 There we go now. We're live. Holy shit. Sorry guys and I have a lot of troubles with the OBS lately Professional streamer man goose. Yep. Always always. It's not my Wi-Fi. It's me Anyway, hello everyone and welcome back to for the majors the weekly show we talk about a variety of upcoming third-person Mobas, I'm your host the man goose join me as always is need to find gentlemen starting, of course with the man the myth the tin foil legend Jelly knees. Hey, don't jelly. I am fantastic man goose So I made the mistake of adding a co-worker on discord this week and he goes the man of many tin foil hats But it was entertaining nevertheless, but with us we have the Viking Jedi as well. How are you Viking? I'm doing so good I've really been enjoying playing Sons of the forest with you guys. Also, we got to try some rogue company this week Had not played before and that was a lot of fun. So Been taking a break. I don't know if I'm the only one but you're kind of taking a break from the The the pair of zombies just kind of burnt out on it a little bit I don't know if anybody else is feeling that same way chat. How are you guys doing? Welcome in But yeah, and how are you man goose? Oh doing great. Yeah, we've been having a lot of fun playing our sons of the forest I saved everybody with a grenade today. It was pretty awesome I Saved us with a grenade. I didn't nobody died. Did they they did not? So this week we're going to be talking about on the predecessors new patch We've actually got to experience it. We'll talk about over primed bringing in crunch towards the end of this week And then we're going to also talk about some a Kalea gameplay coming out of ethereal. So let me switch it on over You guys talk amongst yourselves while um, which in the media source over or just don't say anything at all Yeah, we're gonna let you sit there and embarrass yourself That's awesome. Thanks guys. That's what I wanted exactly. Okay, JVN. You've been playing black ops, too Huh, okay. Oh dude that it's all a game right there All the game right there. So prep assessor zombies especially Predecessor dropped their patch and we actually have we talked about it last week. We actually had a chance to experience it this week I want to start with um, what I thought is just an incredibly well done part of it This patch just overall I think has greatly improved Pretty much anybody's experience with with predecessor. It's just yeah, this was a really good really solid patch that that they really needed But um, let's first start out with the AI. Do you have a versus AI? Mode now, which is absolutely amazing They warned us beforehand It's in beta that the AIs aren't gonna be that smart and they're not that smart for an experienced player For a new player coming in I think these is just challenging enough to where they're not gonna get like oh shit I'm getting beat by the AI. I'm not gonna play this game, but uh, it'll actually offer them a bit of a challenge They might actually die to the AI a few times and they'll learn the ropes of predecessor by playing it I think this is a great addition to the game It makes the game approachable to new players now, right? Because like you said, it's not the easiest They're not dumber than a box of rocks that we've seen with other games AI versions, right? But they're just difficult enough that it feels like I just need to do this better to get better than this bot Right and then from their scale you upwards into playing with real people So for a beta super super solid for this AI AI behave It's fairly smart if they're not geniuses, but they they do the jungler actually jungles They take objectives which that if I had to point one thing out as my favorite thing about them The taking fang tooth is probably my favorite thing that these bots do it's not just the jungler Like I've seen the mid laner I've seen the support both go into the jungle to support the jungler taking the fang tooth And if we can teach new players to do that via that AI system, that's huge I think the only thing that I would want is like an option to turn on like a Tutorial of sorts like you know so using that as a feature and now granted it's in beta So maybe they could take the same idea and apply it because to me This is the perfect opportunity to teach those exact things that jelly talking about the game mechanics like hey Your jungler is pinging to go to fang tooth. You should meet him there or you know Start but you should back now so that way you can be ready to take on fang tooth or the prime or whatever like Having those kinds of things like you know with as pop-ups as optional tutorials I think would make it even better than it already is because I do think the foundation and this is something I think we talked about with Fred as a whole the foundation is good It's just now building on top of it and we talked about that when the game was first going into early access that the The bones and the foundation of the game seem really solid We just need to add more features and then to their credit have been steadily Adding in more and more to me I'm not more a big Fred fanboy But this patch in particular has been my favorite patch to play on adding in shimby was a lot of fun The fang tooth changes were it was way way more impactful Most of my games people were very much aware that they needed to do it me as a solo laner I was paying way more attention that I need to try and back and be there Even if it means I'm sacking a wave or sacking even a turret to make sure that we're getting that stacking in our favor So it was a lot more fun and shimby. I know we're gonna go into her great addition. Yeah, so fun Compare her to the overprime version and I think that if you If you could combine the two of them it would be a perfect shimby because there's certain things and aspects that I think we wish for I was right on my prediction. I hate her ultimate I don't like the way that it the stacks and how confusing it can be in team fights Especially of who has the things because yes, I know it lights up above them But with all the other stuff that's going on and I'm about to die I just hit R and hope that it's going on somebody and Something because I don't want to I don't want to die with my ultimate up, right? You know like I'm an assassin I should try and do something but She feels really really fun to play and I have some okay counters In some of the other assassins and in mobile mobile champions. I think but yeah overall good. Yeah Well getting back to the AI Yes, one thing I really hope for whenever they do go free to play is that either Like I don't like it when you're required to play a certain amount of AI matches before you can go PvP, but I do wish that they offer some significant rewards Rewards that are hefty enough to encourage new players to play several eight versus AI games before they get into it And then of course they can add varying levels of difficulty to the to the AI as they go on You know, this is the base model AI they can add a lot to it. I just hope that they really um When they go free to play it's going to be a challenge. We've seen it with Even in predecessor itself. We've seen it in fault We've seen it over prime brand new players that have never played Paragon come into the game Get there the crap kicked out of them They get flamed by the the the people that have been around for a while and know and know what's going on It would be nice if they had a way to ease into the game And I think this AI is a perfect way to do that. It's not going to prep them completely for for PvP Of course, but at least they'll know a little bit about what they're supposed to be doing Yeah, I didn't like for the tutorial and stuff That's supposed to come in the next month, right? And we're heading into March 1st as of Wednesday of this coming week and by the end of March We're supposed to have a tutorial public API and spectator mode and replays Right. So those three things are going to be massive additions public API being able to create these third-party websites to do things with huge The tutorial absolutely massive even if it's a v1, right? Paragon never had a to an official tutorial This is going to be this an over-premise tutorial going to be the first tutorials of for this game Basically, we'll have to see what they do with and then the spectator mode, right? I tuned into the tournament yesterday the Agora tournament series something like that Mm-hmm the thing that drove me nuts from a production value standpoint was having to watch No matter what someone has to share their screen and then you have to watch the gameplay from that person's shared screen Yeah, it drives me insane It's really from what we've done with the over prime tournaments man goose Right being able to have that that choice of a either getting a greater scope of the fight by pulling the camera out of it Or going into a specific character to see their point of view right both of those are super super valuable and only having one side Feels like it's really lacking in comparison. So spectator mode I'm so excited for that because these tournaments will be able to take a step up in terms of production value when they're watching fights And and the game as a whole Yep And then of course I'll probably build on that even more to with like a draft mode in the future and stuff there We'll have enough heroes for a draft yet, but It would be good to see next month as well Hmm. I think a lot of people are looking forward to that. I mean, that's really going to show their chops If they can actually that'll be a sick or swim moment how well hunters goes and We've seen a little bit of video of hunters her her animations and everything look really clean and smooth Of course that you know, but they showed us what they wanted us to see of course Yeah, it would be dumb of them to show us like all the bugs and shit like I wouldn't expect them to do that But you do need to be aware that they showed us the best of what they add more than likely Of of hunters, but yeah, we're really going to see their their Creativity and how they can implement their own brand new hero Coming with hunters Let's let's let's move on though. Let's move on to shimmy with the introduction of shimmy Jedi touched on a little bit. I Think she's just possibly just a touch over tuned But not so bad that it's egregious and it's good enough to where everybody wants to play her Which like soul reaper talks about this one is stream all the time Whatever you introduce a new hero you need them to be a little bit over tuned so that you can get some data on them So that everybody's playing them and you can get the data you need to find out where they should be and where What their numbers should be like so I think she's in the perfect place as far as that goes Like I said, just a touch over tuned but not so not really bad and Jenna kind of talked about it She does have counters count us seems to counter shimmy Pretty pretty decently several for some reason I've seen a lot of people should be just fail into a several And I'm not sure but I understand what's going on there, but mm-hmm I think it's just because he's a big like a health pool tanky boy He also has a pretty good amount of mobility and his AOE ranged stun Really fucks with her in early stages of laning phase where so she doesn't get to pick on him I think at least in my matchups when I'm playing in her offline It was a lot more difficult to pick on him versus a lot of the other Matchups crunch is also a pain in the ass, but I think crunch is just stupid And in a pain in the ass for everybody to deal with but yeah, I He definitely felt like several has a place countering Offlane shouldn't be The shield seems to work really well with our e with it not it doesn't heal her anymore Shielding, but everybody builds life binder first anyway, so you just get a bunch of healing behind that shield It seems to work really well Like like you said her ultimate is a little difficult to manage sometimes You don't because you can have to you can have well like seven or eight stacks on sparrow But if you stack