 Good afternoon. Welcome to this exchange for media, pitch, brand talk. Today we have two special guests who have built a company from scratch, who continue to build it even in these tough times and who expanded on what they've done and in some way, they live their motto of, So when COVID hit, they were ready to go to the next level. So let me welcome Gaurav Dublish and Siddharth's co-founders of this widely popular brand called Wildcrab. Welcome Siddharth and Gaurav. How have been the last 1-20 days for you? Thanks, Amurad. They've been phenomenal. I'll let me use that word in both sets, you know. Not many people these days, when you have conversations with them, I do a daily TV show, very few people use the word, phenomenal. Somebody who's friend table is other day. So I said, you know, maybe he's in the wrong show and I'm on the wrong show. But glad that there are silver linings in this very dark cloud. So the reason I use the word phenomenal is because, you know, an entrepreneur's life is always a roller coaster. And when you're on that roller coaster, you know, the higher the fall and the higher the going up, I think that's, that's what is phenomenal. So it's been phenomenal both in terms of the kind of drops we've taken and the heights that we've taken. I think they've been very interesting times. You know, 120 days exactly now. I remember 20th March, you know, Gaurav and me up in the first Janta lockdown was announced. You know, the two of us had a chat and said, this is coming. You know, everyone could see the writing on the wall that larger lockdown was coming. And I think the whole idea was, you know, as a concept, as a brand, you know, one of our thought process or our philosophy has always been about embracing the uncertainty. And I think on 20th March, there was no bigger uncertainty around us, right? And one of the things we said is either we run away from it or we run at it. And being entrepreneurs, we decided to run at it rather than run away from it. And I think that's a call that we took on 20th of March and we said, what is it in this time of pandemic that we as an organization for our team, for our company and for the country, you know, what is it that we can solve for? What is it that we can do? And, you know, we've been at it for the last 120 days and we'll be at it for some time to come. Can you tell us, when do you say we've been at it? I know you launched a new campaign. You got into a new category. Tell us or we are about it. Gaurav? So, I'll have to remind a bit and it's important for, you know, Siddharth is playing that as a speed saver actually. It is head-to-head, you know, that's a campaign that was going by. We were very closely with Oogilvi and, you know, the entire team from Mahesh Karat to Yush. And they assisted us in putting the screen in that way to come in together. But for your viewers to understand what goes, what went behind the start, it's important for us to be able to pull across the story. You know, 20 years back, you know, we're back in 1929 actually, 21 and a half years back. You know, Siddharth and I were actually studying together the students of this school in Bombay and, you know, both of us are from small cities. He's from a capital city and from a small city actually. You know, from the foothills of Himalayas or literally from the hills of Himalayas, we actually never entered into heights and treks and stuff. Before the 99, you know, we were, you know, we were actually pursuing our management course. And one of the things which happened in my school was that you get an internship after your first year. And under that internship, you know, had an opportunity for the Vipro. Vipro obviously had caught in Bombay. We were able to actually come to Bangalore and the week that we landed, there was Kargil Paul then in 99 May. And it just so happened that all the tickets were cancelled and we were waiting and how to be able to use, you know, connecting with the thought of how to make an opportunity out of a problem. We met friends, we made friends with Dinesh. Dinesh is our other co-founder. He is 59 now. He was 37 then when we met him. And he and his group of friends used to take to the hills around Bangalore. Bangalore is very fortunate to that extent. It has lovely, within 50, 200 kilometers, it has lovely borders and hikes and shales and stuff. They used to take to the hills very often and one thing led to the other. I started company them in those 25 days that was here in Bangalore. And it just so happened in the final placements, you know, opted for any company which would give me a role in Bangalore. And Siddharth also, you know, see anything happen. The two of us in July 2000, we landed up in Bangalore. Siddharth was pursuing finance, I was pursuing marketing. And we started off professional careers here. And between 1999, we actually spent a lot of time to be able to scratch ahead and say, what is it? What is it that this aspiring world of outdoor, this aspiring world of hikes and cracks, lends itself to because it was very counterintuitive for a few of us. For example, you know, I used to run in school. I used to be in the 3-1 hours in school. For me, obstacle seems to be, you know, an infirmary, you know, it's something that used to irritate me. Siddharth was a set of six, seven people, you know, who in late 30s used to feast on obstacles. They used to take to the road less traveled. And they used to feast, which is the stuffers from the roots to be able to skate up to Savantargao, to Rangoswamy Hills, you know, the various hillops around the Bangalore. And our belief was, you know, the two of us who were actually at the peripheries of people who were passionate about outdoor was, there was something which is very magnetic, which is very magnetic in the pursuit of outdoors and the manifestation of outdoors. And to us, for us, it was our belief was that each one of us, each one of us are viscerally explorers. Can you be a bit louder, be louder? One of the listeners has said that you can be all louder. He said audio is not clear. I can hear you clearly. Well, that proves I am not old. I saw it. Okay, let me try. So, you know, viscerally, you are intrinsically the explorer and at some point of time, we'll discuss that how did we come to it. But out of the belief that each one of us is an explorer, the reason for that was instinctively, we believe humans are configured to not live a life which is full of comfort zone. You know, we are hardwired to live life outside of comfort zone or to pursue a life outside of comfort zone. While our agrarian life, while our industrial life, while our bubble that is being created, is a bubble that we seek. But essentially, where we enjoy, we enjoy when we step out of the comfort zone and that embracing the uncertain, the unknown, unplanned, that's a belief. And the purpose of our... That's the core value. That's a core belief. It's a core value system. It's a core belief, actually. And on that belief is a purpose to be able to enable and equip you and me to take the road less traveled and embrace the uncertain by products and services which are configured for wilderness, for the life of wilderness. So, it's for... We borrowed wilderness and we borrowed crafting and we... that's supposed to be made by craft. And since 98, 99, 2000, when we were still in college and for the last 13 years that we've been learning this business together. Things have changed, orbits have changed. When we become larger, when we become bigger, it will be the best, which are the way that people actually tell us. But one thing which we've not left is that beauty of that person, the beauty of the leaf. And I think the head they are coming to the point. Actually, we commonly use