 Your vehicle drove up the side of Jessica Lloyd's house. Your boots walked to the back of Jessica Lloyd's house. This is getting beyond my control. Today we're going to do something a little bit different than what we usually do. There wasn't a whole lot going on in pop culture this week. So we decided we'd talk about one of our favorite things in the whole wide world, interrogation. Deciding which interrogation video to break down wasn't hard at all because you let us know what you wanted to see in the comments. And when the panelists speak, we listen. So we're going to talk about the interrogation of Colonel Russell Williams, a longtime panelist favorite. You might think that's going to be pretty exciting, but it's not going to be exciting. It's going to be horrifically boring. It's what we like. There's nothing to do in pop culture, so we're going to nerd out on it. There's a lot of silence in the videos we're going to be watching. That's because nobody's talking. And that uncomfortable silence is what we feed on. So again, we're going to talk about body language, but more than that, we're going to talk about interrogation. All right. You ready? Here we go. I'm Scott Rouse, my body language expert and analyst, and I train law enforcement, the military, and interrogation in body language. And I created the number one online body language course, BodyLanguageTactics.com with Greg Hartley. Mark? I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. I help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, and gain credibility every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7, Chase. I'm Chase Hughes. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. I teach intelligence agencies and the general public in extreme forms of persuasion, interrogation, and people reading. Greg? Greg Hartley. I'm a former army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor. I've written 10 books on body language and behavior and put together this course, the number one body language course online, BodyLanguageTactics.com with Scott Rouse. I spend most of my time on Wall Street and in corporate America. All right, today we're going to talk about a guy named Colonel Russell Williams. And we got the panelists, we get, you know, tons of those every week, every asking for this. So there wasn't a whole lot going on in pop culture. So what we decided we would do was focus on this one, on Russell Williams, because what it is, is it's an interrogation. And most of the time we focus just on body language or mostly on body language. But this time we're going to focus on interrogation because we get a lot of requests for that as well. So today it's going to be a little bit boring. We're going to geek out and nerd out on interrogation and you'll learn a lot from it. But we will be talking about body language, but not as much as we usually do. It's going to be mostly focused on interrogation. Greg, you got anything you want to say? Yeah, so guys, I'm a pig in mud here. I spent most of my life doing this. Mark, you not being an interrogator need to be the guy who keeps us sane and makes us not go too deep because three of us have spent our entire lives here and I spent more than most people's lifetime doing this crap. So we're going to love it. We're going to dig into it. We'll nerd out a little. Mark, keep us at the body language in the same part and don't let us go too deep. I'll do that. All right, you guys ready? Yeah. Here we go. I'm just trying to see if you hear us. The guy who was speaking with me whatever night that was was Russ as well. Oh yeah. Took every number I had. Yeah, now they were doing some pretty thorough interviews that night. Yeah, absolutely. I was glad to see it. I'm just going to move your gloves in. That's a little microphone just to make sure there's nice and clear. As you can see here, everything in this room is videotaped and audio taped. Check. You've been interviewed by the police in a room like this before? I have never been interviewed like this. Oh, no? Okay. No. Let's get this set up here. I guess the closest to interview by NIS for top secret clearance. Oh yeah. All right, well again Russell, I appreciate you coming in an investigation like this. I mean, I'm sure you can appreciate it's been big news. Yeah. Especially down the Belleville way. And obviously our approach to cases like this is that we don't give up on somebody being alive until we get evidence that they're not. So because of that, we're treating Jessica's case as an emergent situation obviously. So we're fast forwarding things that we might normally take our time with. And that's why we're here on a Sunday afternoon. So again, I appreciate it. We're gonna do a pretty thorough interview today. Okay. The reason for that is because the last thing we want is to be calling people back again and again and again. Okay. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna go over a number of things and I'm gonna explain with all those art to you. Okay. I'm a big coffee guy. I don't know if you're a coffee guy or something. I didn't want to drink in front of you, so. No, I appreciate that. All right, go ahead. I guess they're definitely are they black? Yeah, they're just black with sugar. Sir, do you want to say? Gum, just a piece of gum. Well, there's not because they're everyone a toss or whatever. I appreciate that. All right, and again, like I said, this interview is gonna be very thorough. But again, I have a simple rule when I talk to people. It's I'm sure you're the same way. I treat everybody with respect. They don't ask you to do the same for me. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna start off by going through what your rights are. Okay, just like everybody else. All right, Greg, you want to go first? Sure, now here guys, you're gonna hear the interrogation instructor to me. I'm gonna tell you things you may or may not want to hear and Mark, keep me honest here. But interrogation is a process. Everybody thinks it's voodoo and the guy just says what he wants to say. And that process, regardless of what you call it, will fall into a handful of categories. It starts off with establishing control. And by establishing control, I mean put a fence around what we're going to do and how we're gonna behave. We always also establish identity. We make sure we're talking to the right person. This is the interrogation cycle. Then we establish rapport. That's small talk and it means nothing. It's simply me trying to get you into a place where you feel comfortable. Then I run an approach and I'll go through approaches as we run through here today. But approaches are psychological ploys. Things like fear up, fear down. About pride and ego up, pride and ego down. Futility and I can list them all off their 14. I'll go through them as we go through here because he's gonna use about seven of them if I remember right. And then once I get the approach going I start my questioning technique. But I never forget the approach that's working and I keep reinforcing it. It's an approach, questioning, extract information, redrive the approach. And then once I get what I need, I terminate. Intermination quite simply means finish the conversation. This has use in daily life. I use it in corporate America to teach people to run businesses. Quite simply use the same basic process. I'll run back through that as we go through here. But I want you to get your head around established control, established ID, established rapport, run an approach, questioning, and then we'll see termination at the end. He starts off in his establishing control by not using this guy's title. The minute you start using a title you put a guy on notice and he straightens his uniform and goes back to who he is. But when you call him Russell you've taken him out of that uniform and he's a human being and you're starting down that way. He's starting by developing that rapport. Then I always said rapport doesn't need to be positive. It can be negative. Hey, scumbag, sit in that chair and answer my question. I had enough of you. That's a way of approaching rapport as well. But he immediately begins collecting information and you'll see that this colonel's face is straight on and he does something really dumb, really dumb. And that's chew gum because your jaw works at the rate your brain works. And you can watch it as he goes through. It's gonna ramp up and then stop. And it'll be a really good indicator. I'm gonna tell you that based on my experience I would just about guarantee you that Colonel Russell Williams is resistance trained. There are a couple of things that jump off the plate at me and I'm not gonna point those out simply because when this guy starts off, he's not your friend. He's setting up the parameters. He's establishing control. And he even smooths when he reads your rights. Hey, we do this for everybody. The only real immediate jump off the plate from the colonel is he does a resume statement as you would call it, Scott or Chase. And he tries to save some face by saying when I did my top secret clearance interviews the only time I've been this way. Well, there you go. That right there saying, look, I'm trustworthy. Look, I'm a man of God. Look out for me. That's the beginning of this. And I'll leave it at that because there's a ton of other stuff here I don't wanna jump into. But this is a great start. Remember the process because the process is gonna make a difference here. And then I'll loop back at the end of this and give you how you can use this in your daily life in meetings as soon as we finish this section. If you don't wanna watch that skip over it. Scott, what do you got? All right, this is all of us. It's one of our favorite interrogations of all times because it's executed brilliantly. Everything from top to bottom is just perfect. So let's start off with when he's building a rapport. He does, he throws so much stuff in there. The part about the coffee, right there he's putting in the law of reciprocity because what he's getting ready to say is as we go, when I have a thing and I'm sure you're just like me you treat everyone with, I treat everyone with respect and I'm gonna treat you with respect and then he gives them the coffee as they're doing that. Oh, because later on that's gonna come into play. He's setting up all these things psychologically that are gonna come back into play later on. Now the table where he's sitting, a lot of times on, like on TV you'll see someone sitting directly across the table from like here, I've got a little table here and you'd be sitting there and I'd be sitting here. That's one way of doing it. But the thing is what you wanna do, this guy's done perfectly. He's set this guy sort of in the corner and he's at the corner of the table talking to him. So there's no table in the way but he still has the table there to show that he's the guy in charge because the other guy, the suspect doesn't have the table but the interrogator does. So he at least has his arm out and has all this stuff on it and spread this stuff out. So it looks like there's a lot going on there. So he's set that into play like Greg was saying earlier and he's gonna go through these things one at a time. He's, in other words, he's told him where to sit because when you walk in, the interrogator's chair is way over there and he walks in right there to where that chair. So he just knows naturally where to sit down. So that's really great. Now as we go through this, pay attention to the tone of voice of both of these guys. Number one, listen to the interrogator. What was his name, what would you say his name was? It's Jim Smith. Jim Smith. Yeah, DS, Jim Smith. Yeah, let me tell you something. But anyway, so listen to his tone of voice. It doesn't change. Just toward the end it changes a little bit and I'll explain why in a little while. But he comes in with the same tone of voice and he looks like Michael from the office, you know, on the TV show, he's not. But he comes on and he looks like an accountant and his voice is just like, you get the feeling, you don't get the feeling this guy is a detective. You don't get the feeling you're gonna go to prison talking to this guy. You get the feeling you're gonna talk about what you did this year in taxes. So as he goes along and listen to his tone of voice, it's so important because he's completely setting this guy up which we'll see at the end when all these things we're seeing here now we'll come back around and he'll use him at the end. I'll stop there. Chase, what do you got? Yep, agree with you guys so far. And one of the things that we look for as interrogators is this rapid head movement in response to your voice. So he's looking in the other way and the interrogator starts talking and there's a jerk to look. This rapid response, jerky responses and the quick movements is a way above baseline. And he's a colonel, but he's not a colonel in this room and the interrogators made that very clear. So he's building authority and credibility with his clearance. And I call this gesture conformity when he's nodding quickly. There's the time between an ask and a non-verbal response is very quick, less than a quarter of a second. So one of the first things I teach people to start looking for in the interrogation room when you're gonna have compliance or not is gesture conformity. Well, are there these little quick movements? And guilty people do this a lot more often than innocent people, a lot. But as far as the interrogator goes, he is doing exactly what he's supposed to do. He's building rapport, talking about respect and gaining respect and lowering barriers. And he's starting to do another thing, which is understanding. You have to understand that person, their life circumstances. We're gonna talk about that ad nauseam probably in a few minutes. I have no idea, but I'm sure we're gonna get there. And we'll get to a point where we understand that person. And during the small talk that Greg was talking about a second ago, this is where we see the baseline. Are his hands crossing his body? No. Are his hands covering his genitals? No. He's very open. He gestures with his hand while he's talking. That's great. And when we get down to that understanding that person, that's when we as interrogators have to say things like this isn't a big deal. Anybody could have done this under the same circumstances and those kinds of things. I'll leave it at that. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so first of all, to Greg's point, who have we got in the room? Yes, we've got DS, what did I say? Jim Smith, fantastic job there. Yes, Colonel Russell Williams. So we might call him Colonel Russell Williams throughout this and he's not a colonel anymore. He is inside. His medals were struck. He is now not associated with the military service at all. In fact, all his uniforms were incinerated in the Trenton incinerator. So he has absolutely zero association anymore to the Canadian armed services. But at times we may refer to him as Colonel because it's important that we do. So you can see exactly what's happening here in terms of the lowering of power and how he's resisting by taking the power back. So DS Smith calls him Russ and takes away that rank, gives him a short name. He instantly talks about another Russ in the police force that he was talking through. So he makes a link, instantly a social link with another Russ in the police force, instantly countermeasuring the loss of status there. And what you're gonna get throughout this is this idea of losing control and gaining control. And in fact, what the colonel needs to do here is to make himself a very unattractive subject. The idea is, is that if you make yourself unattractive that the interrogator would go off and find somebody else. It's like, this is too hard. Have we got somebody else? Cause this is just annoying to do this. Can we swap this out for a different one? So he's taking this tack of being unattractive. What the DS needs to do here is to create a sense of futility. Like it is now futile to try and get out of that. And he does that by the end, and we'll see this right at the end of that, how it becomes utterly futile trying to get out of this. But as it transpires at this moment, rank is taken away. He then tries to create a social link through this idea of Russ, very skillful. Ever been interviewed in a room like this that's designed to lose control, to take control away from me. He says, no, no, I haven't been smiles up at the camera. No, I haven't. And then he brings in NIS and top security clearance and brings back that winning back of status. So this for me is just this interplay of power going on here to work out who's gonna be in control of this moment. To Scott's point of the coffee there and using the coffee to win rapport. Look what he does with that coffee, okay? He asks, is it black? Yeah, it's black with sugar. He then doesn't drink it, okay? He's taken the gift, but he's having power by denying himself the gift of the coffee. He'll have the coffee when he wants to have the coffee. Somebody not resisting that interrogation would probably get straight into the coffee. Yeah, the guns may be a bad idea, but at least he's in control of that gun. At least that's something he can self soothe with and actually create an experience through his own control