on somebody else you see the stacks on the new person you no longer know how many stacks you have On sparrow, it's not like they fall off like sequentially or anything But mm-hmm it would still be nice to know that you have how many stacks you had on your main target So there's a you know a few little UI issues going on there Yeah, I would still love that a if I'm looking at nobody Target the person with the most stacks and if but if I'm looking at a specific person target them with however many stacks Yeah, right and that way I have the best of both worlds I can do the fadeaways which I've done several times on Shin be and yeah feel amazing when you land You're doing right, but if I see a low health carry and I've got eight stacks on the tank Yes, my two stacks is less damage, but it might be enough to kill the carry. Let me target the carry Yeah, especially because she's getting seven stacks on her E right now If she lands every single hit on an enemy, which is just insane so but for tanks specifically That's really easy like I said last week get in her face stand there and take all of those hits and She won't be able to ult one of your carries Yeah, really good character really good hero very very smooth animations dash dash works quite well Just got a bit of a hair trigger on it. It's kind of hard not to double-dash sometimes like I don't know that That's probably just a me thing, but I've seen a lot of people have troubles with it So I don't think it's just a me thing but I Think it's just easy to spam your buttons when you're used to spamming buttons in general to get them to go off And obviously hers goes off very quickly but one of the things I've found to be most exciting and this is you can draw a comparison with overprime is Using her dash, I feel like I can use it in very high skill creative ways I've already seen some people were obviously better at the game than me use it in ways that I'm not expecting it to be used You know a lot of times it's easy to just be like, oh, well, I'm getting ganked just double-dash out and I'm probably safe Those are the easy ways what I'm talking about is like the way that they're weaving in and out and like You know creating interesting angles and dodging skill shots with it And I saw one jump like dash through somebody doing an ult or something like that And they didn't get hit with it and then they come back around and they're all spun around and it's like yeah That's the cool stuff that you could do if you're paying attention and not just spamming your your right clicks Her e I think is maybe the best ability that she has currently It's just so strong the fact that the shield regenerates on each tick basically so it's not just a flash shield It's based off of yes it is Okay, well I'm not playing initial I guarantee you read the ability It's on the initial cast and at the end of the ability it does not give you a shield on each tick of hit Okay, well that it's at the end of the ability within I guess, but I've definitely gotten multiple shields I'll just say that okay multiple shields and she's Louise I just it's cool that it does that that it's not just like you blow your load and then it's over like I do Like that you feel it felt continuously shielding to me. Okay. How about that? It was nice Yeah, she's she's really good that I complained and overprime about how her dash was too long And I think that people now understand if they played overprime and then played Fred why I felt her dash was too long You could be less aggressive with it when it's a super long dash because you were just you're not on your target anymore The way it's set up now kind of a short dash But you double dash so you can still get distance if you need it But you can use it very aggressively whenever you want to Well, I'm certain champions can still gap closer like so because that distance isn't super long They think that's what I'm saying with count is for example count is times her her jump in intelligently she can keep up with the The dashing Shinbi and still be able to get combos off, which is why I think she's probably the best counter into her Or at least it's a skill matchup if anything one of my favorite things on Shinbi has been Running time warp on her as a jungle Shinbi then ganking someone that's pushed past halfway Using all my abilities on them getting time warped back to the original As they're running away now. I'm also with all my abilities ready to go on them again. It's so fun When it works well feels terrible when you press the button incorrectly and you get warped back and you're like well damn it like That seems to be the main two lanes. I've seen her played into is off lane and jungle She has taken mid lane somewhat, but I I think she's a little less strong mid lane than she is and So a little in a jungle more mid lane play when a draft mode becomes available Because then you know you can plan better who you're going against right and then have an idea of What the matchup will be right like in certain mid lane matchups I feel like she could be okay, and then another she'll could just get bullied to hell So it's I think we could see a lot more Attached to her on that. Yeah All right, there's some other Really good stuff. I want to talk about with predecessor, but I'm gonna put a little I'm gonna make a little shit sandwich here I'm gonna we talked about some good things. I'm gonna talk about something that I didn't care for and then we'll talk about some good things again Let's talk about their monetization on their on their skins. They they finally have a shop You can spend the platinum or whatever you want to call it that you that you got from buying in the early access Into the game on the shop and you could use it to buy skins However, they're none of them are original skins. They're all either recall not even recolors for the most part just straight up They took epic ass head skins and and they're putting them in my problem is that they're selling them at either at the same price or Sometimes even more than epic was selling the same skins and we talked about this on the precast a bit and a lot of People were talking about inflation, you know, it's been time Okay inflation doesn't matter if you didn't do the work, all right, like I Used car doesn't gain value because of inflation. It loses value over time These assets are used assets and yes 100% think that ometta deserves to be rewarded for the work that they've done on the game But I think that we've already used that with the paid early access We use that to justify a paid early access I don't think you could also use it to justify them charging so much Epic assets skins. They did a lot. Yes, they did a lot of work But they did maybe a tenth of the work that epic did and they're selling the skins for the exact same price So I hundred percent don't agree with that. I'm not on board with it at all I it got pretty heated in the precast if you guys want to go watch that one would do the maces channel But I don't know. What are you guys thoughts? I know jelly's thoughts. Let's let's hit up Viking first Where you where your thoughts on this? I Mean I have a feeling that we're probably gonna be echoing each other's points because it Yeah, fairly for the most part feel the same way and I think a good portion in the community I was actually surprised by that that also feel like it was a bit weird I mean only to me it seems like the really really deep fanboys are either like I think this is fine or There the other thing is I just don't care And for the most part I guess there's something to be said like you don't need to care like you know It's yeah, it's not something you have to interact with I still take a different stance on that I think that by not caring it's actually in some ways worse because you're you're Allowing for it to To have a space in the first place and I think that this is something that is Predatory is the wrong word because it's not a predatory action. I think it's just gummy it feels it feels gross It feels it feels like you're Taking something that everybody who's currently part of your fan base and and just saying like I don't care that you know What these are I don't care that these are seven plus year old skins I don't care we're gonna charge you full price for them and you're just gonna have to be okay with that If you want to have a skin in the game, and I just think that sucks. I just don't like it I think it like you mentioned they didn't do 90% of the work You know and so many people I think forget about that when they think about like the production of skins like if there's concept art There's testing. There's there's the silhouetting they're making sure that it still matches the character and model and all that stuff They didn't have to design any of the art. They didn't have to design any of the colorings They didn't have to do it. They took it and they knew what was successful. What was popular? They didn't have to buy it. They didn't have to make it. They didn't have to do anything They just took it for free and put it into the game Bothers the shit out of me. I just it just it seems lazy It makes me feel like you got all these like they talked about all this investment money and all that stuff to make The game great, but then you're gonna sell us Recolors of skins that you didn't have to come up with in concept even if it took You know an insane amount of man hours to put into the game. That's it doesn't matter You didn't even have to come up with the characters in the first place It's not even like these are your original IP characters Everything is borrowed from a game that is is dead and gone seven plus years ago and that bothers the shit out of me it just I don't know and I know there's a lot of people in the pred community that Feel similarly as we do but there's also still a large portion that are like oh, no, this is fine They need to recoup money. They need to be profitable. They need this. I'm like, no, that's not how that works, dude They don't need to be profitable because out of with laziness, you know, like that's to me that's what it feels like it just feels lazy and Well trying to take the maximum amount like it's okay if people are like, oh, you don't have to interact with it But they put it into the shop hoping that people would yeah, like that's the whole thing They didn't just put it there and be like, yeah, we'll just throw this up there and see if it sticks No, they they want people to buy these skins and that bothers me because it's somebody I think I said it on my stream. It's a daddy business daddy business is the ones putting this out there It's not I say this is not me giving shit about like the guys who are you know Trying to make balance as good as possible and you know and are messing in the background of everything like the On the ground devs it's business daddy coming in and putting their thumb on the the scale For in pushing this concept of monetization out there. It's a joke. I think it's not predatory, but it's scummy It's good. It feels icky and I don't like it. That's it. That's my big take jelly. You can take it away I mean, so I'll address chat. Let's do a little bit here that Ike talks about what about the non-old Paragon players They end them wanting the skins. It's not an issue of wanting the skins I want the skins 100% right the chimera skin that's in there right now I have toyed with the idea of buying that skin several times and I haven't Right because the six dollars for it is wild That's that's the problem is it's not a matter of wanting the skins It's not even like shitty skins or shitty skins every game puts out a shitty skin fine Right people are going to buy that shitty skin because they don't think it's shitty That's perfectly fine as well right? That's that that's their prerogative The issue here is not that they're releasing re-releasing epic assets. It's the price point the re-releasing epic assets at They're not doing the work on it They're jacking up the prices so they can make more money and that's insane to me if any if any of these other games overprime got so