 So a lot of you guys follow this channel because you want to know how to get into PA school. James got into PA school not once, but twice. I literally felt like my first six exams bro. I'm being completely honest with you. Like I just didn't know it to expect. It felt like after I failed the first one, I just couldn't recover. I got down myself trying to work a little harder. Um, I didn't know how to study, you know, studying in undergrad compared to PA school is totally different than, you know, mentally, you know, people don't talk about the mental aspect of PA school. I said, you know what? I'm going to do this because this is what I want to do. I got to find a way to get back in and this time I want to make it count. Yes. So the whole thing was designed basically as a pre medical thing. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And that's where you ended up excelling. Absolutely. Absolutely. You hit around the nose, bro. And he literally said, well, you know, I hope this good news serves you well. We just wanted to offer you a seat and the Rutgers for starting out. And it was just shocking, bro. Helping others is a calling. It's not a job. All right. Hey guys, my name is Boris. I'm a physician assistant in my third year of practice. Joining me today is a very special guest. So a lot of you guys follow this channel because you want to know how to get into PA school. James got into PA school not once, but twice. So that's going to be an interesting story. I can't wait to hear some of the comments you guys have, but if you have any questions for him, let me know. But without further ado, James, the floor is yours, my man. I want you to tell us your story. Who are you? First of all, Boris, I appreciate you having me on my man. I appreciate you. I mean, he's got my story, so cheers to you. And all you do to help all the prepiers out there. So that's the first thing I wanted to say in terms of my story. Yes, it's been a journey, man. Probably around 2015 is when I decided I wanted to go to PA school. A girl I was dating at the time, she actually told me about the PA profession, you know, I just might say it was either medical school or nothing. I think a lot of people have had that mindset. I really didn't know what you did. And she was just telling me, you know, just look into it for me. You know, I said, OK, fine, look into it. Right. Loved everything about it, flexibility, started researching schools and just made up my mind. I had a lot of fun in undergrad. I went to East Carolina University, located in Greenville, North Carolina. And so it was probably like a good seven or eight years before I decided I want to go to PA school, but I had like a lot of a variety of grades. I like to say some C, some B, some S on the transcript. And so research and schools and the reality it just hit me like you're going to retake a lot of these classes if you're serious about this. And so that's what I did. I was working as a CNA for Home Health. So my schedule was kind of all over the place will allow me a lot of flexibility when I decided to go to school. And then that's when I started taking classes at my local community college. At times I was going to a community college and a university. It was about 40 minutes away because, as you guys know, with upper science level courses, community colleges don't offer them. So I had to find another way. So I was taking all those classes, retaking, JNKM, biology, orgo, genetics, biochem, like a million courses in city life. But after a lot of hard work and whatnot or in 2016, I was fortunate enough to get accepted into Methodist University. I think I applied to like 15 schools and that was the only school. It's not only all from your interview, but they accepted me. And that was in March of 2016. And so it was a great feeling, man. You know, I remember going there, I nervous I was. They said there was basically four slots left. I think I wanted to potential applicants ask them how many slots were left, which I thought was a little forward, but, you know, whatever. And so there was like 15 of us and I was fortunate to get one of those slots. So I'm excited. My hard work's paid off, and now I'm going to be a PA. I went to Methodist University as a small school was located in Fayetteville, North Carolina, Big Army Town. And so didn't know much about it, knew a little bit, moved down there, was excited to go to PA school. And I knew it would be a lot of hard work, but I was ready to get my journey started. And, you know, a lot of people tell you PA school is like, you know, drinking from a wire hose or it's unlike anything you've ever experienced. But the problem with that is you don't really know until you get in there. That's one thing that I really learned. But, you know, it's funny, man, because once you're in it, like, it's too late. Like you can't like pause or backtrack like you're in it. So you just got to go through it. And you already got student loans and already got student loans, bro. And you're in it. You're in it. Finish. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And it was a private school, bro. And it was a private school. So, you know, it was even more expensive. Now, it's just a year. Yes, sir. And so it was tough, man. Like my first I literally felt like my first six exams, bro. I'm being completely honest with you. Like I just didn't know it to its best. It felt like after I failed the first one, I just couldn't recover. I got down myself and like, you know, in PA school, there's no time to get down there. So something goes bad. And before I could blink, like six exams and past the first exam, my past was like my anatomy exam. And I was like, you know, I got like an 83. I was like, so happy. Like, I'm like, OK, something good came out of this. But, bro, probably I probably failed 15 exam exams that semester. No lie. I was barely getting by. And, you know, there's certain schools have a remediation process and every school is different. How methods did it is if you like took an exam and failed, you had like an assignment you had to do. Then you had to retake the same exam and pass it. And if you had a 75, which at that time was like the lowest for a C within their curriculum. And so I was doing that, you know, you can multiply that by 15 or whatnot. So I'm working three times as hard or it's like most of my classmates and I'm barely getting by. Methodist had a policy where if you failed two class, you could fail two classes and die that day. And then after that, you would, you know, have to leave the program or have to remediate or decelerate or whatnot. And so I failed to the first semester. So I used my two up out the gate. It was physiology and it was pharmacology. There was three, three parts of the pharmacology class. It was farm one, farm two, farm three. So I failed farm one and physiology, remediate the, remediate those. I had to study all Christmas break, which was terrible because I really didn't get a break, came back. Didn't even know if I'd be able to start the semester because I had to pass these exams while I was fortunate enough to pass. So I'm coming to the spring, new mindset, trying to work a little harder. I didn't know how to study, you know, studying in undergrad compared to PA school is totally different. I'm looking at the slides. I'm getting stuff messed up. I can't keep stuff straight. I'm staying up till three in the morning. I can't stay away from class. It's just like a revolving cycle, bro. And so I was fortunate enough to make it through the spring, barely. I think we had 10 classes at that point. The fall semester, we had like seven and then we went through the summer and I'm pretty sure we had 13 classes and it was just a lot, bro. It was like non-stop. There were some days we'd have two exams and one day I was just like overwhelmed. And you know, mentally, you know, people don't talk about the mental aspect of PA school. You know, you're working as hard as you can. At least that's how it was raised and you're expecting to see the fruits of your labor and that's not happening. And so I go into depression. I'm very bummed out. I started getting resentful because I mean, I don't know what else I can do. I'm doing all I can and I'm just not seeing the results. And so... Did your program support you at all? You know, on this downward spiral, counseling, tutoring, did anything? Yeah, you know, they said, you know, you can come to our office hours if you want James, which I did. There was a lot of support there. But maybe, you know, like, I don't know, maybe I don't think I was ready for PA school and to be honest with you Boris, when you keep hearing the same thing over and over again, you start getting tone deaf. Like I didn't want to hear, like, you know, the same old keep working hard and stuff. I need to know how to pass these exams. Because I passed... They didn't, like, break down, like, step-by-step how to study? Yeah, I mean, they offer, like, study groups and maybe you can study with people in the class and stuff like that. But I'm not a big group studyer or whatnot. Yeah, not me neither. And so that didn't work. What I did find out, something that did work for me was, like, charts and making them colorful. I'm a visual learner. So, like, if I'm learning stuff in charts, if I got diagnosis, I got the signs and symptoms, diagnostic and treatment. If they're all in red, when I'm studying, I can remember that. So when it comes up on the exam, okay, this diagnosis was in red. What was the treatment in red? And it worked, it clicked. But I was, like, writing out my charts. That was the problem. That was taken too long. And so then I had to go on the computer. I didn't find the computer to be as effective. And so I was just, like, all over the place, man. And so the summer we entered, we had, like, a weekend in between semesters. It was a 27-month program. And so it was super intense. The summer was, like, 13 classes. And that fall and fall was the last semester before White Coat Ceremony. So I'm like, okay, I'm not too far ahead. Just keep going. Just keep working. You know, I'm barely getting by, but I'm getting by. And so, man, just got to the point, like, it was so intense, like, you know, when we had our finals that semester, you know, it was, like, 13 finals, like, in a week. And it was just, like, insane. Some days it was, like, two finals in a day. I'll never forget it was my Orco final. And I just didn't feel good about it, bro. I did what I could. But unfortunately, I didn't make it. You know, I just didn't make it. And so then pass, you know, they said I could appeal, but that, like, very rarely gets accepted. I don't think anybody ever got accepted to that. So just to press, man, I'm not gonna lie. Just be honest with you, just went home, cried. I was just so down. I didn't know what I was gonna do. I had to call my parents. They were like, it's gonna be okay. We're gonna figure this out. Just a nightmare, man. I had to break my lease to my apartment. I had to, like, you know, I gave all my furniture to, like, Goodwill, like, the refurn, store, refurbish store, whatnot. Do all that. Move home. In debt. No direction, right? And so- I just- Can I just call attention to that? Because that's something, like, I don't want this to be a Debbie Downer episode, but this is a cold, hard reality that nobody considers. So, like, I'm sure, just like me, I'm sure you were in, like, the pre-PA groups, right? Right, yeah. PPA support group, 2024, whatever. Right. And, like, people get their acceptance letter and they're like, I'm gonna be a PA. And you're like, probably, but, buddy, like, this is not a guarantee. This is the first step. There's, like, a thousand steps. Yes. And nobody thinks that this is a possibility that you could be out. And you could be out with more debt and more, you know, just, like, drama and all kinds of stuff than before you started, unless you really put in the necessary work or some people put in the necessary work and they still don't make it, you know? Like, it's a reality. It's a reality. Most people make it, but not everybody. Right. And what- Go ahead. I'm sorry. No, that's mainly it. Well, and I guess I was just also gonna say some people make it through and they