internally, when we are reviewing a team and you have a typical Jumlao life company. So, we have very, very similar. We may say, are you ready? So, people say, we are ready for anything. That's typically the way we play around. When we are really feeding somebody to be able to take somebody's faith. And the ready for anything was thought, that book we actually took it. And they said, this is a very, very beautiful thought that you are actually sitting on. You know, can we master fight? Can we use it to master fight? He said, that's something which will resonate very well internally with us. And that will also be an integrated communication. And they turned it into a Hyatayar and then Hyatayar home. And the ready for anything which is, you take the road less taken and you increase the uncertainty and be ready for anything with the fight. That became a Hyatayar and that became Hyatayar. So, that's the context of which Hyatayar home is to that extent. Expansion was something which came naturally for us. And also, the beauty is that, you know, I remember reading this book late 80s, early 90s, called The Road Less Traveled and Scott Peck, right? That's the author. You talked about it. But, you know, now you're a thousand crore brand. You know, you build a certain scale, size, a certain expectation. What has changed after you become such a big brand in business? And what has remained the same? See, big is always relative. You know, a thousand crore brand is a hundred, it's a hundred and thirty million dollar brand. You know, some of our global spanners play. We are not even a rebel in this entire world of playing a branded brand. You know, while in the world of India, we'll be very pleased with ourselves, but that's when you're looking at things. The second you're looking at things is that there are a hundred and thirty-seven crore, forty-eight crore engines. There are thirty-five million households or forty-five crore households there. And we typically end up addressing the top ten percent of those households. How do we make a brand? How do we make a brand relevant? Because this embracing the uncertain, you know, this instinct is not for people. There is a charm in kind of romancing the unknown, so to say. Absolutely. There is always a charm. And to that extent, this entire migrant instinct, this entire instinct of ceremonially, you know, artistic instinct or physically the backpacker instinct, which is how our brands are layered, is not relevant for only the urban folks. It is as relevant to the rural India, as relevant to UN needs, as relevant to the person who is somewhere about lost in his comfort zone. You know, what has happened in this pandemic is this huge pandemic has made us pause, has made us stop and start reflecting, you know, about what happened initially with the two of us and possibly Siddharth would take it from there. You know, it took us two days to actually reflect upon where we are. Is it something which is really, is it surreal, is it not going to last? It took us some time, you know, two days to be able to come out of it. This is not the end of the world. This is possibly one more antifragile hammer which is possibly going to make us stronger if you want to choose to actually look at it from that perspective. And I think Siddharth will mention our possible effect on how we were able to, in those first 48 hours when this lockdown actually happened, were able to pull up our socks. I want to bring in Siddharth, but I just want to ask you one more thing and get both of you to, I mean, I should have asked this question at the end, but I'll ask it right at the state, sort of set the tone. If I talk to you in five years from now and I'm not taking 10, 15, you seem like very ambitious guys. You may play down in a category like yours to reach 1000 crores from scratch and it's commendable. And there I say, you look like you just started. But if I talk to both of you in five years, where would you like Wildcraft to be? So, you know, one of the things that we've taken and again, you know, we want to make an element to a billion Indians and I'll just touch upon, it's not billion Indians. It's billion Indians. You know, one of the beliefs that we have and that beliefs shaped up because of our roots in a small city is that for some reason, you know, you started this conversation and you're saying, well, where are you from? You know, one of the beauty of ways of looking at it is a diversity in India. You know, I looked at it somewhere in the last two or three million years and actually become, so I think from perspective of bigger circles. You know, one day of the 21st, 24th, 25th, 26th, 28th, 29th, all of you have been there. And that guy piece has been somewhere towards instinctively has to be going through these times, then after 4th and 30th class. You know, after 4th and 30th class, you're going to say, you know, you're going to say, you know, you're going to say, you know, you're going to say, I don't know. Siddharth, you can take on while we get Gaurav back. So when we talk to you and Gaurav in five years, where will why it's not me? What's... When Gaurav and we talked about figures 10 years, 15 years, 15 years, whatever time frame we take, we rarely talk in terms of revenue numbers, okay, because for us, revenue is the outcome of all the inputs that we are going to do. So the focus always in the conversation that the two of us have is what are the inputs we are going to do. Now, if you are 1000 crores, it's a nice number to have, it has a nice ring about it and all of that. And we said, you know, six or seven years ago, we've been interviewed by someone and it said it'll be good to get to 1000 crores by 2020. But beyond that interview, I don't think internally we've ever driven the business by saying 1000 crores and 1000 crores is not going to happen. What we focused on, for example, if you take white cup today, we've focused on why people are able to do what we've done in the last 120 days that we get to in a moment is because we focused on saying that we want to put a value chain together, right? So we've invested in people right from design to materials to research and development to manufacturing to supply chain to you know, sales and distribution. And we've always said if you focus on the inputs correct and if you focus on the inputs consistently, the outputs are going to happen. They might not happen this year, they might take a year extra or two years extra, but what are the inputs? So from both of our perspective, I think our goal is to make, you know, five years ago, the answer to that question was that vinyl craft should be bigger than the two of us put together so that the two of us are dispensable in vinyl craft. I think we've achieved that over the last five years that we are dispensable now in vinyl craft, you know, if a bus was to hit the two of us tomorrow morning, you know, why can't it stay beyond the two of us? I think similarly, the objective of the next five years is how to make it relevant to, like I said, a billion Indians, right? And what do we need to do whether it isn't product engineering, whether it is to do with the rest of the channels, whether it is to do on how do we reach that last consumer? You know, those are the inputs that we want to focus on the last five years and say how do we scale up those things? Revenue will follow, revenue will come. I don't think revenue as an outcome is an answer or to that question. Okay, Siddharth, but let me ask this question differently. Let's not focus on the numbers for a while. In terms of the impact you described on a billion Indians, because as Gaurav rightly said, you know, there is so much uniqueness and diversity every few kilometers and every few hours