 So yeah, we're recording and I'm I might do some editing in the beginning and the end something like that, but maybe I'll start with So we haven't talked for almost two years and You're you've gone through a rebrand since now. Yes, and wisdom printers the Facebook group For anyone watching and listening to this if you're not part of wisdom earners. I tell everyone to go join everyone who's like like-minded like heart wants to grow a mindful business And so that's grown from I remember when I first joined I think you already maybe over a thousand or something like that and then now As of today, it's over 15,000 members and What's impressive to me is that I think what's wonderful about what you've done is that you've diligently Cultivated that community so that it's not another large Facebook group where people go and just You know share links all day long like hey check out my blog post check out mine But it's a it's a group where people feel safe to ask Vulnerable questions as they grow there as they work on their business and as they come across challenges and also when they have Successes to share their updates And so that's what I love. That's why I keep sending people there. I'm like, okay If you have a question about building a business Go there. I mean if you haven't asked them when the printers there, you should bet you should be asking that so I So I mean so many questions for you about that is I've seen so many other people try to build an online community. I Myself have tried as well and These things have petered out for most online groups. I've been part of and and for my own as well What have and you're I mean you are showing up just about every day there and What do you think makes your process different? Then then other groups that seem to peter out Hmm Some of it Let me just say George. It's great to hang out with you Two years is too long. Let's not wait two years till next time. Yeah Some of it is just luck Yeah, in terms of it was a it was a tribe that wanted to find each other There was there was a place there's a gathering space that wanted to happen in this in this conscious business conscious entrepreneur a conversation There are great communities of people who are doing that work But most of them are behind paywalls and then I wanted to make it open source And I know you're a big fan of that make in Creating resources that people can access wherever they are, you know, one of our members I remember meeting one of our members he lives in a small village in Pakistan He has two hours of electricity a day and they never know quite which two hours Wow So we wanted to create a Facebook community that not Facebook We didn't originally know where we wanted to do we just knew that Diversity and inclusion is part of the core values of wisdom prayers Yes, and we wanted to find a way it felt to us that there was a certain level who were born at wisdom 2.0 A conference that's had a lot of traction and has gotten some flak For being a privileged based community, you know, and just for anybody who happens to be participating in this wisdom 2.0 if I can try to describe it. It's It's a what I saw it from it. It's it's really a corporate Event or it's an event for corporate leaders Who want to bring more mindfulness to their business practices? Is that right? How would you with that is that accurate? It's grown beyond that But that was certainly the person that's soaring that the founder wisdom 2.0 is a guy named soaring board hammer Who I've been friends with for a long time. Yeah, and yeah Soaring was thinking about a project manager at Facebook or a coder at Google not just the upper level executives Yes, certainly if you work at Google, it's a little bit of a different Experience to be in the world and somebody who lives in Pakistan and a village that only gets two hours of electricity a day Sort of is not thinking of the person who lives in Pakistan or somebody who's in Africa or even somebody who's A new solo printer launching a business or somebody who's moderately successful. He was thinking of You know that the techerati I've heard it come Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and it's yeah, like you said, it's grown beyond that. It's seems quite successful Wisdompreneurs the group that you've founded came out of was it a meeting there like a session We've done a break when soaring founded wisdom 2.0. He had These leaders these particular it was very much the intersection of wisdom and technology. That's the 2.0 part of the brand Yes, and What he didn't expect is that a lot I used to be I'm a friend of his and then I worked for soaring for a while I was the director of social media so I Took my job to be one part sort of sharing of information but also one part to be like community manager like who's here What why are you here? You know what he interested and I Myself and other people would go around and like who's at the conference on you know On social media if we were having a conversation or if there was a holiday party like just who's in the room? And what we found is that More than half of the people who are coming to wisdom 2.0 Were solo printers and small startups somebody who had a wearable that was using mindfulness to help people with anxiety symptoms Or somebody's bringing yoga into corporation small Organizations or solo printers that you know wanted to connect and didn't know where else to go And that was not who was on the main stage the main stage for the co-founders Artola beautiful beautiful people but that tribe wanted to connect and we did a breakout session in February of 2013 Yeah called call the wisdompreneurs and the rest is sort of history So there are some things we've done to be very intentional about the space and our core values and our promotion policy There's some things we've done that work But part of it George is just having a brand that in making it open source that people were red They were looking to connect and you just happen to create a space to do it at the right time if I could Share my perspective on why I think it's grown so well Not only in terms of size, but the depth is I think that wisdompreneurs The word the name is a great one. So I think that helps