 Welcome everyone to Sun and Fun 2008. My name is Kathleen O'Brien and we're here down in studio for forums on safety. When I was 10, my biggest safety risk was how to get to the highest part of the tree and not let my mother know. But as lives get more complicated, safety and risk can get more complicated. Today's speaker is Mike Halloran. He's a colleague, he's a friend, he's a fast team program manager. Mike has had personal experience with balancing risk and safety. He owns a motorcycle for instance, he has a teenage daughter, how bad can that be. And he also is a project manager for the safety management systems, an ongoing effort of the FAA to embed the new and most recent knowledge that we have about how to manage risk. Mike Halloran is a safety program manager and will talk to us today about how those principles that researchers, pilots, airmen and everyone else have learned about safety, how to bring that knowledge back into your own life and how to manage your risk. Mike. Well great. Thanks Kathleen. All right. Good deal. Thank you. Thank you. Well good morning everyone, Sun and Fun 2008. By a show of hands, how many people have been to Sun and Fun already? Great. Quite a bit. I'm going to tell you for me personally, this is my first experience, experiencing Fun and Sun and I know that this is day one and I know that it's going to get a lot bigger and better but already I'm impressed. I'm really happy to be just involved in aviation, still consider myself a general aviation guy, although I have been working with industry out there, working with airlines, purely my love of aviation comes from that one on one relationship. Really happy to be here to talk to you today about a program in its bigger sense and its bigger scheme. It is called Safety Management Systems and we've been talking to a lot of airlines, a lot of aviation service providers is what we've been terming them. But one of the biggest things I've tried to wrestle with here and hopefully I've done a good job, this will be one of the premieres here and such, is how to take some of these components or some of these facets of a safety management system and how to boil them down so they're applicable to the individually-certificated airmen, whether you're a repairman, whether you're a mechanic or whether you're a pilot. So let's see what we can do. I've learned a lot about what we're going to be talking about here in this presentation today. I'm not going to be talking about any particular genre. I'm not going to be picking on pilots, I'm not going to be picking on mechanics or anything like that, but I do want to just maybe transfer some knowledge, basic knowledge which you may have not thought about before and see if you can't pick up a little bit of those nuggets of truth. So we'll see how we do. Is it safe? Is what we do in aviation safe? How many people on out there, I don't know if you're like me, right after you got your pilot's license, you wanted to take up your friends, your colleagues and one of the first things out of their mouths is they said, you know, is it safe? And what did you respond? You responded with, well, of course it is. I'm at the controls, I'm a pilot, of course it's safe. What can go wrong? A hundred percent safety is what I can guarantee. But I'd like to ask you that question right here, do you think that that's a true statement as much as we'd like to believe it? I don't think so, no. Aviation is not a hundred percent safe, even though we like to sell it, even though we like to profess it and we like to demonstrate it a lot, I don't think that that's really an attainable goal or we haven't attained it right there. So with that, what I'd like to do is kind of put safety into a proper context to just launch this presentation. What would you think if you went to an airline and you saw this poster right here, and I'll read it off the slide, welcome to Big Blue Airlines. When you fly with us, you have a 95 percent chance of surviving the flight. How would you like to see that on a poster? You think you'd get a lot of people? 95 percent is a good number, isn't it? It's really good. You only have a 5 percent chance of not meeting the flight, let's put it that way. However, I don't think that there's anybody here in this room that would really subscribe to that, just from that little chance of not really surviving the flight if you didn't make it. But if we can't guarantee 100 percent safety, and there are those margins of errors on out there, what sort of a percentage would you give it out there if I could ask that question? Are we 50 percent safe? Are we 75 percent safe? Anybody want to be brave enough to maybe throw out a number? Anybody like that? It's probably good that you don't do that, because really we haven't been able to quantify that in an exact percentage of a number. This is why it's important to put an appropriate definition to safety and put it into context is what I like to say. Is there anybody out there that would like to put an appropriate definition to safe as it relates to aviation? Anybody? Nobody have? Nobody that brave yet? Okay. I did. I looked up the dictionary term of safe and safety and Miriam Webster coined it as freedom from harm or risk. You think that's an appropriate definition of what we do here in aviation? I don't think we're totally 100 percent free of any harm or risk. I also pulled up there in some of the definitions and in the thesauruses, trustworthy and reliable. I thought that was a fairly good close definition, but not exact. I could think of maybe something that is trustworthy and reliable, but not very safe about a fixed-pitch propeller when it's rotating and spinning. That's trustworthy and that's reliable, but at the time it may not be very safe. Some of my colleagues there within the FAA would like to believe this here in compliance with regulations and standards. Or even you've