don't pass the pants. Right. That's also a possibility. It's never even who you think it is. Right. Like, some of the best students don't pass the pants. And it's like, that's also a possibility. Guys, like, nothing's guaranteed. Right. Okay. That's the one thing I learned. You gotta put in that work regardless. Until you get to passing on that pants, you can't breathe. You know, you've got to stay focused. Mm-hmm. Well, yeah. Until you get the stee. Until you get your stee. Right. Right. That's what I'm aiming for, what you have and whatnot. Well, and then the real work begins. Then the liability begins. That's the whole thing. Yeah, man, it was tough though. Like I said, people don't talk about it, but they don't see that moving home. No source of money. I was able to get my loan back, my loan money back before that next semester started, but I kind of wanted just to have a refund check because I had like no money, you got to think, you know? So I had to move home and took like a month to move to my apartment because I was going down like once every few weeks to move stuff back. And I finally just rented a U-Haul van and went down, moved all my stuff, packed up, told me, I told myself I wasn't coming to Fayetteville again. And so going home, I'm down, my mom had told all everybody in the neighborhood, everybody at my church, you know, these white coat ceremonies happening. And then this happens, bro. And, you know, I just, I didn't go outside for, I don't know how long. I was way too embarrassed. I didn't want to talk about it. I don't want to address it. I was just so embarrassed, bro. I was hurt, you know. And my dad's military, he knew how hard I'd work. And so he kind of gave me a few days to myself. And then he was just, you know, he's a pretty straight shooter. He's like, all right, what you going to do? Like it didn't work out. Do you want to try again? Do you want to do something else? You know, me and your mom will support you. You know, we love you regardless. If you want to go to nursing school, fine. If you want to go to X-ray tech school, fine. So we got your back. And- And do something. Right. Right. And my mom was like, you know, a lot of my professors, they say, you know, you work really hard. You got a big heart. You know, if you were to go to be a nurse or X-ray tech or whatever, you'd be a great job. You do a great job. And I thought about that, man. And I said, I didn't go to PA school to be an X-ray tech or a nurse. Like I want to be a PA. And it took a while, you know. I just, you know, just thinking about it and seeing all my classmates go to Whitecoats, seeing them pass the pants and seeing all my former classmates who are now PAs. Like it bothered me, man. Like it really, really dug at me. And I just remember thinking, I can't go out like this. Like this is what I want to do. Let me make the necessary adjustments. I had people I thought it was in my corner that left. They counted me out. You know, you really find out who's in your corner when you're down. It's not when you're holding when you're down. You really, really find out. And so, you know, I stayed focused. I never forgot that. I kept receipts. I said, you know what? I'm going to do this because this is what I want to do. I got to find a way to get back in. And this time I want to make it count. And so I took some time off. You know, I was just working, work back to a CNA. Luckily, my old job had some, some work. So I was fortunate to get some money coming in, but it wasn't much money. You know, CNA is going to make that much money. And so I was just like barely getting by. And that was like 16 August of 2016 and probably March of 2017. Things got a little better. Just a little bit. And then I decided, you know, I want to go back to PA school. I originally said I wanted to go to nursing school at South University, but I was just saying that, you know, I didn't really have that in my heart. I just wanted to feel some type of meaning, I guess, or self-worry. And I was going to pass forward. Right. Just to pass forward. And then, you know, I took a nutrition class there. And then they were talking about the teas test and stuff. And I was like, no, I don't want to do all that. So. Oh, you want to ace the teas? It was so easy. Yeah. That's why I'm here, man. You're going to kill them. Right. I was just like, let me try this PA school thing. So when I finally decided to make the decision to reapply and look into PA schools again, I'm researching. And now I have this big issue is I was in school and I didn't make it. So now that's an even bigger issue. Now you're not even trying. You're not only trying to get back in again, but you have to explain these schools and make them feel comfortable while they should accept you if you didn't make it through the first time. Right. What's different this time? Right. What's different? What is different this time? Right. And so I'm researching and stuff and trying to find the answer. You know, I'm getting frustrated and I've come across like, you know, some advice on some websites and stuff and people are getting master's degrees. And they're like, you know, a master's degree basically is like a litmus test. It gives PA schools a better idea of, you know, can you handle the rigorous coursework? You know, it's not like PA school, but I mean, master's degree courses are harder than undergrad. That's why there are master's degrees. So I'm just like, OK. And I think I was going to go to the University of Vermont or somewhere at North, somewhere random. You know, I was just trying to find somewhere and I was just typing. I typed in anatomy and physiology in the state of North Carolina. I'm originally from North Carolina. And upcups, upcomes North Carolina state interdisciplinary master's of physiology program. And I just click on it. And literally the first thing I read, bro, is this program is designed to make applicants more competitive for health professional programs. Oh, that's like a sign from God right there. You ever heard like they he like brings things around until you finally master it? Like, yes, he'll bring the same kind of like toxic relationship back around until you get over it. He'll bring the same whatever the same situation. Yeah. Basically you failed physiology or you didn't do good at physiology. And you were like, maybe I should get a master's in physiology. Yes, nothing shows that I've conquered that hurdle than that. You know what I mean? Right, absolutely. And it just like you say, it was like a light bulb. I'm like, this is it. So I'll start looking at the program. Pretty flexible. Three classes we had to take. Physiology one, two, and biochem. The rest we could choose. Really, really flexible. NC State was an hour and a half away from me. Fayetteville was three hours. So I'd be closer to home. I'm like, OK, let's do this. Had to apply. Had to show I had taken like some recent coursework. So I submitted courses for my community college. I was fortunate to get an interview with them on March in March of 2019 and was able. You know, I went down there and man, like the doctor of Dr. Wozniak, he was he was interesting. He came in there, you know, kind of like nerdy looking type, but very smart, very serious. And so I had to submit all my transcripts, including like methods. So he's going through and stuff. And he's just like, so you were in PA school. I'm like, you know, yes, sir. And he was just like, well, you know, it's harder to get in twice, right? I'm like, I know what, you know, I feel like this is going to help me. He said, well, you know, we're not an easy program, right? Like just because you didn't get it, make it through there, that doesn't mean it's easier. I said, totally, totally understand. I'm just looking for an opportunity. That's all. And he said, he's like, well, you know, I'll be honest with you, I don't I don't know. I don't know you at all. He said, but, you know, a lot of people seem to think you can do this. And on the side note, my program director, she wrote me a letter of recommendation to apply to that program, the master's of physics as a program director from PA school. Yes, Methodist. Oh, really? Yeah, we stay in contact till the day, man. We stay in fiber number in my home. And so she, she really believed in me and she basically was like, this is what happened. She acknowledged my flaws, but she was like, just give him an opportunity and I think he'll shine. And so he gave me an opportunity. He accepted me. I started August of 19. And so moved to NC State, missed feelings, right? Excited, but now I've taken this extra step, you know? But I knew this extra step was what I needed to get where I wanted to go, you know? So one of those types of feelings. Going there, staying focused, you know, worked hard, I was in like a graduate suite on campus. I'm like 10 years older than everybody. It's kind of like regaining the feeling, man. It's fun, isn't it? Yeah, it's fun. It's a little fun. Yeah, like you've seen those GI Bill memes, like the other one where he goes back to school. That's what it feels like. So I got 3.3 that semester, but it was hard because you know, my parents were helping me. They supported me. My mom always wanted me to do something I love because she didn't, you know, she wasn't able to do that. So she was always wanting me to do a career that I love. So they were helping me. Be honest, they were like taking out their retirement funds. So I felt a little depression here. Like wow, they're having me out there money. I know they care about me, but like I'm an adult. Like I should be able to do this on my own. And so I was depressed. I was like, man, I need to help them out. And so the next semester I said, I'm going to apply to be an RA next year. I want to be old, don't care, whatever, you know? I'm just going to do it. Went through that whole process and a long story short, man, they offered me a resident director position because they saw I was in a graduate school. And so I didn't know what that meant because I was never an RA in undergrad. And it turns out with the resident director, it was like a free furnished one bedroom apartment, free meal plan, free health insurance. They were paying me a lot to pay for the month. Plus they were paying my tuition period, bro. So essentially I was getting all of them. Oh wow, that's awesome. So like I got a free master's degree basically. And so it was kind of like God saying, you focus on studying and then you can do well. You don't have to worry about money or anything. And I'll take care of you guys. And so that was like all these kids were drinking. Yeah, man. Yeah. That was a job. Right. Party pooper, professional party pooper, Jase. I had a good great job. Right. I remember some conversations with the resident directors. Oh, sure. Yeah, man, I was like the old man on the block Friday night, I just wanted to drink my green tea and watch Blue Bloods on CBS, you know? Oh, wait a minute. You didn't wear like a tucked in collared shirt, did you? No, mine was not cut. It was tucked out. It was untucked. Okay, at least. Cause like that guy is such a pain in the butt. Yeah, yeah. No, I wasn't that guy. I was actually pretty cool. I thought I was pretty cool. Yeah, you weren't good at R.D. You weren't like a tool. Right, right, right, right, right. I just remember this one too yelling at me. Oh, how much did you have to drink? You know you were 19, zero? Yeah. And everybody knows, anybody knows the R.D. Right. Oh, yeah, of course, of course. But yeah, man, spring semester, I got a 4.0. First time I got a 4.0 on any collegiate level. That fall and fall, I got a 3.93 holding it down. And then my last semester before I graduated, I got a 3.6 and finished with a 3.824. So. With a bunch of physiology and all kinds of tough courses. Right, man. That's what we did. That's what we did. And just to touch on the physiology course, Dr. Forrequiz, she's the professor there. She's really tough. Long story short, her husband works at Duke's Medical School, Duke University Medical School in Durham. And so when she took over the program, there were complaints from the medical schools at Duke that students were coming in and not prepared for physiology like they should be. And so she