people to identify that. Oh, I do branding for a living So that came yeah, I yeah, yeah, so this is actually I feel like has always been one of my one of my weaknesses And and actually I've kind of owned the fact that you know what I don't have to be great at everything You know, it's like I'm gonna let other people be great at branding or for people to them and I'll be good at what I'm what I'm good at, you know, so wisdompreneurs great brand Secondly is I think It's great that you started with some in-person connectivity So there was a feeling of camaraderie there when the group started and I don't I mean, I don't think that's a requirement For starting an effective online group because I think that But I do think that there need to be some Initial relationships between The the first people there You know, and even if it's just online friends and then coming together, let's form a group I'll talk about this thing and see if it grows But the third thing I would say is that is your consistency I've noticed and showing up in the group And I know you're gonna be a modest your modest person So you probably won't say this so I'm gonna say it for you is that I think you are so consistent in being there just about every day and You post things that are interesting conversation starters You kind of allow people to show up With their opinions their lessons learned their They're kind of vulnerable questions and things like that so I think that makes it really special and I think that as a result people got people. Oh, I can always go to wisdompreneurs There's always some interesting conversation happening there that where people are really sharing of themselves and trying to help each other out But certainly the intent one of our core values for wisdompreneurs is community. Yeah, it's not about again, they're a great Leaders in the marketing realm if you want to do video marketing There's certain people you want to go and you want to check out their system or you want to do Facebook or LinkedIn Sales funnels. There's there's so many. There's so much expertise out there Yeah, we had a different intent what we were trying to do is create a circle of where the people who are going to Look at different pieces of creating a business and in the realities of you know This kind of thing where I'm sitting in Santa Fe, New Mexico and you're in the Bay Area And here we are having a heartfelt conversation Interesting times we live in yeah, and how do you create a business that has the kind of depth that you're talking about? We all are going to have different approaches to how we grow our business what we do It's a little bit like in the spiritual world, you know There's a lot of ways to meditate and there's a lot of ways to pray You know roomy said there's many ways to kneel and kiss the ground It's one of my favorite poem one of my favorite lines In all the world of poetry we wanted to create a place that was bigger than any one system It's not a Buddhist community. We're not a Contemplative Christian tradition or a Native American spirituality, you know community the same with the Processes of growing a business and many ways to do it on the entrepreneur end of things too We wanted to create a circle where people who were thinking about that and thinking about How to create right livelihood and the complexities of the modern conversation Modern economy could come together and have conversations, right? That's really that was our intent and in that circle Some people were looking they were hungry for that circle and didn't know where to go And then we came along and just said, you know, we're not gonna like Offer you you'll come to this group and then well, you know by our Facebook ads program We don't have a Facebook yeah, or anything like it, right? Yeah so so that it was just Yeah, bringing forth the circle that some people were really hungry for at the right time and you know, it's been It's only been three years from zero to 15,000 in three years, and that's all been very part-time I don't Neither myself or anybody else makes the full-time livelihood doing wisdom prayer as a matter of fact wasn't prayers It's just barely starting to generate any revenue at all. It's a very small portion of where Any of my money comes from my money comes from doing branding and marketing. Yeah That's the that's the labor. It's a labor of love and I think that is where projects Have the most well, it's has the most heart and I think people feel that People feel like I know there's been conversation and whisperers about the word funnel, right? I haven't been privy to all that but I actually heard about it from from from someone else You when you go to wisdompreneurs, you're not entering a sales funnel Yeah, I mean to be totally transparent. I do branding and marketing consulting for wisdom entrepreneurs So it's not like it's not a mentor mind talks about enlighten self-interest, right? That's that's a frame that means something to me It's not totally because because I also see this George I see people who are spiritual entrepreneur giving giving giving giving burn themselves out. Yeah. Yeah One of the fundamental practices that I teach my clients is that marketing is just steady loving presence in the market Just go find your we'll talk about all that you could do that video You could do that say that again steady steady marketing is just steady loving presence in the market Yeah, that's why you know to do You know, we need to figure out your particular way of doing that without an integrity where your presence is really felt Yeah, so I'm you know, I'm a solopreneur, you know I get help occasionally on my business but basically I'm a solopreneur like you my Website that I make my living from is paulsellehsler.com. Here's a George count.com, right? We need to be visible in some way and you're doing this beautiful thing with video You know just talking before we turn the recording on of bringing your podcasting back and you're writing blog posts You're really really good at being visible like hey you crank out content like I don't know how you do it You crank out so My gosh, it's I mean just like that's that same question. I was a how do you how do you manage