of that and control the coffee. So he's been pretty smart here. The unfortunate thing for him is he doesn't know what they have or what they're about to get. And also I would suggest he's arrogant and that arrogance, that feeling that he's better than DS Smith here is gonna cause him a lot of problems down the line. So there, that's what I got for ya. Yeah, so guys, two things. First, it's a compliance the way he uses the coffee. It's a compliance training method. He didn't offer him, hey, would you like some coffee with cream or sugar? Would you like some black coffee with sugar? That's a compliance thing. That's number one. Yeah, you can have anything you want as long as it's black. You know, that's Henry Ford 101. You can have any color you want as long as it's black. It's a compliance training thing. The second one, Mark, you just hit one of my favorite and hardest to get people capable of doing is the futility approach. The futility approach is one of the most powerful in all of interrogation, but people get to this point, they're like the Borg from some Star Trek show saying resistance is futile. And you wanna just slap them on the head. It is a very subtle, very nuanced approach and wait and you'll see this guy in full. Hey, do you guys mind if I do the meeting thing very quickly? Just say how this works in the meeting. No dude, I don't. There you go. Okay, cool. I'll run through it very quickly then. So I said, you can use this in your daily life. And we said, we start off with establish ID. Then we go to establish or establish control. Then we go to establish ID, establish a poor question. And if we walk that over to now your normal daily life, we would say in a meeting you can establish identification because what we mean by that is who's in the meeting we wanna make sure everyone who's there belongs there. And there's someone who was invited. If you have an opposing counsel and you don't know they're a lawyer, then you need to clear that up. Then we do something called an upfront contract. In that meeting we say, there's always somebody in control of a meeting is just a matter of whether you choose to take it. If you're in control, you say, hey, Chase, do I have an hour of your time? If the guy says yes, he's not gonna get up when things get hot and when he gets upset, he's gonna sit there through that hour and you're gonna get to go through the things you want to do. Then you run through a list of agenda items. You take that list of agenda items and say, Chase, do you agree that one, two, three, four, five and six are important? If Chase says yes, then you say, okay, then we're good. And I might even say, Chase, are they in the right order? Are they in the right sequence? Is this the right list and in the right sequence? And once he says yes, now we have a contract. He's given me time. He's agreed to what I want to talk about. Guess what? I'm now in control of the entire environment. I can walk him through every one of those agenda items, operating according to the plan we've agreed on. And if things get too confusing and too deep, I can say, hey, how about we park that until later? Or is that more important than everything else on list? It's a powerful way of taking what we do in interrogation and using it in your daily life. So establishing identification, getting an upfront contract with a timeline, with agenda items you agree to in list and sequence, staying on the agenda, and parking anything that doesn't work. It's something I use in everyday life in corporate America and you can use it too. I'm just trying to see if there is. I was speaking with, whatever night that was, was for us as well. Oh yeah. I took every number I had. Yeah, now they were doing some pretty thorough interviews that night. Yeah, absolutely. I was glad to see it. I'm just gonna move the gloves in. That's a little microphone just to make sure there's nice and clear. As you can see here, everything in this room is videotaped and audio taped. Check. You've been interviewed by the police in a room like this before? I have never been interviewed like this. Oh no? Okay. No. Let's get this set up here. I guess the closest interview by NIS for Top Secret Clarence. Oh yeah. All right, well again Russell, I appreciate you coming in an investigation like this. I mean, I'm sure you can appreciate it's been big news. Yeah. Especially down at Belleville Way. And you know, obviously our approach to cases like this is that we don't give up on somebody being alive until we get evidence that they're not. So because of that, we're treating Jessica's case as an emergency situation obviously. So we're fast forwarding things that we might normally take our time with. And that's why we're here on a Sunday afternoon. So again, I appreciate it. We're gonna do a pretty thorough interview today. Okay. The reason for that is because the last thing we want is to be calling people back again and again and again. Okay. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna go over a number of things and I'm gonna explain what all those are to you. Okay. I'm a big coffee guy. I don't know if you're a coffee guy or something. I didn't want to drink in front of you, so. No, I appreciate that. All right, go ahead. I guess they're definitely are they black? Yeah, they're just black with sugar. I'm just gonna go ahead and get my probably have it a little bit. Sir, do you want, sir? Gum, just a piece of gum. Well, there's napkins there. Do you want to toss it or whatever? I appreciate that. All right. And again, like I said, this interview is gonna be very thorough. But again, I have a simple rule when I talk to people. It's, I'm sure you're the same way. I treat everybody with respect. I don't wanna ask you to do the same for me. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna start off by going through what your rights are. Okay? Just like everybody else. Excellent. Help you. We're good? Love it. And essentially, Russell, in a nutshell, that's what we wanted to talk to you about. Okay? Those four cases are of concern to us. And you know, you've kind of almost hit the nail on the head about some of our issues to kind of make us want to talk to Russell Williams. Okay? Cause essentially, there was a connection between you and all four of those cases. Would you agree? Geographically or? And then I guess I drive past. Yes, I would have to say there was a connection, yeah. Yeah. And that's why, I'll be quite frank with you. That's why things kind of evolved when the officers talked to you on Thursday night. We kind of went from there because when, I think you discussed with him the fact that you were a colonel at the base. I was in uniform at the time, so. Yeah, so pretty obvious, right? So essentially, then the connection with Ms. Como was made. Okay, Chase, what do you got? We've got the interrogator going back to calling him Russell, which I just think was a, just a slip, every one of us has made mistakes, way worse than that. Cause it's very on the fly this job. He's non-convertational and explanatory, but we see Russ going into fig leaf mode already. The hands are kind of coming in front of the genitals. The interrogator copies some of this behavior, I think unconsciously because it was probably involved in training. He's done it so often and interrogation said it's an unconscious thing. You never want any of these skills. If you're learning behavior profiling, you're learning how to read people, you don't want them to live behind your eyes. You want the skills out here to where it's a natural thing. The interrogator here is using lots of softening language in the statements. He's saying, I think possibly sort of essentially, he says kind of three times and then finishes with an upward tone. So this is interesting that he establishes authority and then gains a little rapport, just pretending this is what I would call a Colombo method where he's just figuring out, let me, I'm not really sure about a lot of this stuff. Can you confirm some of this for me? And I think that's really what's going on here, but I know exactly what Greg's gonna say here. So Greg, I'll pass it to you first. Yes, I'm gonna leave a lot here, but I'm gonna hit a few things. First thing he does is call out third party. Third party is the right way to go when you're trying to build rapport and trust. What he's really trying to do is to establish a new normal. What I always say is what we do best is we create a reason why you're allowed to do the wrong thing. If it's all confrontational, this is why I always say, if you think confrontation is a way to interrogate, you're missing the boat, it's about trust. Once you get the person to a point that they trust you and they're bonded to you, it's hard as hell for them not to tell you the truth. And what this guy's doing very well is that, he's calling out a third party that's gonna become the bad guy, the booger man, the boogie man, the guy out in the woods. So he first starts by saying they. You hear him use the word they. And he use a lot of soft language Chase. I love what he does with his soft peddling. I'm also gonna tell you that interrogators are kind of like swans. When they're good, they look elegant and floating nicely along the top of the water. But if you look under the water, their little feet are paddling like hell to keep them moving along. And I want you to start watching for mistakes he makes. I see them every time. He does great recovery, but you'll see his respiration increase and you'll see the interrogator starting to go a little bit himself. He controls it very well, but pay attention. His mirroring, I'm with you Chase. The mirroring is beautiful. He crosses his body. It becomes second nature. You interrogate 100 people. You'll get to where you know that when they do something, you do something. You'll change your cadence. His cadence has slowed already. He's trying to get this guy off of his high horse off of being a colonel and down to being a guy who's in trouble and he's talking slower, moving him more into that plane. In the old days, it would have called kinesthetic plane. You get a guy down to where his eyes drop down, left down, right down, left down, right just before you get to pre-confession and you start that by talking lower and slower. Watch the colonel respond. Respiration is up. He's crossed his torso, put his hands in his crotch. Just what you're saying, Chase. I call it the jaw rate or the chew rate. His chew rate is increasing like all hell now. And even more importantly, he's rolled his gum to between his front teeth and he's focusing on it. That's why I said it was a bad idea for him. When you're trying to resist interrogation, there's a lot of tricks you use and we teach a lot of them. What we never teach is how to interrogate. We teach how to resist interrogation. And when you know both, it's very interesting. I actually once had a very interesting line in Spin Magazine when they asked me if being interrogated in Sear meant you knew how to interrogate. I'll leave that line there because it was provocative and you can go find it in Spin Magazine. I'll tell you guys what it is later. He moves that gum to the front and he starts to chew like hell and he starts to nod. And when he's really affirming something which is interesting, his nod rate's pretty quick because he's nervous and you see it. Chase, I agree. You see his head whip around to the interrogator already. It'll get more pronounced as we go but this interrogator is setting him up for game of trust. He's moving him off of what he expects where it's going to be the harsh interrogation that he faced at Resistance School to more of a soft sell and it's working. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so to your point, Chase, yeah, I think confusion is being built up purposely here or very well accidentally because we get DS Smith, first of all, talking about Russ, two Russ, then talking about Russell Williams in the third person. So disassociating there. I think that's a possibility of setting up a Russell Williams that we can then ascribe crimes to, we can put it down to Russell Williams as opposed to Russ who I have in the room with me. So I think there may be a setup there of a possible out on that. Maybe, maybe. But then he goes back to connecting you with the crimes. So we've now got Russ, who we like, we like Russ. Then we've got Russell Williams who we're not sure about him. And then we've got the connection to you with the crimes. That's quite confusing. And I think that might be on purpose because again, we're trying to up this loss of control of who are we actually talking about right now? There's a lot of confusion there. Well, the head does turn in there to give an ear and there is this look of maybe confusion but I think it turns to criticism. And again, I think that is Williams trying to be an unattractive subject. Who wants to interrogate somebody who is just quite critical of what you're coming up with? Like what are you talking about here? Again, I would suggest that's purposeful on his part of just trying to be critical, unattractive to be around. However, what we do see as well which I think is important to know and you can use in your own environment when you're talking with people and you wanna build rapport is let's just go back to basic geometry. What you see is these two sitting in what we call in geometric terms the complement to each other. If you've got one thing here and one thing there that's called the complement. And so if you're interviewing somebody at the complement it's more likely they'll fall into complimentary behavior than if you place yourself in antagonism. In geometry, that's called antagonistic. It was Churchill who said, I think we make our places and then our places make us. And that's what happens when you set up a room for interview, interrogation, therapy, whatever you're doing, you're trying to set up the right geometry first of all that means it's most likely you're gonna get the performance that you need not only out of yourself but out of your client or your subject. They have gone for or it's been set up here in complement rather than antagonism that would just cause more argument. Here's what I do. In a meeting where I wanna build rapport really quickly I go, hey, you know what? I haven't had a chance to get a cup of coffee this morning. Would you get up with me and let's just take a walk to go and grab a coffee and then we move together in parallel. And it's in parallel as we walk along together not looking at each other but looking at what's going around. That's the point where I'll try and get information, rapport out of people because there's so little conflict. Think about how bars are set up. So mainly guys can talk to each other in the main and not fight. You sit them side by side and you get them looking at something else. So they don't get into conflict. They don't look at each other with alcohol and get into conflict with each other. So think about how often can you get yourself into parallel with somebody rather than ever antagonism or if you can't do that, get into the compliment. Scott, what do you got? All right, well, let's talk about what Greg brought up as well as the chew rate. And I forgot to hit that on the first one. As you know, I love gum. So on the first one is chew rate was 60 times a minute. That was the average. Average it out like you do a blink rate, Chase. So I average it at 60 times a minute. That's pretty good clip there. He's coming in, he's a little bit nervous. He hadn't done this before. Somebody knows he's done it. So he doesn't know if he's in trouble or not, but he knows he's guilty. So it's two rates at 60 there. Now, when we get to this question where he says, the thing where he says, you hit the nail on the head, then it goes up to, then we're down to 42 a minute. 