much flack for their skin prices when they came out and The skin prices in predecessor are just as egregious for the skin the skin tears and nobody saying a word Or not nobody I wouldn't say nobody saying a word There's a lot of people say it's a word people are saying the word are Talking about it and the people that were complaining about overprimes are now the ones defending predecessor over it That's insane Right they like they even further the recolors specifically I went in and I looked at all of the other mobas in the market not just overprime But smite League of Legends Dota and even Paragon's recolors back in the day when it was still on and all of them Overprime wouldn't being the only out stand the out only outlier on this all of them have at least half the cost for recolored skins Compared to predecessor and overprime and overprime at least let's you buy those with in game currency So they get a slight pass not a full one because they're still they're still charging seven dollars for a skit for a recolor Yeah But at least they're trying to let me buy the recolor with in game currency just by playing the game They're letting me use my time as a resource to buy these these skins where predecessors not even doing that They're just charging me the six bucks and saying yeah, I hope you like it and that's wild Yeah Yeah, it's a it's just kind of a weird thing because like they're not skins are part of the game People enjoy having skins like nobody has to buy these skins. They're like nobody is Fort you can't these skins don't give you an advantage in the game You're not being forced to buy these skins to be competitive It just kind of sucks because like I said a lot of us have already bought a lot of these skins for the exact Same price years and years ago They got all this investment money. They had a paid early access. They got these assets for free like Let that trickle down a little bit. Let us have some free shit every now and then, you know, too Like we've been support of the game like I don't know man. It just I Don't like their pricing. They can do whatever the hell they want to with their pricing. I don't care but this just We complained about it when when overprime had that just crazy predatory pricing at first and and overprime changed it I think we should complain about this right now and hope hopefully a beta will see their error of their ways and change it themselves Because this is definitely a bit egregious and I don't care for it at all Yep So let's uh Move away from the skins and talk about the fangtooth changes. So the way fangtooth used to work You know, the first one gives you the river buff Extended duration second one gives you out of combat movement speed third one would give you a percentage of your um of your stats Increase and then it would just keep compounding after that every time to thank tooth You would get even more of a percentage of your stats increased and it just would cause the game to snowball all the hell They change that so now You know the it still gives the same stuff the first three but after that after the first three are taken It turns into the primal fangtooth which is much more difficult to take and I think it's really changed the game a Lot for the better. Um, yeah, the game the gameplay loop has improved tremendously from these fangtooth changes Yeah, 100% agree fangtooth is now an objective I think I've seen more players start caring about for one thing because the before it did changes felt so negligible Until you had four five and six that then by the time the enemy team got four five and six It was too late for you to realize and come back from and it's also snowballed the game in a unhealthy way I think with the way that fangtooth was set up previously But now I've seen way more games go to the 30 40 50 minute mark because a these fangtooth fangtooth aren't Snowballing as hard and b there's just more Feeling like I can come back all I needed to get the next fangtooth And I have a decent or the primal fangtooth next primal fangtooth And my team has a chance to come back into this and I think that's been super super effective Yeah, another big change that has come along with this at one point in time in pred like if you were after 30 minutes Anybody on your team could go solo fangtooth and take it real quick. Like you didn't have now You're gonna need help. I mean maybe some junglers like chimeric and still solo it and stuff But you know, that's kind of his deal. You don't have fagal on Off on our own and soloing fangtooth real quick. Like that primal fangtooth hurts and it's tanky and uh, I'd really like it Yep I agree with the the the fact that you can't solo it is probably my favorite thing You need the whole team there I mean, maybe there's a few champions that if they're fed enough they can probably, you know solo duo it But for the most part because of how important it is I feel like it's it's a team Commitment and and for that like I said when I normally play solo lane I'm not really all that worried about what's happening on the other side of the map because it takes me too Long to get over there It messes with my back timings and stuff like that and in the end of having you losing a turret And maybe not even still getting the fangtooth anyway, so it's like a big issue for solo lane But now it's like with the you know, hey, we got a fight for this It's their prime buff we need to give or not. I'm sorry the primal buff We need to get make sure they don't get it I think the only thing is and again, maybe I'm still not understanding it And then this is my issue and if I'm maybe not understanding then other you know people and similar mental capacities are Is it's three for each team and then the fourth one is a primal. No Okay, so is it two after three no matter who takes them after three is always primal Okay, so that's what I thought it was initially and then I got confused Okay, so that makes a lot more sense than it so it's three regardless of who captured the first three It could be two and one one and two whatever Fourth three, you know, but who if the fourth one is primal no matter what You just don't get the if you didn't get the first three, you don't have the base stats that goes along with them Right, you get them when you take primal, but yes Yeah, so only during the for the buff ratio, you don't get the passives that When you take primal you get the passive the first second or third depending on where your team is at And you get the temporary buff from primal So if what if the enemy team takes the first one they get that they get the buff They take the second one. They still get the same buff take the third one. They get that stat buff Now if you take primal, you know, they have three you have zero primal spawn you take primal You now get that river buff duration along with the primal buff And then the next time you take primal it works that way Okay, see if you're picking up what i'm laying down I I think I am at least I hope I am but yeah, I think that's the the only issue I have with it is also the visuals. It's really difficult still to tell what Primal or what which one is what like, you know, like really? I think so like when you run in there like I don't immediately know like oh, this is the Second buffer. This is the third buffer. Whatever. I maybe oh, okay I got you there or passive based on the number on the top left or right depending on which team you're on Right the passive has nothing to do with the look of the Yeah, I kind of I and that makes sense considering that they don't have it the same way that I guess I'm just familiar with like the way I think of like league where you have the different and now with overprime Where each one has its own visuals and in abilities attached to it. I personally like that in But you think both people have a different looking factor. No, I know and that would be weird, right? That's why I'm saying it's like I think it's just confusing from that perspective for me Maybe other people I I speak for the the uber casuals. Okay Maybe okay, not you sweaty like read all the fucking bug fixes people, you know what I mean or want I don't you know item change and see you know what 0.5 percent Damage increase you got on your favorite item or whatever. I'm not that guy. I'm on face value guy, you know what I mean? um I think we're let let's move on from the primal I completely forgot about this that we were talking just now It was a bit of a stealth change that a lot of people absolutely hate and for once I'm like Whatever like I've been different to it. They removed the um the kill counters at the top of the screen That wasn't in that wasn't in the patch notes at all. It was just all of a sudden gone I didn't notice it for several games because I just never look at that shit But apparently they did it so that they could decrease the numbers of surrenders and matches So that people can't just look up real quick and see how far their their their team is behind but um I personally this is one of the ones that I just don't give a shit about I don't care I don't mind at all. I think I would have liked to have seen it in the patch notes If they were going to make such a major change to the game. That's my only complaint about it Otherwise, I don't fucking care. What do you guys think about this? So I've got multiple schools on this is one grab a beer in the patch notes shadow changes are done Um two they have so many accessibility options In the game that why like the health bars of minions can be over here or not visible or fully visible all the time Why wouldn't you make it one of those options that I can turn it on or off? Right why just remove it outright like that feels like such a weird change to me um and in general I would care less if their tab menu wasn't so in my face and to find the total kills Was just wild and I know that that's coming that's a part of a HUD rework That's probably going to be in season two. It sounds like but still like the the Only place for me to get that info now is on the full screen Scoreboard that takes no like that's wild. Give me why don't you why didn't you make it accessible via toggle option? Why didn't you do something else and why didn't you tell us about it? Why did it take the community to realize this? That's just all that's just wild I understand like i'm reading chat right now and I agree with some of like the maybe devil's advocacy of uh That you know because it's not there people might not notice that they're behind and blah blah blah and that's fair I guess I don't know if it's really changed a lot of how many ffs are coming through um, you know because you could make the argument that the fang tooth changes are also making people have f less but Uh, I still I feel like we have decent amount of ffs regardless. Um, I to me The the shadow changes is an atrocity in my opinion In fact, you remove something without telling your player base, you know your thought process as to why that's the whole thing We're sitting here guessing as to why we're making assumptions as to why they removed it We don't know why they removed it but the for me It was just a quick easy way to tell where we were in the game state like We're down 10 kills. We probably shouldn't be trying to fight over fang tooth too right now We should be farming up gold and taking advantage of the fact that they're all off the map and get a push going Or and punish them by maybe getting a tower or two or something else on the map rather than you know Send going into a 10k gold deficit fight because they're up by the mountain So having that as quick information and yes the tab menu is so fucking garbage I hate looking on there to try and figure out like okay. Who's at what power spy You know what strengths they might be because you get to read through a fucking essay Basically, it looks like to get any real information from it. It's a it's a it's the worst Worst thing takes up the whole fucking screen doesn't even give you a better visual of the map Which would be nice at least if it's going to take up my whole fucking screen. I can