this community? I think that's the key is that you and I and each person who who is out there lovingly building their business has their unique strength and We don't all have to be paulsellehsler or George cow or any any other person that you're learning from you know It's like and I think you I'm especially with branding I bet you are having this kind of conversation with your clients is your helping your your part of your job is to observe I imagine and to Shed shed light your own insight into all this is what makes you so special and This is what it comes so naturally to you that you don't even notice it That is what I think we need to see in each other. So when you ask me and George, how do you create so content? I'm like, oh really do I My commitment is once a week and you see a really like five I would say now in the past three weeks particularly It's now the rhythm is now like five videos Five times more content than me and like my last video which has done really well It's worth like the last video. I shot was I'm crunching the numbers I got three times more new prospects than when I block and I used to do long-form blocks 2000 words really, you know, and now it's like wow this two and a half minute videos getting three times And it didn't take me some of my globs take me 15. Oh, of course, right? Really go deep, right? Yeah, and I was like, oh my god. That's amazing, right? So but but I shot that two and a half minute videos seven times before I was like, all right now It's ready right like I don't you know, I have to content and I'm willing to do it But like to be in the Facebook community and hold a community of 15,000 people and all the complexities that Sometimes means is actually easier for me than to like write that two thousand or block Shoot the video seven times, right? You know how you do it, but I get a lot of visibility By being in that role like I asked to be an off, you know, speak here and summits this and it's part of how Many people who do approach me to be clients I'm doing a conversation with a wonderful woman named Jane Warrow Coach who lives out in Southern California and she calls it radical conversations and the focus of it's next week I think and the focus of our call is is dialogue like really meaningful dialogue radical conversations is that Viable way to do business in this economy, right? And I would say my experience is yes, right being really visible as somebody who helps hold a space of dialogue that Doesn't have a lot of peers at least in our sector means that I get to be really visible Without having to turn out video after video after video or blog post after blog post Yes, my visibility is much more than most people who you know create content or I only send out a news That are usually once a month, you know they're saying you're supposed to do it five times a week. I don't way Wow I can't do that. I don't I'm not aligned with it. I hate it when somebody emails me five times a week But like, you know, it's expensive to live and I kid we eat organic food And you know, I don't I don't live extravagantly But living in the US is expensive. It is actually where you have and yeah I live in Santa Fe, New Mexico a little less, but still not the most affordable place in the world Yeah, like somehow If you're gonna run a viable business Visibility is a key issue and we all have to find right relationship This has been a way that makes sense to me. I have some training around I used to be a social worker and I did a bunch of work on the Pueblos of northern New Mexico Like Tows Pueblo is the most famous and everything there is about community. Everything is about this So like I have spiritual Training about the power of the circle and what happens and how hungry most modern Humans are for a deep sense of community and I I kind of knew that in myself because again I'm so great. I would just happen to be at the rose the white guy with a degree When kids were in trouble on the Pueblos and they're like, well, you're not from here But you need to know a few things because you're gonna be working with their kids. So then they download stuff So I this being has been blessed with many Beautiful experiences and that informs who I am and Holding circles is I got some pretty advanced level training that you can't get in grad schools You can't take a workshop from some of the stuff I got But it's from people who have been living in one place. It's the oldest Tows Pueblos The oldest continually inhabited building in North America. They've been living there for a thousand years. Wow They've learned a few things about how to do community well, right? When it came how do I want to be visible? I brought some of that into my business because it was something that was gifted to me That's amazing. Wow. That's a what a rich background and opportunity for You've kind of you've learned the spirit of community and you're learning to bring your practicing to bring that to the online space And now we're going back all the now is the printers is starting to get local and start to do some stuff and some really Grand in their ways in different communities around the world like sink it up through this a friend of mine Let me the what he called the Directors cut the movie avatar where they there was it was a longer version of it the more fuller version of the movie avatar It's like this net, right? So hopefully the intent is that wisdom printers can be this net where people are sharing information of having deep dialogue Yes, something meaningful happens and you know in Santa Fe We're gonna start doing some really cool local stuff and talking to people in Boulder and Oklahoma City And how do we sync them up? I'd have a very local experience of meaningful dialogue in circle with Our local wisdom entrepreneur friends and then have it be synced up with what's happening globally Totally. Oh, that's beautiful. That's really beautiful. I like this idea of Well, essentially creating content through conversation In wisdom printers it happens through the Facebook comments Right, hey, someone posts a question other people chime in with their feedback their insight Which then other people might reply to and then the conversation keeps