been out there and you've probably flown and you've probably maybe heard it being mentioned, well, it's not against any regulations. It's got to be safe, right? So that probably doesn't fit either. What I'd like to offer, and I've boiled down the sentence quite a bit, is I'd like to offer known, predictable, and acceptable risk, all right? Let me just say that again and just camp on that for a little bit. Known, predictable, and acceptable risk, all right? Yeah. I'll tell you, it's not the people that study in laboratories and think tanks and everything. I think that this definition in this term has gone back quite a bit. As a matter of fact, Wilbur Wright, back in 1901, he coined it this way. He said, carelessness and overconfidence are more dangerous than deliberately accepted risk, all right? He had something going there. Deliberately accepted risk probably means something a little bit different in today's terminology. It's calculated risk. Risk that we've known, risk that we've accepted right there as we do the things that we do in aviation, all right? So now that we've kind of got an idea of where it is that we're going with this presentation, let's go ahead and dive in a little bit more on that word risk. Looking at risk here, once again, I dug into good old Merriam-Webster and looked at their dictionary term, and I saw that Merriam-Webster defined it as the possibility of loss or injury, but that was rather interesting. I was starting to get there, but then I looked, I actually found one of the better definitions by looking at the FAA system safety course. We have a course out there at the FAA Academy called System Safety, and if you key in on the golden words, you're doing really well. It states the probability and severity of an accident or loss from exposure to various hazards. Key word right there, including injury to people and loss of resources, all right? So let's go ahead and drill down just a little bit more if we will. Let's go ahead and flip on out to hazard. Let me go ahead and offer it to the audience here. Is there anybody that has got a pretty good handle or is brave enough to explain what a hazard might be? Anyone? Once again here, let me go ahead and throw it up there on the screen then. A hazard is any real or potential condition, all right, or state that can cause degradation, injury, illness, death, or damage to people or property, okay? So I've got a condition out there, a state, or something that is, all right, and that, if I'm exposed to it, can create that risk, all right? So you can't really talk about safety until you put it in the proper context of risk and hazard. They all kind of interrelate, don't they? One other thing that I would like to offer on out there is risk, objective, or subjective. I think Kathleen mentioned it when she interviewed me right here is that I do own a motorcycle and I do have teenagers and I'm here to publicly apologize for that, by the way. But one of the things that I do accept is a certain amount of risk in my life. One of them is to ride a motorcycle right there and some of you may not feel that way in the audience. So risk is not very objective. I would like to offer that risk is a very subjective thing on how much you want to accept and how much you don't. But it relies on two different or two basic principles is that you need the knowledge of the risk that you're exposed to, you must need to understand, and then also how much risk you're willing to accept. Those are the two things I hope that you'll take away from this part of the presentation. Coming out of the IKOs and that's the International Civil Aviation Organization out of their Safety Management Manual, they have this figure on up here and it divides acceptable risk basically into two categories but commonly divided up into three and this I'd like to offer to you. At either end of the spectrum, that is all the way at the bottom or all the way at the top, if your risk is very small or if it's very large, that's relatively easy to understand and to grasp. You can get a consensus by a lot of not only yourself but your colleagues out there that is too great of a risk to accept or the risk is just so small it's negligible, that's fine. But as we start to work towards the middle of that triangle if you will and as you start to see the risk grow, you actually, for those of you that are in the audience and in the back right there, you'll actually see that we get into a tolerable range, don't we? It's if you folks are pilots out there, how much will I tolerate? The weather is starting to close in. Well, that's okay. Well, if you're a mechanic, I don't really have the tools that I need to get this job done or I'm not into a hanger that's protected me from the elements. Well, that's okay too, I guess there's a certain amount that I can tolerate. So you start to leave that acceptable level to that tolerable level and then finally, and once again it's a subjective thing, you hit that unacceptable line. And sometimes here in the heat of the battle, and I know I can talk about that from my own experiences when I was out there personally flying and completing a flight, I too would get that get-home-itis or there would be that pressure to get that flight completed. And that line between acceptable and unacceptable and what I would tolerate was definitely bumped way on up there, higher and higher. I just want to offer that. You'll also see right there on that figure here the acronym ALARP. And that stands for as low as reasonably practicable. And that if you start to see something that is in the tolerable level before it actually gets to the intolerable level, maybe you as aviators and whatever you are doing will work to make something ALARP. Can I mitigate all of those risks that I'm being exposed to? Can I drive those down? Can I do something that will lessen my risk? That's what I'd like to just offer you is