at least see the map better No, it doesn't do any of that shit pisses me off Yeah, we've been complaining about their ui for a I know a long time now Complain again But yeah, the removing of the kills like I can see again The devil's advocacy aspect of it that it maybe makes it People aren't paying as much attention to the fact that they're super far behind So therefore they're not ffing because they feel like they're just as strong in their lane is normal I don't know but I just the shadow aspect I flip side that I've noticed to that specifically though Is yes teams that are behind are not noticing that they're that far behind But I've also seen teams that are 25 kills ahead are not pushing that advantage And it's like well, what are we doing? We're 25 kills up go for the objective go for the towers The enemy team cannot contest us realistically on this stuff, right? And It's the same problem just in reverse because of that scoreboard change I was giggling about that too and I can't read Put it on your accessibility options like you have everything else like why was that just a full removal? I don't know man. Yeah, it's stupid. That's a little weird little bit of a weird change, but Yeah, a lot of people upset about it. Let's see what works out. I the surrender thing that works out for him cotton Both move cotton. Let's see how that works out. Um I don't know. It's The surrenders. I'm still getting a lot of surrenders in both games. I I don't I I think it's a paragon thing like I think people remember All the times they won in paragon. They don't remember any of the times they lost I think most people had about maybe a 56% win rate in paragon They just don't remember that You know 50 40 that they lost they they remember that there were gods They think they're going to be gods in this game that they're going to win every single match And it doesn't happen and they get pissed. I don't know what the fuck it is just We had it's a problem game this week where we lost three in hybs 55 minute game that we came back from because we won what we held out one one team fight and pushed it into the game Right, like yes, I understand that there's a there's a exhaustion that's two longer games like that But stick it out play the game, right? And if if you're you're the person doing decently And yes, your team is struggling Let them play it out because maybe they'll figure it out. So in the next game, they're not feeding for you again Right, like do don't just get them into the cycle where they don't learn anything because you surrender so fast That'd never have a chance to It's my team that's trying to surrender. So reaper don't don't don't even play don't even play All right, um, you guys ready to move on for predecessor move on to a little bit over prime Durthing you guys got anything else you wanted to say before we move on not that immediately comes to mind Now good patch overall again. Yeah, great patch going when we read the patch notes. We thought that it was going to be good Uh, it proved to be good Again, I think that they've continued each patch to make the game better Which is what we had hoped for with how bare it was at the beginning So if they keep this up, I mean, we're gonna have a really solid game on our hands at some point But good patch All right, I'm gonna move on to over prime. Uh, we actually don't have a lot to talk about with over prime Did I not cut this correctly? Yeah, I guess not but anyway But anyway, well over prime is uh introducing crunch uh Earlier later on this week. Um, I think yeah Tuesday. There we go Um, more than likely if they follow suit with what they have been doing those patch notes will come out later tonight So be on the lookout on their discord if you want to see the patch notes. We haven't seen them yet Um, hopefully we get some uh, different changes now Uh, Jen, I noticed one thing during this crunch Uh video is that one point he has like an electric storm that bursts around him That's about the only everything else looks the same old crunch That was the only kind of new thing if we don't know if that's a new crunch ability or if that's a new item Personally me I want to see new items. I would much rather see just a host post of new items Both games need more items over prime in particular I think needs far more items than they have right now So, um, I'm excited to see it I'm excited to see crunch into the game in the game But uh, I would be I think I would I'm looking forward to more items more than I would be looking forward to crunch at this Point because they they've been iterating they have plenty of heroes in their game But anyway, I just said a whole bunch because I got a piece. So now you guys gotta look at the slack I'm like mixed emotions about them adding crunch the video that they showed he looks amazing like his animations look sick The the vfx that are coming through with it look awesome Um, you know everything that we've kind of come to expect from over prime at this point I'm so nervous about his kit like I'm so nervous about how because it seems like crunch is like that that that champion That is either dog shit or again broken beyond all measure and it's really hard based off of Like how they had him in paragon and now in uh in in pred like, you know, the healing on uh, you know When he gets they passively through his ultimate and all that's it just I hate that's stupid. I hate fucking predecessors Crunch I can't stand him I get that he's a decently high skilled champion like to to get all of his combos down and really be super effective with him Right, you know, you don't just roll your face across the keyboard Um, you do have to kind of know what you're doing and and play with your cooldowns appropriately, but man If I'm really nervous, that's all I gotta say, but it was the same thing we thought about with wukong We're like, oh man, we're so worried or nervous about what could be wukong and wukong was a dud I don't think that crunch is going to be a dud. I think crunch is going to be a bruiser that is going to Hard hard shift to the meta In my opinion, so it'll be interesting. What were your thoughts on watching that? I don't think he's he's going to hard shift the meta I think he's going to be a good addition to over prime in that he's going to be a very high High skill high reward character. That's what he was back in paragon He's the riven equivalent from league of legends, right that new players will play crunch like absolute dog shit They're just not going to figure out how his combos work. They don't know how to use his his ability Um, and that's just not how he plays but those that figure it out are rewarded for figuring it out But he still has downsides, right the crunch crunch and predecessor His downsides are so fewer than than actual paragon crunch It's wild because he's able to regen his own health Right part of the thing with crunch is you could just whittle him down in lane Wait for him and then if he goes in on you He's full engaged if he has to use Uh, right crunch and re crunch right there is no getting out anymore But with the blink and predecessor and with his healing He's it has a lot more safety to what he's trying to do whereas in over prime I don't think he's going to have that level of safety barring. They add a heal to his kit Which please god don't add a heal to his kit. That doesn't make any sense I'm looking forward to the names of his abilities because they rename all the abilities In over prime and some of them are fucking hilarious Like how much there's our 2000 rocket is super powerful missile or if he's going to have super powerful punch That's going to be one of his He does look huge guys. I agree and I would yes the other guy A jedi was big upset leaning against crunch the other day. I was big upset. I'm big upset every time We see crunch and bread. I fucking hate crunch and bread. It was soon as Pred adds a ban And my ban is always going on crunch. Fuck that champion Yeah, that's a big angry But no, he does look massive though in this one Did he did he like because he was bigger than severon in that fight All right, crunch has always been a robot. He's always been big. He was big He was one of the larger models and He's one of the larger models in paragon. Even soul reapers like crunch looks bigger than mini prime I think I he looks dude. He looks huge. I mean, we obviously don't have it on loop going right now, but Nestle crunch Yes, please No, we don't we don't give nestle any uh any additional exposure. Fun fact Give me a nestle crunch and you'll see the most hyper motherfucker on the earth. I don't know why Interesting. But anyway, you know good to know nest. I will say this nestle crunch s'mores Top tier that does sound good. It's so good But uh, yeah, I don't know it's kind of funny that he's getting introduced along like along with eggy Because I think eggy's got a counter of the dog shit out of crunch the thing I think eggy needs to be his ultimate needs to be tuned down or something the Either the the cooldown increased or something is unstoppable. He does Just It's wild some of the things you can do mid to late game with eggy Yeah, so like Any kind of melee hero that tries to engage on eggy while he has his ultimate is going to die I think he has more than one turret up Because if he has two turrets up and then he's going to throw another one down while he's ulting and that's going to be Ulting as well. You're just fucked. You're just fucked any right clicks and slows you. Yeah And what are you gonna do about it nada nada we're gonna do Yeah, so I don't know. I'll uh We'll see how it works out crunch coming into to eggy, but uh It should be fun What you were saying mangers is I hope that that electric field Is an item for one thing. I don't think it is. I think it's going to be on crunch, right? But I hope it is an item But like you said, we just need more items the item diversity in over prime is awful And you see the same items on the same character is every single game because those are just It's almost min maxi at this point, right? Those are just the best items Period like there is no like skill expression most in most case scenarios Your first three items are gonna be your first three items because those are the best first three items Like that's plain and simple what it is and that feels terrible They they introduced that that the patch that made it to where you could build your own item sets I have still not built my own item set for anybody because I know if I'm mage I'm going which issues and two spirits to your drop into raging to you know And like if I am if I'm this that I'm going the vamp sword into zemia's toy Like you know exactly what you're going to do. I don't need a preload out to tell me how to build people. I know, you know The love of god change Uh fanatics dessert Please please god. Oh god. Yeah, I'm making a video about that soon. I can please fuck that item I don't mind giving carries a shield right necessarily, but make it something that the stats are not Everything that a carry wants and a shield like it's wild how you get the best of both worlds as a first item on carries I I think it to me and it's the the fact that it's a Life-saving shield. I that's what I don't like because then they can't be burst down Yeah, and so and the cooldown on it is not that high it comes back off of cooldown pretty quickly So it's it's basically every big team fight you're gonna have a backup and you can't just you can't just zero out a An 80 carry easily what I would like is something more like a bloodthirster Something where the shield is already on your champion as like an overheal based off of you You know auto attacking stuff and so you have to burst through the shield initially Not at the end if we're going to make any kind of changes because that that yeah And a lot of people are building it regardless of whether or not that's an ideal item for them because of that life-saving ability It's so strong If you can somehow utilize it in any way you should build it like it's every time I see that shield pop my heart breaks Yeah, because