a lot. And they cut the little fetus out of them as well in the slaughterhouse. That's a dairy industry. The male calves can be shot on the farm. Shot? Because they don't produce milk, male calves. Are they not meat then? A lot of them are too scrawny. The males? So the male dairy breed calves can be shot on the farm on their first day of life. But that's being outlawed at the end of this year. Otherwise they get raised for veal or beef. Or what they can use is a specific type of semen from a beef cow and they'll impregnate that into the dairy cow so that she produces a beef cow. And then they get the milk out of her and then a calf will be basically raised for beef and killed for burgers. It's like they're just like slaves. Yeah, they are slaves. And this is her, these are called hobbles. Yeah. And she's like splintering her legs open because she's just, they're just curing this big udder around and they get like lameness, they get like injuries and, you know, they get abused all the time. Abused? Yeah. Why are they getting abused? They get abused because the farmers just, they get frustrated with them. They don't do what they want. But do you think like this industry, there was good farmers, would it be better or would you not think it would make a difference? I think it's better if the farmers are better. Of course. Then someone who's just constantly bashing them, like you said, they're like slaves, right? You prefer a slave didn't get whipped 12 times and only got whipped three times. But you know, I'd prefer they weren't enslaved at all. Yeah. And that's what being vegan is, it's saying we don't want animals to be subjugated and treated as property at all. If we're going to have animals, it's to care for them, it's to protect them like they do. To love them and care for them and let them be themselves and not to take something from them. Because we're only doing this, they're only doing this to the animals because people want to eat them, eat the cheese. They're this meeting of demand and all these people out here, they're the demand. And the farmers are going, okay, we'll supply you and this is what we're going to do to the animals for you on your behalf. You know, it's crazy. Like the things that we've just discussed, the video you just shared with me, I don't think a lot of people know this information because if they did know this, it'd be very off-putting. Yeah. But that's why they market to people. That's why they spread the propaganda. It's why you only ever see... Propaganda. Propaganda is like marketing, it's like you see the green grasses, the happy animals and then you see the meat. But they don't show you this. Yeah, they can't. Because these are all customers to them. You know what I mean? So they have like Red Tractor and RSPCA assured and all of these humane labels and free range and all this stuff. Do you agree with those? No. Why don't you agree with the RSPCA or like PETA and all them ones? So RSPCA are not like PETA. PETA are a vegan organization. RSPCA are not a vegan organization. Yeah, so you can go into the supermarket and you can buy a meat that has an RSPCA label on it. Don't you think that's just a bit... doesn't really make any sense? No. If they really cared about animals, you wouldn't want to see them chopped up and eaten. But they'll say, oh it's because our farming practices are better. But if you care about animals you don't want them to be slaughtered either. You know what I mean? The majority about like the main topic out all of this is money. It is money because they're making so much money. Like, I know I've even spoken to people like would you ever be... they've asked me would you be vegan but I've done it but would I do it a long time? Probably not. But if I was to do it, I'd start cutting out red meat, then I'd start cutting out like chicken, then I'd start cutting out fish and I'd like alternatives. It's just difficult. And I don't know if it's like student-friendly being vegan. I don't think it's like a cheap decision. How is it a cheap... how can it be a cheap decision? It can be cheap and you're right. This all happens because of money and the money that you give them and that's why like we were talking about supply and demand before. But to be vegan on a budget is actually quite easy actually because the cheapest foods in the supermarket by far are the bread, the grains, the beans, the rice. Rice is the cheapest food per calorie on earth really. So all of your whole foods, the healthy foods that are good for you actually are the cheapest unless you're going to get some fancy berries and stuff. Yeah. But like whole grains, all the... you talk about your Gandham food. Like all of those to make the plant-based your Gandham food. That's all cheapest food in the supermarket. When you talk about like okay I'm going to go get a fancy pre-made vegan sandwich from M&S. Yeah. That's going to be like four quid or something. Yeah. But for four quid you could do like a quarter of a week shopping. You can get oats and you can get frozen berries and you can get pasta and you can get pasta sauce and you can get lentils to put in the pasta sauce. You can get this stuff called TVP it's a textured vegetable protein and you can rehydrate it and it's like mints. So there's ways of doing vegan super cheap. It's actually when you go and get a lamb people go and buy a lamb chop or whatever that's expensive food. I'm really thinking about what you've just said like I didn't realize you could do it on a budget. I've got a YouTube video called vegan on a budget. Yeah. Extreme budget or something. Yeah. I went to the test going like 20 quid or something. I come back and I've cooked like a week's worth of food because you get lentils right like red lentils and you can make a big curry out of it. Potatoes and it's super healthy. Yeah. Full of iron and fiber. Yeah. And then you get like a little bit of vegan like cheese or whatever like you know you get a little bit of this like vegan ice cream vegan this thing. Vegan cheese is not like I'm sorry that's the one thing I can't I don't like vegan cheese is really disgusted but the vegan like dairy ice cream all that sort of stuff is nice but the cheese I'm still not happy with it. Have you tried applewood? Applewood no. Try that. But I don't want to be deceived. I look around for the ones I like because I've been vegan for so long and I just won't eat I won't eat anything comes from an animal like I just out of my principles I won't do it like I won't I won't deliberately harm you know a child a human a cat a dog if I know that someone's going to be harmed deliberately because of it I won't eat it. This here is this will help you what's your YouTube restaurant and your videos on there I made this documentary here and this is this is the one I showed you Land of Hope and Glory and here's some little food swaps tofu right if you like eggs if you love eggs if you scramble it in the morning you scramble tofu and you get it's called black salt kalam namak or something like this but it's got an egg taste and you sprinkle it on the tofu and it tastes like eggs and this here is the best app happy cow find vegan restaurants wherever you are and you can always come my name is Ida Ida and you Joey nice to meet you it was really nice having a discussion with you I really love talking to you thank you you're just amazing and I'm sure everyone's got to love you thank you good talking to you see ya