42 choose a minute. That's when he talks about that. Then when he says, let's talk about the issues that make us want to talk to Russell Williams. That's when it goes to, he has 14 and 11 seconds. That's a lot. 14 choose 11 seconds. I'm a professional gum-chewer. That's a lot. I can tell you that right now. It's coming out of the gate. That's a whole lot. You guys covered all the, his hands and all that. One thing that I noticed, and I heard this from this who does, talked about almost the very same way I did. This is British guy, wrote a bunch of books. What's Blonde Hair dude? What's his name? Blonde Hair guy. Ted X talk has like a jazillion views. British guy, I can't remember his name. Bowden. Is it Bowden? Mark Bowden. That's who it is. The same thing. If you'll watch this guy, what he does is, he turns his ear toward him. When the suspect, when Russell's talking, he's got his ear toward him. Now, there's a thing that I like to do for years and years, and this is how I picked this up. Or when I saw Mark doing this on a TV show somewhere, I was like, oh gosh, he knows. If you're talking to someone and you want them to listen, and you got a lot to say, and you don't want to say anything, this is what I've found that helps. As you're talking to that person, when you're listening to them, your ears kind of like to point toward them. You're listening to them. Okay, great. And usually your illustrators, these are the things that we know are when your brain is emphasizing specific words and phrases like I did just then. Those are illustrators. Instead of your illustrators going out when you're talking to this person, what you want to do is give their brain the impression that they're the ones talking and you're the ones listening. So you get your head going like this a little bit and you shake your head up and down a little bit as you're saying something. And then you sort of, instead of making your illustrators go outward, you bring them in this way a little bit, almost like you're dragging information out of them as you're talking. You don't make a whole big thing about it, but you do it very subtly as you're talking to them. You do a couple of pauses like that. And the next thing you know, when you're shaking your head and you're doing this, they'll be shaking their head and listening. And theoretically their brain is under the impression they're the ones talking and you're the one listening. So they're not thinking about something else to talk about next, what's going to come up next. However, in this case, Russell Williams' brain is just flying around in there where you can tell by how still he is and how tight he gets and how loose he gets. His breathing right here is 18 times a minute. It's not a whole lot at this point. That's not a whole lot. 18 times a minute, not a whole lot. So, but he's practiced that. He knows to keep his breathing under control. So, as his brain's flying around, he's trying to think what's going to come next. How much trouble am I in? And he's almost, this is when we see things start to come together. This is when we, from this moment on, we see his approach is going to go from, when Greg was talking about him bobbing his head up and down, when he hits that point where he says, let's talk about the connection with you and Miss Cuomo or how that was made. That's the deepest head nod. It's almost a pre-confession nod where he goes down and guards that neck with his chin. Because other times he's doing this, it's pretty big. When that phrase hits, then that thing goes all the way down and stays for a second and then comes back up. That's a warning. What are you going to say, Greg? You're moving. Yeah, no, no. I just moved to correct that. Oh, okay. I thought you had some bad, too. Sorry, man. But I do have something to add. I did have something to add when you're done. I'll go ahead. Now I'm done. Go ahead. What do you got? Yeah, so the last one, for me, I said you shouldn't call him by his title. He's doing it here intentionally. He's setting it up for a pride and you go up, pride and you go down later. And what you do is you call him out. You say, hey, you are a colonel. So later when you say, hey, what kind of scumbag colonel does this? Then you can get him because remember, when you get a person off balance, you get them out of the thinking brain. What you'll see is when we always know and we're about to get a confession because you get them in their brain case. Once they're in their brain case and there's no outside world existing, you're the only voice they hear. And they entirely forget there's a camera and a microphone because the only space they're existing in is in that kinesthetic plane and they're down in just turmoil. They're like a squirrel in the road trying to figure out where to go next. And we just reach over and go, it's okay, Bob, we're gonna help you. Now, again, professional liars that we are, we're gonna help you right into jail, but that's what we do. So here we go. And essentially Russell, in a nutshell, that's what we wanted to talk to you about, okay? Those four cases are of concern to us. And you know, you've kind of almost hit the nail on the head about some of our issues that kind of make us want to talk to Russell Williams, okay? Because essentially there was a connection between you and all four of those cases. Would you agree? Geograph. And then I drive past, yes, I would have to say there was a connection, yeah. Yeah, and that's why, I'll be quite frank with you, that's why things kind of evolved when the officers talked to you on Thursday night. We kind of went from there because when I think you discussed with me the fact that you were a colonel at the base. I was in uniform at the time, so. Yeah, so pretty obvious, right? So essentially then the connection with Ms. Comal was made. Okay, I'm good. You guys good? Yeah. Let's move. I'm not gonna walk you through November, but I'm gonna take you to a date that's probably pretty fresh in your mind, the day that Reeve Franz Comal. Do you remember how you found out? I do, yeah, I was sent an email. Well, as soon as the off staff and the base learned, they told me. Okay. So I got an email, I can't remember if it was late at night early in the morning, it was certainly, I saw it. I wanna say first thing in the morning because I had just come back from Ottawa. I was in Ottawa for a set of meetings on one of the days. I can't remember what day of the week we were talking about it, but yeah, no, I mean, obviously when your people get skilled, it gets your attention, so. Absolutely. I'm very mature about that, come in. And how did you know Reeve Franz Comal? I'd only met her once. She was on a crew, I was on just after I got to the base. Okay. So I can't remember, I think it was a one day trip. I did it on a birth trips in Canada, transporting troops sort of first lake out of Edmonton, we tend to hopscotch them across until they get in the theater. So I can't remember which trip it was, but we did a number of them out to Edmonton just to pick up the troops, bring them to Trenton, and then put a fresh crew on because we'd fly them back in the same day. So I'm pushing the edge of that. Fresh crew on, they'd continue on after a couple of hours of delay. Okay. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So one thing that really interests me is that heavy sigh in there. What I would be interested in around that is that something he is performing in order to try and get an idea of emotional connection to the victim or is it a heavy sigh around something else? A release of the tension that's going on there or is he using that moment to release tension at a place where it would feel normal to do that because we're talking about the news of the death of a colleague. Although, you know, his whole assertion is he didn't really know this person anyway. So I'm going to go for, he's using it to release tension. We're starting to see the build up in him of the tension here due to the duress of this and he does need to release something at that point. Remember what's happening is you got a build up as you get fight and flight, you got a build up of lactic acid and you need to burn that off and so you got to emit carbon dioxide so you got to sigh out. You got to get that stuff out, just part of respiration. Look, here's what happens. There's lots of detail around this stuff. He suddenly goes into detail around Ottawa. Well, that's a play for status. Ottawa is Canada's ruling capital. It's the political capital. It's where the government of Canada have all their high offices, including the armed forces. So he's making a play for, hey, I was in Ottawa, very important trip to Ottawa. But then he goes into a whole kind of seductive story about exactly how you move troops, I guess when they come into the East Coast, back from Afghanistan into Europe onto the East Coast. Now I'm getting them back to Alberta across Canada. It's like, we don't really need that kind of detail. Well, what you're trying to do, again, is up your status around this. DS Smith, brilliant, just goes, okay. So I don't care about that. Okay, not of interest to me. So again, immediately crushes that status there. So Williams trying to make himself unattractive by being too important, Smith there strikes him down on that. But what is interesting for me is we see, I think, it's hard to see because we're only really seeing the arm, but I think we're probably starting to see a few more illustrators on that story. So he's being a bit more verbose with his body language on that, which means we're probably getting a baseline of here's what he's like when he's telling us the truth. When he's telling us the truth of here's how you move troops across Canada, we're going to get a lot more movement from him. When he's trying to hold stuff back, he's going to lock himself right down. So that's what I got on that one. Chase, what do you got for us? Yeah, I absolutely agree. There's a fantastic point about bringing up Ontario there. And I think his eyebrows start to stick upward in this request for approval about just a few seconds into this. And his gum chewing here, we can see it start to increase. His chew rate goes up a little bit. And when he says one of your people gets killed, it gets your attention or I'm paraphrasing. You can see him tighten his cross body grip that he's reaching across his body with a single arm. And I think this confirmation glance continues throughout to the end of the video. He maintains his eye contact to ensure that he's still on solid ground with the interrogator. So we see him continuing to look back during anything that might be questionable to check for the response of the interrogator. And this grip that he's grabbing his other arm continues while he's speaking and he's reluctant to use his hand. And this is the source of internal security for right now, this grip across his body. And he's using and flying the troops, obviously, with the eyebrow flash to say, how impressive is that? He's building a little more credibility with the interrogator. And I'll leave it at that. I'll keep it short. Scott. All right. When he says, let's talk about his two-rate again. So when he says, how did you know Marie Cuomo? He says, I don't matter once. And he says it really loud. It's like his brain is saying, no, man, we only matter the one time. We got to get that out. At that point, his two-rate blows up to 96 times a minute. That's a lot. That's a whole lot. Then, like Chase was talking about, his arm moves up and starts. That's where his adapter starts kicking in. He's been using his gum as an adapter up to that point, trying to blow off some of that built up stress or tension and trying to be cool and relax himself. That's when we start seeing that. They interrogate at the same time. He's using that. He's got the same posture. He's got the same tone. Everything is just the same. Whereas we're slowly starting to see Russell Williams getting into that. He started to get wound up, man, because his brain at this point is just flying in there because he's starting to get worried. He takes a deep breath, I think, to control his breathing. He gets relaxed because his breathing rate is pretty heavy. It jacks up in there. I don't have it written down on here. I thought I had it. His illustrators, they stay pretty small at this point. Because when he came in before he was doing a little bit, we'll see him get big in a couple of minutes, a little bit bigger. Usually, when someone is worried and they're being a little bit deceptive, you'll see those illustrations. That's one of the things that I personally look for. If I'm trying to decide where this person is being honest or not or they're making something up, watch those illustrators. If they get smaller, they disappear. When they've been doing this the whole time, watch out for that. It's really, really important. Yeah. So you guys, clean me out on that with a lot of it. Greg, what do you got? Yeah. So I'm going to go in reverse order because I agree, Mark, you're dead on. We get a baseline. He starts talking about this whole baseline thing. He's dent, dent, dent, dent. You see him illustrating. Big mistake. Big, big, big mistake. It's the reason the interrogator allows him to talk because now he can compare it to something. The interrogator does an artful question. How did you know? Not, hey, did you know? Not, hey, tell me about, boom, how did you know? That causes a guy to tell you something. Now, here's what I think the big respiration is. I think if you look at him, when he's talking about, let me go back. When you look at him, when he's doing his baseline, his face is kind of slack. His muscles are relaxed. There's not a lot of this wrenched face that you see when he's under duress. When he first starts and he asks, how did you know? His head is up. Request for a privilege. He's got concrete face here like that demon from Japan. We're talking about one time, Mark, I forget the name of the one. Really rigid face, really rigid face. His nodding is more intense. His barriers are up. His internal conversation is going 90 to nothing. And he has a respiration. Exhale. The reason he does that, in my opinion, is because he's hit something he's prepared for and that's chaff and redirect. And you watch that adapter in sacred space disappears a little and his hands start to move because now he gets to talk about that he doesn't have to think about. It's real fact. He's chaffing and redirecting and hoping you'll bite into, hey, how do you fly that plane? I'm surprised he didn't say, I flew her majesty because he did. And I could imagine him saying something like that because this is his chance to get away. Then when he asked, how did you know when he says the part about how did you know her? And he says she was on a crew. I only met her once. She was on a crew. Tongue jut. Hmm. This tasteful subject. Now it could be accidental because he just, you know, had an exasperated breathe. But I'm thinking, no, it's more. Okay. That's a real tongue jut in the Desmond Morris distasteful wanted out of my mouth kind of thing. Then he goes back into that normal baseline. This interrogator is just sitting going. Just waiting for a bite. And he will get it in a bit. Fantastic job. If you're listening to us, we would love to have you on our show. Come and see us. Yeah, I know. It's all I got. That'd be great. I'm not, I'm not going to walk you through November, but I'm going to take you to a date that's probably pretty fresh in your mind. The day that, that where your friends call me. Do you remember how you found out? I do. Yeah. I've sent an email. Well, as soon as the, the off staff and the base learned, they told me. Okay. So I got an email. I can't remember if it was late at night early in the morning. It was certain. I saw it. I want to say first thing in the morning, because I had just come back from Ottawa. I was in Ottawa for a set of meetings on one of the days. I can't remember what day of the week we were talking about, but no, I mean, obviously when your people get skilled, it gets your attention. Absolutely. I very much remember that coming. And how did you know Marie-France Coleman? I only met her once. She was on a crew. I was on just after I got to the base. Okay. So I can't remember. I think it was a one day trip. I did a number of trips in Canada transporting troops sort of first leg out of Edmonton. We tend to hopscotch them across until they get in the theater. So I can't remember which trip it was, but we did a number of them at Edmonton just to pick up the troops, bring them to Trenton and then put a fresh crew on because we'd fly them back in the same day. So I'm pushing the edge of that. Fresh crew on and they'd continue on after a couple hours of delay. Okay. All right, ready? Yeah. So that particular week, do you have any recollection? Well, for instance, when you got the email, do you remember where you were? I was at home in Tweed. Yeah. Do you remember if that was a week that you were reasonably stable in Trenton or had you flown? No, I had been in Ottawa. I had been in Ottawa early in the week for some meetings over in Gatineau for one of the, especially for the C-17 in acquisition. If I was a project director, I might have been here in Ottawa for that. So just some follow-up stuff for that. Okay. So I had been here at some point in that week. Again, I can't remember how the days all fell together, but I seem to remember that I got this word shortly after having come back from Ottawa. It seems to me it was the same week. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so I told you before, we look like swans until you see our feet under the water. Watch him. Watch the interrogator. He does something with his hands and he's keenly observant of his own body language and kind of moves glitchy because he's afraid that it'll be perceived by the other guy. That's the curse of being us, right? So we're sitting across the table and we're like, oh yeah, he might understand that and we do something glitchy to move it around. So it's an interesting turn. He does it, again, this interrogator knows what he's doing. He uses leading questions, did, will, have, are, can. Those words allow you to cut shorter conversation and redirect it. He does a masterful job of asking in that way. Now, watch the feigned misunderstanding of Williams. I'm going to stop calling him a colonel and I'm really proud of him for burning his uniforms. That says something about the Canadian military. Dishonor goes in the furnace with everything else. So he turns away and he barriers a little more. And then his chew rate increases and his barriering and adapting. When we say adapting and barriering, barrierings, I need space. I'm putting something between me and you. Adapters are ways of releasing nervous energy, whatever it may be. And he's doing both. And I call that sacred space. And he shrinks a little as he gets into this. He's making the target smaller. Psychological all in it. And then he bumps up when he says, he looks like he's comfortable until he says, were you at home all the time? And then suddenly he's like, oh, oh, now I got to tell the truth. And I'm going to have to say, no, I was in Ottawa and I was here. I was in a place I shouldn't have been. Then his barriers increase, but he makes more eye contact. And he starts to chaff and redirect and resume statement to use Chase's term again with a C17 project leader. So I seem important. Now, here's where everything is starting to unravel to me. There's a new word we've not heard from him yet. I seem to remember. Now he's getting plausible deniability. He's starting down that path of, well, I seem to remember. Not I remember. So he's hedging. He's distancing. And he's giving this opportunity to create reasonable doubt as to whether he was there or not. Now, the other thing is this interrogator is using very specific language. Do you remember? That's intentional. That's very intentional. Now, I will also leave it at that because I don't want to step into something I shouldn't. And I'll push that over to Scott. I know it's killing you. I know it's killing you. He is killing me. He is killing me. All right. All right. Well, this charade actually goes to 90 here. That's pretty good. That's a whole lot. So when he says, I've been in Ottawa, he says it twice. And then he starts to make that big, that big adapting move. Man, he's so uncomfortable. And we actually see a micro expression here when he says, for some meetings I was over in Gatno. I don't know what Gatno is. Anybody know what Gatno is? I'll tell you. What is it? Yeah. It's specifically the part of Ottawa where the government offices are for the services. So he's being very, very specific about, I was at government meetings in Gatno. Okay. The Pentagon and the US speak, right? Yeah. Okay. Well, that's where we see that little, that contempt that thing on side of his nose goes up right there, side of his face. So he's either had a bad, hard time there in Gatno or he wasn't there. He's making that up at the same time. I think that's what you said, Greg. So we see that. And then let's start noticing how far apart they are at the distance between Smith and Williams. Let's start looking at the distance there because that changes drastically here in a little while as we get to going. Again, his brain, he's starting to think and he's starting to move around a little bit. He's trying to keep that in control, but he's having a real problem with it. Greg ate up two or three of mine. So I'm going to move on. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So as a post-modernist, I have something very meta coming up. So hang in there. So what we get, what I want you to pay attention to is you can read all the books you like on body language about this and that and there's the other and this and that. Just look out for the significant change that you see in him on this significant, when I talk about is there a significant change? This is the kind of thing that I'm looking at. It's very significant. Now, what does it mean? I don't know. But it happens on that area of I had been in Ottawa. Significant change there. And just as Scott says there, that look of disgust on Gatineau. I don't see why him that kind of rang, to turn up, when you turn up to Gatineau, that's a cool thing. That's good. It means you've made it. Yeah. I know you might be getting all kinds of problems from your peers and higher ranks there. I know there's all that and it's hellish to get out there and it doesn't look great, okay? Especially in the winter. But it's a good thing to be there. So I think the disdain or the disgust there is around about he's smelling his own lie. He's making this one up on the fly and it smells really bad to him, okay? Now, here's the meta piece. Here is the piece of, where we disappear into a beautiful tautology which is he starts talking about to raise his rank, the C17, okay? And if you don't know C17, it's a big, big plane that can shift lots and lots of stuff. It'll cost you about $350 million, super expensive. So if you're poor in charge of the acquisition of that, and this one particularly is being moved to going over to Trenton where it's gonna be flying out of, that's a big thing. Now, and look how he gets into that story. We've gone from, so where were you into a story of, I'm buying a $350 million plane and just so you know that $350 million plane has its own countermeasure dispensing system and that's what we call chaff and redirect and that's exactly what's happening here. I'll leave it at that. Chase, what have you got? I'll go about full circle. That was a beautiful mark, right? Yeah. Yeah, that was good. Oh, we've all been? No. No, Chase. Chase. Yeah, I think the interrogator's non-convertional. He's able to let him talk without interruption, which is uncommon for interrogators. And I think one of the things I actually teach is this mouth covering thing that he's doing. It signals unconsciously to the other person that you're not going to speak, that you're making a decision not to speak and makes them more likely to continue talking. So, William says, you know, I'd been an Ottawa. There's the immediate arm cross. There's grip. There's digital flexion. His fingers are squeezing into his arm. They're not relaxed. That's one of the things I always say. If you're looking at someone with their arms crossed, that's meaningless. It's meaningless. Somebody says they're being defensive, closed off with holding, concealing. None of those things apply to that. But one thing to pay attention to is the fingers. Are they squeezing the arm? Are they relaxed? Are they comfortable? Are the palms touching the body where a person is hugging themselves for reassurance? Those things matter. The arm cross by itself is not a big deal. So I think this statement puts him in the area of the crime or lets him know that he's internally being deceptive. So this shows he has knowledge of something going on. We see this shift. If there's one thing, if I could, have you paid me whatever for a class and body language that lasted 30 seconds? I would say the entire purpose of reading human behavior is detecting changes in past observed comfortable behavior. Class over. And that's all I got. Yeah, you guys both just hit, and we should bring this up at every show. The difference in us in absolutist is what you just heard. All of us are looking for change. And what we see in other people is this means X. No, that doesn't mean X. Yeah, Joan of Oro calls it the differences, looking for the differences in comfort and discomfort. Very simple, right to the point. All right. So that particular week, do you have any recollection? Well, for instance, when you got the email, do you remember where you were? I was at home in Tweed. Okay, yeah. Do you remember that was a week that you were reasonably stable and trekked, or had you flown on the... No, I had been in Ottawa, I had been in Ottawa earlier in the week for some meetings over in Gatineau, for one of the, it's actually for the C-17 acquisition. I was project director and when I was here in Ottawa for that, so just some follow-up stuff for that. Okay. So I had been here at some point in that week, again I can't remember how the days all fell together, but I seem to remember that I got this word shortly after having come back from Ottawa. It seems to me it was the same week. We good? Yeah. So if we were to, you know, do a similar investigation in your background, is there anything you can think of that anybody may have misinterpreted or anything in your history that somebody might say Russell Williams did this? Absolutely. Nope. Okay. It would be very boring. What's that? It would be very boring. All right. Because essentially that's what I'm looking at. Is it, you seem like a very intelligent person. I think you can see how a surprise like that would certainly set some alarm bells in our investigation, right? All right. I'll go first on this one. This is, this is another setup for, this is a bait question, but he's setting him up for the biggie, which comes up next because he's, he's planting that thing in his mind. Is there anything, I didn't think about it. If there's, if he's going to see anything bad about me, he's not ready for the next one, which we'll get into in a minute. So that's, that's great. He's sort of setting him up for that. We see him start to squirm a little bit and start to think about what's happening. And we can see that, that brain is in there just flipping out, man. He's in there. It's bouncing around in there. Now we, we know that because we start seeing his face and his forehead started getting flush. Up to this point, it's been, it's been fairly normal flesh wise, but now starting to get a little bit red cause he's thinking he's heating up. He's starting to feel the heat come on. And he's wondering what do these cats know? What's going, you know, this isn't good. This isn't good now. Cause he's realizing that, that he's probably in trouble at this point. I think his breathing rate goes up 24 times a minute. That's a whole lot in a minute. So now it's so, let's see what else, but then again, the Smith keeps it light by laughing and do those types of things. And when he says, um, when you ask him that debate question, we ask that, we see just a little bit of a really quick flash smiles. He's as the second part of it goes really, really quickly. That tells us as well, he's thinking that he should be smiling about that, but he just busts out and then goes away really quick, really quickly. Um, what else have I got on here? Yeah. He just let him know that there's, there's a lot more, there's a lot more Cohen and he's getting ready for it. Chase, what do you got? Yes, we see, uh, he says, you know, is there anything somebody might have misinterpreted? He's, he's setting up the frame or the perception from the very beginning. And I think this is beautiful. Uh, I would add on here, if I was teaching a course, of course, we could always do everything a little better, a little differently, but it's good to set up this question with something like, I'm glad you're here. You know, we've got 76 officers canvassing the neighborhoods, talking. We've already, we've already spoken to 97 people just since yesterday morning. And then the question comes in to, to build credibility into the bait question. So I always like, I always like to establish a little bit of credibility inside the bait question. Uh, and, and if you watch the Dr. Phil episode, we were on Scott, Greg and Mark, uh, passed, uh, a person down to me in it for me to use a bait question followed by what we call a mind virus. Uh, but we don't have time for that tonight. So next, uh, the follow up with, uh, the interrogator's appeal to the man's intelligence need is a chef's kiss. Beautiful moment. I love watching that. And it's kind of just one final chance to tell you, tell us what do you think somebody might have said? This is, this is it. I mean, this is a final chance. And that is a powerful tool with guilty people. And you'll see guilty and innocent people respond to this in completely different ways. That's the power of a bait question. It's not a leading question. And it's not a question that assumes facts, not an evidence or it doesn't assume facts. We're not lying to anyone. We're asking if there's any reason. We'll see a few more bait questions throughout here tonight. And, uh, I think the interrogator's doing a wonderful job so far here. So, uh, Mark. Yeah. Yeah. What I love about the S Smith is, is he plays his weakest cards first. And, and so we do see that he doesn't really out of this first bait question. I mean, I think it, it sets up futility. It works towards futility of the situation, but it maybe doesn't get, uh, the information that might have been more useful. And so we do see a difference in, in Smith's body language there. I think there is a touch of disappointment that he doesn't get, you know, more information out of him, uh, because, um, uh, Williams is his countermeasure here to be unattractive to the interrogator is, I'm very boring. And the idea would be is that then DS Smith goes, Oh yeah. Um, hey, lad, so we got, we got a more interesting one to bring in because this one is, is very, very boring. He's hoping to make himself super unattractive, super uninteresting. So this kind of goes over and we might swap him out for somebody better. Of course, that isn't going to happen here because he's, he's the option that they have right now and maybe even at this point as well. I'm not quite sure when they get the shoe print from him. I've been through the videos that we looked at, not the whole thing. And I can't see where his shoes leave him. Uh, but at some point, his, his, his boots, he gives over his boots. I think they did that before they started. Oh, they did it before they start. So they've literally bought him in and said, can we have a look at your boots as you walk in? By the way, taking somebody's shoes, one of the best ways to reduce their status, one of the best ways. If you've ever been to a British football match where the police are expecting crowd violence, one of the things that the police will do is say, give us your shoes before you go in and you'll go in barefoot so that they know that way less is going to kick off. Not only is it hard to fight in bare feet and not get yourself damaged, but you don't, you don't feel safe. Uh, so it's a great, great reduction of status by taking people's shoes. So he goes for the unattractiveness. I'm very, very boring, but then what, uh, Dia Smith does is to bring in this idea of we don't want any surprises. Okay. Surprises would be bad. And again, that's building the futility of it. The more surprises you give me, the worse it's going to get for us here. So give over the information. But anyway, first bait question. Well, by the way, I think the bait question always also has disassociation in it. I've certainly got that in my notes, but I can't remember how it's done. So why not go back and look at that for me and put below how that bait question also has disassociation in it. So it might not be somebody could kind of give you information which is applied to a version of you, something distant from you, not actually you in the room with me right now. That's what I got on that one. Greg, what do you got for me? Yeah, so guys, I'm going to try not to be long-winded here because I'm about to go into the mechanics of interrogation. We're going to talk about how this works, how an interrogation actually works. So we talked about approaches. Approaches are these levers, these psychological ploys we use to get in someone's head. And those include things like I'll list a handful of them and then we'll go from there. Direct. People ask a question, you answer or you don't. Incentive. I offer you something you give it to me. People have given me information for cookie or ice cream before it just works that way. Sometimes it's alcohol or something else. Emotional. That means love or hate of something. Fear, up and down. And that can be harsher or it can be aggressive. Pride and ego, up or down. Let me see if I can even repetition a petition, establish ID. All of these things come together and then futility, rapid fire, silence. All of those are approaches and ways to get you to talk. What you're seeing here is a very artful beginning. Now if he stumbled into it, fantastic, but I don't think so. I think what he's doing with this pseudo bait question is he is establishing we know all. Like that. He said, hey, you had this security interview. Is there anything in there that people might misunderstand? That is a shot across the balfour. Hey, I've seen your security interview. I know a lot of stuff about you that is not public knowledge. It's already starting down that path and it's very subtle, but it's the first step. Now imagine I start bringing in the mechanics of this. And what he's after is a reaction. Does he get a reaction? Go back and watch the video and turn the sound off. Watch him because he starts with that blink rate up. His legs are crossed. He throws that forehead up. Is he trying to, you know, he says this whole thing about it be very boring? And his legs open. His legs blossom wide open and kind of a cocky leg position after. Does it mean he's been cocky? It means something changed. Ding, ding, ding. What an orchestration is, we talk about these 14 approaches. None of them work in a vacuum. The only one that works in a vacuum is direct. Hey, Chase, did you do this? Well, yeah, Greg, I did it. That's a direct. But the rest of them, we feather them together and we create this beautiful story that allows you to be the hero. If the hero is telling us where the body is or something else. All these approaches go together. Here comes this. There's an incentive. There's a carrot dangle going on right now while he's talking. And that's I'm trying to allow you to save face. He's starting those two approaches right now. This is masterful and we're going to see later one of the single best sentences I've ever heard in interrogated your liver. So this is interrogation geeking from me because I've taught it for so many years. I just love watching it. Thanks. You need to calm down, Greg. You're getting too into it. I told you I'll geek on this one because this is masterful. No one's going to watch this anyway. So if we were to do a similar investigation in your background, is there anything you can think of that anybody may have interpreted or anything in your history that somebody might say Russell Williams did this? No. Be very boring. What's that? It'll be very boring. All right, because essentially that's what I'm looking at. You seem like a very intelligent person. I think you can see how a surprise like that would certainly settle some alarm bells in this investigation. So. Russell, is there anything you can think of? Let's go talk about Marie-France Como for a minute, okay? Is there any reason at all you can think of that during our investigation, obviously we're searching computers things like blackberries, right? Electronic devices looking through houses for things that are in handwriting, written notes, diaries, things like that. Now, I'm not a liberty to tell you what the content was, but is there any reason at all you can think of why Marie-France Como would have specifically referenced you in some of her writings? Not at all. No? Absolutely not. Okay. Is there anything that she ever said to you that led you to believe that there might be something more than a passing interest toward you? I don't know. No, we spent one flight together talking, I'd go back occasionally and talk. No? If that's the case, that's a very surprising. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so another bait question he's building on the last one. You know, there could be a sense there of Williams thinks great, if that's the best bait question you have, you know, I got through that one. Well, here comes another one. And it has a couple of kind of non sequiturs in it or what we might call nested loops, kind of interruptions in the pattern there. So that look really logically, if you went into that bait question, all you'd come out with is like, yeah, you don't have anything, do you? You just don't have anything because that's what when you put those words together that DC Smith says it basically says they actually don't have anything, but you know, could it be possible that there is something? Well, he's in a place right now where he's not really able to undo that because we do see him take that bait and we do see him lean forward, lean in, you know, look for that. He is going, what that? What have they got? So he thinks they have something. He isn't cognitively able at that point to deconstruct that question for what it is, which is they don't have anything, no written material in anybody's diaries or anything, you know, that references him. Anyway, so he comes in though still because he sees he's pretty good. He comes in with a strong denial no, not at all, but his head reels back right in there and then here for me is the significant change no, absolutely not. And I want you to go and listen to that tone of voice on no, absolutely not. And that's the biggest thing in there. So yeah, the DS does not get a big spiel of confession from him. I don't know whether he's expecting that. I think probably not. You know, he's on a build up of the futility of this, but he does get a nice reaction and a nice tonal change out of him on that on that build there. Chase, what do you have for me? One thing that I tell everybody in our interrogation courses to purchase and bring with you in your briefcase because a lot of these interiors are carrying these pocket recorders for their own recordings, which is on the table there is a washcloth. They come in handy big time. They absorb a lot of sound in the room. They just pick up voice washcloths are extremely effective. And so what we're doing here or what we're seeing here in this interrogation is a we're starting a potential transition from what we call an interview to what we call an interrogation. So right now we're still kind of in this phase that if you're depends on what technique you're looking at, but this is the interview phase. We're asking a series of very, very pointed questions, one of which is the bait question to determine whether or not we think there is a high or low likelihood that this person is guilty. And that's what we're seeing here. So once the interrogator determines this person is probably guilty, then we go from interview mode to interrogation mode. And that all starts with a confrontation which we're going to hear a little bit and anytime we're saying is there any reason it's not a leading question. So he provides a list of potential evidence like we just talked about before. He says we're doing this. We're searching computers and blackberries. He's listing all the things, but what he's actually doing is instructing William's mind exactly what to worry about. So all the things he wouldn't have worried about otherwise, he's telling him specifically what he needs to start worrying about before the question comes out. And I think this big question is walking a thin line between saying there is something there isn't, but I think he's still on the right side for sure. But I think the interest level of a suspect and whether or not they want to discover more, they want to learn what you have and what's going on before they answer. So they're holding back before they answer. This is a guilty behavior. It doesn't mean guilt. It suggests guilt. And we see this again confirmed with speaking in fragments. The movement is sped up with these jerky responsive movements and this stress behavior. His arms haven't moved. He's still locked in place. Greg. Yeah, I think one of the things you just said, a person who is being accused of something is not going to be interested in the case. They're going to be interested in getting the hell out of there. The more interest they show in the case, the more reliable they are to wanting to know what it is you have. And I think that's a great call out because you're right. It's not a leading question. It's a poke. It's a it's a prod. It's a look to see. It's a start to do a we know all approach. It's start to say, look, we got stuff you don't know about and we're going to share it with you slowly and I'm going to slowly choke you. That's the way it goes because he's got no gum. Remember I said in the beginning, big mistake to start off with gum. All the energy is going to go somewhere because your energy level is going to increase when you come into an interrogation, not decrease. Now you might just get worn out, but trust your intuition. You don't get the opportunity to get worn out because we keep poking and prodding and making your head turn up. You have fight or flight. So he does a deep swallow. His jaw clenches instead of milling and when he does that thing mark where he does that, I'm I'm not sure I understand that fake glance and that fake disbelief chase Scott, you talk about this all the time that fake disbelief is gone in a microsecond. It doesn't look real. If you accuse me of something, I'd be gone that quickly. So good indicator. It means something. Remember, he should have kept his legs in front of him. Now his feet are under his chair and he's leaning forward. He's all bunched up. All that baseline is shifted from when he was denying things in the beginning. When he said none at all, he made way too much eye contact like he was trying to hypnotize. He said no, absolutely not. Nervous laugh. Really? Really? You're going to do that sitting in front of this guy and the guy guarantee you. Then he goes, no, not at all. He has a lilt in his entire demeanor shifts and he does that little shoulder to shoulder head bobble thing. One of the best parts of this entire thing is in my opinion, this guy just took the biggest, boldest step possible when he said or maybe she said to you, hmm, that's bold because if you never talked to her, you would say, I never talked to her and you would never think anything of it because you do that. However, what happens to Williams? He falls for it and says, no, we talked about this. I went to the back of the plane twice and talked to her. Okay. That's an old interrogation trick I used to teach people all the time. If you go through basic interrogator course, they'll teach you, ask every question, are you married? What is your wife's name? Well, that's dumb because the human brain finds patterns. And if I say, tell me your wife's name, tell me your child's name, tell me your oldest son's name, your brain starts to think I know all that and that's what he's doing here. This is powerful. He's continuing that we know all with this bait question too and he's driving a powerful a powerful message that we know more than you think we do and just wait, we'll show you that bait question is powerful. Scott, what do you got? All right. Well, you see his breathing rate goes, it gets pretty shallow here. It starts jacking down some. But for me, I think this was the bait question. I thought this was great because the way he sets this up, not only start asking the question, he puts him on notice that that's coming, but then he waits and while he's waiting and talking about this other part of the question where that brain starts blowing up and he starts creating this world in there of all this stuff going on that he's not sure what he knows and what's he going to say? What's he going to say? For me when we were when I was going through these, this is one of those things where and I'm sure it was for you guys as well, you're sitting there thinking, oh my God, this is this is awesome. Because we're watching this guy get worked up in here. Oh, it's his execution of that. It's just beautiful. Then he starts, you're right. He starts to freeze up. He starts to get to where he's, we can see him start closing down at this point. And and then you cover the head snap back when he's, but he says absolutely not. Again, saying the word absolutely does not mean you're guilty, does not mean you're lying, does not mean you're innocent or anything else. You sure hear a lot when somebody's done something they shouldn't have done and you ask them, did they do it? They say absolutely not. When he says I'm not liberty to tell you what what the content was, that's when it looks like he's taken a punch almost because his head kicks back like that's when it hits him that, you know, there shouldn't be anything in there and he's trying to to look like he's acting, reacting naturally. And that's a big cue right there. As soon as you see something like that then let's see where else. Y'all covered most of all the stuff, but man this is, it's so good. It's such a wonderful setup. This guy, it's almost like a game. You know, it is a game, but he is literally getting this guy boxed in body language wise and we'll see a lot of times in the old days you referred to interrogators as a box man, they were box man. And because you're boxing the person in and you're trying to get them to, so there's no way out of the box and you have to say, okay, I did it in other words. And that's what he's doing. Not just from the talking to him point of view from the vernacular he's using, the words he's using, the construction of the senses and questions he's using and statements he's saying, but he's also boxing in body language wise. We'll see that. And there's a reason for that too, but we'll get that to the end. I'm sorry I'm getting excited here. I'll move on. All right, we good? Yeah, I want to know what school this guy went to. Oh man. You can tell that Williams knows what's going on. He knows what the bait question is and he's like, oh man here it comes. I'm there. So he's having this separate conversation, this internal dialogue going on. Oh no. He may not know what a bait question is Scott, but he certainly knows what interrogation approaches are. If he does know what a bait question is he's lost his memory of that through arrogance. He's walked in there, but this is an OPP DS. So it's like this is a nobody out in the boonies. This is a nobody who's interviewed. I think he does know what it is. I used to run a base and I'm about to be interviewed by a nobody and I'm about to get away with this. I think you're right. I think he thinks that guy is just going to be a pushover. I think you, but I also think he knows of interrogation approaches and he's hearing a couple of them. What he's not seeing is the masterful build up of what's coming. That's what he's missing. Yeah. And you're right, Mark. That's where the arrogance misses that. But I think he knows something's up, but he just can't figure out what it is. That might be it. But I think he knows what's happening because I can see that second inner dialogue going on in there of, oh no. I think it's that big difference between knowing about a bait question and being in that situation. He's like I don't know how many hours into it. He pretty much confesses three hours in or something around that. Somebody listens to this and hears about a bait question. Yeah, but then have three in a row and you've committed a crime and I've not been through. I know what they're doing, but I've not been through that process with a DS in front of me. The first thing I would do is go give me a lawyer. Exactly. Okay, I'm walking out because there's no way I'm sitting down here and answering any questions about anything. You arrest me or I'm walking her and if you arrest me, you know, I'm still not speaking, I want a lawyer. Russell Is there anything you can think of? Let's go talk about Marie Francois for a minute, okay? Is there any reason at all you can think of that during our investigation, obviously we're searching computers things like blackberries, right? Electronic devices looking through houses for things that are in handwriting, written notes, diaries, things like that. Now, I'm not a liberty to tell you what the content was, but is there any reason at all you can think of why Marie France, Como, would have specifically referenced you in some of her writings? Not at all. No, absolutely not. Okay, is there anything that she ever said to you that led you to believe that there might be something more than a passing interest with her towards you? No, we spent, you know, one flight together talking. I'd go back occasionally and talk. No. If that's the case, that's very surprising. Okay, all right. God. You have any questions for me right now? I'm just going to step out and see how things are going. It is a Sunday, but there's probably 60, 70 people working on this file, so there's a lot of things happening. So let me go out and see what's happening back in and we'll hopefully continue. Okay. I told you when I came in here that I'm going to treat you with respect and I've asked you to do the same for me. We talked about the whole idea of how we've approached you here. The trying to be is just read as possible. But the problem is, Russell, is every time I walk out of this room there's another issue that comes up. And it's not issues that point away from you. It's issues that point at you. And I want you to see what I mean. Okay, Greg, what do you got? So first, Chase, I'd say have you ever had anybody grab your file in dossier off the table and try to dispose of it? Yeah, it happens in real life. And my favorite thing is you do realize we have more copies, right? But people will grab that because you're so afraid of it. It is so powerful. And it's a continuation of We Know All. The guys who came back from Vietnam referred to it as file in dossier and it was a way to track all their life. Now you already said you got a security clearance. If you got a security clearance, you know you got a tremendous amount of information on it. Watch his chest tighten. Even before the guy walks out, watch it. But when he comes back, watch his eyes riveted to that folder. It's power. That represents everything in the world to him. Not this investigator who's now become his friend by using words like respect and come on Russ who's doing We Know All who's doing this file. It's a way to take it off of me and you and not make it about us. It makes it about the crime and the crime is contained in that folder so that I get your trust. It's powerful. It works. I got a note down here, boa constrictor. Chase, you talked about earlier when a person has their arms around them and whether they're gripping themselves or not. This guy can't breathe because he's gripping himself so tight every time he exhales, he can't inhale just like a boa constrictor. And if you watch him, his breathing gets shallower and he stops talking and starts grunting. He's barely emitting sound. Great indicator. We're getting him in his brain case now. He's going back into himself. He's not outward. He's not communicating effectively and that whole facade is starting to crack. This is the beginning of what we all recognize as pre-confession pose. We'll see it really pronounced in the next in the next videos coming up but this is a great start to it. Chase, what do you got? The eyes on the folder is fabulous. I've seen it so many times. Even if the folder in many cases, hypothetically of course, was just full of a bunch of blank pieces of paper and... Yeah, a lot of interrogators do that. And we'll talk about some of the ways that that happens here in a minute but I like in this a great job of showing all