 Good morning, we'll give folks a few more minutes to come on in. Hello, hello. Excellent. Uh, Richie, I'm pretty sure your mic actually works. Give me, like, speak to me. Test, test, test. Okay, perfect. Yeah, yeah. You were a little quiet, but that's fine. Just checking. That was all. Okay, cool. I can up the volume for my microphone if you want to. No, it's not. Okay, hold on. No need, no need. You are fine. It was a moment of like, hmm, maybe things aren't working this morning. Who knows? Okay, yeah. Zoom and Linux, like, they deliberately try to break it as much as they can. Yes, welcome to this, this Tuesday that feels like a Monday, all of that. Yes. You mean the three rounds of capture? I had to go for even rounds of unlocked into Zoom? Yes. I know we've got some folks that won't be joining us this morning, but I'll give folks probably another minute or so and we'll get started. Okay, I have four after on mine and I'm not seeing too many people come on in, so I'm going to kick us off, Richie, unless you've got any objections and want to wait longer, because you are speaker today. You're also muted, so I guess it's fine. I'm fine. If you could just reload the slides once. Sorry. Oh, sure. Okay. Give me a second then. Fine. The running joke of these calls, but... Every time, every single time. Yeah, no, it's fine. No, it's usually I don't, but this time I literally stopped typing while already on this call. Easy day. But I'm done, so you can reload. I didn't get started then. Good morning. Welcome all of you. For normal antitrust policy notice, meeting logistics, you are here. You have made it to this meeting, or you're watching on the recording later, which is also fine. This will be updated over in the TOC public working doc all as well. And our agenda today is... Richie's going to be talking about open explainer. So we'll take questions as well. And one note. This is our last meeting with the summit of our TOC members. So big thanks to Matt Klein, who's here with us today. And yeah, thank you for your work. So Richie, I'll hand off to you. Okay, thank you. And also we have Steve Flanders here. So if I get anything wrong on the open telemetry side, that's perfect. Of course, you can check me immediately. That's really good. And I mean, so yeah, if you could go one forward, please. So I was asked by, I think it was Liz initially, to give a quick overview of what all the open things are. That's what I'm aiming to do. Feel free to interrupt it anytime. There might be mistakes. Chris, this was done not at leisure, those slides. So there might be dragons and something wrong. And if anything is weird or if you have any questions or anything, feel free to just interrupt or to just write it down and ask at the end. Both is fine. Yeah. Super short history of all that naming confusion, because we have so many opens here. As is usual with buzzwords and open is a buzzword by now. It gets used a lot. You saw this initially with open source, then open standards. You see it outside of scenes here as well, with for example, open stack and open TSTP. And there are many, many, many, many, many more examples of this, which doesn't lead to less confusion. Let's put like this, especially if the similar terms are used in pretty much similar fields. Yeah. So open metrics is standardizing the Prometheus wire format and evolving the Prometheus wire format. Open service mesh, yeah. Yeah, it's like it's endless. At some point it's probably makes like, but you always have this, the pendulum swings eternal death. Take breeze that goes back and forth. We will have more unique names again. And then we have more descriptive names again and then it goes back and forth. So yeah, open metrics is focused on the Prometheus wire format and evolving that open tracing was focused on standardizing code interfaces, API interfaces and such of various tracing libraries within the cloud native space and the wider cloud native space. Open census was about open sourcing senses, which is Google internal. And you can think of this roughly as similar to how Borg is the closed Google version of what is now Kubernetes in the open and how Borg Mon is the closed version of what is now Prometheus in the open and how you can argue that Monarch is in part what stack driver is not in the open but at least as an offering to the outside world. And that's not fully correct. Census or open census is an effort to bring or was an effort to bring the census library set into the open. And open telemetry in turn is a merger of open tracing and open census. Next slide please. So going a little bit in depth on the open metrics side. Back when CNCF was pretty new, there was a large political problem around anything supporting anything called Prometheus like massive except for influx data. At some point everyone was trying really, really hard to stay away from supporting anything which had the Prometheus name in it, which is part of why Dan and Chris who's also here asked Prometheus team to standardize the wire format outside of the Prometheus team to just have an independent standard with an independent name where you have a thing which you can support without having to carry that Prometheus name which obviously if you want to have a competing project or even sell a competing product can be harmful to your marketing efforts. Of course you basically have to admit that you're supporting something which someone else came up with which is never nice. That's not a technical concern to be clear yet it is a concern which needs to be taken seriously. Myself I needed an IETF RFC of course I was still working at an ISP and the language in which you speak to network vendors is RFCs and you slip that one RFC into a tender and all of a sudden they're required by contract to support that thing so that was the intention there and how the open name came Chris convinced me that open metrics is the name of course I wanted to have Epimetheus but as a brother to Prometheus we ended up with open metrics instead which is fine I guess. Next slide please. Open metrics is involved and will remain 100% focused on the Promcor Thanos ecosystem so