I'm just like and congratulations that get away like Especially when I'm playing like calari count as any of those If I'm if I'm you like using my ultimate and I see that shield pop I know that I'm screwed because I at this point I've blown everything I have And they're just gonna be able to walk away with me hoping that I could basically attack them down after the fact Or they just outright kill you because you don't have anything that they can do to you They just life steal up. Yeah, they just they life steal and auto attack you to death and you're just fucking dead Yeah, no, it's it's garbage Yeah, uh, but yeah good news crunch Let's let's look for those uh passionates tonight and then that that'd be cool I'm going to switch over now to ethereal. Do you guys have any final thoughts on? um Overprime boring move on Um, I'm just gonna keep saying the same thing that I've been saying about overprime is one This is going to be a big one for me Is that I've actually had more fun on predecessor than I've been having on overprime? A big part of that is because I think after 20 minutes overprime sucks balls And um, the other thing is is I'm just getting bored with the same Yeah, the items are the same even though adding an icky who's my favorite old school paragon champion And they did a decent job of adding him in He's not so fun to play that I'm like, I need to be just non-stop grinding on overprime The other thing and this is the more for me, but anybody else who's on the west coast West coast service are fucking dead. It's just it's impossible pretty much to get games So I'm having to play on 100 plus ping To be able to get games and I'm there's zero chance. I'm playing on 120 140 ping and ranked Which would be the only thing that I would say is saving me is because I can grind it and try and get to Another higher tier or something like that which I'm just not interested in doing because quick play is garbage It's just the the matchmaking is so off. It's it's just I don't know. I'm not enjoying it But I'm not enjoying either game enough to really want to put it and that's why we've been playing other stuff I've just been looking for other games to play I'm I I put this in either our group chat or in ftm chat I don't remember but I feel like I'm gonna be a patch Andy for a little while Or I'm only gonna play the game after a major patch See how it feels and unless it's like groundbreaking I'm probably gonna go back to finding another game to play. I haven't been playing uh hogwarts legacy great game You know, I don't know Maybe I'm weird 20 minutes sucks in overprime. It has for a long time right The basically the only time it didn't suck in overprime was when you could take the uh prime guardian It's at eight minutes back in cbt2 and end the game at 10 minutes because you never got to 20 minutes For the game to feel terrible, right? Like it just That's the only time it didn't feel bad was because you got 10 minute games and that was it right like Every other time death timers have always been too too low The game has stalled out past 20 minutes minions don't build up on anything like it just it falls apart after 20 minutes And it sucks to see that yep Well, let's move on now because I got it up and running. Um, I need to make sure Well, a thorough Yeah, if you guys felt the same way about the about the Paras zombies are you guys just grinding it out and don't care? Or are you guys feeling the same way that you just kind of burnt out on I'm curious While we talk about ethereal, but I'm just curious if anybody else is feeling that same way So for for ethereal, uh, jelly We've got some kalea gameplay kalea being one of the very first myths we were ever ever introduced to For um for for ethereal, albeit she had much less clothing back then but uh So, uh, I gotta make sure I'm not sure if the audio was playing on this or not. I hope not But um jelly, what can you tell us about kalea and her abilities? First off, I don't hear the audio quickly listening to it, but um, Dude kalea is so much fun. It's wild. Like she's just insane So we've seen it already a couple times and it's about to be shown a lot more is that her Right click her special ability, which if you guys don't know in ethereal is a ability with a good pro and a con that goes with it But whenever you use that ability, there's some negative effect is the the What the chatting Yeah, I couldn't hear it at all Oh, I'm you I muted it. So it should be fine now okay, um But so yeah special abilities are pro con abilities when you use the ability. There's a negative effect applied uh either to you around you something among those lines, right and This ability is basically she gets a short range dash in a target direction She's able to move to the side move forward move backward whatever it is But she uh the mana cost increases Exponentially every time she uses the ability. Okay, so when she does it 10 times in a row. She's using all of her mana and there's a brief cooldown in between uses, right? But she's using all of her mana to do that right like it. So it's Absolutely so much fun to use but it's definitely one of those abilities You have to play around carefully because if you use it too much It could quickly go downhill and how much mana you're burning and you have to go back to base to restock um So yeah, absolutely amazing. She's got her q which is a long range kind of explosive that she pushes out Does damage to targets it's passing through Explodes out at the very end dealing damage in an aoe Her e is basically the little mines that she puts out in a line on the ground That if you walk over them you take damage Um, and there's a secondary effect to that that I won't get into right now because it's kind of cool And there's a lot to play around with it Her basic attack of course is just her basic attack Her r is a pillar of magic damage that splashes up at a target area that does um damage in an aoe And then her ultimate is what we saw in the new year's video She jumps up into the air charges up like a spirit bomb looking thing What was it on down to a target area and the longer she holds it the longer range she gets on it. So that's Super fun before we've seen all she gains her other tails whenever she does her ultimate too. Yeah Yeah, but she's supposed to be a nine-tailed fox, but she only has one Whatever she does her ultimate She gets to moderate tails Yeah, one of the tiktoks that we put out About a month ago was her in fire lane using her ultimate and getting a double or triple kill using that It's actually part of this gameplay. This is where that tiktok came from. Um So that's in this gameplay. This gameplay is live on our youtube right now. So you guys can go watch the full thing It's about 25 minutes or so Uh, but the really cool thing come back Uh my backup there we go my bad This guy All right. Yeah, there we go. Nothing else went down except for discord. That's weird The stream went down for a couple seconds. Oh did it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah stream went down. Yeah, it was it but we're We're back. So all right cool. What chat what where did where did jelly leave off for you guys? I mean all in all it was talking about her passive He was talking about her passive when it cut out for me Whenever she fully levels an ability it upgrades in some way Okay, so like all of her ability She upgrades as a whole in some way as well. Okay, so it's it's just so much fun. Like it's just wild to play as her It's just so much fun. Like it's just wild to play as her She's super fun super quick on her feet. She's an archmage so that she has the Uh class ability of placing two two sigils down on the ground And then is able to teleport from one to the other and then it goes on cooldown. Uh, she's just Absolutely insane Well, um, oof there goes the ultimate. This is the first time I've seen this. Um, I've seen this gameplay Uh, she looks really good. She looks like a lot of fun Looks like I'm going to enjoy her quite a bit passive sounds a lot like, uh bellica From pred. So I'll be used to that to some degree and um Yeah, and she is wearing a skin in this video. This is like her summer wearing the summer bash khalia skin. Okay, there you go So this is the skin that you're looking at right now. Um, just really I really Really love, uh, noxus already. Um, the the mages and I mean all the heroes in ethereal are really cool Um, you know chats are I saying, you know, she didn't gameplay looks a little bit stiff Yeah, the animations are still a little stiff Yep, so they still have a ways to go, but I think everything looks really good Map is beautiful. The ability effects are really good. Everything's improving. It's been improving dramatically Especially since the very first time I got my hands on ethereal everything has improved So freaking much and that um, it's good to see a lot of new heroes getting added in just, uh We just need to get our hands on it again. We need that play test Yep, absolutely. It's coming. I promise you it's coming man goose Trust me. I I talk to the team all the time about like, okay guys, when when can I say the thing? Like, let me know um But I mean, uh, so I want to address messed up perfects question from earlier does this the mana scale forever on kalia's right click or does it eventually go back down? There is a cooldown period where if you don't use the ability for a certain amount of time Then the mana resets down to normal So it will go back to the normal cast and then just increase from there It's just quick succession use that we're trying to that has the con attached to it It's uh, it's similar to like uh cast it in ultimate. It sounds like to me cast it in from legal legends. Very simple. Yep. Yep I mean to me the biggest, uh, buff that she has is the fact that she's a cat girl. Um, so She's not a cat girl. She's a fox girl. Yeah. Uh, okay. She's katsune. Sorry. Sorry Yeah, fox girl Yeah, I'm I'm still remembering like when her and malaya were shown first and both of them were basically in bikinis Yeah, which fit malaya didn't really fit kalia. I was like, uh, that's a little skeezy. Uh, if it's No, sir If it yeah, she looks like a lot of fun. Looking forward to playing her Oh, yeah, no, it's she's super fun And lots of changes since the last test, right? Like the people have been talking about the map, right? The map is completely different from the last test Right. So that's a huge change. Plus we've got the new characters new myths um, and just Across the board lots and lots of changed getting ganked in this one. That was a greedy back anyway Oh, there's a little bridge right there. Yeah. Yeah, there's a little bridge up to the uh log that goes up Yep, never noticed that Y'all gotta take a much closer look to look at this video Yeah, yeah, they added like a little Post and like a fence going up to the yeah I mentioned that before that I was really it feels like it needs something to make it a little bit I don't know because it looked almost too out of place where it was before so now that's I dig that Little more indicative of what you could do base looks so good dude. Look at the base, man Guys, I think a lot of this too for those of you who haven't been following a theory for as long as we have Like these changes are so massive. Like if you took I think at some point you need to do like a big side by side again Of like this is where we were like two years ago This is where we are now and like so how we can people can really understand like How much the the game has changed and evolved because like it's it's pretty insane Yeah, we did that just for the last year for the the first of the year video that we released Even in the last two years the game has basically evolved A hundred times over itself like it's just absolutely insane where it's come from from where it's been Yeah, it's great Looks good. I still think uh, uh, you know void lane needs to be more voidy. Um, you know We're changing the name to regular lane Ice fire in regular Okay, I'm going regular lane. I just saw the mines that she laid down. I like that Vanilla