in India, in food, in language, in clothes, in the way we dress up. So I get that. But let me give you some other qualitative aspects of, for example, this category of masks, you saw an opportunity and you expand it, right? Gavash, will you be going into new product categories before the COVID, had you planned new launches, which for whatever reason you may not have done now, would you like to give our viewers and readers a peek into that? Absolutely. Oh, you know, for us, you know, we are a functional performance brand, right? We've been working with the Ministry of Defense now for nearly four years to create a technical rucksack for the Army Javan. And you know, we designed it in conjunction with the Ministry of Defense. We wanted to enter to supply those rucksacks to the Indian Army. So you know, from everything from you know, college campus kids to, you know, people who go to office to the Army Javan, right? We are across categories. And for us, the functionality and the performance of the product overrides anything else that we need to put in the product, right? So with that as a thought, we've been over the last, you know, multiple six months, senior sessions that we have, we keep thinking about what are the new product ranges, but which we're going to do and all of that. Now, let me take a case of the mask and the hazmat suits, right? We are the largest branded player of rainwear products in India. You know, Wildcraft says the maximum amount of branded raincoats and rainwear in India. Now the hazmat is nothing but a refashioned rainwear, right? So for us, we did not have to have sleepless nights on figuring out how our hazmat suit is made. For us, it's a natural extension of what we know. We have the material engineering in-house. We know what material goes in. We know the technology. We have the manufacturing in-house. We have the competency of research and development in ours. So it took us barely 24 hours before the first hazmat suit rolled off our production line, right? Because we knew, we exactly know. So similarly in the respirators, right? Because our, you know, we have people, we did a little bit of respirators even before COVID, you know, because people who are going hiking and trekking used to ask for this protection device. So for us, it was an opportunity where, like I said, because we had invested in the relevant research and development, material engineering and all of that, we were able to take that, take on these opportunities and immediately go into it. Now, to your second part of your question, I think, you know, what we've done just to give you a sense of what we've done over the last 120 days. You know, in the first two months, three months, we scaled our manufacturing when people were laying off, you know, were being laid off across the country. We have about 3,700 people in Guelph, right? And one of the girls and I first put off all on 20th or 22nd March when we were discussing people, you know, the first thought process was, how are we going to save jobs? These are people we put, you know, person by person, we put the bill, this family, you know, person by person, and how we're going to make sure, you know, we don't get into retrenchments of laying off people. So not only did we have 2,500 people out of these 3,700 people in manufacturing who were doing manufacturing for these respirators, we scaled up our headcount to about 30,000 people in May and June. We had, you know, we were up to about 30,000 people who were making respirators for Weissgraub. So no, from 2,500 people, we went 12x on convection. Similarly, on the distribution side, before COVID, we were getting distributed at about 5,000 points of sale, 5,500 points of sale, all together are EBU's and all of that. Today, we are distributed at about 100,000 points of sale. Now that's the opportunity, you know, that we've taken. So you go to a pharmacy, you go to a grocery store, you go to a Kriyanastore, you'll find this there, someone send me one of my sales guys, send me a picture the other day of what's that, you know, at a Panwala shop, you have a Ladi of Pan Prasad and you had a Minecraft mask Ladi right next to it, right? So if we have to reach a billion Indians, that's the distribution network that, you know, we need to take it. And I think we've taken a step on being able to go from the 10% of the urban households that Gaurav was talking about to going to a billion Indians. I think the distribution reach that we have created, I think that is significant. Now our next challenge is we've created this distribution reach. Now what are we going to do with this distribution reach? How are you going to capitalize on this distribution reach? What are the products that fit into the brand that can be catered through this distribution? So there are a lot of thoughts, the teams are on it, you know, you're going to see new products, but which are going to come from the same value system that we have, the thoughts that we have, the purpose that we have of helping people, you know, equipping them for the answer. So it's going to come from there. Okay, so that thank you for taking us through your thought process and how you were naturally primed up to do what you did in the last 100 or days with the performance brand and, you know, you're working with climbers who need the respiration and, you know, so it was a natural corollary for you to work on it and give back how you save jobs and how you expanded on your distribution. But at this point, I want to go to, you know, while a lot of us use Omnichannel, I think a lot of us have become B2C, direct to consumer or digital to consumer. I want to understand how important is digital in your mix and while digital is important, how important is television, radio, newspapers, magazines, outdoor, because you're a brand about being outdoor. So I take this question to both you and Gaurav, Gaurav first you and then Siddharth. Gaurav, I can't hear you. We've lost your voice. Very slight. Your voice is breaking. So that's why Gaurav comes back. Why don't you talk to us? Okay. You know, digital is extremely important. If you look at our audience side, you know, our audience or our target group completely sets in the digital space, right? So even before COVID, that has been a significant area of focus for us. As a matter of fact, whatever limited marketing budget we've had over the years, we've significantly spent it in digital and outdoors. As a matter of fact, those are the two mediums we've used. You know, before this campaign, we've not used too much of television, you know, very limited television we've done before this. But again, if you have to reach through the mass of India, I think all the channels that you spoke about, all are relevant. I don't think, you know, there are, there are different ridges at different points in time for different products that we'll give to these channels. But I think, you know, the kind of, for example, the Hentaiyaram campaign, you know, this campaign that we've done, we went out on television in a way we've never done television, right? And we believe that that was the right thing to go to the billion India's because why, you know, in the urban travelers or the travelers that we were targeting with Velcro as a brand, digital alone products maybe suffice. But if you have to go and sell at 100,000 points of sale, you need to use television as a media, the mass media to be used. So digital is important, television is important. Where are you at? No. I mean, we can hear you saying something, but no. Just connect with Mike or something. You know, I love the fact that you each a completely different sentences. You know, I can see that as a team that you would be a real team. Because you know, the