building on each other on itself in fact one of the one of the items on my End of day checklist every day and now people who know me know that I'm like this I've got like these structures for how I run my day and my end of the checklist includes a question Did I comment in a group today? If so copy that comment and see if it needs to be as a video or something like that Just as a reminder because I think someone the most brilliant. I've seen someone the most brilliant ideas Portive Sort of frameworks come out and Facebook comments and I feel like it's that should be highlighted that should be Absolutely out and created like that should be you know shout it from the mountaintops almost some some of these yes, and then So I'm imagining like as I'm imagining this sort of ideal wisdom Business type of world and imagining communities like wisdom printers where people come together They create content and relationships just by the virtue of being supportive presence there then I Think I'm encouraging people to really to take it to the next step and say Who are you meeting in here that you want to connect with more on a one-to-one basis just like you and I are Schedule that connection make that happen and if it feels comfortable Record the connect we record the conversation And if you do nothing with it Do you have an opportunity now to turn that into a video that you can easily upload on the YouTube or Facebook or Take the audio put that for those we don't know if you use zoom like we are right now zoom dot US The recording automatically gives you a separation between the video and just the audio itself Which makes it super easy to then create into a podcast and I'm imagining that as people create More one-to-one connections that come out of commute you know come out of meaningful community The community of course is stronger Because people really know each other better and they can engage in a more meaningful way But I'm also seeing this ecosystem, and I'm sure you've seen this probably this conversation wisdom nerds this ecosystem of businesses Get formed no so that next time I am Immediately after this conversation, I'm sure if I think of someone who needs branding You're the first person who's obviously going to come to mind Right it becomes an ecosystem And so you know earlier on today. I talked with Doug for resta. He's a podcast specialist So immediately if I think of someone who needs podcasting help. He's so it's like people. Let's let's connect more one-to-one I feel like This is something I've been saying to my clients over the years. I say there is so little One-to-one connection between people online Genuinely surprises me genuinely surprises me because I've been In this business of marketing coaching for seven years full-time and I always say like I can almost count The few people who have reached out to me For a one-to-one connection in a thoughtful way. I mean yes, we all get emails every now and then that are just Very generic. They haven't researched us at all. They just want to get something out of us Yeah And the second level up is they researched us just a little bit and they just wanted to speak on a tele-summit so that we can promote it to our list Exactly, I get a lot of that Exactly Right, I always rip now you might never my reply Paul. You might be you might find this interesting I might steal it from you. Yes. No, please my reply is I love Having conversations sharing the best knowledge that I can in any setting my my policy, however Is that I have made an agreement with my audience that I will only share content with them? That does not require an email opt-in and so if you are willing for for me to share my session with On your tele-summit freely like on a YouTube video or embedded on my site where people don't have to opt-in Then I would be happy to share it and my other policy is that I will share it on social media for sure But I may or may not share it through my email Depends, you know, you're a disruptor George. You're totally disrupting And not surprisingly nine out of ten say oh, you know looks like you're not the best fit No, thanks, right, but there is like that one out of ten that Creates this beautiful conversation Which become you know oftentimes become friends with them and yeah, this ecosystem starts to grow and so I really believe that Yeah, I think we should be encouraging everyone just to Let's create an ecosystem so that just like the with the with the Pueblo. It's like you don't have to work alone anymore There is and I know there's been a conversation with thepreneurs where about entrepreneurship and depression And it's like where does that come from? Well, I believe it comes a lot because we have lost community and We feel like we are why are you know, we are alone in the dark You know We don't have the we don't have the wisdom and insight that we need and we don't have the friendships And the and the colleague ship that makes us feel that no, we're not going to be How out on the streets these people will help us these people will come to our aid Gosh, there's so much you just said And that's what that's what you're doing. That's what wisdompreneurs can't you know is becoming We're growing into you know, I want to be really fair Online we've done great. It's been bumpy. You know, it's been it's been awkward right now My co-founder is going through some health challenges. So Took two people who are already stretched and busy and turned it into one and we dropped some balls So anyway, I just I want to be really transparent that it hasn't been like this amazing But there's a couple things I want to say also one is I Don't it's not a formula or a Signature system that I do use a map with my clients and you might appreciate it what you were saying earlier The map that I use in my clients is brand content network brand content network It's really hard to have meaningful conversations online or you know in one too many like your videos going out if you don't you know One day you're doing it on some healing system like reiki in the next you're doing something on Growing your business and the next you're doing it on you know Healthy eating and the next you're doing it on an energy healing