says, well, what would you do different? And they were given her ideas and those ideas she used to like transform the course. And so it was really hard, bro. Like we had to, like, this is the way she used to do her exams. Like, you know, she'd have a slide when she's lecturing or whatnot. And she's just talking. Anything she says is fair game. Anything. And so when it came to the exams, how she does it is like the average, the base average is a B. And then one standard deviation above that was like one grade level above. So like an A. Was she grade on a curve? Yeah, yeah, man. Oh, I hate that. That's not fair. Yeah, it was tough though. Like, so we'd have an average of 65, 72, but if you've got a 72 or 65, you got a B. So I had never experienced that in my life. It was stressful, but it got me through, man. She really prepared me. Cause like you said, I was so weak in it. When I went to Fayetteville and physiology, my weak became my strength. The stuff started to make sense, you know. A whole lot more sense. Reno specifically, I struggled so badly with them. I didn't understand like reabsorption and secretion and the pumps and the directions are going. You know, if you don't understand that, it's over. You have to understand that first. And so I had a hard time, you know, metabolic acidosis, all that stuff. I had a really hard time. When I went to state, it made sense. I was able to grind me down and understand it. And like, even in PA school here, when I was Rutgers, you know, when I was taking physiology, it was just kind of like review, just review. Yeah. So speaking of review, just real quick. That was a monumental part of the story that I hope people can kind of like pay attention to. It was like, you had this weakness in physiology and that's kind of what started your whole downward spiral. The first time you were in PA school, right? Right. So then somehow you found this master's of physiology that it's not like a research master's. It was more like a, basically like a post-bac trying to get people into medical schools. Correct. You know? Because this professor that taught physiology there, like her husband taught at Duke medical school, and he basically said, prepare my students better for physiology through your program. Yes. So the whole thing was designed basically as a pre-medical thing. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And that's where you ended up excelling. Absolutely. Absolutely. You hit around with those, bro. And like I said, I was going to go on class trying to go to PT school, PA school, med school, vet school, all over. Yeah, it was a big pre-med thing. Right. It was a big pre-med thing. And it was a pretty solidly known program for what I was told at least. It got me where I wanted to go. So I have no complaints, but. I'd say. You know, I remember graduating, you know, we graduated, it was during COVID. That's the other thing. I didn't, I forgot to mention, I was in class during COVID. So everything was online and all that. And just adjusted to that. But I graduated in May of 2021, you know, we graduated at the stadium outside, you know, social distancing and all that and my parents came. So they were super excited. So I was happy, man. It was nice to have a formidable accomplishment after what I had been through, you know. And I've now had what I needed to take the step forward to get into PA school. I had the golden ticket, which was that master's degree. I actually had diploma. And so. Physiology. Yes, in physiology. So now it's time to apply. Yes, yes, sir, yes, sir. So now it's time to apply again, you know. And like you said, with schools is interesting. So this time when I was applying, it was kind of like that 3.0 minimum was just like, I wasn't really looking for that. I was looking for more schools that were accepting, you know, master's degrees and, or looking at your most recent 40 to 60 credit hours. And that's what I advise people to do. Like if your GPA was like mine, like on the rocks, look at people to look at your most recent credit hours. Like apply strategically, apply smartly. Don't apply just to like a hundred programs. How did you find programs that did that? Just research, bro, being a bulldog. I had a lot of friends like on Instagram and Mike, you know, they may went to a PA program. They say, oh, there's look at their website. And I would always look at the website, you know, just to confirm. But just being a bulldog man, looking on, you know, websites, I think Reddit, I found a bunch of schools that did that and confirmed. And it was like really nice. Somebody posted a picture of it. And I just went to each school to see if they fall through with it. So I have like a nice list of schools, man. And it was just really nice. Rutgers came into the picture because Rutgers did not have any like, you know, thing where they would look at your most recent credit hours, but they had this thing called a letter of explanation, meaning you need at least a 3.2 undergrad. If you don't have a 3.2, write this letter of explanation basically saying, why you don't have a 3.2? What happened? And what you did to like bring your grades up and why we should accept you. And so like I'm talking to you, my friend, I literally wrote maybe like a page and a half, two page, single space letter explaining everything I did through. Literally. Started from the beginning, told them, then, you know, leave out need for all schools. You know, PA schools are gonna see all your grades and stuff. So trying to hide something isn't gonna work. And so I was just honest with them. I said, this is me. This is what I've been through. This is why you should give me an opportunity. And applied, Rutgers was like near the top of my list. So I made sure to get my stuff in early. That's another thing I emphasize with people. If there's a school you really wanna get into, apply early, get your stuff early into them. Plus they didn't require the GRE, which was nice. That's nice. It's really nice. And so applied, heard that, made it through like the first wave of screening of applications. And then I got invited for interviews. And I've really early September of 2021. Super excited. It was through Zoom, cause I think they were still doing COVID guidelines or whatnot, which was nice. And so, you know, preparing myself, you know, I did the interview from home, had a suit and tie, you know, tried to dress the part and whatnot, and practiced and, you know, I was interviewed by two. One was actually my advisor. She's one of, she's my advisor now and another faculty member and a third year PA students. And they interviewed me and out the gate, bro. You know, of course it comes up. What happened that met with this? And I just told them, man, listen, I wasn't ready for PA school. I messed up, I made a mistake. I went to get a master's in physiology to prove. And I literally said this, that I'm not a joke or I'm not damaged goods. I wanna be taken seriously. I said, I didn't make it through with the first time and that's on me, but I'm ready now. I just need another opportunity. And I hope my master's degree helps display that. And it was crazy, man. It went well. I thought it went well, but you never know. They told us like, you know, we usually accept people right out of the gate. You know, you're on the wait list or we just out of the cloud deny you. And I think four people at that time at that time had been accepted. And I'm thinking to myself, well, I applied to like 12 more schools. So I'll at least get on the wait list. And literally bro, like probably a week later I got home from work. My phone rang. It was like a seven, three, two area code. I recognized it from New Jersey. I picked up the phone. It was Professor Matthew McQuillan. He's one of our professors here at the program asked how I was doing. I said, no, I'm doing well. I hope everything's okay. And he literally said, well, you know, I hope this good news serves you well. We just wanted to offer you a seat and the Rutgers program for starting at 1.85. And it was just shocking, bro. And he said something wrong. I'm like, well, you know, I told him, I said, you know, yeah, a thousand applicants. It's a top tier program. I said, I'm happy I got in. I'm just kind of wondering how he said, well, you know, we read your story. He said, you really put in the work because there's not a lot of people that would have bounced back like you did. He said, at least what I think. He said, you put in the work, you deserve it. He said, and you're just a testament of what happens when you keep doing the right things. And so that was nice, bro. It was a lot of hard work. You know, my parents were super excited. I was just elated, man. I never thought it would be possible again, man. You know, but I just kept working hard and had to fake. You know, I couldn't see it. I just kept believing and started school at Rutgers August, 2022. Did well the first year. It's a three year program for people who don't know. So after the first year, we, first years get their summer off, which is nice. Came back last August, went through the whole second year, had our pendant ceremony, which is like white coat ceremony last month, February 23rd. And I'm currently two and a half weeks from finishing my first, first rotation at Family Med. And you made it all the way through didactic now. You're talking about it. Oh, yeah, bro. Yeah. And like you said, it's funny. Like somebody told me this quote, I never forgot it. What you learn in the valley, those tools will take you to the mountaintop, you know, you got to go through the valley and learn some lessons. Because the mountaintop cannot teach you lessons for valley games. But what you learn when you go through the valley, those tools and those lessons, they help you reach the mountaintop. And that's what happened, man. I learned how to study. Like even though methods didn't work out, I took from that, you know, tools, what did work? What was effective? How did you study? And so instead of trying to figure out how to study like I was at methods at Rutgers, I could just hit the ground running out the gate. Yeah. You knew what you were doing. You were confident. Right, right, right. This wasn't like my first rodeo. And I made sure that. And it was a much smoother transition, bro. Much smoother. Yeah, you probably felt like one of those students that like knew how to study from like age six and they've just been doing the same thing over and over again. And they just always been perfect. You're like, all right, but now I'm at your level. Now I know what I'm doing. Exactly. Right. I felt like the playing field was even now. So it's nice, man. But it's all the way through didactic, bro. As you know, that's like the rigorous part. And now I'm in the rotations part. It's kind of funny. I described the rotations. It's like when you're playing a video game and you can't get past a certain level. So you keep losing and dying and losing. But then you finally get past it, but there's a level above. And so you're playing the game. You've never been on this level. So you just kind of got to figure things out as you go. And that's kind of what rotations are. It's way different than second year. I like it. Don't get me wrong. It's just different. It's like that. Your entire career essentially, but like especially those first few years and second year or I guess clinical year is basically like your first year of practice, right? It's like you're starting to like get hands on. You're trying to figure things out because nothing in real life is like the book. I believe, oh yeah. Totally, totally, totally. Once in a while. And then sometimes you run into it and you're like, oh, I remember that on a slide like three years ago. Right, right, right. It's really gratifying. And then you tell the soup doc and they're like, wait, how do you know that? You're like, I don't know. I just remember it. But most of the time it's just like, it's just such a different beast in practice. So you're right. It's like you're at the very beginning of the video game. That's where all your progress is made is at the beginning. And then you're just kind of probably after a few years of practice, you're kind of coasting. Unless you switch specialties, then