co-founder dynamics, me being an entrepreneur, and I started, by the way, you guys started your company in 1999. I started, me and Amit started the same company in 2000 and me and Amit are MDI passports and now I was my, you know, he was with me in the engineering school. So that's how we are friends. And we started it in 2000. And you know, there's a good chance they know exactly what I'm thinking or something. I see that dynamics between both of us. So why Gaurav brother comes back online, you know, Gaurav and me, we obviously know each other for nearly 22 years now, 1998. I'm audible? Yes, yes. Yeah, in 1998. He's telling you what your hostel is. He was telling you what all you did in your hostel. He's going to brag about something, which is not troubling to them. I got to hear that, but so honestly, you know, one of the things what you're rightfully saying, you know, sometimes we believe that we become redundant for each other because you can complete us off the sentence of the other person. You believe here, my value at Bachaay because you know, too much of a thing. But one of the things that we've realized and on a serious note is that, you know, one of the reasons that the co-founder dynamics work well is when the co-founders have complementary skills rather than similar skills. Okay. And I think that's where, you know, the friendship turning into business because you hear a lot of this, you know, thing of saying friendship and business and all of that. I think some, one of the great aspects there is you have to recognize what are the complementary skills like Gaurav skill is to talk, mine is to listen. So you need to know what are the skills that each of you have and you need to play to the strengths of the other's skill. I think that's, that's a dynamic. I think that the two of us have been able to figure out between the two of us and been able to do it. As much as the two of us, you know, for the last 13 years that we've full-time run Minecraft, we've never had separate cabins or separate offices, right? We never sit about six feet away from each other. And, you know, on the periphery of our mind, we have, you know, what the other is talking about. We have that conversation in the periphery of our mind. He was going on. So we've never had the need to be or we've never ever felt disconnected as co-founders from saying, are you pulling the organization in a different direction and am I taking this in a different direction? You know, we might have our arguments of fights on which direction it needs to go in, but I think once we figure that fight out, I think that we know which direction we are going in. So I got back to you. And you know, while I want to exchange for media about marketing, advertising, media, let me ask you, if both of you had to say what as entrepreneurs, what made you successful apart from the co-finder, dynamics, and if there is a playbook to be successful as an entrepreneur? Gaurav first you and then Gaurav. Am I audible? Yeah, now you're perfect. Gaurav, you're perfect. So, you know, but I would not completely agree to an assertion, which is we've been successful. Yes, we've been entrepreneurial. Gaurav, you have to be louder. You have to be like a Punjabi from Delhi. We've been reasonably resourceful, but I don't think between the two of us, we will consider ourselves to be successful. You know, success has various parameters of measurement and the last is not success in the minds of people around us, but success in the minds of us. And I think, generally speaking, I don't think we've crossed even a year of what should be defined as successful entrepreneurs. But what has led us, I can touch on that. You know, one of the things, you know, when we were young, we are still young actually, when Siddharth was young, I don't know, rather, was that we were very passionate. We were passionate about, you know, making difference to two people's lives, making a family flower, making a nation flower, making this and that. You know, there are a lot of things that as youngsters, you typically have. I think what we did have then, we didn't have a sense of purpose. And it was in biocraft, which uniquely, somewhere, you know, the belief of each of us being an explorer, the purpose being of rekindling the explorer in each one of us. It has to do with Dr. Bhattara too, to Mr. Sooths too, each one of our viewers here. How do we rekindle the explorer? How do we get them out of the comfort zone? I think that gave us a very deep sense of purpose. And hence, when you speak about five years, it really doesn't honestly excite us. But the point is that I think what works for us and is working for us and possibly the day stops working for us, I think we will start diminishing these two. I think passion with purpose is something that we've learned to live with. And we have striped for it. We've survived because of it. And I think at some point in time, hopefully we'll strive because of it. I think passion and purpose together is what make the entire, you know, the recipe of entrepreneurship very, very interesting and exciting. And the policy balance, it gets you a two-bit upon. I think a critical thing, which I think it says, even though that's my point of view. Gaurav Dubli says three P's of entrepreneurship. Passion, purpose and persistence. So this is what happened, Gaurav, perseverance was my point, but Gaurav took it away. This is what exactly you were saying. Gaurav, what was the story that Siddharth was going to tell about the Hostel and you said it's not true. So Siddharth, are you going to tell the story or I'm going to get Gaurav to tell his story. I'm going to tell whatever he is in his mind because if I start rattling out stories that might go on for a long time. Yeah, but I'd love to hear that one story that he was expecting you to say. Gaurav, just what should tell your audience that how, you know, like a mother I've cared for him when he came down with Jaundice and how our friendship really evolved in him being down with Jaundice and me peeling papayas for him, which I've never done in my life. So if I would say you are a husband and wife who'd given birth to a child called Wildcraft, right? Tell us what are the roles each one of you play? I'll go first. You know, whether we're the husband or wife, I am a victim of domestic abuse. Okay, so my role is to be able to take domestic abuse in this relationship, that's what it is. No, I think the way we see it is, I think it's about balance. I don't think we've ever sat down with the two of us and we've ever carved out saying, you do this and I do that. There are certain domains that we come from, you know, I come from a finance domain. He comes from sales and marketing, but it's not like he's not taking finance calls on my behalf or I'm not taking sales and marketing or I've not bought into that or he's not bought into that. I think what's worked well is that the two of us whenever we have a divergence of thought is when I think we go for a drink or a coffee or whatever time of the day is depending on the time of the day and trash it out and then be able to present that single, similar unified view to the team. You know, and it's not like the team has not seen us having, you know, our team sometimes get really worried when they see us arguing in a class, a class board cabin saying, you don't know, you just have to support them. Yeah, but the point is, I think what really works is to speak your heart out. You know, one of my favorite books of all time is pour your heart, you know, which is a heart charge, right? So it's exactly like that, you know, you don't hold back because, you know, the problems come when you start holding yourself back, when you start double guessing, you know, when you're thinking about his agenda, his objective, you know, just speak out, talk there, you know, and get it clarified. I think that's what's really worth in this context. So let me, let me, let me stay with some different, you know, you mentioned Dr. Bhakthar, you mentioned husband and wife, you know, I don't know how to react to it, but you know, the other day I was watching this old movie when Hali Natsali. Yeah, it's a lot of comments. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, and it has this juxtaposition of every half an a day, this old couple which comes in and give their own story. You know, another beautiful thing in that, and I still remember it connected with me as, you know, one of the husband actually said it right. You know, and I'm just paraphrasing what I understood from it, you know, organizations are essentially to us organisms. They're like organisms. And even organism what happens is that it helps somewhere to be able to look at the power of two, how the power of fun is, you know, for the two of us, and, and, you know, you know, and I think we will do it. In that organism, I believe the brain and the heart. And so that knows, you know, the brain knows that without a heart, brain doesn't matter. And the heart knows that without a brain, it doesn't exist. So I think that's the way we actually build this piece. You know, when it comes to, when it comes to, you know, separately interpreting things which is in front of us, which is logic and everything else, that's where his skillsets actually are completely start getting basically, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't have a heart. You know, and similarly, when it comes to making leaps of faith, you know, pushing the envelope and everything else, which is not reflecting on what is happening in the past, but taking intuitive calls in the future, I think he lets me have my way. Ultimately, he has his way and that's a different issue, but he makes me feel that I have my way. And that's the way we've managed it. And I'm going to say that you have a brain. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to know that. I jokingly say people say, to talk about brain, I said, God made four kinds of people, people like Siddharth who have both hair and brains, people who have some have hair, some have brains, people like me, no hair, no brains. I clearly, I don't have a brain. I was born in, I was like, God was born in UP. I was born in a part of the country where they don't use their brain. It just can't come into play, even if they have one, which is Haryana. I'm born in a country where it just doesn't work out like that. But it's good fun talking to you and you know, it'll be, I hope we can get together sometime and over whatever time. By the way, I keep saying at some point, there is an evening in some part of the world, so you know, we'll always open a bubbly, you know, you don't have to wait for the sun to go down in India. You can open an iPad, you can open a country that works for you. So coming back to marketing, now you talk about how digital has become important. And Gaurav, you were talking about the kind of TG you have, you know, who step out of the comfort zone, they're looking for experiences which are outdoor and they need a companion. Wildcraft is that companion, so to say. So tell us, how is digital? You took this TV campaign because viewers are, because they're inside their homes, they're glued to television, television viewership is at all time high. Also, the rates are more palatable, so on and so forth. But tell us, what was the output of this campaign? You know, just to be able to, and you asked this question earlier also, which is the digital, which is the various, you know, the various modes of reaching out to people, you know, digital and digital and anything else. So you know, two of us, you surprisingly never, and this question comes to us and the two of us are not able to pilot it. We have not looked at digital or non-digital as too distinct and will see themselves. For us, it's a bridge, you know, a channel, a mode is a bridge. I have a consumer who's sitting, who has his needs, which are physical needs, functional needs, and he has needs which are emotional needs. You know, I need to be able to use all bridges available to be able to connect to that physical and emotional needs set. Okay, now, what digital does, very nicely is, it works in a power of one, you know, at a micro level, I can actually track it and that, for the data scientists in us gives us a lot of hope and conviction that this is the right piece. But what also happens is that it has its limitations, you know, it's still evolving, evolutionary bridge, you know, the standard bridge is a traditional media bridge, which is there, which also done, still consumes significantly. So if you have to get a reach, if you have to create a reach and an impact, you need mass media options, the traditional media option, the television is possibly the best. If you have to connect emotionally, we believe the best media, I believe the best media is television, which is slightly larger in life and be able to connect emotionally. When it comes to functionality, when it comes to frequency, when it comes to, since you asked a marketing question, I think digital is a brilliant media because I can see how many times have hit Dr. Bhattra repeatedly, which I'm not able to understand from mass media because there I'll get an instant report at some point in time. So I think even in this campaign, just to be able to give you a sense from the money apportionment, 45%, 45% was a digital, you know, people may not realize it, but we actually selected some 11 platforms and he said we only go after those 11 platforms to be able to create a bridge. And both the sides were looking at reach, heavily digital was also looking at frequency, whereas the mass media was creating the people at the emotional level. So when we took out the clarion call of Henter Yahrhan, which is very fine, we said that we heavily use a functional, emotional platform and it took the music as a singular stream. And if you see, we've actually gone live with Geo Sabhan, you know, Geo Sabhan has listed us, Ghana has listed us, Wink has listed us, we're there in YouTube and obviously we were playing, we played some 25,000 spots in television channels across genre. And I do not know whether you're aware of it or not. We are the first brand who actually came with a Hindi Punjabi mix song, which was Henter Yahrhan, which was sung by Durant sisters. I should have listened to it before it, but I'm going to say honestly, I haven't, but I'm curious, but I promise you, I will listen to it after this. Please do, please do, and give us my kids to listen to it, my wife. I have, by the way, Exchange for Media is a business of music site called loudest.in and we every year do a huge conference on the business of music called Music Inc. We've done the third version, we did virtually, but you know, we didn't want, on the world music day, where music meets business, when music meets brand, when music meets technology, when music meets money, it's not, it's what, we're about the business of things. So in fact, the next one, we will definitely, when I'm going to listen to it. But other things that possibly even create a focus, how we are able to connect with that beautiful melody that you created on Henter Yahrhan. And we actually took it in seven different genres about Hindi Punjabi, which was in Bengali, Marathi, the four South Indian languages. And we employed the services of the talent, which was local. So if you, if you go to Marialam, it was Taikudam Bridge, you know, in Punjab, it was Nuran sisters who actually put the