that acronym ALARP. I'm also a glider pilot and I've heard the term T-LAR. That looks about right, you know, when something doesn't or something does look about right, then you use that. That's the same type of acronym I hope that you and your personal flying will be able to identify and use. Have I ALARPed this situation as much as I can? Two critical components in determining acceptable risk, and that's what we're going to be getting to, is one, the knowledge on how to identify the hazards existing around you and next to objectively assess how bad and likely consequences can be. As you look there at that picture, I think you can kind of identify some of the hazards and maybe some of the risks that you might be exposing yourself if you choose to land there or actually to get to the airport. If you look very carefully at that slide, you'll actually see that the highway comes around the front of the runway right there. So you could be at the risk of having an airplane taxi right on over you or do the overrun and actually going across the highway, if you will. Anyway, the risk management or what I've coined for this presentation, the personal safety risk management process is simply six steps. I don't want to oversimplify it, but it has boiled down to six steps, which I hope will be helpful to you. And it starts just like a clock at the 12 o'clock position and goes all the way around. How many people by a show of hands have actually seen something like this, close to it, men exposed to it? Yeah, a few of you on out there, great. All right, these are the same terms that we are using in the program that I'm pioneering and our project office is pioneering in safety management systems. We're looking at safety risk management and it follows this process right here. So why don't we go through it real quick? The first step is to identify hazards, all right? That sounds easy enough, right? Identify your hazards that exist out there. But when I have worked with aviation service providers and some of those operators on out there that are in companies and such, I find that what's easily said and what's easily stated is not necessarily the case. And so what I like to offer those people that are starting to look into this program when they have trouble identifying their hazards and such is to identify the system. Now, this is what I mean by identifying the system, not only yourself and what you're trying to get done but to look at the bigger picture. The only thing I mean here by using the word system is think of interrelated processes or influences that come together to work to get something done. That's the only thing that identifying a system is. And maybe looking at the mission, exactly what is the goal? Am I trying to do an annual inspection and get that complete on this aircraft? Am I trying to fly from A to B? Am I, you know, what is the goal or what is the objective? All right, you can start stating that and just writing it down. Starting to look at some of the things around you, all right? Let's consider the machine. If you're an aviation mechanic, you know, if you're a mechanic, do I have the proper tools? You know, do I have the resources? Do I have that data to get things done? If you're a pilot, how's my aircraft? Is it a day VFR flight, you know, and I don't need the eyebrow lights very much? Or is it night or into IFR? Some of those things to think about. You consider the machine. Consider the man or, you know, woman, right there. That's kind of a generic term, all right? Consider yourself and others around you. Will there be enough fuel at another place? And how experienced is that, are those line personnel people? You know, can jet A get in the same tank as the AFGAS? Are there other people around you in this process that's going to affect things? How about the medium or the environment? Do I have weather that's creeping up? Now, some of those types of things. And then finally, management. What's exactly in my control and that I can direct? Maybe I can get on a cell phone and check on something. And what's out of my control? So once you start to identify the situation you're in and start to look into that a little bit more, I'm sure that those hazards or shortcomings will start to pop up and start to pop out. And that's the first part of the process. Looking at the next step here, analyze the risk. Now, this doesn't mean that, you know, you have to break out charts, a compass, you know, and a protractor and really start to get, you know, involved in the process. You know, it just means that you consider all of the things that you've written down, consider all of those hazards and how much influence you think that they're going to be. And when I do work with the aviation industry world and the aviation service providers, you might, you know, I offer them a graph that looks like this, this type of matrix. Whoops, let me go back here real quick. I offer them this risk assessment matrix. And as you can see right there in the upper left-hand corner, it's broken down into, excuse me, I'm kind of getting ahead of myself right here. In order to come up with a risk, you need to identify its severity and you need to identify its likelihood or its also termed probability, all right? Once you've determined those two things, how severe is it or how bad could it or can it be or has it been in the past? And then also, what's the likelihood of that happening? You can start to under see or you can start to understand and see what a risk is all about. As you look there at that chart here, you can see in the upper left-hand side here, if something is very catastrophic and it will happen often, well, that is a very high risk. And then coincidentally here, if something is very improbable and also negligible in the severity, you know, you would paint that risk as being very low. But that's what you're wanting to do. You're wanting to