lane, please. I want to go vanilla lane All right, um, you guys done with the theory or you're ready to move on to the questions for the night Uh, uh, kaneki has the watch for you. Uh, when is the estimated release date of a three? Oh, yes Guys, I wish they they they won't tell they won't tell us. No 30 sons of bitches Anyone who's paying attention that ethereal is still very much in development. Like it's got it's probably got a while to go You can make your ascertainations from there Make it earth lane earth lanes Oh, oh, oh, really trying to get the release date from me there. When isn't the release date? Oh, oh, oh, oh, really trying to get the release date from me there. When isn't the release date? I like that I like that it isn't today All right, well, let's talk about um Uh, some of the questions that we got for in the ftm chat You guys get to the ftm discord And uh, post your questions there if you want the first one. I really like this one Emma Kira asks Why do people seem to think that balancing for fun and balancing for the pro scene are mutually Exclusive, I think there's a really good question because I think you can balance Things for a casual community while still balancing them for the pro scene. You don't have to do one And not the other I'm gonna take first stab at it and it's because of dev time I think that's the biggest thing you have to have two I would say you almost have to have two teams working on that Brighton for these games, right? We have like examples of like maybe smite in league of legends and some of the other You know bigger mobas that can have you know Multiple styles going on because you have a plethora of players that can fit in each of the niches right now The casual versus ranked it's really hard to definitively say we have this large of a casual base and this amount of a ranked base And we can adjust these items or these champions to you know, nerf the the you know high end ranked guys But still allow the casual guys to still have fun with said champion Because you just have to split the dev time so much to be able to really fine tune and understand The data that you're collecting to be able to do that. So I think right now You have to choose one. Are you balancing for fun? Are you balancing for the pro scene? More than likely given that they're competitive games even as a casual. They're still considered competitive games You're going to be trying to make the game as competitive as possible and therefore I think probably skewing towards the higher echelon of players Do I think that's necessarily the right way to go about it? I don't know It's kind of hard to say I I wish that more games were balanced around the casual The problem then becomes that if you get a guy Like soul reaper comes into your game who really knows the ins and outs of every single champion and and especially like his favorite champions And it's balanced around the easiest person to or the like, you know, the dumb dumb like me to come in and play it He's going to just make that that champion look absolutely broken out of its mind And it's not going to be fun playing against a guy like soul reaper. So it's Probably better in health wise in my opinion to balance around the higher echelon people And then it just trickles down to the casuals that you just get good enough And eventually you'll also be able to do maybe some of the things that a guy like soul reaper can do That's my fifth take on it. Did I read the question appropriately? Did I get that? I think so I see what you're saying. I think it's fine to have like noob stomp heroes And I think it's fine to have heroes that take a little bit more nuance to play But you're rewarded for that nuance with a Just being a little bit better maybe than than than other heroes I think that's always fine in any game And I think uh devs take I saw this with fault a lot They would take kitty gloves when they would like talk about their casual audience Like the casual audience understands like they know they get what's going on They just don't have the practice enough to master things the way the competitive players have so When you're looking at buffs and nerfs and stuff like that don't nerf something because people in casual don't Can't use it well yet because eventually they will be able to use it well Right or buff and nerf whatever whatever the hell I was saying I think a good example What what the where the problem comes in is when you have a hero that's stupid easy to play and also stupid effective where the the rewards do heavily outweigh The amount of time and effort that you put into that hero Like a good example of that would be gadget in the final beta test for Overprime like not gadget now, but gadget back then where it hurt Mine would deal so much damage. It was it was pretty much lock on you just as long as you got it somewhere in the area It was instant like gadget required very little effort to play Extremely well now you have people Um in in overprime that can play gadget extremely well and do really really well with her But it's it requires a lot more effort and I think that's the that's the balance You got to strike if you're going to have a hero that is just you know, maybe a smidge better than the other heroes Then they got to require a little more effort to be effective Yeah Xavier in the chat also mentioned exactly what I was going to bring up is chimera always had that problem Right of being a character that is really easy to pick up because he's really forgiving with his health regen But he also which was a menace in a lot of cases in paragon, right and even now in Predecessor, he's that way as well the his ease of access is very easy And his output is very easy And so with the two things he can turn into a stomp character a lot of the time And I think that finding that balance is more important than finding the balance between fun and pro Right the the that those I don't think they're mutually exclusive, right? You can balance the game to for the pro scene or you can balance the game for more fun Right, or you can try to do your best to do both, right? It doesn't have to be One way or the other I think the complication comes from characters like chimera though in that the second you add in a character that Is really easy to pick up and really effective Then it feels like it's not fun Because he's balanced at the higher levels of play because he people know how to shut him down more effectively But at the lower levels, he's just an absolute menace, right? So it feels like you're balancing for the pro scene instead of for the fun scene And they you have to be more careful with how that balance interacts with it with each other Uh, can you keep the eye patch brings up a really good comment here? Um That should balance should nerf a hero based on their win rate Other than nerfing them because some people said that the hero is broken There is some merit to that like a lot of times that hero feels broken They actually aren't that broken if you like the the the developers have access to a lot more information than we do They know the real win rate. They know You know the win rate amongst the various elos What was picked on that they know a lot more than we do whenever they go to these nerfs So sometimes stuff doesn't make sense to us Uh, when it probably makes perfect sense to them But that that's one thing you got to take into account whenever you're doing this stuff and like uh Again, I'm going to bring up over time as a as a as a prime example is Mid lane wraith could absolutely dominate and be very oppressive to go against if you don't know what you're doing However Mid lane wraith is not a good mid laner. Um, the wraith does not need a nerf People will scream up and down the wraith needs a nerf at over prime Not a great hero Not a great hero just very oppressive at lower levels of gameplay very similar to how he was in paragon Yeah, I mean, I it's a very nuanced question obviously and I do think it's a good one Um, but it is hard to because the the keyword right mutually exclusive I don't know if they're mutually exclusive necessarily but In taking in just like, you know win rate and win percentage is not always the thing that they're looking at Like it's playthrough. How often are they being played and like at what levels like mingus was mentioning There's so many things that go into figuring out a balance like, you know If a champion's only played three times, but it won all three times. It's a hundred percent win rate You're not going to nerf that guy just because he's only got paid played three times You know what I mean? So those types of things and I do think that Feeling has a big play because when you think about especially from the casual player base So your casuals are going to be your new players and the players that are, you know Play maybe consistently, but aren't as good as some of the more hardcore players or higher ranked players If you don't have a good experience for them, right? So if we use chimera and pred as an example Most of the time in solo queue You're not able to Coordinate the same way that you would in higher Elos where you're grouping up with people or you just have a better understanding of how every champion works and who counters What and like what benefits when you're in the lower and having those low elos stomps I think that's actually worse for the game. I think it makes it worse for your game because you're going to be You know making the experience for those new players Worse or those casual players worse and that's the largest part of your player base in every single game The casual players are the largest part of your game of your player base It's not the the guys at the top 10 or they're making the weekly 100 in pred or whatever you want to call it It's not those guys. Yeah, they might be playing more hours as individuals But if you look at the casuals, that's the bulk of who's playing your game So I think understanding and playing around those those guys is is really important for A dev team and unfortunately it takes a lot more energy and effort to balance around that many people Because of all the things that we just discussed. It's really really hard to Finite pinpoint exactly what it is But I think chimera is a perfect example that guy's fucking Insanely strong In a solo queue environment because he's so hard to shut down Wards aren't as consistent in pred. Like, you know what I mean? Like there's so many avenues He's he's just he's a really strong champion. He's just And very forgiving so you can be really good on him has a really good player But even if you're a new player, you can probably still be really good on him So it's like a double-edged sword. Uh, whereas like calari maybe, you know, we make the argument about her Higher elos. She might not be as strong because people understand how to ward her out better They know how to play around her cooldowns a little bit better and stuff like that. It's I don't know. It's tough I think he's better. He's better implemented in pred than he ever was in paragon I think he's better implemented in pred than he is in over prime as well And that's why he's not really played in he's still the the silver elo noob sump champion that he always was in over prime Whereas in pred you can see him at all levels of play That's because there is an evolution to your skill as chimera You have the people that don't know that you can just escape things with your e and they just never use it That's like your lowest tier and then you have the people that figure that out But they do it on the very first thing that hits them It's like if they get a slow they activate their e to escape that and then you have the the next level when people are getting way Way better with them. They know exactly what they know if the enemy team has a rampage Um, and they hit they get hit with a deckerball. They don't use their e to escape that deckerball They wait for that rampage to hit that sun afterwards use the e to escape that And then they re-engage like there's a there's a lot more new ones to predecessors chimera than