song for us. It's a beautiful, it's a very spirited song, which beautifully reflects the spirit of Henter Yahrhan, which is ready for anything. And I think that was our meaning. So the medium policy doesn't matter to us. There's obviously science to digital, there's science to non-digital. And I think, that is our partners at Ogilvy and Mindshare. I think they did a phenomenally good job. And I think the credit goes to the way our partner, which is Good Morning Films, where they were able to, despite the odds, Dr. Bhattaraj, just for your viewers, you know, we actually shot it during the peak of the pandemic. You know, we actually started shooting this video from the first week of May, between 5th of May to 15th of May. And it was shot in three cities. It was shot in Goa Hathi, in Goa, and in Delhi. And you know, the director there has to navigate people who are not able to step out. He was actually stuck in Bombay himself. You know, getting music arranged with new ancestors, composing with the Pichai Korora, getting it lyricized by Shail and the Singh, composing it, you know, and the two of us are reasonably tough taskmasters. So we didn't want to agree to even a single point being up and down. And he navigated all of us and he was able to build this beautiful symphony, which he was so, so fond of. And not only that, he also assisted us, Ogilvy assisted us in getting it customized to seven different languages with their own lyrics, and they don't beat, which is resonating the same narrative, but a different beat. And I think that to us, to get back to your question, digital mass media, they are just bridges. You know, we will choose to deploy them. The aim is Dr. Bhadra's emotional mindset, if it's digital today, it will be non-digital tomorrow, and we need to be able to ensure that we are reaching... I'm a screenager too. I may not be a teenager, but my kids are up, but I am a screenager. So... Sir, how can you say that? You know, age is just a mindset. You know, it needs to be... Are you ready for anything? If I look at it, I think you're a teenager for life. I can kid myself, if I call myself a hairless, toothless infant, but that's after I've had a couple of drinks, you know, not before that, but I'm referring to coffee before, you know. I only drink... A lot of people call me and they say, I'm not very fond of drinking. So you would actually have a title called Coffee with a Jar? No, actually, I'm not a Jar, but it's okay. I have lots of Jar friends. You know, I have to tell you, I was talking to my 12-year-old son last year, and I said, Prasann, his name is Prasann. I said, Prasann, you're Punjabi. He says, no, no, no, no, no, Papa. I am from South Delhi. They're very South Delhi kids, you know, I mean. And, you know, I did grow up in old Gurgaon, where all my classmates were Kadyans, Kattayans, and you know, lots of Jar. And I went to engineering school with lots of Jar, but that's okay. They were fun in there. Some of my closest friends, by the way, Dara and Siddhartha, I know how tough their domain is, but some of my engineering friends, you know, they were the seniors to me and my batchmate, went on to start, you know, April Brands, and some work for large April companies, because I went, me and Nauval went to a textile college before we went to our respective business school. I went to MDI, Nauval went to IMI, and Amit was my MDI batchmate. But, you know, I know Rahul Singh, a beer cafe, used to work for Reebok, right? I don't know if you know that. Winder Singh Prem, who used to be Reebok, is from IMT, is not from my business school, but is a friend. And then another friend of mine who's joined somebody who was an OEM manufacturer. It's called Alsis, Alsis. But basically, they've gone back to doing OEM, because building a brand takes a lot of, you know, it makes a lot of leap. You have to embrace the uncertainty. Yes. His name is Ravish Nanda. He's the junior partner in that. So I understand how tough it is. For example, Shubhinder has a brand, but he's primarily, what I understand from my friends, he's primarily an OEM manufacturer. So, you know, to build a brand takes a lot. That's the point I'm trying to. Now, I want to ask you two questions before I bring in two audience questions. One is, which are the other brands in various categories that you look up to? So that first to you and then to Gaurav and why? And if there is a brand in your category that you look up to, no problems you can mention. Well, that category is a brand that, you know, it's an international brand. It's a brand called Artrix. It's an auto brand based out of the Americas. And that's a brand that, you know, just for the quality of the product and the design part that goes in and, you know, the finesse that every, you know, trim that they use and the thought process that goes behind it. I think that's like a top of mind recall that I have. How do you spell that brand? A-R-C-D-E-R-Y-X, Artrix. So have you been inspired by that brand? No, it's a, you see, if you ask me when we, you know, till five years, seven years ago, I didn't even know the brand, you know, but as we get exposed to more and more outdoor brands, you know, you go to international shows, exhibitions and see, and then you start picking up, you know, what are the brands which are doing pathbreaking stuff in the outdoors. I think that's a brand that resonated in terms of how they were approaching the product. The product philosophy, we are heavily a product-led company, right? We invested in product, you know, one of the anecdotes we have is our first couple of hires were actually designed people when we came and started Minecraft three years ago full-time commercially. At first, a set of hires were actually designed in product, not in sales. We said sales talk, but how we design a product is what we have to, you know, make sure that the foundation of that is right. And I think the product really excites us, you know, the product. So when we see a nice product coming out from a company, both of us gravitated towards product, you know, companies that have really come up with really good products. In Gaurav, which of the brands that you look up to L-Y? So I don't go as a brand, but I go as a business. I think Uniglo has done a phenomenal good job, you know, which is a Japanese fast fashion. When the store opened, I remember my daughter was a young adult, was like so excited, I said, you know, her father or mother were doing something on the company or something, but she's very excited. I mean, she's a millionaire. And they've been typically a Japanese way of doing things, you know, it doesn't even call out a brand, you know, if you wear a shirt of them, you do not even know that's Uniglo. You know, the way they've been passionate about material engineering, I think they've used material engineering as their core foundation. And they've actually delivered material, through material engineering, making products which are there, mass accessible to people. I think that business model has been a, it's not fast fashion at all. It's not like a Zara or H&M, it's actually the counter of that. For example, if you look at the shirt, for example, I wear the formal shirts and you know, what I picked up in 2014, the same shirt is still available in 2019. I just keep on picking up the same thing. So I think that's one of the business models that I've always looked up to. And Gaurav, who are the people that you've looked up to beyond Siddhartha? I know you look up to Siddharth and Siddharth looks up to you in very unique ways, but on a very serious way, who are the people that you learned from, the people you come in contact and, you know, you thought you learned from something from them and kind of implemented