identify the hazards or the shortcomings that's going to influence safety and then you attach a risk value to it. Ultimately, you're going to then make an informed decision in step three. And is the situation acceptable? You're going to come to a crossroads right here and it's what Wilbur Wright was talking about. Is it acceptable risk? If the risk is acceptable right here, as you'll see on the diagram, you can do what I call the happy loop. And if that is acceptable, you just go ahead and drop on down and go back on up to the top of the wheel and say, okay, let me go ahead and consider some of the other hazards that's out there. If it's not acceptable to you, meaning it's not tolerable and we, you know, we do have the tools and resources to mitigate that down or reduce it down, let's continue on to, you know, the rest of the clock or the rest of the wheel. Step four, plan for something better. What will drive the situation safer? You know, let's develop some risk controls. Are there some things that you have or haven't thought about before? Have I driven this down or what can I do to drive it down to ALARP or as low as reasonably practicable? Okay. What's also within your control? All right. There could be things that are in your control when you decide to take this flight on that the decision you can make right now that you can't take once you're up in the air, do I have control right now and I can make a decision or, you know, what do I have that is in control later on when I complete the flight? And what I'd like to throw on out there right now is, is what is the word practicable? I had a problem with that at first and I had to camp on that. Well, for those of you that are on out in the audience and for those of you that do know and such, practicable is what can I put in practice? What is practicable? What is appropriate at this time and at this juncture? And that's what practicable is. Once again, these decisions and then these controls that you put in could be complex or it could be a simple fix, all right? But that's all about developing controls to reduce your risk down to acceptable level. When I work with the service providers out there, usually at about this process or about this part of the wheel, things start to break down. People come up with great plans, also involves a lot of money, also involves a lot of training, a lot of shifting, and somehow those plans never seem to get off the paper to actually be put into practice. So this is a very important part of the process and that is to actually walk that talk or to implement those controls. What is practicable? And now let's go ahead and let's get off the dime and let's go ahead and let's put those into place, all right? Some of the people, some of the companies that I've been working with, they actually have substituted efficiency and they've actually done and or cost savings in this. And this really isn't the case. We want to make sure that it's actually using safety as the centerpiece and we're keeping that high on priority. This is not a financial management system, you know? This is not an efficiency management system. It's a safety risk management process and or system. So we need to keep that in mind and keep that focused. So anyway, working through the wheel right here, step six, meeting the intent. Are the controls working? And what I mean by that is did we hit the mark? You know, did we do what was actually intended? Or is this making the flight safer? Or is this actually working? Also, is there any residual risk and is that acceptable? You know, did we reduce it down to A, you know, A-LARP as much as possible and now is this truly acceptable? And once again, in your personal flying, only you yourself can actually make that determination. Please, as you're going through this process, if you do choose to use the process, I would offer that to be honest with yourself, you know, with this thing. I see a lot of people that actually adopt this in companies and they do it for a lot of fanfare, but really, it's not the FAA's program and the FAA is not going to be judging, you know, the aviation service provider nor you, okay? This is your process and this is your program and we're just offering it to you and hoping that you will be able to identify those hazards, exposure to risk and mitigate them. Did it cause any collateral hazards or risks to appear? Is what I'm doing now, did it make something else pop up? And that's what leads you all the way back around to, you know, a closed loop, a never-ending process, all right? That's kind of either the maddening thing or the good thing about this process is once you start, there really isn't an ending. It's an evolution. I think I went the wrong way with it. You know, it's interesting. I may have said before that, you know, we here in aviation were very goal-oriented and that's a great thing. I remember when I was first learning to fly, you know, I would be wanting that left seat in that 747, flying for that airline or I wanted to get my pilot, my private pilot's license at the time, you know, and I remember being very frustrated with the flight instructors that I had because I wasn't able to reach that goal in the amount of time that I thought I should be getting my pilot certificate or not. It's very important to understand that all of these goals that we're setting for ourselves are just a work in a work as individual steps. So everything that we do in aviation to reach a goal or an objective is links in a chain, if you will, and it's just a process. And if you think about it, flying a flight, it involves a pre-flight, it involves a takeoff, and a cruise, an in-range, and finally a landing phase, and what a lot of people don't do, which my old flight instructor always did, was a self-evaluation of the flight. How did that flight go? How could I do it better? He was a great flight instructor and he always