chimera has ever really had before Hmm People are like you could play more agaches another one that obviously Can have those same kind of Horigash Well, and see I think this also goes to when we talk about like some of the issues that these devs are going to run into Is that these champions and their kits, especially if they stay close to what they were or not new anymore Right, like that's the same thing with like league of legends Like when you think of like, you know, some of the champions that have been around since to begin Master Yi, for example Master Yi is a tear in low elos and in uncoordinated play because his kit is just designed to be hyperscaling crazy strong In those in in the hands of somebody who knows how to navigate him and and people don't know how to navigate against him It's you know over time people are just going to learn those things and so yeah when you think of like morgash you think of chimera you think of some of these more more like Snowbolly champions and like we have history with them You know, especially people who've been paying attention and played it really since the beginning Stages of paragon all the way through when it closed You're gonna have a really good understanding of how these champions work And so they come back in the game and they're still kind of the same way It's like all of those old feelings are still there all of those like, you know Biases and concerns are all still there right people talking about morgash It's like well did fault bring back old morgash or was this a different morgash? I don't know. It's hard to tell. You know, so it's like, you know, Iggy and scores Should we fit now got three different versions of him? You know, we had Paragon's faults and now overprimes. We had two versions of Paragon I don't know it does add for an interesting conversation though about like, you know, how should we be Buffing these or nerfing these champions that have been out for you know a decade almost Let's move on to another question. This was coming from crimson rage What are your thoughts on implementing passive map changing mechanics into either game? For example, harvesters in the amber link from og Paragon days, which I think was more of a Economy management change than a map change. But anyway, more like the blast cones and healing fruits and legal legends How could you implement these into each game and which game would benefit the most from such a feature? For example, players choose an affinity at the start of the game and harvesters grant xp to upgrade said affinity Every couple of minutes above spawns randomly on the river path from left to right lane Which will grant an aoe heal to the team which claims it. Um, I think this these are all cool Ideas that I think could be added into the games I think if anybody adds anything in like this into their game, it would be solely with overprime. They send the um be a little Uh, I don't know they're not as afraid to just completely change Things just turn turn everything on his head Like with the With putting portals into the game and completely removing a tower like they they're not afraid to make some pretty big changes um Or to or to go back and revert to some of the old changes that people like like sprint mode So I think if we do see harvesters in amber link type things like we saw in paragon I think we would probably more than likely see them in overprime. I don't know if it would be good or not Um head assessor. Love of god, please don't put harvesters back into You didn't like harvesters need more legacy paragon than I played any other type of paragon And that's including the harvesters and those things made the game so much worse It's wild because you your rotation times as a jungler became just a completely static thing That it did not matter because those things were so effective in giving your team The xp and gold and cp that you needed um part points That it became on rotation. It's like oh my harvesters going to be full in 10 seconds I better book my ass over there to get that harvester right because it was it almost became worse If you didn't or worse if you didn't get the harvester and chose the gank instead Don't do that don't add that kind of mechanic into your game because it just made the jungle awful Like it just felt so bad. What about the amber link? It's similar. I mean like it's like nobody nobody had to actively drain the amber link It just drained on its own, but you could invade the enemy jungler and take their gold out of the amber link Yeah, I think there's an aspect that that creates Tension on the map which is important But I think neither game has shown that they want that kind of tension on the map Overprime used to have that tension with prime dunk and removed it and predecessor doesn't have any kind of Tension around the map aside from the objectives the main objectives either and I think that's You are playing a dangerous game when you provide provide more areas of pure tension on the map Right like the fruits that they mentioned from league of legends Those aren't really highly contentious points on the map. Are they useful when you're there using them? Absolutely, but nobody's going over there like no my honey fruits like bashing each other in the face over the honey right like so It's you have to be careful when you add Aesthetic map changes that have gameplay implications versus pure spots of tension on your map Yeah, I think uh, it's a cool thought, but man, is it very difficult to implement Um, I think if we're going to steal anything from any of the games. I think uh, especially predecessor could benefit from league of legends Plants that give vision so you can knock the visions and the the plants in a certain way and it Provides like a sweep of vision out in a cone You can also then go and de-ward the wards that pop up as well spot champions and stuff like that I think something like that would be beneficial. I do think those types of changes blast cones Um, the honey fruits anything like that maybe is a little bit better because it's not anything that Like jelly was mentioning like contentious. You're not necessarily starting a fight over a blast cone But you might pop a blast cone to make it so the jungler can't use it to access a more difficult part of the map I think there could be something like in pred for example if you added a you know blast cone that would spawn eventually behind You know the over the pits or something like that so you could blast cone in and try and get an objective steal It's hard to balance around but I think it's possible So I think that those things are fun and interesting and good ways to shake up stuff I don't think either game needs it currently. I think both games need a lot more other stuff That the devs could be spending their time on then bring back prime dunk. I want prime dunk back I hate over prime move that I also really liked the prime dunk I like things where you you are kind of forcing action across different parts of the map Again, my main idea I think for pride especially is to give the give off lane Some way of being able to impact the other side of the lane a little bit easier with a teleport or something like that um But yeah the whole like anything that gives xp and gold. I think is risky It rewards people who really really know how to utilize it And it punishes people who don't and I think when you're still at the beginning stages of the game Like like we currently are and trying to build on a player base. I just think that would be toxic. I think it would be Yeah, there would be too many people who know how to utilize it and and break it Versus the amount of people that might not know how strong or not strong it is and therefore Give it away for free and I think that would be an issue if I would want to see anything taken from legal legends and put into Both predecessor and over prime, maybe even ethereal would be the blast cones Just a little more verticality to actually take take advantage of your vertical map structure being able to jump over certain Um walls and stuff like that. I think that would be a lot of fun That would be jump pads in the off lane give us a jump pad that sends me to mid lane or something like that I don't know. I think it's like not like into the lane, but like from lane to lane Dude, I just anything that gives yes, you're talking. I think it's true verticality You know give more Onus to the player to have impact on the map. I think right now I mean over prime you feel it like every time those portals come up when we're on it a portals are up Like it matters because you never know who's coming through that portal off lane could be going into dual lane support could be coming through To off lane and it matters and I think it makes the game more interesting and feel Impactful, um, you know, I'm glad they made it to our it's just one charge and it's on a two-minute Timer now because it was before do you remember we could take like the whole team basically Yeah a portal and show up at a fight That was so at first it didn't seem that big of a deal But now I'm thinking back on it. I'm like god. That was toxic Bad I mean the way they're set up now because provide some fun moments like you and I jedi had a pretty fun moment where I was uh You were on eggy. I was playing rocks. I think we were chasing accountants I forget who it was But they were very low I stung them which gave you enough time to take the portal before she could Which left her on the other side of that portal with a full health Fed grucks, which you know smashing her into the ground But there's also been plenty of times where I've escaped through that said portal There's also been plenty of times where I'm running for the portal not realizing that it's down And I've just given myself away and I'm like fuck this is you see the time It's all grayed out with a bunch of numbers. You're like Yeah There needs to be a channel time to take the portals. I think like a two three second channel time I disagree 100. That takes I think I think right now with the way it is It gives those exact moments where it's super fun. If you manage to outplay the guy who's trying to outplay you Uh, but yeah, you know different strokes are different folks. I don't think so I think with this pacing of how over prime works to having it be a channeled ability would would Slow things down in a weird way. They've your lynch agreed with me as soon as I was done saying that I saw that pop up So I'm right. You're wrong. Let's move on. Yeah fair I do think cross guns is a good idea though. I think there's ways to implement it to where it's not broken um League of legends. I mean, I know it's weird to continue to use them, but they're the number one MOBA they've been around for a really long time They've been innovating and changing and improving their game over time I don't think it's bad to look at them and say hey, we could borrow some of those ideas Hey, we could like innovate our game with stuff that that league has already put in the time and effort to and You know looking at pred man They're they're prime at being able to you know borrow other ip's and charge full price for them So, you know, you're doing just fine Uh glee linear I'll I'll get to your question after the uh next question that was put in the fdm chat But uh, do you think it would benefit both games if most physical damage characters have one or more abilities with high magical power scaling? Revenant similar to League of Legends, for example Could this also work the other way with some magical damage characters having one or more abilities to scale on physical damage And over prime most physical characters have abilities which do magical damage, but the scaling isn't enough make it viable to invest into Would it make balancing too difficult? Would it make it easier to shift made of builds and character? I think there's something to be said for having every hero having at least One ability that deals damage that isn't tied to their normal damage um However, I always thought it was really fun back in the original paragon days when you