the negativity that's taking place. Anything that's negative going on is outside that door. It's not me. And he's using team pronouns. What are we going to do here? I'd like for us to get this handled. I don't know what they are going to do. Which is great. This is why when I train police departments I say you should almost never have an officer in uniform in the room conducting an interrogation. It should always be a plain closed person. Most of the time. And I subscribe to a different interrogation theory than probably Scott or Greg. My personal philosophy is that if the person knows there's an interrogation happening then I have lost. So I do a completely different game than you guys do. You guys do a lot more criminal stuff anyway. My job was a little different. The 60 to 70 people that are working on this is a build up for the technique the credibility of evidentiary findings. So we see his immediate shift to chest breathing here these rapid movements rapid compliance. If you look at this again when the video plays again I want you to look at this. It's like an eight or nine year old who's been scolded and then said sit here I'll be back in a few minutes. You have to see the same fear responses there. It's not deceptive but it's a lack of information and it is really high stress. And guilty people will tend to want to see what you have on them before they continue to speak. So that's why his eyes are locked on the folder. Innocent people typically in my experience don't lock on the folder like that. And a lot of times it doesn't have evidence in there. We're going to see that in a second too. I'll be talking about that. And in many interrogation schools they say in a situation like this we need to apply minimization or rationalization. So minimization it's not that big a deal I've seen way worse cases or rationalization they had it coming anyone in your situation would have done the same thing not in cases like this. So typically there's damage control, recognition, saving face, significance or getting in front of the problem especially in these cases. And that's all I'll say about that. And Mark I'll give it over to you. Wait, did Mark go? No, I'll go. Yeah, so what I love about the DS here is he knows he's got this folder in the back and I think really he's got at this point he's got about a couple of things in that folder at max he has proximity because the next door neighbor didn't work out. So he's next in row. So that's why he's in it's like okay he's next door neighbor to the next door neighbor. There's something about tire width and maybe they work this shoe thing out at this point. I think they have. So he's maybe got three things three things in that folder pretty thick folder for three things. So any comes but before he plays that he says he got any questions to me now what I love about that is before he plays any of his cards he's always open to going hey just you know talk I'm giving you an option to talk right now give me something if you want to give me something now it doesn't it doesn't deliver anything but what what a brilliant play you know you know you have potentially your best card in the back but you don't rush to it you go I can play that at any point I'm going to try another way before I go and play that I'm just going to go you got any questions for me and see what happens nothing transpires but I think that's really great technique not to play that card immediately so he does come back in and yeah we are seeing a lot of stress there he's locked down his breathing rate is is is right up and again the futility is pushed on him every time I walk out of this this room there's another issue that comes up it's the futility of do not let me walk out of this room again every time I walk out of this room there's another issue that comes up it's like we got to solve it together right now and I I love that because it's pushing the drama in and this is a classic dramatic convention you know in Hamlet it's like Poland to coming don't let Poland come and it heats up it creates this crucible where the thing needs to get solved right there and then because we don't want the outside influence crushing in on us so brilliantly played there that's what I got on that one who got left me okay yeah so when you come this is a real really the first confrontational situation we've seen it we confront them with when he comes in and says you know I've showed you respect in other words you know he's saying you're not showing me respect there are a couple of ways to go about doing this when he first come in and he did it right because he came in and he was standing when he started saying this and he hit the word here really hard but when I get a call from somebody from wherever they are and they go so how should I handle this part of it when you say when you go in lean on the table you may have ever seen that picture Joan of Arrows where he's leaning on the table and leaning over not that hard core but you lean on the table and you look at him and say listen is there any reason whatsoever so you look at him why you're why when you when you start into that when you start that confrontation you're dead on him he's not doing that because he's playing that accounting thing where he's like hey man these guys I tell you what here's it's a Colombo and I got to tell them back that they really want me to use this here because I'm working here great he he has this very well but that's like Chase was saying different styles of approaching these things whereas Greg and I make maybe a little bit more aggressive this guy is really being laid back as he's doing this and it works great it's perfect for this obviously because when he leaves to check see the one thing we didn't have was the video of him sitting there by himself because I don't know how long this guy's been gone I would love to see that love to see him sitting there squirms in that head going those eyes going back and forth and rearranging as we got in there because now he's in that position where Chase was saying earlier and Greg's agreeing and everybody's agreeing it doesn't really mean much you know when you're doing that now it means everything you think it means you've always heard it means the person is stressed they're not into what's being said and they're guarding themselves that's what we're seeing here because his feet are starting to cross his arms across he's laying back a little bit he's pushed back in that chair we're seeing all the classic lines of oh you know what at this point then he goes back to reciprocity when he says you know I've been I've been treating you with respect and again he's leaning into that you're not treating me with respect because you're not being completely honest with me and there are not 60 or 70 people working on this there's probably nine other homicides they're working on this thing but he blows this thing up in this guy's mind like oh my god all these people are doing it's like ants running around and figuring this thing out that's not happening he may have told him that I don't know if you guys haven't experienced anywhere else but I've never seen that 60 or 70 people it's too mindless to be 60 or 70 people there you know much less working on one homicide case departments aren't that big so then he said yeah when I came back he said I told you I'd treat you the same way that I asked you to do the same thing that's where he kind of sticks it up there and says I asked you to do this the same thing he's getting aggressive with him there so now it's on at this point the whole thing is he knows he's pinned and he's getting ready to box him in here in just a couple of minutes so anyway that's all I've got I mean everybody else Chase couple of things remember it does vary like I if you're going to be a hard ass and you're going to do that in law enforcement that might be one thing but if you're doing intelligence interrogation or you're doing something with remember that's my ball of wax is intelligence and then counter terror that's a different angle and then police is a different angle than what Scott does so guys what we want you to hear is every one of these has to take a different approach and so as a good interrogator you got I always say it's theater for one you got to be believable from the outside it might look goofy but if you're believable to the guy sitting across the table from you that's what matters and he's believable to this guy because he's taking the right approach often honestly intelligence interrogation where you're trying to get a guy to commit treason is much like this investigation where the guy's going to roll over and die I mean his career is over this is personal extinction for this guy so all that subtlety has to go into it and I think that's a great call out Chase and Mark what you're hitting on with the futility all this stuff is starting to come together and the futility will come in one sentence and it's a beautiful close when he does it I think it comes together nicely great stuff and I will say to your point Greg one of the best things I've learned in interrogation is it costs less cognitive energy to actually care temporarily just to plug that in so I never feel like I'm acting especially in the moment I do the best I can to actually care to where I'm not acting because it just burns me out but that's a personal thing for me well if you don't have enough intellectual curiosity to wonder why the guy did it don't go in this business because if you don't really care why the guy did it you can't do this because it's demanding but if you really care and you're interested you can meet some horrific people have done horrific things and sometimes in their own mind for the right reason it's really interesting work so anyway yeah and Greg you're right it's theater that's the way I start off I say keep in mind what this is it's theater for one and once you get that in your brain that that's what's going on I never say it's a game but it really is I mean all it is is this big chess game going on I'm good to work sometimes it's checkers just depends on the person you have any questions for me right now I'm just going to step out and see how things are going okay I mean it is a Sunday but there's probably 60 70 people working on this file so there's a lot of things happening so let me go out and see what's happening and then I'll come back in and hopefully continue okay I told you when I came in here that I'm going to treat you with respect and I've asked you to do the same for me we talked about the whole idea of how we've approached you here the trying to be as just read as possible but the problem is Russell is every time I walk out of this room there's another issue that comes up and it's not issues that point away from you it's issues that point at you and I want you to see what I mean alright that's true too this is the footwear impression of the person who approached the rear of Jessica Lloyd's house on the evening of the 28th and 29th of January okay alright now I want you to keep in mind that this is slightly smaller okay in scale okay okay alright that's not to scale that's the footwear is actually bigger if you look here on the ruler you'll see that one inch is just slightly smaller than an actual inch okay but this is the way it prints off on the computer I'm going to move this over so you can see what I mean alright essentially when you're dealing with footwear impressions we have a gentleman on the OPP who's basically world renowned his name is John Norman and essentially with footwear impressions you're in a situation where you're pretty much in the area of fingerprints okay and essentially what we're talking about here is especially when you start adding in other pieces of information that support an investigative position okay this is a photocopy of the boot that you took off your foot just a little while ago okay now I'm not an expert on footwear impressions so I rely on the experts footwear impressions are very much like like fingerprint comparisons you take a look at this print and again this is one print this person walked through there's several different prints to compare so we're going to get features off a one print to compare features off another print to compare these are identical okay your vehicle drove up the side of Jessica Lloyd's house your boots walked to the back of Jessica Lloyd's house on the evening of the 28th and 29th of January okay you want discretion we need to have some honesty okay because this is getting out of control really fast Russell okay really really fast this is getting beyond my control alright I came in here a few hours ago and I called you the way I called you today because I wanted to give you the benefit out mm-hmm but you and I both know you were at Jessica Lloyd's house and I need to know why let's see well you need to explain it Greg what do you got yeah so now his face has stopped all movement he's got a fake confusion thing again and it's gone rapidly he's got shorter utterances and you can see he's just kind of fallen apart now on the other side from the interrogator the we know all is here tightly look it's your vehicle your boots you progressively tighter loop and then he goes out of his way to say look I've been trying to help you there's a clear accusation there's a trust request again it's that whole thing of look I gave you this there's the dangling the carrot there's one last incentive look I'm gonna try to help you but you have to help me too I'm your advocate but things are running out very quickly there's an incentive with a timeline and this feeds to his next ploy which is gonna be okay that I'm gonna take away the carrot if you don't do what I need you to do there's fake confusion there's short utterances remember I talk about I got being trapped in his own head when a person's trapped in their own head everything slows down and they sit there and they think they're thinking at normal speed but they're actually I'm sorry to giggle but they think they're thinking at normal speed and they're rolling over dumb ideas in their head at increasingly snail like pace so the silences get longer and longer and longer and chase you hit it dead on the master interrogator sits there quietly and waits the junior interrogator feels like they need to keep adding details women you're watching our show you know men don't know when to shut up talking when they're trying to close a deal on a date or any of that kind of thing there's no talkers in their own minds we don't know when to shut up and this is a good example most interrogators don't know when to shut up the reason women become masterful interrogators is because they listen they stop and they're quiet you also will notice once he does have anything to grasp onto his head whips toward it when the guy mentioned something his head whips like he's in some kind of a crazy place all these things being called out do we hear a single denial anywhere not one this guys in his own little brain case spinning in circles right now at a very slow rate of speed and he feels like he's moving rapidly Mark what do you get yeah so first brilliant thing that happens here is the DC manages to shift Williams from his from his resistance posture and he does that by you know what you'd normally do if you were being polite and giving somebody something you'd hand it right into their space what he does is just push it forward onto the table where it's not going to be quite visible so Williams has to come forward open up his body and destabilize himself so again first of all we make our places and then those places decide how we're going to act and react the way we're going to think so he destabilizes him with this it's a technique that I'll often use if I want to get information out of people or them to tell me stuff that they wouldn't normally tell me so quickly I'll just say hey just take a look at this for me and let's look at it together and by getting their eyes down onto the document or the drawing or whatever it is I can then scooch by right next to them sit right next to them we're not we've not got eye contact so there's no aggression there's no pushback there and we can sit and we can talk about what we have in front of us we can make that the problem and if we make this the problem and the issue they'll start talking about that problem and that issue rather than it being a problem and an issue between us in antagonism so it's great that he manages to shift him from that resistance posture you see him doing the comparison there trying to work out you know are there is there is there something that could be different enough that I could go hey that's not my boot but there's nothing there so he ends up nodding along to the thesis Smith is laying on just a lot of futility here but he does soften it by giving him an exit you know it was your vehicle your boots not saying you did it just saying can we can we just sign up to the idea that your vehicle and your boots I'm not saying you were in the boots at the time we'll get there eventually but if you want so yeah so it was possibly my yeah I mean I guess it could have been my boots okay great so explain that how would have your boots been good if we're saying it's your boots how did that happen it's a great option that he might sign up to the I think we see some contempt and