kept notes to himself on a little spiral ring notebook and kept it in a shirt pocket. You know, and he would go back and try to fix those either errors or shortcomings or those hazards or exposures to risk. So what I'd like to offer here is what it says on the slide, because we operate in such an unforgiving environment, all right, shouldn't these processes be assessed for risk? You know, if you think about it, aviation, you know, we've worked really hard to make it very safe and we are in a very risk intolerant environment, aren't we? Yeah. So maybe we should actually assess these things for its safety or our exposure to risk. That's one thing, there's a part in the safety management systems briefing that I like to cover and that is a human error and a little bit about that. And it's kind of funny is as we learn in aviation and as we grow and choose to do things whether it's the same or different, once I got my private pilot certificate, I thought I knew how to fly. Well, that's until I went and tried to get my instrument rating and found out that I didn't know very much about aviation. So it's just a continuous evolution. Currently, back in my hometown airport, back in Scottsdale, Arizona, I like to humble myself and go up in a technologically advanced aircraft, a TAA aircraft and take a big bite of humble pie and have a 22, 23-year-old flight instructor show me how to safely fly this aircraft. It's a never-ending process and all that I'm here to say is that in that learning, it is its success and failure actually spring from the same psychological roots, don't they? And the errors mark the boundaries of the path to success. You're actually doing something but you're banging down this hallway until you finally learn and learn to do it right. But wow, isn't it important to take somebody with you or to reach out and get those resources because we're in such a critical environment here. So risk adverse that, you know, we really need that mentorship and that partnering. That's what that's all about. The bad news is that we're hardwired to make errors. We just are. That's the way we are. The good news is that errors aren't intrinsically bad. You know, if we're, you're sitting down right now, we're watching a presentation, something that might happen, an error that I might make, I might, you know, toggle the wrong way on this presenter right here. That's really not a big deal as far as safety goes. But if you actually put human error and you put it into a different condition or a different environment as the slide shows you right here, it could be a lot different, could it, you know? So what we need to do is actually increase awareness by addressing human error. And that's one of the things that the FAA is starting to do, looking into human factors, human performance, human error, and creating a positive safety culture and then also managing the unforgiving workplace. That's a little bit about what we talked about here as we, as we identified the hazards in the beginning part of that process. Hopefully we can, we can avoid a disaster. One of the things I'd like to do before I conclude is, it is a thing I call a takeaway and such. And one of the takeaways I'd like to offer you here is when I go on out and I present a lot of the presentations that I give, sometimes I throw out this question and I'm rather surprised at the results. I ask rather innocently, who's responsible for aviation safety? I should re-clarify that. Who's directly responsible for aviation safety? Matter of fact, I was up in a very large forum, a little over 400 people and I threw out that question. And wouldn't you be surprised if almost everybody in the audience turned and finger pointed to me saying the FAA was directly responsible for aviation safety? And I thought, wow, this is going to be a different presentation. This is going to be different. I would like to offer to you that on the takeaway, the people who produce aviation, or call it create aviation, whether it's take on a flight, produce anything, do an annual, actually produce a part, you have the direct control and therefore the primary responsibility for the safety actions, behaviors, and outcomes of what it is that you do. We in the FAA, we don't have that direct control and therefore not the direct responsibility. So I know that that, you know, to you folks right here, that probably goes without saying, but a lot of folks that I go on out there and I talk with, they have that skewed idea of, hey, I'm going to go on out there and I'm going to produce aviation or invent aviation as much as I can and it's up to the FAA to make sure that I do things safely. That just isn't the point. So I would just like to make sure that that's maybe one of the takeaways here that you bring. Takeaway number two, and this is very important right here, is to have a plan. Now I'm not saying a flight plan necessarily, although if you want to do a flight plan, that's okay. I'm talking about as you started, or as we went through this safety risk management process, it probably got you thinking, you know, if you were to do this in real life, that, hey, here are the hazards that's out here and here are the ways that I can go about mitigating those hazards and develop controls that probably led you right down the path of, hey, let me develop a plan for this safe flight or this safe annual, you know, trying to reduce and mitigate those risks. Just picking on the pilots right here, just for a little bit, it is if you have a plan, it will also reduce your stress and your stress level. What we've noticed here in the FAA is when you start to increase stress, two things happen. Your brain actually has the cognitive learning ability to where you can think and process numbers, do calculations, that heavy type of thinking. And then you also have the side of your brain that's actually operated by what's known as the fight