technique We're doing it on how you should get out in nature because that has been shown to reduce depression Which half and then the next you're doing it on parent. It's really confusing and over time People just like well George seems like a nice guy But I'm not gonna hire him because I'm gonna go over here and talk to someone so who's you know Our vice versa paul's a scattered guy George is like really crisp and really Focused and what he's doing. So that's the brand part. Who are you not just in terms of that? Certainly in terms of the focus of what you're sharing, but also the feeling tone part of my brand is a liveness and fun Sometimes spirituality Conversations and my tagline says wisdom based business solutions. Sometimes the wisdom world gets a little serious for my person Yeah, and that doesn't always mean it's like ha ha ha like hilarious But but a sense of like that sparkle in the eyes of somebody who's been practicing a long time and have that sort of like You know, we're pretty blessed to be alive. It's pretty much. It's it's such an honor to be on planet earth and to be a human that the Buddhist say Who believe in reincarnation they say you're more it's it's more likely that a turtle if you threw a small ring into the ocean That a turtle would accidentally pop its head through about one ring The entire ocean entire ocean that it is to be born a human being. Wow. That's that's the kind of reference in one tradition like Whatever your friend, there's lots of others examples. Yeah, that one's a point You just take a little ring throw it in the ocean and it's how that's how blessed we are to be Yeah, I want to bring a certain like kind of a liveness to the conversation So there's that feeling and then when you have content like what you do people can when they go to your site They can read your blog. You don't have to like say, oh, I was like amazing business Come on the latest hottest clue you let your work speak for itself But if you have no work out there, then you're at a disadvantage So so the content start getting good content then you can do one-on-one networking Or in groups, but if you're I'm with you I think networking is hugely underappreciated and I'm blessed because again because I'm Muslim partners co-founder People come to me and you know, I do reach out when I can but like these beautiful and amazing opportunities sort of fall on my lap Not me having to do a lot of work Usually like somebody just emailed me before this He's got something he's launching and I saw the overlap with both my own personal So we're gonna get on the phone a little later actually when we hang out and talk about what he's got going He's a great guy's got a six-figured business. But like that's not what it's about. There's just deep resonance But it's with somebody who has real strong business acumen and that's a beautiful combination I really like that combo and it happens a lot Again for me, I would say because I have a brand that people understand wisdom-based business solution Co-founder of wisdompreneurs like people kind of a sense of what I'm about. They know pretty quickly. I don't even talk to that guy I'm not interested or yeah, I'd like to who is this guy? There might be some overlap here. Let me get on and we do this and all kinds of amazing things happen And I don't have a very big email list. I don't really if I never sent an email again My client flow probably wouldn't change that much, right? It's it's it's it's built on that awareness, right? Have a really good brand or a really good Plan for that story to go out into the world through your content And then you get network and it just More fun for me to do this than right, you know, really complicated Totally search engine optimized blog post with words and links and yeah, wait one fuck, right? Totally. Yeah, absolutely. I like I love the simplicity of that that map. Actually, I have a quite similar map It's interesting. We kind of use different words. I I talk about Optimizing your offering and then I talk about content and I talk about enrollment and then throw for productivity Kind of like this this kind of the cycle But it's it of course. No, it of course the map is similar Because we're looking at reality here, right? businesses are created So the the thing about content that you said is interesting is that yes We don't have to do what the internet marketers are teaching us if it does not That it doesn't float our boat, you know, it's like we need to need to find natural ways of creating content that is aligned with our brand and that is Joyful and if we are willing to be creative, there are plenty of ways to discover that And so like I mean, I think like I said, you know this one-to-one connection if you're willing to record it Rich content can come out of it. And even if you don't record it. It's like if you're talking with someone one-to-one It's good that afterwards To take some notes Say, ah What came out of that conversation that I'd like to share in my next writing or in my next video with my next something And I I always I always tell my clients to say listen after you meet with clients If you can if you have two minutes Take a pause And just do a little bit of writing or or even if you want to record it on a on your phone or something Yeah, what was the insight? Right. What was the insight that came out of that that could bless others like them? Absolutely Back to what you were saying. There's that there's the one-on-one and then also going back to the conversations on social media So a really great example that the best post I had seen in the past week or so Tia's Sylvester at Story Beach drove her to an incredible post. I thought it was very well done Which was about I don't remember the title but I have to look it up Was it it was at a post in wisdompreneurs? She she started the Congress She came to was she went to her own network and she also came to wisdompreneurs saying talk to me about the intersection of Chronic illness and entrepreneurship because I'm noticing a Significant number of people growing over she's been in business a while. I don't remember how long Tia's been in business But a while 10 12 15 years And she does story-based