disdain there I'm not sure when I just have it as a note here so take a look back there I haven't said when it is at all and what it's to do with but I've said here but I that I saw it so so go find it for me and tell me where it was look what's wonderful about this is he's pretty much done now he's trapped and at this point he says I don't know what to say I don't know what to say so he's got nothing to get himself out of this and so at this point I would suggest psychologically he's now going to accept help if you give him some help he's going to go thank you very much because I'm out of ideas right now so I would say DC Smith has him he has him there in a position where he may well accept some help in this situation have we got next Scott okay all right well and then there's a little folder that pulls out I've got one thing I always teach and it's the thunk factor when you pull out that folder it's got to go thunk really loud and you push it away so they can't get to it I'm not anybody grab mine before but so the bigger it is the thunkier it is but the more power that thing has in it the time he takes to explain what's happening to the time he confronts them with that a minute and 53 seconds that is so wow as he starts going through that and explaining to him what these things are just if you'll notice the difference in the thing this guy's freaking out in there he's flipping out so he's thinking they know and when he finally says when he tells him he's nailed oh my goodness but it takes a minute and 53 seconds to get in there and up to that point I don't know if you guys have ever showed a kid like a card trick or some kind of magic trick he's just sitting there doing it and the little kid comes up the table and this is exactly what he looks like he's looking he's watching trying to figure out what the hell's going on so that's what that reminds me of he's so he's so focused it's humorous it's funny I don't know why this guy didn't want to laugh at him oh man I've got so much stuff on here and like going back to Mark's thing a buddy of mine Jason was a sergeant and Greg's man over it here in Nashville and in the homicide department and as we were talking about getting people to open up a little bit and so what he said he would always do if somebody was all corked up like this all corked up what he would do is say hey man why don't you will you draw something or will you sign something he'll bring something over so they have to go okay and go over here and sign it I thought that was brilliant and I never thought of it it's so simple but it's so easy to get him to do it yeah this is we're just this is one of those things in a couple of minutes it's going to be like a football game because you see that's not for the person watching this you're watching this as it's boring for you but we're going to get all worked up because or I do anyway because it's almost like a football game he's headed down toward the touchdown and you just want to start screaming yeah man you got it but it's quiet there's nothing going on and when we talk about how this is going to be boring there's not a lot going on it looks really unexciting but we like it this is what we're talking about this is the big action this is that I'm a long ways away I'm not a sports guy whatever it is this is out of the hill yeah not Hail Mary but it's that play where the guy's running down the field and nobody's touching him but they're in front of him and you're yelling for him to get through it's so exciting at this point God's is so hardly nerdy to be saying that but as quiet as it is but it's anyway so this is coming up on the most exciting part of the whole thing Chase what do you got I don't know a whole lot about crime scene stuff I do know that you can present fake evidence in the United States but before we get to that this leaning forward thing if you think of the time that you signed the documents to buy your first house the time you decided to buy your first house the time you decided to buy your first house the time you decided to go home with someone at the end of a date the time you decided to marry a person the time you decided to buy a car that maybe you knew you shouldn't do any big decision we lean forward any time I'm training in persuasion interrogation doesn't matter what it is we make big decisions with our backs off of a chair so the rule of thumb there that I have up on a slide or whatever behind me never ask a person to make a decision while their back is touching a chair slide them a cup of water slide a document across the table for them to look at or lean forward and start speaking in a little bit lower tone which we call a conspiratorial tone like we're going to tell them a secret get them to lean forward leaning forward automatically for most people going to open their arms up so back to fake evidence fake evidence is legal sadly and maybe it's a good thing for all the interrogators and police but it is there and it is legal and it can be presented pretty well and I just downloaded this crime scene photo of one of the footprints from suspect in Canada here which you guys may recognize you'll never take me alive it looks very official looks very official that's how easy it is to build that folder and plop it on the table like Scott was saying so in an interrogation that is a big deal his interest level in the evidence would set my meter off where I would just about bet my reputation that the guy's guilty just that one reaction of his anticipatory response examined the evidence innocent people will look at it and say there's no possibility that there's a match I wasn't there, didn't do it I know I wasn't there, I don't need to take a look at that unless you're forging something so I think he's saying footwear and all this other stuff is in the realm of fingerprints I don't know if that's a deal or not I'm not an expert in that kind of stuff but his willingness is a bad sign to investigate this stuff and he's saying these are identical Williams is nodding so the first thing you learn in writing fiction and writing a fiction book is to set a ticking clock from the very beginning or close to the beginning a ticking clock and sometimes it's a true ticking clock like in the movie speed but in other times we have to get this file from this office building that's locked up within the next 48 hours or something's going to happen he's doing this it gets him out of control these people are coming in when they come through that door we're going to lose control really fast and he says this is going to be beyond my control which is a beautiful statement here and then he does what's called understanding when he says we both know x I need to know y so this is what's called a light alternative question and that would have been great there to say is it because of a or is it you know the bad thing and if I'm investigating some kind of embezzlement or somebody took some money from a company I might say there's a human trafficking investigation going on right now that's downtown they're laundering a ton of money or they're pulling in a lot of trafficking money into human trafficking if this is not related to that I need to know right now this was just a simple mistake and you're not feeding these people this money I need to know as soon as possible so that's an alternative question where it's a horrible thing or maybe it was a mistake so all of his comments have been about status rank privilege can be leveraged here so that would be one of those things where you said well if you were just there to check on someone who maybe you thought they were in trouble that's a whole different thing than you know you being a bad guy but I still think this is absolutely masterful I'm not saying he didn't do or he did anything wrong the long pause the lack of denial indicators of guilt and I would say just about everybody in this situation and when he says I don't know what to say this is begging for help and this is the box he's about to put the lid on that's all I got hey at the risk of making this any longer also when people are interested they lean forward they put their hands on the document when they're not their hands go on their thighs and they lean forward to look at like it's a poisonous snake in a box watch him if I chase what you're saying about fake evidence if you do have a folder full of stuff you have it too much so it pokes out then you have a little plastic thing on there so you can peel off an ape and put another one on and use the same one pretty much every time and you're going to do something like that theoretically and the thunk factor it's got to be something good this is the footwear impression of the person who approached the rear of Jessica Lloyd's house on the evening the 28th and 29th of January okay now I want you to keep in mind that this is slightly smaller in scale that's not to scale the footwear is actually bigger if you look here on the ruler you'll see that one inch is just slightly smaller than an actual inch but this is the way it prints off on the computer I'm going to move this over so you can see what I mean essentially when you're dealing with footwear impressions we have a gentleman on the OPP who's basically world renowned his name is John Norman and essentially with footwear impressions you're in a situation where you're pretty much in the area of fingerprints and essentially what we're talking about here is especially when you start adding other pieces of information that support an investigative position this is a photocopy of the boot that you took off your foot just a little while ago now I'm not an expert in footwear impressions so I rely on the experts footwear impressions are very much like fingerprint comparisons okay you take a look at this print and again this is one print this person walked through there's several different prints to compare so we're going to get features off a one print these are identical your vehicle drove up the side of Jessica Lloyd's house your boots walked to the back of Jessica Lloyd's house on the evening of the 28th and 29th of January you want discretion we need to have some honesty because this is getting out of control really fast Russell really really fast this is getting beyond my control alright I came in here a few hours ago and I called you the way I called you today because I wanted to give you the benefit of doubt but you and I both know you were at Jessica Lloyd's house and I need to know why well you need to explain it because one to nine well you need to explain it because this is the other problem we're having Russell okay these decisions are made by me right now there's a search warrant being executed at your residence so your wife now knows what's going on there's a search warrant being executed at your residence to lead when your vehicle is deceased you and I both know they're going to find evidence that links you to these situations you and I both know that the unknown offender male on Marie Franco's body is going to be matched to you quite possibly before the evening is over okay this is a major investigation the Center of Forensic Sciences on call 24 helping us with this your opportunity to take some control here and to have some explanation that anybody is going to believe is quickly expiring okay we're applying the investigators now applying for a warrant to search your office these aren't decisions that we can say yes or no to this is the practical steps in an investigation like this and Russell listen to me for a second when that evidence comes in when that DNA match comes in somebody knocks on this door your credibility is gone okay because this is how credibility works and I know you're an intelligent person and you probably don't need to hear this explanation but I also know your mind is racing right now because I've sat across a lot of people in your position over the years the bottom line is as soon as we get that that piece of evidence that solidifies it DNA as soon as the expert and footwear impressions the expert entire impression calls and says yes I've examined those and they're a match it's all over because as soon as that happens where's your credibility where's your believability you're just another and again don't take this wrong okay but you can see if you step outside this room in your mind and imagine how people are going to view you okay if the truth comes out after the clear evidence is presented to you when you finally go okay I'm screwed now Mark what do you got so he's given the opportunity here to take back some control and that opportunity is pretty overt here and then he says this is an opportunity to take back some control yes he's very very clear about that what I love and Chase you were talking about this conspiratorial I guess tonality you were maybe saying he does move his hands into what I would call the gesture plane of closure and disclosure which is a great place to be conspiratorial with people around the face and you can be covert and then very over but still in a covert way and essentially that's what he's doing is going hey we can work this out together we don't have to bring in them over there let's not let them in let's you and me get back some control around this so some very skillful play there of offering what he wants back and you're going to get that through me and that plays out really nicely for him because he does only in the end want to talk to this DS he wants to deal completely through him he wants him to call him Russ and not Russell you know this is now his best best friend because this best friend is secretly going to get him out of out of trouble because he's not at all he's going to he's going to absolutely slam the lid on it so there's what I'll give you on that who we got next Greg sure yeah so there's an act of submission that is one of the most powerful and that is putting the top of your skull in someone's striking range his skull is in striking range right now in this guy he's laid put his head down when you think of bowing that's absolutely showing the most vulnerable part of your body you can't see anymore your eyes are focused on the ground his head is down he's trapped in inner voice this guy is now scrambling all he's doing is revolving around whatever is being said to him he's reducing his utterances to you can barely understand him that's all low energy that's all internal focus all integral internal conversation we've now got him mark when he puts his hand to his mouth when he starts to do that it's pre confession now I also want you to go back and watch remember I'm going to talk good things about this interrogator but there's a duck moment instead of swan moment in here go find it tell me where you see him go uh-oh you'll hear him double clutch meaning he's going to step on himself one time and you can see it he's like oh I think I just shot myself in the foot bind it write it in the comments below this is a great moment one of the few we see in this guy so when I'm criticizing it's not criticizing because I think he's not good it's just he's self-aware enough to realize he's made a mistake we talked approaches he is doing pride and ego up I know you're an intelligent man he's doing fear up fear up people think of throwing chairs and screaming no it's hey there's a bear on the other side of that wall right there and all I got one can of bear spray and it's not for you that's a fear up that's not screaming and yelling that's letting him know there's a threat and he has to do something about it it's inevitable you've seen the evidence everybody's seen the evidence there's a lot of people working on this there's futility without saying it's futile we know all we have more information than we've even given you and then there's that incentive there's still a little bit of a chance that you can leave this with some dignity that's beautiful stuff all starting to come together he hasn't pulled it all together yet he's mentioning them individually in the next round you're going to hear the most masterful sentence I've heard an interrogation in many years where he just it all locks together and it's a beautiful thing he's giving him permission to confess he's being silent and he's allowing this guy to work and it's working it's getting in his head Scott what do you got all right I'll keep this one short he's he's about to give up if he hasn't just yet but he knows he's gonna have to that's that's where his head's sitting but he hasn't yet but he's getting right there and he starts hitting him with this evidence like one two three and you can see there's he knows there's no way out of this at this point he knows it and and Smith never uses we us he always says you and I so at this point he gets it back to of those that out there back to hey man it's me and you so and then he started then he throws out the the lifeline saying and giving him hope if happens you're walking out there with some respect okay that's all I'll say I'll keep it short chase what do you got I think it's great that he phrases everything positive in this room everything it's negative is gonna happen is out there and these were executing a warrant on your house these are decisions we we don't have a choice in you and I we can't stop these things from happening and he uses the word unknown offender to describe that the person I just personally would