you're back at the beginning again. Yeah, man. My first week of my education was like, my head was spinning, like spinning, you know, between trying to learn how to like put orders in and I got to write my note. And then the medicine in general, like, you know, family means everything as I'm sure you know. So it's not like you're just a gasser. That's my first job. Yeah, you've got to know everything. And so I've seen a little bit of everything. And it's just like, I got to recall this. Like, you know, and so it's tough, man. That first week I was just like, I just had to take a deep breath, man. Cause like, like I say, it was totally different. It's totally different. It's a different beast. It is. And you touched on like, not even knowing the medicine and not even like being good with patients, but like the actual rubber meeting the road, how do I put this thing into the computer? What dose do I use? And then how do I put in that dose? Oh, and by the way, now their insurance isn't covering it. So now I need a second, third, fourth and fifth choice. And then I also have to figure out which one of them can afford things, which one can't. If they can't, how do I use a coupon card? There's so much stuff. Yeah, bro. But like once you know it and you realize that how the system works, then you're more. Right. Whatever. Correct. But it takes a long time. It's more. Oh yeah, oh yeah, man. Epic, the program we use to like, they'll put medications and stuff, our electronic program. That alone was a learning curve in itself. On top of it. I heard Epic has their own trainers because it's so complicated. It is, bro, it's bad. And like we had, so like this is the only thing I didn't like, we had like two weeks of clinical skills and we had Epic training, which was online, but the only way to learn Epic, man, is to really get on there and do it yourself. To use Epic. Right. Training is not going to do anything. So when I went in from our first day of rotation, it was kind of like, I've never used Epic in my life. And so it was steep, bro. Like, you know, how not to create too many notes or a double note, like you said, ordering dosages, putting in orders, referrals, all that stuff, it, bro. That first week, I'm telling you, I was just like, man, I don't know. This is tough. Yeah. Like I said, with time, it gets better with time. That's the only- It gets better with time. Only solution. Nah, you're not supposed to be comfortable in school ever. Right. Like if you're comfortable, you're doing something wrong, that means something bad is coming. Right. You can't be comfortable. If it's your first job, it's going to be like that for like a year or two. And then, you know, if you stay in the same field, then it just becomes just chill. Right. You know, but you got to put in that one. Right. Absolutely. That's the, I think that goes in anything, bro. Whether it's free PAs, your MPA school, or your PAC, you always have to put in that work if you want to see results. That's the constant. But it's worth it. It's so worth it. Yeah. Especially like if, I don't know if you're someone that practices gratitude, but like if you actually take a moment and like see how far you've come and something that would have been really, really hard and intimidating, becomes less hard intimidating, it's so gratifying. Like, so for instance, like my first job, I remember my soup doc, my supervising physician who owned the practice, Dr. Roger Belly, he would just like prattle off to a scribe. Oh yeah, we'll do this, this many milligrams for this many days. And I was just thinking like, man, this is like something I would look up, like something I would Google or up to date. Like how do you just prattle this stuff off? Right. And then like a year later, you're finding yourself doing the exact same thing to a pharmacist, without even looking at the patient for the note, you just know it. And you're like, wait a minute, wait a minute. I thought only Dr. Roger Belly knew how to do that. Yeah. And then it's just like, you're just like, man, I got it. Oh great, now what else do I need to learn before something else happens? Right. It's like, it's so gratifying, but it just, it happens with time, there's no shortcuts. Right, right. So I'll go, yes sir. But what I really wanted to come back to, a little more like nuts and bolts specifically. Okay. So like you said, the first program you were in, like, yeah, they were supportive and they obviously, the director still keeps in contact with you, wrote your recommendation letter, totally supports you, but there is no actual like, tactile nuts and bolts, how do I study skills being taught? How did you learn that? How did you go from like, this ain't working, I'm failing 15 exams, to I got a 3.9, I got this. Like what, what nuts and bolts, like actual skills did you learn to study? A lot of it just went through PA schools, kind of like trial and error, I hate using that, but that's bad, but the bad parts I had to sacrifice through PA school, right, to learn that. And so I firstly have to identify what type of learning you are. If you're auditory, that works. I have some people in my class now they're auditory learners which I'm super jealous cause I feel like that's the easier way to learn, if you can just listen. My attention span doesn't last that long. I'm a visual learner. And so colors and visual images and videos, like if I see something, I'm a big movie watcher. So if I see something, you know how you can recite a line from a movie or what not? Or, yeah, I'm a visual learner. And so that's, that's what stuck out to me. And that's how I study, use a lot of charts and colors even through my didactic year and especially my second year of PA school. That was the medicine portion of PA school. A lot of colors, like so, you know, like I said condition and I would like make it all red or blue. And then I started making the words of different colors. So like blue box with yellow lettering, you know make it vibrant and make it like bright colors or abstract colors. So it's something that's gonna stick out that you won't forget, you know it's just gonna be something you remember. That's how I study in a farm. Farmer colleges, I'm sure you know, drug, drug class, MOA, side effects, contraindications, black box morning, all that stuff. And the only way I was able to study was to make my own charts, I would and I would just make columns for the words I just said and like just make them different colors. It's the only way they got me through, man. Cause there's so many drugs in a farm. You know this. How did that work exactly? So let's say you have like a class of drugs. Let's say, I don't know, like MS drugs or something. I still remember my acronym, but let's just say you have five MS drugs. You made them all different colors or you make them all green or something. And then when you get to the test, you just remember the green or how does that work? So let's say, let's say fluoroquinolones. For example, I was studying that earlier. So fluoroquinolones, we can use those for different infections. I paint UTIs or whatnot. And so- It's pro-oxycin, o-oxycin. It's pro-oxycin, right. Neurious, yep. ADEs, you know, this is really abstract, but tendon rupture, you know this of course, obviously. And so like I said, I'll have a column. I'll say, okay, let's do drug class. And so I have drug class and I'll write fluoroquinolones. And I'll organize it on the computer where it's like writes down, where it's like bigger. And so I'll do that. And then I'll put drugs. So everything, all the fluoroquinolone drugs and just list them. And then next I'll be like indications where they use for, you know, if there's something specific, I'll bold it or put this specific drug. But if they're all the same, I'll be like, okay, it's used for so-and-so, so-and-so, so-and-so. And then next I'll go to my contraindications or side effects. And then I'll put all the side effects in one and contraindications and the black box one. And then I'll have a miscellaneous section, anything that doesn't fit in the rest that they may want us to. And I'll just make a column. I will make the font small because we have an iPad, and we use iPad in our program. So I could always, so you know what not. And then I will make the next wave of drugs under it. And then I do another set of drugs and I may make it blue, blue and white. So the first one, like my fluoroquinolones would be like yellow and black, yellow background with black words. And then the second one would be like blue background with white words. And so I would just study it bro and circle, make notes and study it repeatedly until it grain in my brain. And it was just like- And it was just like the colors and the sizes that would just like help you because like different groups, you would make different colors. Yes. And then maybe different categories and make different sizes. Yes, that's the staple. And if there's something important, like I'd make it bold and I may make the font like 32. Like you need to know this. This is important. So that's the first thing you see when you're studying like several times. Right, right. So you just know it's big. Yeah. Right. Or they emphasize, they said, or they'll say this is going to be on the exam. You need to know this drug or know what this does. The font's huge. You know, it's just like- They go nice and Redman syndrome. Right, right, right. Like know this, know this. Yeah, everybody knows that one. Right. The other thing I'll say, they used a lot of alternative resources as well. Like a little bit of osmosis. Sketchy Med was outstanding for microbiology. I don't know if people have used it. I'm sure people have heard of it. It was outstanding for them in microbiology. It was top notch. Literally all our class used it for microbiology. Amazing. Amazing. Very visual. Yes, yes. Again, I'm a visual learner. So of course, it catered to me. Love it. They have Osmosis Med. They have Sketchy Med. They have Picmonet. I had a friend, she used Picmonet. Picmonet was okay. But if you want short and quick, that's more of the way to go. But if you want thorough and detailed, I guess you would be preference. But I didn't use those at first time, bro. It was just like slides or whatnot. And so like wash and all that stuff. I didn't use any alternatives. I was just trying to go by the slides. And I think that hurt me as well, trying to not go by the box. Right. Not using enough. Yeah, it's interesting what like alternative resources people are drawn to based on their learning style. So you like Sketchy and stuff. I don't know if you know who AK Lectures is. Yeah, I've used his, yes. Yes. Oh, him, I used all the time, but he's more about lists. Right. And I think I might be like a reading learner. Like where you like, it's all about language, less about, you know, just like colors and sizes. So I really gravitated towards him because he would just make it like as concise as possible. But it was all like in a sentence form. He didn't really draw much. And that's where I learned all my stuff is from that guy. Right. You know, so it's like everyone uses different resources. Just try a few of them out. See what works for you. Absolutely. It's funny you said AK Lectures. I totally forgot about him. That guy's awesome. He wants you to talk about that. Yes, sir. When I was in my master's program at NSU State, my master's was a physiology program. I used a lot of his videos for biochemistry and physiology because you said he made it. He got to the nitty gritty. He made it short and concise. And I would literally copy everything he wrote on the board. Like, I don't know, he's a paper. Literally, I had the time. I would literally copy it. And it just made things like a lot easier, bro. He's great. He's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, I'll never forget like the kidney. I think the nephron is one of the most complicated like physiology things we learn. And I just remember it was like a really like nice, like fall warm day. And I was just like, I don't get this. And it was a lunch break. I took a walk around campus and I just like listened to AK Lectures and I got it. I listened to the same like eight minute video, probably like, I don't