marketing consultant does a great job, right? But she noticing an increasing number of people in her both her client But also her professional network have some sort of chronic elements. Yeah, my algea chronic fatigue allergies Cancer you name it, right and a bunch of people are turning the entrepreneurship some Consciously because they just don't have the inner if you got chronic fatigue It's really hard to work at a you know really fast-paced corporate environment, right? There's a mismatch interesting. Yeah, or people are just crashing and burning They've been trying to work in that environment and something happens health-wise where their body or their being says nope You're not going to do this anymore. You literally cannot put on your suit and go work 80 hour work weeks It'll never happen. Your body says no in in a yes He weighs right yes, you're a human being you still need to eat you still need to have a roof over your head It's really cold here in the winter you need to live somewhere right either that or you like you know drive away Or like you know you're being on the street here in the winter is not the same as being on the streets I'm not that it's fun to be on the streets. I've just come in January, but here it's life-threatening Right you have to have a house you have to have a likely What do you do when your body is not just literally can't go into the corporate or organizational environment structures that we have More and more people with that scenario turn into entrepreneurship and she wrote a post Interviewing I don't know good 12 or 15 different people getting quotes from them This one has this illness and here's how they work it in how do they have to think about pacing? You have to think anyway a gorgeous job and that was just a beautiful example of somebody who The conversation and wisdom printers and one of the groups everybody was like that is an amazing Conversation you should write a post. I was one of the people cheering her on to you write this that is such Important post for our time and she did and it's a great post partially because she's kind of framing it But she took that community approach Yeah Social media allows and she crowdsourced it and she got more than one person's story So it allows you to see The wider pic because she's you know if you're new to that situation you're somebody who's got an illness and you're thinking of entrepreneurship But you don't know a lot of entrepreneurs who are dealing with this Do you just like let you kind of she pulled back the curtain and kind of like here's the reality a whole bunch of people Really lived this and thought about this. Yeah talking to each other and she wove it together Beautiful way that kind of continent not surprisingly went totally viral through social media a lot of people share Including me because there's a great push. Yes, it's a really important thing for a time It wasn't coming from her ego. You could just feel her desire to be of service. Yes, not that That that's the only tea is a she's a very service oriented person But this you can there was a diff she took it to a whole new level of being service to a whole sort of Generation of humans who are alive right now having an experience that's not easy to make sense of and she said Let me show you how some other people who are smart and thought about this how they're navigating this water Yes, and gave some beautiful tips and yeah, I went totally viral. So it's great for her business Yeah, she's providing a service for people who are in a really challenging circumstances That's the best use of these kinds of communities that I can ever imagine Yeah, oh What a great example Yes She is basic. She basically Observed and that's like I think that's key observed what people are struggling with she noticed a pattern of struggle among different people and then she says how can I help and how can I then because everybody has some way for them to cope with their own struggle and Others can learn from that and so she curated and so I think I think in this age Each of us can really benefit others by curating The wisdom of our own network Absolutely, I use you all the time in my clients right my clients who say oh But I don't want to like do some it and we talked earlier about your life I want to like do the like just blind, you know Incorporate the single bottom line metric is usually Short-term yeah, you know entrepreneurs sometimes to me it feels like the single yeah people are tracking their profits But to even more than that the metric that I think is easy to get really balanced out of balance around is the size of your email That's what I'm gonna make a single bottom line metric. Oh my gosh the online marketing space It's the size of your email, right? Yeah, and I have clients who just single bottom line just doesn't feel good, right? And I said I don't have a huge email list And it's the opposite of holistic right the single myopic focus on one number. Oh, yeah, exactly Monolithic ways of doing business don't feel so they're like Paul am I gonna be broken on the street if I don't I'm like, well, let me tell you I'll tell you this as my email list. I'll say there's this guy George He's made a big shift and I we've talked before so I remember when you were doing more of that and now Did I tell you did I tell you that I've removed? Like 90% of my email list. No, you didn't tell me that You it felt like you got out of you got out of integrity out of about out of balance at least Yeah, that conversation around some of this single bottom line Email focus and you're like, I'm not doing that. No, it's yes It's it's so a year ago. So after we had this conversation two years a year ago I made this radical choice to prune 90% of my email list Now I have to say that what I did was I downloaded those email addresses I put them in a Google Drive spreadsheet just in case I Realize I made some crazy mistake, but I haven't actually looked back I actually removed the people from my email list who had not Clicked on links or hadn't opened the email I think that I think I might my criteria was if they haven't opened my If they haven't opened my email in the last six months or clicked on a link Yeah, I guess