have used the word person I would never use a negative connotation for the criminal or the crime so instead of murder I would I would say hurt or something similar to that very good job here using the victims actual name instead of saying the word victim I think and your opportunity to take some control here when he's saying this sentence absolutely brilliant and he sees him pouring through the evidence and stops and he decides to just kind of I'm gonna back off a little bit I'm gonna let all of these gears spin because he set the machine in in motion and it's good to no longer use their name toward the confession the closer you get towards a confession the less often you want to use their name that's what their parents call them that's what their friends call them that's with their confidence is tied to that name you want to take it take that away and just say hey what are we gonna do here leave the name off so he's using what's called presuppositions when they find this when they knock on the door when this happens all of these things as soon as the experts tell us X Y and Z it's all over so instead of letting him sit there and stew and think of things he did that for a few minutes and then just in case his software wasn't processing all these other stuff he literally uploaded and installed all the software he needs to make all that happen instead of just letting it happen through natural means which I think is fantastic that's one of the things that I teach just that deliberately installing exactly the program that you need to start running so he's forcing him our brain is a prediction machine it's number one job is besides keeping your heart beating and breathing is making predictions so he's forcing Williams to accept new data to add to the prediction formula in his head so the outcome changes we're making the outcome darker and darker as it goes on brilliant work here can't wait for the next video this is great that's all I got well you need to explain it because this is the other problem we're having Russell okay again these decisions are made by me right now there's a switch mark being executed at your residence and so your wife now knows what's going on the search was being executed at your residence to lead and your vehicles were seized you and I both know they're going to find evidence that links you to these situations you and I both know that the unknown offender male on Marie transcombo's body is going to be matched to you quite possibly before the evening's over okay this is a major investigation the center of forensic sciences on call 24 every day helping us with this your opportunity to take some control here and to have some explanation that anybody is going to believe is quickly expiring okay we're applying the investigators now applying for a warrant to search your office these aren't decisions that we can say yes or no to this is the practical steps in an investigation like this and Russell listen to me for a second and that evidence comes in when that DNA match phone rings and somebody knocks on this door your credibility is gone okay because this is how credibility works and I know you're an intelligent person and you probably don't need to hear this explanation but I also know your mind is racing right now because I've sat across a lot of people in your position over the years the bottom line is as soon as we get that that piece of evidence that solidifies it DNA as soon as the expert in footwear impressions the expert entire impression calls and says yes I've examined those and they're a match it's all over because as soon as that happens or as your credibility you're just another and again don't take this wrong but you can see if you step outside this room in your mind and imagine how people are going to view you okay if the truth comes out after the clear evidence is presented to you when you finally go okay I'm screwed now Russell you know there's only one option what other option is there what's the option well I don't think you want the cold-blooded psychopath option I might be wrong because I don't get me wrong I've met guys who actually kind of enjoyed the notoriety got off on it got off on having that label Bernardo being one of them I don't see that in you if I saw that in you I wouldn't be back in your talking to you quite frankly but maybe I'm wrong maybe you got me fooled I don't know this is over and it can have a bad ending where Jessica's parents continue to wonder where her daughter's lying I don't know I mean obviously there's a huge search still underway and it'll continue it'll continue until her body's found that might even happen tonight for all I know once that happens then I don't know what other cards you would have to play what are we gonna do Jessica somewhere we can find her easily I guess it's something where I can make a call and tell somebody to go to a location they're gonna find her or is it something where we have to go and take a walk alright Greg you go first sure this is my favorite ever pre-confession by let's talk about both of them individually because I want to celebrate this investigator in his own sentence but in the beginning this guy's asking for now you can't miss it he starts the pre-confession thing he's dropping his chin he's trying to get away from this he's looking away listen to his respiration he's going into a very emotional respiration almost like he's about to cry you can hear emotions starting to take over now remember I talk about cat brain monkey brain lizard brain this guy's getting out of cat brain and heading back in the monkey back in the lizard brain he's getting to where he's just barely functioning and he's rifling around inside his own head and running around in there like I said before in his own brain case so now he's given out and you see that emotion starting to take control of him he starts to do some throat protecting and then ultimately he puts his hand up this way and balls up there's a very famous confession by a guy of a guy named Rex Krebs who killed Rachel Newhouse in California a few years ago when you show that video it's beautiful and it's exactly what he does it takes longer than this guy does because the guy was not quite as good at closing in on him during interrogation now this investigator runs an approach now we talked about approaches before he does pride and ego up he's saying look I don't think you're a psychopath but maybe you are there's a pride and ego up pride and ego down both sides of it there's an incentive I'm trying to save you I'm trying to give you this opportunity to look and then he does a fear down I'm sorry a fear up by saying look maybe you're like this other guy that I interrogated who's a scumbag maybe you're not a good person then he lowers his voice and goes into that futility piece and it just quietly sneaks into this guy's operating system and then he does a presumptive question where are we going to find your body? Game over beautiful end to a fantastically orchestrated interrogation we need this guy on the show Chase what do you get? This is a technique from a few interrogation manuals depending on where you look but you're offering an out but it's not defined to see if they're willing to grab it so I'm just going to hang something out see if they want to grab it or not typically innocent people won't want to grab that they'll want to leave the room and I want you to keep in mind as you're watching this none of us that are sitting here are immune to interrogation none of us there's no we don't get some secret vaccine that makes us immune in the emotional state that Williams is in right here all of us would be similarly susceptible or suggestible to a lot of those techniques they work on highly emotional people and I want you to keep in mind Williams brain is hearing less than half of what is being said less than half so when they say repetition is the key to interrogation that's not because you're repeating it to brainwash a person that's because you're repeating stuff they're not hearing it all in the first place so we asked this alternative question and I think it's being used here masterfully you can either look like X or Y when people hear about this and depending on what course you take there's 10 categories for why people confess there's social preservation trustification, minimization receiving benefits like a promise or a deal trust, conscience, evidence status, desire to confess and finally force and there's maybe some other ways or you can pull out a thesaurus and grab five or six more but that's a very common quote if I thought you were the type of person to do blank I would not have even come here at all the reason I'm here is to figure out if this happens so we can both get ahead of this and another common interrogation phrase I don't think you'll ever hear in an interrogation video is I think the reason that you did this is the same reason that I wanted to come in here and talk to you because I think you are a genuine person I think you did intend to do the right thing and that's why I came in here Scott quit laughing so so I like it where he's saying we're all going to run out of cards to play post a secondary alternative question is it A or B are you good or bad and when he says we're going to run out of cards to play what are we going to do instantaneously he gets call me Russ I need to yeah that's pins down that's pins down when he says that I almost did this just yeah he's done call me Russ please if you watch watch this video the final thing I'll say here when you watch this back watch right after he says call me Russ watch the interrogators body language and the suspects body language they instantaneously synchronize and the confession begins guys I would say all of this stuff works because of Maslow's hierarchy of needs and what you do an effective interrogator bonds tightly and creates a new normal so this person is now trying to create a steam with the person who's interrogating him and this was masterful yeah yeah okay well this is this is a part where that long silence it was 26 seconds after he ends there and he just sitting there looking at all that stuff and thinking he doesn't say a word doesn't say anything at this point I know we're all going it's like that's the that's the long football run at that point we're all going yeah yeah go because he knows he's got to keep it zipped and so he does right then just put and the pressure builds on Williams and it builds and builds and builds and you can feel it in there and you can see it on that's what that's the exciting part about it and so I'll talk about part of his body language stuff as well he's sitting way back in that chair and then he comes as he's as he's oh and he's gripping himself this is the highest his arms have been at this point this is the highest they've been and he's again like Greg said it's that bow constrictor thing where he's squeezing himself and it's getting hard to breathe but he's really really still at this point that that's when if you'll take a look at their body language as well this is where the boxing in comes comes to an end because Smith hasn't boxed in he's got a boxed in from from talking to him he's got a boxed in from physically being there with him this is the closest they've been the whole time and this is usually where if it doesn't go if he hadn't gotten it there what he would have done was reached over and touched my leg and said hey man we all make a mistake he would have gone down that road you know that he's close enough to reach out and touch it that's the key right there touch them on the leg or touch them on the arm depending on the relationship you've got going at that point but yeah that that's right you guys have covered a lot of this but this is like a classic confrontational pose and then when he does say it's over like that and he goes that too soon at that point number two exactly like whoops he's like I got I got I got I got and that's why he keeps talking but he his voice this is the only time his voice changed it's not a whole lot Smith's voice but it starts that little thing a little bit of like hey man it goes down a little bit lower the tone goes lower it's not as loud it's a little bit softer and he starts saying you know hey man that's that when he gets into that and then what he says what are we going to do that's when that silence starts because he's and that's he just okay what are you going to do and that's when we see Smith running down the dang running down the field we're hollering for him because that's what that's when the decision is going to be made am I am I giving up or not am I going to give up or not so that's when he's bobbing and we even through there and we see him doing this but we're all hollering for him yeah that's you guys got most of it there so Mark what do you got yeah lovely so so remember right at the start I was saying about there's this power play going on and just think about Williams as he walked in cast your mind back to that to that character who walked in and now who have we got and how quickly that happened I think we're at like three and a half hours here maybe maybe a little bit more maybe a little bit less but maybe three and a half hours we may go about that not our show but we may be we may be I don't know you tell me but but in terms of the interview here the interrogation it's about three and a half hours down the line and and we talked about okay this the DC here is going to build this idea of futility well he builds it to the point where he can be totally over about that and he says you know there is only one option now what better sentence describes futility you know there is only one option and and then but he's not finished because he's got a nice little card up his sleeve there where he plays Bernardo so for anybody who doesn't know Bernardo is a legendary serial killer in Canada actually just from up the road in Scarborough but not not far off Trenton okay and and he you know the DS here kind of assigns some kind of knowledge to Bernardo everybody knows Bernardo but he kind of ascribes some kind of connection with him as well so there is that moment of hey if you if you want to join if we want to join together and be like a Bernardo you can we can do that because like I've done a Bernardo before so if you want to go down Bernardo I'm good let's let's do that if you want to go down another route of not being that character hey I'm good for that as well I'm with you all the way but ultimately he goes but regardless of where it's going this is over now again just hits the futility there again we get a lot of size from Williams a lot of suspended breathing as well so I don't think his breathing quite knows what to do at this point I don't think his mind quite knows where to go on this and so and so we get that silence and we get hey what what are we going to do and he's got nothing he's got nothing which again causes us to understand that he's now open to any offer he's got now if he'd have gone down the route of what do I want to do I want to lawyer now that would be whole different that'd be a whole different thing but he hasn't even got that so he can lay down the idea of look where where are the bodies it leads into let's get a map you know we're going to walk out we're going to walk around you're going to point to it on the map there's that you can watch more of this yourselves and see where this leads and what he's saying here is it it's at this point where it is over for him because he's been boxed in the lid is down it's futile and he's now not in control of this at all and what a brilliant image of who you had walking in smiling at the camera at the start and who you have right now all credibility there to DS Jim Smith I know you're in the area so be lovely to say hi at some point so our door our virtual door is open to you anytime and my my actual door is open to you for big fans yeah yeah yeah too excited yeah so yeah if you see this hit us up it's the behavior panel at gmail.com you know there's only one option what do you what other option is there what's the option well I don't think you want the cold-blooded psychopath option I might be wrong because I don't get me wrong I've met guys who actually kind of enjoyed the notoriety got off on it got off and having that label Bernardo being one of them I don't see that in you if I saw that in you I wouldn't be back in your talking to you quite frankly but maybe I'm wrong maybe you got me fooled I don't know this is over and it can have a bad ending where Jessica's parents continue to wonder where her daughter is lying and I don't know I mean obviously there's a huge search still underway and it'll continue it'll continue until her body's found that might even happen tonight for all I know once that happens then I don't know what other cards you would have to play what are we going to do it's Jessica somewhere we can find her easily like is this something where I can make a call and tell somebody to go to a location and they're going to find her or is this something where we have to go and take a walk and if anybody's still watching this please subscribe if they want a single part of my mother mom subscribe so yeah just hit that little red thing down there and subscribe to our channel this is a good one fellas see you next time alright Chase what do you got