know, eight times for that whole hour. And then by the time that hour was done, I was like, I got this. You're right. You know, just on repeat. He's amazing. On loop. I think Ninja Nerds and that one, his videos are a little long though, but I heard they're really good. I heard they're very good. There's so many resources. There's so many, man, endless. So different. So you're really playing on your, your study style, visual stuff. You're organizing everything kind of the same way. So it's uniform, but then you got things like broken up by colors. Yes, sir. And you just did the same thing with everything and you just stuck. Yes, sir. That's cool. So that's, would you do that one for every class or that was just pharmacology. And then for like physiology, did you do just something different? For form, I made my own charts. And then for everything else, it wasn't organized quite the same way. It was more like everything was in a box together. Like, so the condition, the signs and symptoms, the diagnostic and the treatment was all in one box. But I still made changes of colors and made it vibrant and whatnot. It wasn't more so columns. It was just more so like every, every symptom was in its own box. But I mean, I was still able to like keep everything straight and whatnot. But the color changing did not change. I made sure I made all my study guys in color. That's the first thing I did before I even started. So interesting. That's something I've never tried or thought of, but I've seen people do it. Yeah, man. The only way I could keep the information straight, you know, when I was in Fayetteville, I got to study the slide. It's all black and white. And so I get this mixed up with that and that mixed up with this. So I had to figure out a way, not only to study, but study effectively where I can keep everything straight and I can retain it. And that was my biggest thing. And there's so many different ways to do this. I never would have thought of that. I never would have thought of just making things different colors. Right. It made all the difference in the world for you. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. There you are. Done with didactic. So I mean, testament, it works, right? Right, right. And I broke no fits in. Yeah, exactly. So that's definitely something I wanted to come back to. It was like specifically, what did you do study-wise? So that definitely worked. What else you got? We got your whole story down. I'm just trying to look through our list of stuff. This was a lie, obviously we'd be looking at comments, but we're not. Right, right. This is one that I kind of wanted to come back to. So you said you initially wanted to be a doctor. You wanted to go to medical school. Yeah. And then as always happens, it always happens with a girl. Some girls like, hey, you should try PA. And you're like, sure, I'll do anything you say. And so naturally you went with PA. So like, what was that? Was it just the girl? Or was it something actually specific about the career? More so career. Like she, like the girl I was dating at the time, she was just kind of like, we know do it for me. We just do it for me. And I'm trying to be a good boyfriend. Okay, fine. But literally when I did research it over, I really did like what I see. Cause I'm like, wow, you can switch specialties like just because, you know, and medical school, you know, you go through residency and then you're kind of in whatever you went to residency for, there's no switching. I'm like, so I can go to a family man. And if I get bored, I can go to ortho. And if I get bored of that, I can go to a little like really just like that. And yeah, and then, you know, I'm looking at the lifestyle and all that. And I was just like, wow, this is nice. And then school's not that long. I was just like, hey, I've been missing out. I said, but this is what I want to do though. This is what I want to do. I knew it would be hard. I had talked to a PA's before I went to school and they all said the same thing. Girls will say, I'd rather deliver a hundred babies than go to PA school. Guy said, you know, like, yeah, it's like the thing, you know, it's the hardest thing. You never want to do it again. You're happy you did it, but you won't ever want to do it again. There's no way in the world. And so I knew it would be challenging, man. But like I said, I've always loved medicine. And I just thought it was the perfect fit. You know, by that time I was like 28. And so med school would be like, I'd be like 36, 37. I'm like, I kind of wish I wronged them 36 right now, but you get what I'm saying. I was like. It worked out. Right, it worked out. I was like, you know, I just liked the field, man. I just liked everything they had to offer. I did. Yeah, it's funny. Like in another life, you could have been like in residency right now or maybe done, but at the same time, would you have gotten there? Would you have made it through? Would you have been this and that? Like, you don't know. Right. You don't know. And you definitely wouldn't be as confident in your abilities and like all the experiences you have, you wouldn't have two masters. It's just like happened differently. You're right for everybody. Everybody's timeline is different. That's another thing I learned. Absolutely. Man, that's, that's what a heck of a story. I appreciate it, bro. That is seriously what a heck of a story. It's been a long, go ahead, I'm sorry. Oh, no, no, you go ahead. You go ahead. I was just gonna say it's been a long road, bro. Learned a lot, learned a lot about myself, you know, for sure. But I wouldn't, I wouldn't trade it, you know? I think everything happens for a reason. You don't understand back then why, you know? I'm not sure I still understand, but I just know I'm here and alongside graduating, that's me. So coming in hot. Yep. World better be ready. Yeah. James is coming in with a lot of experience and a lot of confidence. Yes, sir. That's awesome. So you're 36 in P.A. Yes. We're almost everybody, if we look at the numbers is below 25, 26 or so. And just about everybody's a blonde-haired, blue-eyed female, 78% or so. How was that? You know, how was it being a little different from almost everybody in your class, age-wise, demographic-wise, everything-wise? I think we got a few brunettes in there. Yeah, just like two or three. I was doing it. Yeah, so we already made an exception. Right, right, right. P.A. school's a lot different now, you know? Different mindset I came in with all business, you know, I live here playing the games or whatnot. My first time around, I was like around the average, you know, I was 26 when I started, 26, 26, 26. That's about right. That's about right around. So it was a little different. We had a few older people. I remember thinking, man, they're old. And then, I was like on the back end, I think I'm like four of the oldest in the class. It's interesting, man, you got people from all over the place in our class, like somebody that I got from Oregon, we got a few from California and all that. But I will say like me being 36, like I just don't have a lot in common with a lot of my classmates, because you know, their stuff, even at 27, 28, I don't do that. You know, you just grow. You just grow up. You're just trying to like party and go to the bars on Fridays and get together. Yeah, that's not me, bro. I did all that. Right, I'm done with that, that part of my life. Which is cool, it's cool. And so it's just a little different. I'm actually the class representative of my class. And so like if somebody has an issue or wants to request something, they come to me. Like you're like an RD all over again. Yeah, it's like the RD. Oh, man, it never stops. Yeah, but like it's pretty still, you know, high classes, man. People talk and all that type of stuff. Yeah. So just, you know, from my perspective, I can see the immaturity. I'm like, wow. You know, come 36 and I'm looking at, everybody helps in our classes. Like since we're younger than most, or most of the people. And of course it's mostly females. It's just, okay, this is what we're doing. All right. So it's it. Yeah. It's all right, man. I have like one or two people I'm real cool with. I'm nice to everybody. Don't get me wrong. But like I said, we're just in different places in our lives. And I kind of, you know, I'm all business mode. I want to do what I got to do so I can start my career. But it's interesting, bro. Like being on the other side, it's just, it's just funny, you know, when you grow and you look back and you're like, I used to do stuff like that. And now I'm like, why are you doing that? Like, or they may ask you something that's like, no, I'm good. I'm not doing that. I'm not going out on a Friday night. I'm not going out for anything. Like I'm going to go chill at home and watch sports center. That's what I'm going to do. Yeah. Like I want to finish this grad school. I don't want anything getting in the way. This is what we're doing. This is what we have to do. Right, right, right, right, right, right. Absolutely. And by the way, if I froze, don't worry. Streamer just keeps recording. So just pretend I didn't freeze. Cause I know you froze. All right. No problem, bro. Am I frozen for you? You are, you are. Okay. Yeah, you're frozen for me too. Cause that, I'm not really sure why it just happens, but it just, it still works. Everything's still recording. So treat it as if it's normal. Okay. I think we're good. But yeah. So yeah. I definitely understand the age thing. I was certainly older than most people in my class. I wasn't 36. I'm still not 36, but I was definitely older. I was married at the time when I was going through school and like just totally different life path. Oh yeah. And so what else was like basically still like an under, an undergrad, which I mean, that's the age of everything was appropriate for them. They were also a lot smarter than I was. So they could, you know, go out and do their thing and still be okay. And I, I couldn't say. So I definitely, definitely understand that. Any like big main advice to one PrePA students, PrePA applicants to specifically anyone looking for either like extra consideration, their low GPA, whatever the case may be, or they're looking for a second chance like you, you know, like what is, because it seems hopeless, right? Like it's like, I'm never going to be able to get my grades up enough. Statistically, I'm not going to get in. Like that's where a lot of people are in that boat. What do you have to say to those people as someone who came out on top of that? Um, you know, just, I think for us just know, you know, who starts with you, believe in yourself, know what you got to do. Know it's not going to be easy. So be willing to put in the work, but it is possible. I think the first thing is, you know, you know, this course, grades are like the number one thing. Like I had endless amount of extra, you know, PRP, I came to healthcare out at PC hours. PC hours, yeah. I've heard about that man. Yeah. And so at CNA, you know, like close to 8,000 working, I did an internship at Wake Forest School of Medicine and I volunteered at the Muscular District Association summer camp and I did all these types of things and whatnot, but my GPA was still low and like schools are just are not going to look past that unless you bring something extra to the table. That's just the reality everyone. And so I got to get me getting the master's degree. I think first off, you need to retake all classes you got to see in, especially, you know, like the undergrad courses because that's what most PA schools or if not all of them way or they kind of measure everybody on is the undergrad level. And so, you know, what I was told is you retaking classes show you're serious about this. You're not just willing to accept what you got and whatnot and hoping that they'll set you in because that's just wishful thinking. So retaking classes, no matter how many they are, you know, if you get a C or below that's the rule of thumb is you need to retake it. And the other thing is like the master's degree. That's, but that's individualized, I'll say. I needed it. I kind of like to describe that as like the Fast and Furious movies. You know, there'll be