that's that was it in the last six months then I Didn't the way I says I no longer want to burden their email inbox With my email because I know how it feels to keep getting these emails And so I removed I removed them and several benefits came out of that one benefit was I saved over $100 a month From my email list Provider night because it's the larger the list generally the more you have to pay are you paying sure and even though the list people are not even reading your stuff You're still paying to cluttered up their inbox. Hey, I was and so the other benefit of it was that I I kind of felt like wow now now my number is Manageable enough where I feel like I really want to serve these people And these are the people who are actually reading my stuff not that the other people aren't important They're important, but maybe they will prefer to read my stuff on social media Maybe they prefer to hear about me from other people, but for some reason that my emails with them were not the right channel To continue that interaction. So these people now Obviously my open rates have grown a lot And then my quick rates and the benefit from that is the course of the liberability of the email more people are actually getting my emails now rather than spam or some other folder and I may also make this radical choice Where I said I'm gonna separate out my Content list from my launch list Meaning meaning I used to put them in one where That's the general idea, right? You have one email list. Sometimes you send content Sometimes you send your launch my launch is meeting. Oh, I'm ready to take on more clients or I have this group program now And it's decided to separate that and I said and I actually gave people a choice All right now. This is just a content list now the one that you're on I'm just gonna send you free content. There's no opt-in. Just my best stuff If you want to also be notified when I'm open to clients or launch a group program You need to also take action to join this other list And then what and then the third random thing I did was I made it hard relatively speaking to join my list Which is a counter-intuitive, but there's something about people Seeking something out that they want and that energy that they invest in seeking it out Makes it more valuable and more meaningful for them so it's not like it's impossible to find where to draw my newsletter, but it's It used it's no longer either a pop-up or it's no longer even above the fold on the home page Now have to actually look in the navigation or they have to go to the footer to then click on the link And then they get to a certain place or is all right You can either join my content list or my launch list or both I guess So it's this kind of and and I haven't looked back and I've been so grateful to know that I'm now shepherding This community, you know, so You know, and I have to say yes, it's it is it's still early days. I think for me So I'm still learning how to I mean for sure now my my open rates are pretty steady now I'm pretty high and pretty steady my click rates are the same Now I'm of course, but my launch list is way smaller Because I gave them that choice And so it is more challenging when I want to announce a service or product It's not getting as many, you know views as I is it used to But I know that for the people and but nobody is unsubscribing from my launch list Like it's very interesting like when I do send them something they actually want to see it That's great George. Yeah, you're really so I'm experimenting and I would love to hear right There's an experiment you're doing about patreon that I'm really curious That's another experiment that I'm like tell me about that. That's really cool. So I am Patreon is a way is a platform where content creators Can get the financial support of their audience either per thing they create like per video They create audiences can pledge to say listen. I love your videos man Every time you make a video or every time I write a blog post I'm gonna give you two bucks Because I love your stuff and it's really worth at least that much to me So that's one way that people support others on on patreon The other way is through a monthly pledge to say all right Paul I just love your overall work your wisdom printers. In fact, I was gonna I was gonna put in that thread Paul What where's your patreon? You know, well that we're gonna starve on the wisdom printers That's I don't I don't know that I'm gonna do I'm personally put for wisdom printers to start to have some resources Yes, and do a little more building out and shepherding in the community. Yes a bit of resources. Oh, I'm absolutely going to Going to be one of the supporters there but the the the idea is a Realignment with this beautiful spiritual tradition of I think it's pronounced Donna Yeah, this like this idea of generosity, I mean in in the Christian tradition, they'd be charity Yeah, you know, but it's in every spiritual tradition. There's this idea that if you if your heart is overflowing For a particular teacher for a particular organization, let your heart overflow Also in your material support. Yes A great example of somebody who does this really well If if somebody wants a modern references one of my favorite meditation teachers a woman named Tara Brock. Yes You know Tara's amazing and she brings in neuroscience and very deep understanding of mindfulness Science of it plus such a harsh full person and she is a great storyteller so she and other people in the Particularly the inside meditation tradition Jack cornfield and others they give their teachings away through a collective site called dormancy But Tara at the beginning in the end in a very very thoughtful way Does a little pitch, you know, he's these meditating these teachings and meditations are freely given I'm trying to remember listen a lot of them And you know, if you appreciate what if you like what you're hearing here I really appreciate your support either in the form of joining my email is coming to a workshop or she has a donation button I say which is called So here's somebody coming from a tradition using online I don't know how many downloads Tara Brock has got, you know, she's a very