it's basically aligned with what Prometheus Cortex Thanos and also Kubernetes second implementation do and want and it's more of a follow or a coordination and not so much a trailblazing where open metrics defines where Prometheus needs to go it's the other way around. The one notable exception is exemplars which we on the open metrics side took and put into into open metrics and as such Prometheus Cortex Thanos took over. Funnily enough that is a direct result of open metrics and open senses talking back in I think it was 2017 about potentially merging and that was one of the highlight features which made clear sense so we took that over into open metrics even though we never merged or anything. Open metrics is pretty opinionated about the happy path and is doing the tunics thing of do one thing and do it well. Stable release happened last year end of last year. Currently client Golang course that is relevant to CNCF is the 29th most used Go library on GitHub. It had open metrics support since roughly 2018-2019 depending on when you say it was supported and full support is within this quarter. There were quite some concerns about the openness of open metrics which I get and I don't believe in not talking about stuff so here it is. I am too much context sorry that is flipped was in our heads and even people who only had a short absence of or from the calls found it impossible to re-on board themselves because we had so much context in our head and we're not making enough progress with writing this down which is obviously on us but at that point we were four people doing this on the side so yeah it is what it is we thought we would be quicker writing it down and then helping people on board from that which didn't work out in the end as you probably noticed. The other thing which didn't help is that 2019 was absolutely hell for myself with yeah burnout, depression, acute loss of hearing everything that's better now but still it's part of that story and part of why we weren't able to do it as quickly and as openly as we intended. And also there were some attempts to try and take open metrics away from Prometheus something which took quite some energy to just not fight but still reject or to make sure we kept the focus on Prometheus and honestly we overshot in protecting this Alina and such we talked about this in the past also know more context of this it is what it is next slide please open to open telemetry and Steve feel more than welcome to interject at any point or to just take completely over of course that's just me talking about someone else so open telemetry is intended largely as a data pipeline set of libraries what have you for the three pillars metrics logs and traces with some other things for like errors and such but those are this is the main focus here we are focusing on the metrics side course that is the direct comparison there is a open telemetry native metrics format which is called OTLP there have been many recent meetings between the Prometheus Cortex Fanos Kubernetes second instrumentation groups and also open telemetry to try and hammer out where to go from here and how to increase cooperation as much as we can the last meeting just to show of course that is a nice number to show how committed on the Prometheus side we are the last meeting was last Friday that was five hours in the night for EMEA most of Prometheus team are in EMEA and yet most of Prometheus team showed up and stayed till the end at least a few of us myself included during that and I found that very good and very very positive that open telemetry reiterated their commitment to Prometheus which makes sense within CNCF I guess yet no king making and such so still it makes sense for them to be able to experiment with OTLP and do things outside of this obviously we still have basically the same technical incomparable I can't English technical incomparable in you know the word you can read it I can't speak it sorry between the different projects the most the strongest ones would be that the histograms are flipped and it's mathematically impossible to have to convert from open telemetry histograms into Prometheus compatible histograms as of right now there's a host centric model which is not bad from open metrics and Prometheus point of view of course we can take whatever data yet it might prove cumbersome with like serverless and such so that is one of the things which is on the agenda and there is like more data formats which need to be recast and one thing which was raised by Kubernetes is I wasn't aware of this beforehand that Kubernetes has a hard requirement in process metric endpoints which currently is not something which open telemetry can provide so it cannot be a drop in replacement what was stated from open telemetry side during the last call is that something stable sorry I forgot the word that the plan on open telemetry side is to have something usable specific whatever stable enough to really drop in at the latest by end of year this year yeah next slide please this is now coming to an ask from both open telemetry and Chris and Prometheus team also talked about this recently there are many interpretations of what compatible actually means and we identified quite a few like for example on the API level how do I talk to the libraries in the code can I just replace it would I need a wrapper things like for example in process things like the wire formats things like the underlying data formats there are many different ways to define compatible as it were and why we do have quite some technical guidelines and such and why we have all the reference documentation which for example data doc used to implement open metrics on their end we don't have something where you can self certify or certify like as a service like Julius did it for prom kill which most of you will know about but this is a focus area for this year for Prometheus not just on on the levels which are important to open telemetry or just but also on other levels like for example how to get data out in such remote read write prom kill blah blah blah to to enable this to be more of an independent ecosystem where