that scene where people will be driving or somebody's driving where it's Vin Diesel, Paul Walker, Rest in Peace or somebody and, you know, the racing they're far behind everybody. The finish line is all the way up front. They think they're going to lose the race and then they press that button with the nitro and it just like, yeah, the gas all the way to the front. That's kind of what the master's degree was for me. I didn't want to spend like years and years retaking community college courses, you know, trying to prove myself. And so that's why I went and took that leap and took that master's degree to jump, start me at the front. Cause a lot of people are applying to PA programs with two, some even three degrees. You know, it's getting even more competitive every year. There's a handful of people that have master's degrees coming in in my class. A few with public health and whatnot. So it's getting more competitive. It's becoming more common just because people are looking for something to separate themselves from the pack. And so that's what I would advise all the pre-PAs to find something that makes you unique, unique. If that's GPA, if you have to go get a master's, yes, it's more money, but you have to look at the end goal. And then the other thing is again, apply strategically. I was actually told this by a friend of mine. She said, this don't apply to like 44 schools or a hundred schools or whatnot. Look at the school, look at it closely and see if it fits you, you know. A lot of PA like the university of Washington MedEx out in Seattle, the thing about them is, and I was told this is they hit on a lot of good students because they look past the GPA, you know. They just don't look at the GPA. They look at other things that they bring to the table. And they've even told me like, I know the head of diversity chair out there, Deithion, he's a great guy. He told me this, he said, a lot of PA programs every year they miss out on a student. So it'll be outstanding PAs. They may not have like the 4.0 GPA, but they miss out on them because that's all they look at, you know. There's more to being a PA than grades is way more to it, you know. Bedside manner, the ability to communicate with people. That's stuff you can't teach, you know. But I feel like a lot of PA programs are stuck strictly on grades, which is important. I'm not trying to downplay that. But there's also other aspects to the application that makes somebody attractive and will make them a great PA going forward. One of my professors, Dr. R, she straight up told me, she said, you know, we don't want students that are 4.0 students because if all you guys were 4.0 students, we wouldn't have a job, you know. We want students that have to work a little bit harder because therefore they need us or whatnot. And that's what we're here for. So, yeah, just look at that schools that look outside the box of what I'm saying in a nutshell. And they're out there, like if you want me to see those charts, the charts I use, bro, or the schools that I saw that would look at people, you know, their most recent credit hours, most recent 40 to 60 credit hours, or look outside the box, I can see that. Just let me know. Well, yeah, I think that's what I would do. I think the downside to it, I'm single, I don't have any kids. And so the downside is you gotta be willing to move everywhere because there's only a limited amount of schools I could apply to, like 12. And so like if you're married or have a family, that might be an issue, obviously. But if you, you know, you don't have anything or anybody discuss it, if you're not married or you don't have any kids, that's something you may want to think about. Some people, you know, they're picky. They don't want to move outside this geographic area. And I've seen it on these groups, man. They're like, you know, I want to go to school only in Florida and all of a sudden. And then like, they don't move to the apartments in Florida. It's like, well, what are you going to do? Like just keep applying. Like there's like, yeah, you gotta, you gotta, people gotta face reality. Like you're looking at something that's between a two and 5% admission rate overall. So you're trying to limit yourself even more to like point one now by going by like only a few states. I don't understand it. You can't. You just, I do get the motivation. I want to be my mom and dad, blah, blah, blah, but like, bro, you know, just the numbers don't line up with that. We got definitely, if you do have those charts, we can definitely like make a PDF out of them or I could just put the info in the video notes. I'm sure people would love to see that. So 100% email me that. All right, my man. So one thing we kind of started touching on a little bit before that I just wanted to discuss with you. I don't know if any of y'all have written or have read my book that right in the beginning, it says why this book was written. Essentially it was to give people a chance that would not usually otherwise have a chance at PA school, low GPA folks. And then I also went a lot into the demographics of PA programs. And this was a few years ago. They are changing, thank goodness. But a lot of demographics, like we mentioned previously was almost everybody like 70 plus percent was basically young, 25 or so or younger, suburban middle to upper class Caucasian female. I took it upon myself to wanna change that and give other people a chance. There's like in our national zeitgeist, there's a huge conversation about diversity. It means so many different things to so many different people in medicine. I keep saying over and over again in medicine specifically it's important. It's specifically important because not that you have to be the exact same demographics as your patients, but it helps in specific areas. Like specifically about language or culture. If you're in a culture, you understand a culture that somebody perhaps does not, you're better able to communicate with patients from that culture who might not have good experiences with medicine. Right? So I'm Russian, I speak Russian. Russians are some of the most annoying people to treat on the face of the earth because they're always looking for a solution that's not there and they don't trust you either, even if you're Russian. But if you speak Russian, it helps. And they're like, all right, damn, I'll take the stupid drugs and I'll stop eating my, you know, whatever, my super hot soup, which is why they all have gr. But anyway, that's just a very, very specific example. But I just wanted to give you the floor and have you talk about it as well. Yeah, man. Well, thank you for obviously creating this platform or being an openly willing to talk about that. So I tip my hat to you, Boris, my friend. It always helps to have somebody up in the Caucasian descent, I will say, that represents the majority to speak up on that. I think that makes up a lot of difference as well. In terms of, for me, diversity is obviously a big portion of it. I would say it goes like white females, white males, black females, and then black males are like 2% of all PAs in the country, literally. Honestly, that even seems high to me. Right, it might be lower. I've never met one. Yeah, exactly. And you know what? Right, I've never met one. I didn't meet one. I got the Rutgers, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, literally. Like everybody that goes by letters of recommendation. Yeah. Before I applied, when I got into Memphis and Rutgers were all white, bro. So, you know, that was just the reality. Yeah, that was just the reality. That's literally by statistics, the reality. Yeah, it's the reality. You hit it on the nose, like patients feel more comfortable. They have to see somebody that looks like them that they can relate to. At least a little bit, to some degree. Yeah, of course. Last week, it was funny you said that. Last week I walked in, I was taking care of my patients, an annual physical, pretty basic, walked in. Guy looked at me, said, you know, who are you? I said, you know, my name's James. I'm a PhD student. I'm rotating here. I'm helping to take care of you today. And he got excited, man. I didn't know what was wrong. He was just like, man, I've been to this office, you know, for its number of years, all I've seen is like white males or white females. So you're the first black male PA I've ever seen. I said, well, I'm not, you know, I'm a student. He said, it doesn't matter. Like, you're going to be a real, yeah. He's like, this is awesome, bro. He said, you're going to help a lot of people. You're basically a unicorn. He said, keep up with the work, because people like me, we need people like you. And that made me feel good, you know, especially after a tough day, but that's just a micro-scot room of, what a lot of people that look like me or any ethnicities are feeling, cause it's just tough, man. I look at a lot, like on Instagram, I'll look at different pages of different PA programs, you know, friends I've made through Instagram and they're graduating class. And I, you know, this is the first time I picked up one. How many people look like me? And bro, it's kind of like, like it's kind of like a gallon of vanilla, or a half gallon of vanilla ice cream with a black speck. That's what it reminds me of. It's just, but only one. It's just one, but it's right. That's the best. It's not even like a whole ice cream cone with like a few sprinkles. Literally one sprinkle. Literally one. It's like, it's that rare. It's that rare, bro. In my class, we have like four or five females, black females, which we do a good, but it's like me and my boy, John, we're the only black males. And what's crazy, we started out with four, there was two others, one left after probably like six weeks. I don't know the full details on that. And another guy, he actually had to decelerate to the class below us. So he's not like getting out of school or anything. He's just in a different class now. I think he got caught COVID or something, but it's just unfortunate, but like it started out, we had four of us. And then after like the first year, we came down to two. And so it was crazy, bro. It's really unfortunate. I don't know like, you know, how we can combat it or whatnot, but it's tough, bro. Helping people get in, bringing people up. Bringing people up, man. That's why I'm open. That's it. What's more open, man? Like people, I'm an open book, you know? I can't tell you the amount of people who messaged me on Instagram randomly. I don't know who they are. Hey, I was recommended to contact you cause somebody told me your story. I'm in a similar situation or I'm a black male, a black female looking to get in. Do you have any advice? I'm an open book, man. Cause people helped me. I didn't get here by accident. I mean, yeah. Sounds like a lot of people helped. That's awesome. A lot of hard work, but a lot of people helped me get here. Black and white. And so like, I also recognize more diversity needs to be attributed to the profession. And so of course I'm going to help people to look out, look at that look like me, but really anybody, bro. But, you know, the profession, I wish I don't know if there's like more groups. I know I'm in PAs of color, position assistance of color, which is like a great group. It's like a group on Facebook. It's like a national group. And they do a great job of trying to bring diversity, you know, talking to admissions boards about talking to our group and making us feel comfortable. Cause, you know, to be honest with you, bro, that's another thing that I've known to discourage is people that look like me from applying. Like, we just can't apply anywhere, you know? Oh, what do you mean? So like, there was a school in Idaho. I can't remember what it was. I know Montana was like Rocky Mountain Community College, like a PA school. There was one in Montana, there was one in Idaho. And I was considering applying there. Cause I'm like, you know, I'm willing to go anywhere. And my mom, she had told me at the time, she said, look, I understand this is your dream and stuff, but I don't feel comfortable with you going out that far. And so, yeah, she's like, it's a mill of nowhere. There's not a whole lot of people that