had energy damage heroes And physical damage heroes and you had to draft accordingly so that you didn't have just all physical or all energy damage on your team Because then the other team could just build all energy armor or all physical armor and just run rough shot over you but that was back in when like More knock basic attacks dealt energy damage. There was no a base basic and ability damage There was either energy damage Physical damage some abilities don't physical damage some abilities don't energy damage some basics dealt physical some basics dealt energy Um, so I don't know. I think I think it's a decent idea to have that But I think you should probably also have some that just go whole hog on either uh, basic basic attacks or ability damage Magical damage revenant and predecessor is the prime example of this right like he Revenant was so oppressive with the high magical scaling on his q That he was able to instantly delete pretty much anyone off the game By pressing q one time when he rebuilt full magic damage Right and so that I think is relatively unhealthy Because that's just too much right to put it but they've lowered it since and now there's actually Play in there where you can go full magic damage Revenant and say yes I am going to do most of my damage with my q and then nothing else Or you can go basic attack and do kind of a mixed damage Um from your abilities and your basic attacks and I think there's value in that It's just finding that balance is more difficult. I think for these for a lot of characters I think as you're showing your studio on Stream am I now I don't know. I'm just letting you know that it's there Oh, that's weird man. Yeah, big weird. Um, I I'm also I kind of echo a little bit of what jelly was saying I think that uh I think it's fine to have champions that are mixed damage But I do think that it makes the game better when you have champions that are more one than the other Um, I it's I think it becomes a balancing nightmare when you have mixed Like everybody having mixed damage because then the items have to be Around each champion and how much scaling they're getting and it just starts to become to me It would probably be a clusterfuck Um, and and I'm not a fan of you know of that personally I do kind of wish though that like for example mages like they're their auto attacks are based off of physical So are our physical attacks at least I think in both games, right? So I do think I wish that the mages Had some kind of scaling On their autos that was magic Oriented maybe so it scales over time. Um, and it could be a smaller percentage Obviously, you don't want to necessarily turn them into auto attack champions That's not really their identity But it does feel bad that they they always are going to revert to having to be I have to use my mana to wave clear. I have to use my mana to do this I have to do my use my mana to do that whereas As an ad carry or any other attack based, you know champion You just press left click and all of your stuff works And so I think it's it does feel a little bit sometimes bad that uh, You know the ap champions don't get any love in their autos and stuff like that because weaving in and out of autos is I think a powerful aspect Especially for champions that are very cooldown dependent Like what am I supposed to do as Gideon once I've used all my abilities? And I just stand there walking looking at you and pew pew pew, you know, it just it sucks Like you would I would it would be nice to feel like you're Scaling towards something with your autos as well. So that's how I would answer this question But I think having Commitment to that we're gonna have physical and you know ap Put into every kit would just be a cluster fuck for balancing because again every item would have to be looked at And how it impacts everybody and it wouldn't just be like hey, these are ad carry items Let's balance these around our ad carries and same thing when you're in a you know adding in a new carry Etc etc because like wraith for example an overprime was kind of in that weird space where it's like, okay Wait, do I build him an auto attack champion or do I build him ap champion? You know, that's okay. If it's a one-off It would be really bad if it's everybody in my opinion Gideon ad is the way to go. Okay Thanks, I saw somebody do that the other day We had that uh, what was that that the support uh, decker and op that went in full ad carry items And we're chunking everybody. Yeah, it's so annoying Uh, I want to hit before we close out. I want to hit uh, joy lineos question Even though this is a very in-depth question that let's try to give sort of short answers as we wrap it up Even though we could probably talk about this for another fucking three hours. Um The question is uh, what do you think op and pred can learn from each other which is doing what better than the other title I think just in short just off the top of my head just very very generally summing up I think over prime could learn from pred that they Could use a little bit of slowing down with the content to make the content better when it does release And I think pred can learn a little bit from op that you need a little bit more fucking content in your game For it to be fun. So you don't have mirror matches every goddamn So I think op needs to slow it down. I think pred needs to speed it up Yeah, yeah them meeting in the middle in that regard would be huge for both of them Um That's been it's been that way out the gate since forever I think for me, I'm gonna go with another One that we've talked about many times though is I think the early game in over prime is really solid In terms of the the feel and the fun and the pacing and all of that But the lay game is not the best and I think it's almost I wouldn't say completely the inverse But almost the inverse for pred assessor For the early game feels kind of like meh until the fang toots start going around Right, and then the body the time you get to lay game Then things are starting to click a little better and just the feel of the game gets a little bit more consistent Um, and I think if they could learn from each other on each respective aspect, it would be really beneficial for both Um, I think uh for me, it's going to be a little bit of a combo of what jelly is talking about It's more about like I think minions and macro For me when I think about like how much fun it is to fight around objectives in over prime That to me is one of the best parts about over prime is is the team fighting around objectives Whereas the team fighting around objectives in predecessor is Janky at best in my opinion I very rarely come out of a team fight in predecessor feeling like Amazing or like there was some really cool Outplay or you know, whatever whereas in over prime. It feels like any fight can go Relatively in any direction based off of the skill of of the expression of the players and and the champions that are in it um on the opposite and over primes like uh minions And macro from that perspective is dog shit Nothing in over prime like yes, of course you need the golden experience And I would say it's more about the experience and it's even the gold And over prime in early game You just need to get levels because levels matter more than anything else because you're gonna have to Use those skills to be able to fight and then and once the team fights start popping off Um, but being able to set up waves being able to like Take it turrets and not it just none of it really matters It's just kind of like eventually you're gonna get to every game It never ends before 20 minutes or very very rarely before 20 minutes So you're gonna get to 20 minutes and then it's just three people or four people Looking at each other in mid lane waiting for somebody to walk into jungle That's not supposed to be in jungle and then they get picked off and that's how then the game ends or Eventually one of the the the buffs comes up and we're like, all right. We got all run over there How many smites do they have all bro? They got three smites We got a like, you know, we got to win the team fight. We can't even 50 50 the smite It just it turned it's dog shit whereas in pred now I would say more than it was before but it's been progressively getting better You do feel like there's more around the macro aspects Uh, it still couldn't get improvements, but I think it's better You can set up slow pushes You can actually stack minion waves and have them get a big push and and you know And if the enemy team is not paying attention, it'll take a turret or it'll take an inhib or whatever and so to me that's Yeah, that's where I would want both games to kind of look at each other and be like, how can we Make these things better in over prime if I see a wave, I don't care where it is I'm taking that entire wave for the gold and the xp in predecessor There are times where I will set a slow push by only killing the range minions And then I'll walk away and leave that gold on the table Yeah, because it's more beneficial to the game overall Yeah, 100% agree with that Anyway, let's start closing things out We've been going for a while and I feel like playing some sons of the forest boys You guys feel like playing some sons of the forest I do I gotta I gotta walk the dogs, but then uh, yeah, and then I'm down I think chat would probably love it if we streamed one of us got on live and played it And so they could watch us Fight baby monsters and guys who spew stuff at us and Cat dogs cat dogs in the base chasing us around Yeah, uh, I guess I'll close it out So I've been streaming a little bit more people have noticed on twitch I don't know what it is, but for some reason youtube live has just been garbage recently I don't know what changes have happened, but twitch is what probably if I do stream where you're gonna see it Um, I did post my own twitch in ftm chat, but it's just the same name the viking jedi So you guys can come there Uh, I don't think me personally. I'm not going to speak for these guys, but I'm burnt out on Overprime and on predecessor right now. I did it really really really enjoy my pred time this last week I played a more games of pred this last week Then I have probably any other patch. So this last patch for pred is really good Kudos to them over prime patch was okay It was better than the one before but it's still the main things that are frustrating are still frustrating So I'm just not all that bought into it, which sucks because I want it to be good Um, but yeah, so I'll probably if I go live I'll probably be playing something not pred or not op I'll be I don't know what but something else. Maybe we're a company. I don't know That's it. That's all I got What means joe nays Uh, go watch the kalea gameplay video. It's super she's super fun I think you guys will really like her Animations are of course work in progress right and there are a couple other things in there But for the most part she's really coming along as as a really solid character And it's super fun to see her in the game as well Like you said man, this is one of the first characters we heard about way back yonder Um, and so it's fun to have her around but yeah, otherwise Uh, follow me on youtube and twitch and that's it. What about you magus? Yeah, same old same old stuff. Uh, I'm gonna start restreaming this On youtube and twitch We get we get both of them going maybe I'll try it probably next time We'll we'll be on twitch and the youtube at the same time Maybe migrating over to twitch Uh, overall eventually I still don't know about that. I like having this one on youtube, but uh Anyway, that is gonna wrap it up for this week We had a lot to talk about we had a lot of good questions If you guys have any questions for us that you want that you want to hear here's addressed The ftm discord it's linked down below In the in the video description and thank you to everybody who hung out with us all night tonight And thank you to everybody who uh who watched this entire video But for now, this is the four the minions crew signing off you guys. Have a good