where people can just test against canonical test suites instead of having to ask us or or look at the reference code all the time that's it I think yes it is so questions corrections probably let's start with corrections first nothing cool okay so yeah questions discussion whatever Richie thank you for the presentation I guess I have a I have a little question about the about the name open so we have it in in in so many in so many projects and Katie just mentioned in the slack that there's also open service mesh there's no trademark on this name right and we'll probably continue having projects with this name so I wonder what would be the best way we're going to share this presentation with with where I was on the call and others but what would be the best way to to put it maybe up in writing or put it somewhere on the website for others to reference and to understand like if I'm a project and I'm picking a name like I probably wouldn't want to pick open as there are so many projects having it I want to avoid the confusion that's that's part of why I wanted to have a unique name or the descriptive one but we are where we are and I don't have complaints I'm on the there being a trademark team which is why I have quite some context on how you as trademark verse but please anyone correct me because I'm not a lawyer in particular not a trademark lawyer by having an establishing prior use you can use this when you register trademark even late at the latest stage so we don't have to register it right now you can register it later as per CNCF policies sandbox projects do not get a registered trademark that happens upon graduation we did have discussions with CNCF about pulling about pulling the trademark registration for open metrics earlier than graduation for the simple reason that there is so much movement around the whole project and so much use of the name already as as shown in the end user radar and such fifth place I think like it is already a household name or it is already an active use in the end it was decided that that we should wait for graduation before we get before we go the way of grabbing the trademark but yeah from from my perspective as the project assigns all rights to CNCF the only entity which has any right to the name is CNCF we have Chris here so yeah no that sounds about right Richie you know we have definitely rights to to the name if we so wish to pursue it but I think in the case of open metrics and any kind of spec project like that is understanding the difference between the actual name of the project and potentially any kind of conformance mark down the down the line that you may want to have so this is kind of the way to think about this is there's a difference between Kubernetes and then Kubernetes certified those are two different marks that we have registered for different purposes and just to be clear that is already test suite for open metrics the intent is to use precisely that to have a open metrics compatible or open metrics native or open metrics certified or open metrics whatever um that's still in the air but that's also something which will be done within this year obviously Chris um with with all uh with all the actors entering this space it sadly has been shown that we need to be a little bit more more self asserted the sign of success Richie it's a good problem to have but still it is something which we need to solve um that we need to be a little bit more yep native metrics no way honestly we did consider renaming course there were too many opens but if you look at the amount of of of references to the name it's way too late by now the last mail in the coffin for any rename was was the end user server of course there's no way we can rename this now like absolutely not any other questions you Richie have a question so you have the open tracing project in incubation now and then open telemetry is in sandbox but open telemetry includes open tracing is there any plan to face out maybe open tracing make that open telemetry I think I know the answer perfect happy answer that one so yeah that was announced as part of open telemetry being formed so you should think of open telemetry as the next major version of both open tracing and open census so yes the goal is that open telemetry will move into incubation and open tracing will eventually kind of phase out so that is actively underway right now the community is working on taking the best of both open tracing and open census and merging it together and we're very close in regards to that and then there'll be further announcements about long-term viability we also announced that there will be deprecation and backwards compatibility support so there'll be at least two years where you can continue using either open tracing or open census and there will be a backwards compatible shim available in open telemetry for you thank you and Amy could you stop screen sharing so we see more faces thank you perfect you have what we have anyone else any more questions now's the time yep looks like that is it then so maybe yeah just two pieces of information a the standardization effort within ITF is ongoing I will be talking during the ITF meeting in March I think about the whole thing it's already been submitted blah blah blah as part of the ID process the other thing for future work for open metrics one of the highlight features will be the new high cardin or high resolution histograms which is currently being worked on within Prometheus will then be talked about between Prometheus Cortex and its instrumentation and then basically specified in open metrics again this will be trailing more trailblazing but this is the next major thing for just to see the trajectory if it's relevant it probably wasn't for this one sorry but yeah whatever now you know one note our next meeting is a closed meeting to review the sandbox applications so if folks want to be able to apply for sandbox this would be the week and that's pretty much it any other comments questions things we need to cover today all right then I will let everyone go good to see you all thank you thank you bye all thank you bye thanks