look like you. I've heard a lot of stuff, anti-government, but all this type of stuff. Like, I just don't want you to like wander in the wrong place. You don't have any family out there. Something happens to you and somebody may not even know or say anything. We wouldn't even know for years. We wouldn't even know. So, you know, not in Idaho and Montana, but like deep South, I kind of marked all those schools out. I've been considering- South Carolina and below? Yeah, man, South Carolina and below. I was considering Mississippi calls at one time at marked out really quick. You know, I think Harding University was like my last school of choice when I applied before I got into Rutgers. That's located in Arkansas. Yeah, like that was like the last of the last. And cause, you know, you want to be comfortable with me. I mean, that's just a reality of being a minority. It's not just going to PA school. It's making sure that, you know, you have the support and you feel safe. You know, you don't have to worry about any trouble or anything that brought happening to you. One of my classmates, she says she knows a girl. She was Asian of Asian descent and she was out in some schools, I think in Montana or Idaho, out West, and said there was no support. The faculty kind of gave her the cold shoulder. They didn't support her. It was like, she told me this out there. And said, the girl was thinking about just like leaving school and starting all over, you know, just to get out of that environment. And that's, you know, that's a reality of applying to PA school too. A lot of people think it's just crazy stuff, man. But you know, especially when you're a minority, you have to think about that type of stuff. You know, we have to think about that type of stuff, you know, not everybody does. And I understand that, but I know that we do. And that's just, you know, it's just a growing concern, brother. Well, it started off without making things that are more difficult on top of that. And that's, you know, some people have to think about more than others. Absolutely. Related, but somewhat, I guess unrelated. I'm actually moving to North Carolina to Raleigh area in a couple months. Are you really? Yeah. And so I've been living in upstate New York the last five years. Okay. And just recently moved to Ohio for a little bit. I'm actually in my house in New York right now. And so like, I was always dreaming about Raleigh because one, I'm just tired of New York BS, laws, behavior, just all of it. Weather, you know, and so I was always thinking like, oh yeah, down south, I want to go where it's warm. I want to go where it's a little more traditional. I want to start a family, X, Y and Z. And then I forgot about something until my Jewish friend told me, because I'm Jewish. Okay. Until my Jewish friend told me, she's like, yeah, I lived in North Carolina. There's a lot of like anti-Semitism down here. And I'm like, wait a minute. I didn't even think about that for two seconds. Cause I could just see myself like getting there, buying a house, and then they'd be like, hey, you heard he's a Jew. And then like, boom, the whole neighborhood hates me. And it's like, probably not going to happen. But at the same time, it's something you don't think about until you got to think about it. Right, absolutely. My plan was to buy the biggest American flag and the second biggest US Navy flag and just put them out front of the house. Hopefully it like counterbalances or something. I like it. I like it. Yeah, maybe he's Jewish, but he was in the Navy and he likes America. So all right, he's fine. He's fine. It sounds like a joke, but like there's people in this country that think that there's a lot of people in this country that think that. Oh, you know, moving to Jersey was like a culture shock, right? For me, cause I'm from North Carolina. And so it was kind of worse. My dad's from Hackinsett, North Jersey. And so he kept telling me like, look, it's going to be different when you go up up north, like the north of my life. He kept reiterating that, but it took me moving up here and being out here on my own to really see what he was saying. But the one thing I can appreciate is diversity, brother. Like there's so many ethnicities and stuff around here. You know, I feel like everybody has to get along cause there's so many ethnicities. There's no way you could have like a race war or something like that. Everybody just got to get along, you know? Everybody's up there. That would be a little more fairer. Right. Be a little more fairer. Like that was different than coming down south for like, Raleigh was fine. You know, I lived in Raleigh for a little bit opposite to my master. But you notice the difference. It was, there's not so much diversity and like social awareness and stuff. It's just different, you know? We have these things. I don't know if you heard the term sundown. There's like sundown towns, especially when you go like East. It's like country areas, which is like mostly Caucasian people. Oh, where you don't go out in from the sun goes down. Right, right, right. I always heard about it, like where you hear banjos, you stop and turn around. Right, right, right. You know, it's a long way out on the sticks. Oh yeah. Like in like, go East or Raleigh, you know, you started going to Clayton, Smithfield and Anger and like, even like in the Charlotte area, like Monroe. And like, I'll just say this, like there's like hardly no black people in Western North Carolina. Once you start going to Asheville and hit the nondes, like you can. No. Yeah, you know. And so, you know. I noticed that not much. Right, right, right. It's just way different brother. And so that's one thing I will say I can appreciate about the North, but that's stuff, you know, stuff like you just said about moving around. That's stuff we have to think about, man. Not everybody does. It's stuff you gotta think about. The stuff you really gotta consider is you really gotta consider it. Well, yeah, cause like, I mean, choosing a PA school or choosing where to live or whatever, there's definitely a lot to consider as a minority in any way, shape or form or as like a religious group or whatever. Like there's always considerations that probably at the end of the day, probably not going to be a big deal. Probably not going to be an issue, but it's that like 1% of times where it's like, okay, it might or may or may not sway you in any direction, but it's probably not going to be an issue. Right, right, right. Of course you hope, but yeah. There's a lot that goes into it. There is a lot. I did want to touch on the whole like, I wouldn't even say to necessarily people who like look like me or look like you going into medicine. I would actually kind of be curious from your side. So you've already been on rotation, right? And you've seen plenty of patients. Yes, good amount. Have you felt any bias, any like negativity or whatever, when like you come in as the provider, even a student provider? Not negativity, surprisingly. There wasn't one guy. I don't think he was, I think he was just, that's just his personality. That's why I was told. Some people are just dicks. Yeah, yeah. And he wasn't a dick, but you could just tell he was a little full of himself. You know, he lived in a nice area in Jersey. He lived like in Livingston. I don't know if you know of Scotch, Plains, Berkeley, Heights area, really successful, all this type of stuff. And so you just got the feeling, but it was fine. That wasn't a big deal. I would say more surprised than anything just because I'm a unicorn, not really like turned off and not to say I want to experience that. More surprised, like I walked in. So at my rotation family myth, you know, there's residents that work there as well. And all of them, they're really great. And I'm there for eight weeks. And every two weeks, their new residents rotate out. And so I just want to see four sets of residents. I'm on my third set right now. But early this week, Monday, I had my third new set of residents and like this girl looked at me cause I was like, you know, I create everybody, you know, I've never met, I'm just saying hi. And she looked at me like, I was like, hi, I'm James on the PA student here, rotate here. And she was just like, oh my God. And I was just like, is something wrong? She was just like, no, like- Or just surprised. Yeah, just surprised. So I know, it was welcome. And I went to hang up my hoodie and stuff. And I just, I remember hearing her saying, she was like, I was expecting like a little white girl. Like, I was really surprised. Because of your name, James? Because yes. I was expecting a little white girl like to come in, like when they said the PA is rotating here, I guess they didn't tell them, I'll tell her I was black. She was like, oh my God. Like, never expected that because most PA students are, you know. Like, right, 70% like you said. And so I'm more surprised than anything. I noticed with the black patients, there's a sense of pride. I haven't noticed that. You know, I walk in, they're always encouraging me. It's like, man, it's really good to have one of us in here. Like- Do they ever tell you things that they like never told anyone else? I wouldn't say that, but I feel like they're more comfortable like the language, you know. They're not- Yeah. You know, or whatnot. You know. Or whatnot. They're just down to earth. You know, it's kind of like we're talking on the street or like we're at a barbecue or whatnot, or a cook out. You know. But they never go like, they never told a doctor this for like 10 years. But now like, I'll tell you, that hasn't happened? Not yet. Not saying it will. Not saying it will. It will. It will. I did have a- You're right. Yeah, I had a patient yesterday. He was coming in for an STD panel and stuff. And he did tell me, I was like, okay, man. Like, you know, you get spring off. And he was like, yeah, you know, I told the doctor that he usually comes in here. You know that, you know, it's just a modest scream. I'm just telling you, I was out in London in Amsterdam. I had me some fun. So, you know, I'm just here. I was like, hey, man, Mike, listen to us, we don't, it's me. It's me and you. Or whatnot. So it was cool. And I was like, you didn't tell, you know, my percept right at the time. I said, you didn't tell me something. No, I didn't tell her, because you know, I didn't know what she was doing for that guy. He said, you know, that can be open to you. I was like, okay. I was like, you know, I was London. So I just tried to have a conversation and stuff. And so we talked and whatnot. So yeah, they just feel more, because you can tell the comfortability changes. They're not holding my hands and needles or walking in their shells. You can just feel it. So that's a male thing too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, sure. Especially with something like that. Oh yeah. Yeah, like, I mean, sometimes like as a solo provider, you're like, you happen to be the only one there. Like someone wants a female provider like, sorry, I'm it. But like, if somebody's coming in for a male thing, you know, they just, you know, that's their lucky day. Like there's not a lot of male PAs and you happen to be here. Right. So it's like, nobody thinks of male like men as a minority because we're not almost anywhere, but in medicine and especially as a PA. Right. We are. We are a tiny minority, like 20% or less. Yeah. You know what I mean? So that's another thing. Yes, sir. I didn't even think about that. You're absolutely right. Yeah, there's not a lot. No. You know, so it's, that part's definitely interesting. Even in my class? That part's, huh? No, go ahead. I was just saying, even in my class, there's like 12 guys. I don't know how many people. I had 44. We started out with 50. So like 25-ish percent, that's actually high. That's how long? I don't know how many we had. We had 75 people total. I didn't count, but it was a huge program. Yeah. I didn't count, but I want to say we might have like 10 guys if not last in that program. We're rare. We're rare. It's, yeah, I mean, it's like you can't be the perfect provider for every single patient. That's literally impossible. But there are advantages to being a little