that consciously or subconsciously in what you do. Okay, this is the first time. So I looked up, up to my dad, my father, you know, he's been a manager at us. And you know, he's from publishing background and he's a poet. Publishing micro. Yeah, we made it, we made it to the big publishing hub. So hence where you said I'm a Luzala and then in Jaya and everything else. So he knows them personally, most of them, but he's also a poet. And the way he navigates the language in the is something I've always looked up to. And he is one I look up to. And I think that should answer the question Siddharth. And Siddharth, apart from Gaurav, who do I look up to? Mine is very clear. You know, I, you know, whenever I credit my entrepreneurial streak, I give it to my grandfather. And you know, this is a story I've told Gaurav multiple times. You know, when I was a kid at the dining table, he used to run a pharmacy shop in Shimla. I'm from Himachal, Shimla. Right. And, you know, he used to spend time with his grandchildren, but he used to be on phone in those days. You know, I'm talking early 80s with his sons, which is my dad and all. I think the score can, you know, what is the sale that you've done today? You know, that used to be the score, you know. And I think, you know, that those dinner table conversations with them, he passed away when I was 10, 12 years old. But I think, you know, that DNA or that behavioral aspect of entrepreneurship, I always credit him for kind of putting it, you know, putting it into me when I was, you know, still learning how to eat with the spoon. So, fantastic. And if you had to say one good thing about Gaurav, what would it be? One thing about Gaurav. And a serious note, I mean, we can keep doing the banter and it is fun, but on a serious note, what is something that you admire about Gaurav, but you've never told that to Gaurav? Yeah, we don't hold back. If I like something about him or don't like about him, we'll know more. So what is that one thing that makes Gaurav so unique? You said he's the talking type, you're the listening type, but beyond that. No, I think, I think it's the risks that he's willing to take. You know, some of those risks, which I might have to point in time, you know, my cerebral, me who tell me that these are not risks worth taking. But I think the risks, the, you know, all of us like to say we have the 30,000 feet vision, but sometimes he has that spark of a 300,000 feet vision, which I really like about him saying, okay, I've, you know, really up there in the Brahman, and I can see this is going to happen. So that knack sometimes, I like that knack. And I think, you know, beyond that knack, then we can do all the mathematics of how much risk to take or not to take. Okay, conviction and risk taking. Gaurav, what is it something that you like? Which I mentioned, I think he likes my books, all the books that you see behind him, all are stolen from me. So that he bought your legs that I can tell you. So what one quality in Siddharth that you like? Yes, I mentioned that, you know, between the two of us, we've always complimented each other, the brain and heart. And one of the attributes about brain is to be able to put a rational thought process very, very quickly. The heart can actually mislead you a lot. And what I've always relied on him is if somewhere it's not sound, it's going to get taken apart. And if at any point in time I'll be able to convince him, that's it. So, you know, I think he takes time to get convinced. But the fact that he gets convinced, convinces me even more. So I think I really like that he's thought. He's not somebody who they say, hello, Karthik. He's not let us sit in and sleep in peace if it's on protocol. Fantastic. Now, since last we talked about books, I'm a big book. I'm calling normally people steal my books. I buy 50, 60 books in a week, not these days, but normally. And I do read one or two of them. But I kind of feel that if I hold them, it will get into my head and I'll be wise, but I'm working on it for many years. Someday I'll be wise. Maybe when I grow up, I want to be like both of you and be wise, but that's somehow. But what if you recommend one book or two books without that you read recently, or in your journey of help you, what would those be? Okay, so let me tell you, recently, what you do is move you up Ben Horowitz, venture capital drive, A16Z. I read all of it. I read his book is the hard things of hard things and must think about art. I was looking for it because I'm a book alcoholic. You can do a book with me. Your message right here, if you see the post it notes, so they are my hand written post it notes in that book. So that's one that I read recently. I've not read this one though. Yeah, I like it. I like it. I read something by a guy called Kaifuli recently, which is on AI superpower. It's on artificial intelligence. I'm very plainly put, very easy to understand on artificial intelligence and how China has taken the lead on that. It's a guy called Kaifuli. So these are the two, you know, the top of my mind that I like, you know, on the on the light reading side, that couple of ones that I recently read, but mostly scam related books. One was, you know, the billion dollar bill, the one MTV scandal, you know, so I met the main director on it. About three months back. And the other one I had was on the Theranus story. In fact, she used to be, when I bought business, when I would talk of innovation, I would put her out of Brimberg business, fortune for, and I said, we will not build the product. Look at her, you know, and she, you know, I mean, the media was going Rara about it and she learned how to be a big hoax. One of my all-time favorites obviously is, oh, you're not into it by our child. You know, I really like it because it's come, you know, it's come really from the heart. You know, this was his first book, and he really wrote it from the heart on, you know, how he was able to build a business together. So those are my some of mine. And Gaurav Pyars? They have one all-time favorite, which is a book on, it's a kind of philosophy of our life. It's Bach's John Thunderingston Seagal. I gifted it to my son and he is crying, saying, Papa, I don't read books. And I gifted it to him, you know, he said, like, my daughter on the contrary makes up for that, but that's, but I love that book. I read it. Sometimes I go back and read it, that book now. Exactly, it's very, very, very good. That's my all-time favorite. And the second? It's a very short book though. Yeah, that's the beauty of the book. You know, and I think the second one is for me second, but, you know, it's by Nicholas Tallinn. It's the book named Anti-Fragility. And, you know, I could, I remember reading it some three years back. I remember when I got it, I was, you know, see the heart was eyeing that book and I was just going through it carefully. And when this pandemic situation happened, you know, first thing which came to me was, that that beautiful principle of anti-fragility and how you can actually, if you're able to configure yourself to be able to configure for the anti-fragility, how you can do this. But I think it's a brilliant book for people who are struggling to navigate the ambiguity and uncertainty of the pandemic to be able to actually, so I think these two books are what comes to mind. Okay, if you had to give one advice to everyone watching this, especially which is relevant in the last one, 20 days, what would it be? Siddharth, first you and then Gaurav. I think having faith in yourself and perseverance, I think, you know, losing hope is not an option. Losing hope is not an option. You know, there is always, there are always opportunities. You know, you have to open