or flight or the amygdala. And when your stress levels start to go up, what actually happens is you start to induce chemicals, natural body reaction, chemicals into your system. Well, what that does is that stress level and those chemicals into your system actually inhibit the cognitive thinking in your brain and reduce that ability to cognitively think but are unaffected by the amygdala and that fight or flight. Okay, so you're more controlled by your emotions and not your cognitive thinking. And all that I'm trying to say right here is if you come up with a plan and you plan out that flight and think it through, you're actually reducing that stress level, you know, when you go on out there into a flight. But just to show of hands, how many people have gone to a flight lesson and gone to an instructor and your instructor said, you know, well, what are we doing today? Or he or she was late, they jumped into the cockpit and said, oh, we'll just figure it out once we get on up there. You know, it doesn't leave you with much of a plan, does it? Okay, and I'll admit it right there. I had been affected by that. I was a student, you know, that was subjected to that or to that. And I was also the flight instructor that was running late as I was putting a candy bar, you know, down my mouth, turning to the students saying, what are we doing today? It was a big disservice. So once again, to have a plan. The next part is to have a backup plan, what I would like to offer. What I mean by backup plan is that if you see some of the hazards and the risks that are out there, you may want to develop an alternative plan because plan A just may not work. What's your plan B to meet that objective? Maybe it's the amount of time. Give yourself that extra amount of time or that day. Maybe equipment isn't working on the airplane. The weather has started moving in. What's your alternative plan? All right, develop that. And then lastly right here is the slide shows have a bailout plan. When things go bad, tell yourself that it's okay. And just by developing a bailout plan gives yourself that exit stage left. Or just, you know, let's just pull the plug on this whole thing. Where can I land? Or where can I button up this aircraft? Or where can I just stop and reevaluate? Having those three things, have the plan, have a backup plan and have a bailout plan are very important. And it's actually one of the things that I've learned about when I've looked at other extreme sports, such as Mount Nearing, all right. They taught a Mount Nearing follows a very close path of aviation. Climbing the mountain could be getting to the goal, could be getting to the top. However, they describe it in the books that I've been reading that talk about this. One of the books is called Deep Survival by Lawrence Gonzalez. Actually talks about reaching that goal is a process. And what he also talks about is how most of the accidents in Mount Nearing occur after the summit is reached. Because we've met the objective. We're now exhausted. Physiologically, we're probably starving for oxygen. And quite honestly, mechanically, if you think about it, our bodies are just designed the way we walk. If we go uphill, all of our balance is still on our rear foot as we put one step in front of the other. As we walk down the mountain, we have to commit to that step before we're sure of our footing. So it's just all of these mechanical things that just mount up that these experienced Mount Neers know. That these are the small things, the risk exposures and the gotchas that exist in Mount Nearing. And we have to allow for. And what I'd like to offer to you is the same thing. They come up with having a plan, having the backup plan and then also having the bailout plan. Well, with that, you know, that's my presentation formally. And what I would like to do right now is just open it up to the audience and take any questions that you might have. So, I think they're. Let's do it and repeat it. Tim, ask for the companies or public. I think the question was that that was a good question. When is safety management systems going to be regulatory or required within the aviation industry? And right now, we're working on policy and or ruling on safety management systems formally. Probably in 2010 to 2011, it is what that will look like. But for right now, we're starting to work with the large industry partners, if you will. What's known as the FAR 121 or the large airline folks. And then it'll start to be adopted and grafted all the way down into what's known as the general aviation community. So, that's a very good question. But I do want to add that even though there is a required component of this and that the FAA is looking to write policy, I think that the people that have taken this on voluntarily and seen what a safety management system can do in their organization is that they have seen that this is beneficial in their operation. So, what I'd like to offer is that required or not, this is actually good for the aviation industry. Safety risk management is one of the two chambered hearts that we talk about in the SMS process. And that was briefly what we went on over today. So, good question. If there's nothing else here, I thank you. And enjoy the show. Thank you, Catherine. Thank you. I want you to stay around for people to come up. And we're going to be going back upstairs for some more roof interviews. And earlier today, the CEO of Embry-Air was talking about when he began the process of creating an aircraft. The first thing he did or the company does is a study of MMI, man-machine interface. And this is what we're doing right now, Michael. And this is what you've talked about. How do we do it on a personal level? How does it go into our flying, into our living? And how do we make our aviation whole system work better? So, come on out here and let's talk to the people. Okay. Thank you. Bye.