well teacher presence on social media and she does You know does quite well her workshops and stuff that she uses this Donna to allow and uses technology in this very Generous way. There's no pop-up on darmacy.com. Please give us money. Yes, I operate It's just free and but then when you click on it and you start listening She knows, you know, hey, just know that this is an opportunity and I think that that's There's an experiment happening and that there's sort of a maturing like the the people who are early to market with Online marketing techniques Came from a pretty mostly a pretty traditional marketing background the more the better that you know more money more numbers more Short-term. Yeah, yeah short-term single bottom-line type metrics is the tradition and that just that's how business is mostly on planet earth It's cheap. Yes, they just brought that training with them It feels to me like now there's people who have you know, I have many more decades Even though I've been doing my business now for almost 10 years I have many more decades and the meditation and spiritual realm. I started when I was 17 Then I do in the marketing. So I you know, I'm a wisdom printer, but I come more from the wisdom tradition It's only recently that Relatively in the span of a human life that I came to the business and I think there's more people like that that are coming from a place of Spiritual tradition or values or whatever you want to call that who want to use Technology you mean we wouldn't know each other if technology didn't exist So it's a beautiful thing and I'm so grateful for it and the right use of it and how to balance the Teachings that I've gotten from so many wisdom teachers including native people here in northern New Mexico, you know A single bottom line if you're a culture that has lived in the same place for a thousand years and you look There's a there's a saying at Tows Pueblo that somebody is a younger brother a younger sister We're acting in an immature way. We're still connected, but like you're a younger brother You know like like somebody might say that to you you would say oh, I'm so upset about what Susie over there is doing She's hurting people and herself and her neighbors and an elder would say George Yeah, I really appreciate your concern Susie is a younger sister. Just just love her and treat her like a young like a younger sister She's she's in a immature Place as a human being and that just happens right it takes time for humans to mature And then they'll get mad. They don't ignore it They have mechanisms if somebody's hurting others to eventually step in Have a frame of like the person deserves care and love, but also like The There is a there are more and less mature ways to be on planet Earth and I think a lot of Online the uses of online technologies a lot of us have been younger brothers Absolutely me like there's an experiment going on. What are the more mature uses of these technologies? I'm so grateful so excited about that and I see you really in that You know being a thought leader in that conversation Yeah, thank you, man. Thank you Just a quick time check. Are you? Okay, okay One one last thing I want to mention to bring into the conversation is this idea I was just listening to a podcast today From the Good Life Project Which is a beautiful podcast and they were talking about this idea of holding loosely The things and I feel like that that's kind of what I've been What I've been called to learn over the past especially over the past three years is to not Be fixated on must grow my email list must make them get my emails all the time must Yeah, it's just this idea now like transforming that say oh, let me let me see what if I can do if I just let go My content is now all free. So what if I just let go and then not be as concerned about what comes back right away Knowing that the the reality I believe Of the life the metaphysical reality is that you and I are going to be profoundly taken care of we are profoundly taken care of I'm so blessed Again, I don't live I don't drive a sports car and drive a Lamborghini Like I don't I don't make that kind of room But I live in a beautiful place and I'm a four-wheel drive car that'll get me into the mountains to do the Skiing and the yeah, it's no shooing and the hiking that me and my tribe do You know we mostly are getting through You know how about beautiful place to live and I have community and I have time to spend with that community and that The client recently one of my newest clients and one of my groups. We were having a conversation She asked me really pointedly how much do I make and I said it's great I'll tell you and And I said, but please keep in mind that I work about 30 32 hours a week to achieve that income And I'm not working, you know, it's part of my I have gotten out of balance in terms of work with with wisdompreneurs trying to scale Yeah, they up with some of that So I've worked more than 30 32 out of my pain I can support a child live in a beautiful place eat organic food have nice clothes, you know Travel so my daughter to volleyball camp put braces on her teeth, you know health insurance for 30 30 most of the world would That that's I mean like talk about a beautiful life right like like to live well on that kind of Lifestyle that feels good to me and and I'm okay. That's enough right and really am at a place I know what enough is and more comes along. I put it into wisdompreneur, you know, whatever like, you know I know I have some ideas of where to put extra but That sense of enoughness feels like part of the maturing and I see you it's a pretty radical experiment with the patron like I'm gonna put your income out there from everyone to see to make that Enoughness conversation visible and I really I really honor you Thank you. I am Always seeing how can I experiment in a way that can teach Something to others to see if they want to join in but I want to respect your time. I know you got another call. Thank you Thank you. This is wonderful continued yeah, and Always let me know I can how I can help Thanks George. I really appreciate it. I love what you're up to and thanks for your time. Yeah, absolutely man You too. Bye