your eyes, you have to be persevered and look for those opportunities you find those opportunities. Okay, Gaurav, yours? I think I touched upon the only advice that I'll have is to get, sharpen the purpose of your life. You know, get, get, get, get out of the ways from purpose which resonates with your belief systems and be passionate in life and if you can combine the two. Gaurav, it's been a pleasure talking to you. I, there are two questions and there is one comment. I'll take the question. S.M. Minakshi is asking, good afternoon. How has the media usage changed pre-COVID and post to it? And what do you think are the media spends versus revenue and consumer, customer behavior? What was the first one again? See, how have basically the consumer behavior changed? Both the question on media spends versus consumer behavior. See, now we spend on media. That's the, you know, that's the, but Gaurav, go ahead. But, Gaurav, you see the consumer behavior changed, I think obviously, as, as was expected. See, what about, what is behavior hinged on? Behavioral, you know, hinges on the attitudes and attitudes are hinging on beliefs. You know, and that's, that's a typical psychology, the way it works. So, you know, what has happened here is the belief system has got a bit shaken on that, you know, something like this, you know, see what has happened, Dr. Bhattra is over the last four decades, literally, I think after, after the two of us are born, which is the emergency. Post-Emergency, something like this has not happened. So, in our, in our generation, something like this has not happened. So, the belief that we constructed is that we're in a bubble. I mean, in the bubble, we, we are, you know, maybe we are, somebody will take care of these things. You know, we are connected and there is enough and more science which is behind it in history and philosophy. What has happened is this pandemic has shaken a lot of these beliefs. So, people are still recouping to the shaken belief system and that's reflecting in behavior patterns becoming very, very uneven and unpredictable. And so, that's one, that's our interpretation to what the, you know, today you'll be smiling and yet tomorrow you'll be extremely frustrated and, and you come out of it in the same place. So, it's become, you know, and the longer it stretches, the longer people will become, is what our take is. That's a consumer behavior and a consumer behavior is this. Today, you will be actually hoarding stuff because somewhere in your mind this stuff is not going to be available and the next two months, you'll not be consuming anything. So, it's very difficult to predict. So, that's one thing I'm very concerned with behavior. Never say, never. One thing you're saying is one clearly said sharpen your purpose and that links up with even in the media. You know, what do you want to achieve with it? You know, I'm sure always there is an ROI question but it is also down from brand building. Now, while your turnover is 1000 crores, possibly your brands are bigger than that. You know, you have to value your brand. Absolutely, but I think on the second question or first question, which is sort of with the media, you know, this time, we very clearly articulated our objectives to be reached led. And it was changed around emotionality, you know, emotional connected between the brand purpose and your deep side of your mindset. But I think that was the same thing. And the campaign is just winding down as it's supposed to speak. Obviously, the client one will never wind down but the campaign will wind down as we speak in July. And the specific metrics of it will come to light whether we know for sure that it's taken the brand equity in one different order altogether. I'm sure it does impact that. Ashish Anand is asking, I have a question. Having an idea is one thing, executing another. How did you go about executing your ideas and giving them shape? Absolutely, I mean execution is key. I mean, that's bang on, right? Ideas like this here, Diamond doesn't, how you execute. And I think the, if you take our last 12, 13 year journey or even the last 120 days, either one you take, right? One common thread you get into is how do you convince a larger team, the teams that we have, on believing in what you are telling them and then harnessing that power of people to get into execution, right? Some of the best guys, the team that got with me and Ben, are people whom we hired at very young ages. And the reason we hired them at young ages is not because they're malleable, right? They don't come with preconceived notions. So we traded youth for, in a lot of places, for domain expertise. We said, okay, ideally I would have had domain expertise, but if I have to have a trade-off, we've traded youth, we've taken youth at the cost of domain expertise. And we said supply chain and I'll seek jaya. If you sit in supply chain, you'll seek jaya, right? And I think that has brought in a very different mindset on execution because they've not been shackled by the way they've been used to doing certain things, right? So they can do what is classically called blue sky thinking. Exactly. There are no constraints. It's not like that. It's not like that. Absolutely. Absolutely. They're not holicows, right? They're not like that. So in execution, when they get into execution, they start from a very basic question like the two of us will always start. Saying, if we're going to make a respirator, how do we make it? Let's get into understanding. Let's not say we'll sell five crore respirators. Let's understand how is it made and when people are willing to roll off the sleeves. You know, if you're seeing in an office when our office used to work, you'll come, you'll see people with road sleeves, you know, even on this problem, I have a road sleeve because that's the philosophy of the company that we expect our leaders to be completely clued in on what is happening on the ground. If a head of manufacturing, he's come from a non-manufacturing background. But if the tailor tells him that bossy and needle is not working, he should be able to sit on that machine and tell him that he can do that. And that is how you get the, you know, that is how leaders are made. That is how you get people to follow you because you know that, you know, there is that passion that you rolled off the sleeves. You know what needs to be done to get it done. And I think that's a very, very core skill set that we have developed that, you know, execution Thank you so much, Siddharth. Thank you so much, Gaurav. It's been a pleasure talking to you. I'm really looking forward to seeing you sometimes and having you guys buy me coffee. And you're in Bangalore, right? Yes. So Bangalore is a lovely city. I hope sometime soon I can come to Bangalore and see you guys or if you're in Delhi, we'll get to see you. I wish you luck in your endeavor to pursue your passion, to be purposeful and to be staying persistent in whatever you want to achieve. I hope you build a global brand from India and I can see the ambition and the fact that you're very, you know, grounded. I'm sure you'll be able to build a very big impact in whatever you do and numbers are, you know, subsequent, you know, byproducts. So I wish you luck. I've enjoyed this conversation on a Monday afternoon. It's been a magnificent Monday. If I can say that and I wish you luck. Look forward to chatting with you guys again. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And as, you know, I'll join Gaurav. The only thing I see from anywhere is books. That's the only thing I see. I, you know, Gaurav, you and me will do it. I'll give you a lot more books. Take care. Thank you so much. Good to speak to you guys. Bye. Cheers.