bit older for Dankshire, you know, being a male in a definitely female-dominated profession. It's, it comes with challenges and it comes with advantages like your male patients will appreciate it if they're coming in for a male thing. Right. That's definitely true. And also like, I want to touch on the being older thing. So, I don't know if you saw my interview with this girl Grace. No, I did. I wasn't, not yet. No. It was a little while ago. It was 22 year old blonde, you know, dad's a doctor. You know, very, very, very smart, very sweet, like basically been ready to practice medicine or her whole life. She should be doing, like if anyone should be doing this, it's her, it's in her freaking blood. Like she's been looking at EKG since she was four. You know what I mean? Okay. Her dad's a doctor. All right. So she's, she definitely belongs in medicine, 100%. One thing that I wish I would have talked to her about that I didn't in her interview is she's going to find it challenging to relate to a majority of her patients. Right. You know, because she's so young. She's so young, right? Not because she's, not because she's a girl, not because she like, you know, grew up with some money, not because X, Y and Z, but because she's so young. Right. A perfect example. I had this one patients, I can't remember what she was even there for, like everything, but she was a cure patients and she was in her 60s and she had like a little bandana type thing that she was, you know, losing her hair because of chemo. And she was so embarrassed about it, but literally what she came to see me about was like a bump on her head. And I was like, well, I gotta be able to see it, you know? And she's like, yeah, but I'm bald. And I was like, yeah, so am I. And like, I just totally glossed past it. And then she like laughs and she like just whipped it off. And she's like, all right, whatever. And like someone who's younger would have probably been really uncomfortable and like, well, man, you know, I really need to see it. I was like, yeah, I'm bald. What of it? You know, cause like I'm older and like I've been through some stuff and I lost my hair and like I've had health issues. And like, it's just even being in your 30s is such a monumental difference from being in your 20s. It is a huge advantage because you are, you can't relate to most of your patients, at least a little bit more. You're not 60, but you can. Right, right, right. You know, and I remember there was one, one of my favorite doctors ever that I described her in the ER, like there was some really bad news that had to be delivered. And the guy who was taking care of the person with the bad news was this like really handsome, young, like 30 plus 30th year old doctor. And Dr. S was like, you know what? Maybe someone with gray hair should deliver this news. And I totally got it. You know? Oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah, for sure. Certainly all the way back around to like just relating to your patients. Oh, for sure, for sure. Like I say, even in my class, you can tell the age difference. And people that are young, they just don't, you haven't lived, you're like 21, 22, still staying at home with mom and dad. You just brush out on the grad. You know, it's just like, you know, being older, like life experience, we've been through things, you've seen things, like the different mechanism. My advisor used to tell me all the time, she said, I think you're really going to like flourish in rotations because you've had life experience. Like, you know, you've had a lot, we have students here, they literally came out of undergrad, literally. They may have had enough PCI hours just to get in, patient care hours, just to get accepted. She said- That they got over the summer. Right. That they got over the summer. Like, you're who you have like, because you're able to relate, you've worked before, like you know what it takes. You know how to show up to a job on time. You know how to be professional. You know how to communicate with patients and like adversity where it would be a good situation, a bad situation. Like, you know all these things. That's something they don't have. And there's no substitution for it. There's just no substitution for it. And just one thing I wanted to touch on, like because it sounds like we're kind of beating up on these younger kids and we're not. No, we're not. Of course not. I am so jealous of them. Like it's not funny because I'm 34 on my third year of practice. If I was 24 on my third year of practice, like the world would have just been so different. Like in a good way, you know? But at the same time, like so one, if you're younger and watching this, we're not beating up on you. We're jealous. We're so jealous of where you are. It's not even fair and not even funny. Like we wish we started this as early as you. That's one. Two, can you imagine where they're gonna be when they're our age? After 12 more years of practice? That's what I'm saying. Yeah, man, you took the work right off. They're gonna be so far ahead of where we are. So far. And just financially and all the life experiences from practicing medicine. So like they're like, yeah, okay. They're young kids now with whatever, but they're gonna be medical providers. They're gonna learn and they're gonna learn fast. So like, guys, we're not beating up on you. Like we're jealous and you guys are gonna be so much better than us, you know, as providers and as humans by the time you get to our age, just because of the time. Right. All extra years of practice. So promise, we're not beating up on you. We're just jealous. Absolutely. I co-signed everything you said, bro. Everybody, all the younger applicants out there, like we are not beating up. I am so jealous of all of you guys. Literally. There's a girl in my class. She's like 24, bro. She has the maturation of a 34 year old. Like I can talk to somebody. You know, you can tell somebody that they're like a little younger. You can just tell. Talking to her, like she just so down to earth and chill and I tell her all the time, I have such admiration for you. Like a thousand percent. And she was like, oh, Jane. I said, no, I'm serious. Like I wish I was you. I said, but there was no way I could have been you. Cause when I was your age, I just cared about partying, frat house, going down town, all that stuff. I said, I was filled out of PA school in one week. If I was to start it. If I were to start it when I was 20. Yeah. Seriously. I just didn't have the discipline when I said, I admire you. I said, girl, you gonna be 25 with a job making bank and then start in your career. Seriously. I mean, and then like you said, you look at 10 years from now, you're only 35, they'll be my age. Well, 10 years of experience. So. Oh yeah. She'll have like four houses. Tip my house. She'll be filling out for the young applicants, for sure. For sure. Yeah. A hundred percent. But yeah. I know we kind of took a lot of loopy side. We're good. And whatnot. But I think we covered the diversity thing pretty good. We definitely covered advice to students. Pretty good. Yeah. What else do you want to say into the world? Cause I mean, anything else you really want to feel like you want to put out there that you haven't? I think that's it, bro. Just telling everybody, like, if you really want it, you can make it happen. Like, you know, that's the bottom line. I know that's easier said than done, believe me. Nobody more than me knows it's easier said than done. But if you really want something, don't give up, just keep grinding at it. Keep grinding. Like I said, it's not easy. And like I said, I always think about what, if I would've given up. Like, where would I be if I would've given up? Where would I be now? The first time. Right. The first time. If I just would've said, well, let me just try nursing. Yeah, I probably could've got through, but would I be really happy? Would I be really happy? You wouldn't be as proud of yourself. Right. I wouldn't be proud of myself. I didn't want to look, my biggest regret, I didn't want to look back and say, what if I just would've just gave it one more shot? And so now, you know, especially like, you know, I'll tell people this, you know, my pen and ceremony was like, amazing. Like I'm looking around and auditorium, or the area and like, see, like code my parents there, my mom and dad, they're so proud. And I had to give a speech, just class representatives, the president and the class representatives had to give speech. And so it was, I was just enamored, bro. Like seeing my name up on the projector and everybody else. And it kind of made all those long nights of staying up to three, four, five or no more and studying and worth it, you know. I was like, the journey's not over. You know, there's still work to be done. But I said, I, I'm so glad I didn't give up. I said, this is, this is what it was for, you know, to the people that counted me out that said all washed up. It's just like, now all I hear is congratulations. And I'm so proud of you. That's the funny thing. I did want to tell you, I don't hear it. I mean, maybe you should try something else or it wasn't meant for you. I don't hear that at all. All of you did it. I'm so proud of you. You're a true inspiration. And it's all because I didn't give up. It's all because I didn't give up. So I tell my all the preperees, you know, if you want it, go after it. You know, no matter how many times it takes to apply, always try to strengthen and improve your application. So I applied twice. I can say that every school I interviewed with, I was accepted to, and I was three schools. But if you want it, go after it. You know, don't let anybody deteriorate or whatnot. And age doesn't matter. I mean, look at me. I'm not even the oldest in my class. We ain't the girls. She's 44 years old, three kids, and Mary. If you want it, go after it. Yeah, don't let anything hold you back. Yes, sir. I had one guy, army guy, actually getting out of the army. He's trying to decide, should I go to business school or should I go to PA school? And I was like, bro, if you're even like remotely considering anything besides medicine, don't do medicine. Like there's easier ways to make money. But if you happen to be one of those people where you're like, there's nothing else I could do, listen to that because there's nothing else you can do. It's gonna come back around in 10 more years and you're gonna be like, all right, now I'm ready. Let's just do it now. If you know now, just go. Do what you gotta do. Get a master's. Do what you gotta do. Don't sleep, work your butt off. You got it. You can do it. You can do it. Yes, sir. All right. We're gonna end this recording now. Man, James, thank you for like sharing your whole story. Thank you for just like this incredible story of yours that's so motivational. Cause I mean, I thought I went through some stuff to get in, you literally got into a program, had to start all over again and then some and here you are, you know, getting pretty dang close to graduating. So I mean like hats off to you, so, so motivational. Appreciate it, my bro. I appreciate you having me, old man and allowing me to share my story and wisdom and experience with others. So I appreciate you, brother. No, literally, this is gonna help so many people. And I'm gonna put your email in the video notes. If anyone wants to email James, if he gets inundated, I'll take it out. So his email in the notes might be a perennial thing. It might come and go as he has time. And I'll text you my Instagram, my screen name. So if they wanna find me on there, I wouldn't know that's fine too. I'm an open book, bro. Yeah, we'll do both. I might even paste it like below your name just so people are like, oh, he said this and now I wanna show you my message. Like I already see it on the screen. I'll just do that. Let's do it. Sounds good. Yeah, thank you very much for helping all the future PAs out there. I'm gonna end the recording right here and actually hang out after I click end because I wanna talk to you about North Carolina. Okay. I'll put ending recording now. See y'all, I hope you guys enjoyed that. Comment below, please like, share and subscribe. Buy the book, the end, bye.